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Gauntlet101010 wrote:
Stuff Guantlet101010 wrote
Gauntlet101010 wrote:RodimalToyota wrote:Hasbro can't walk into court and say "our Megatron from 20 years, that we will never sell again, looks like this Hegemon fellow who isn't available anywhere but some e-tailers"
But that's my sticking point, right there! G1 Megatron isn't from 20 years ago. Not really. He's been reissued several times by Takara (most recently by DotM, and let's not get too hung up over the differences between Hasbro and Takara) and they've made the mini G1 Megs as part of the Universe line.
Plus G1 toons have been on the air relatively recently, and the DVDs of the episodes are still readily available. In fact that very model is used as recently as the new TF Regeneration one comics. So, unlike background characters from TFTM, the image of G1 Megatron is still widly associated with the franchise.
But you say that, despite the very wide use of the G1 Megatron image ... Hegemon is still in the clear because his alt. mode is sufficiently different and because they don't have a physical product *exactly* resembling this?
RodimalToyota wrote:Gauntlet101010 wrote:
Stuff Guantlet101010 wrote
sorry, wanted to condense that lol
You've got more emotion in that then anything else. While Hasbro "owns" Transformers.. there was many people involved, 99% of which are now gone, and receive no money for previous designs, or stories.
Also, most 3P stuff is not bootlegs, or KO's, they are basically shout outs to the original designs which we all love, that Hasbro won't do, because it's seen as out dated or not profitable to the average consumer.
3P takes nothing from Hasbro, if it did, Hasbro would shut them down.
So your argument for Pro-Hasbro, actually helps out pro-3P.
I'm not buying these guys because they are better, then Hasbro, or superior, or cheaper, or more available.. that's what would get Hasbro involved. I'm buying them because they fit a small niche market, of super-hyper-deluxe fans that hyperventilate over G1 style designs, and have lots of money to spend if you massage their G1 organ, that Global Hasbro doesn't see as profitable. That are too expensive, to exclusive, and too small of a run to bother with. You can love Hasbro all you want, but all they want is your money, like a Horny teen on Prom night, all they want is your stash. While they work hard to keep the brand fresh and new, they may throw in some vintage styled designs now and then. However keep in mind, no matter how big the designers are fans, the penny monkeys will be there to say "no" unless research says it will sell well.
RodimalToyota wrote:Gauntlet101010 wrote:RodimalToyota wrote:Hasbro can't walk into court and say "our Megatron from 20 years, that we will never sell again, looks like this Hegemon fellow who isn't available anywhere but some e-tailers"
But that's my sticking point, right there! G1 Megatron isn't from 20 years ago. Not really. He's been reissued several times by Takara (most recently by DotM, and let's not get too hung up over the differences between Hasbro and Takara) and they've made the mini G1 Megs as part of the Universe line.
Plus G1 toons have been on the air relatively recently, and the DVDs of the episodes are still readily available. In fact that very model is used as recently as the new TF Regeneration one comics. So, unlike background characters from TFTM, the image of G1 Megatron is still widly associated with the franchise.
But you say that, despite the very wide use of the G1 Megatron image ... Hegemon is still in the clear because his alt. mode is sufficiently different and because they don't have a physical product *exactly* resembling this?
It just has to do with wether they are still paying for the TM and C for the "Gun" mode version of the Megatron character. If you're not going to be using it in a mass media format, you aren't gonna pay the money it cost's to register something your not gonna use, unless your Apple and it means 100's of millions. Hasbro is a big TOY company, but it's still has a relatively small yearly income, and profit/debt ratio. (stock nerd talk)
Rated X wrote:However I honestly dont understand the position of "Pro-Hasbro" Transformers fans who are "Anti-Third party". I know you are not one of them, however maybe you can shed some light on what makes them tick...
Gauntlet101010 wrote:Well ... I'll take your word on it. I suppose I'm not fully convinced, at least for products like the IT line and Hegemon, but there's no concrete points I can make and it's more of a general feeling that it can't possibly true, so you may very well have the right of it.
xyl360 wrote:I'm insulted by it, and I love 3rd party toys.
It's not about money or corporate CEO's and to use your analogy of a sports team or college, 3rd parties and KO's alike would be like a bunch of guys dressing up as players from Penn State but aren't actually from Penn State, just a bunch of guys pretending to be.
That's the difference between 3rd parties and actual licensed products. It doesn't matter how much they homage/look like something, unless they are actual licensed "Transformers" products, they are NOT in reality Transformers, they are transforming robot toys (likely inspired by) the Transformers franchise.
That's not a bad thing either in my opinion. Thanks to both 3rd party and KO companies I've been able to add pieces and characters to my shelves that the actual Transformers franchise (be it Hasbro, Takara or anyone who got a legal license for their characters/franchise) would have never created or provided to fans like me who wanted them.
Purple seeker? Hasbro: "NO!" Takara: "NO!" CHMS: "Sure, here you go!"
Same with the third party Devastators and everything else. I look at them on my shelf as part of MY Transformers collection, but I am NOT delusional enough not to realize that in reality they are not actual Transformers. They are transforming robot toys that happily resemble characters from the official Transformers franchise which I'm a fan of.
I am not anti-3rd party, or even anti-KO (I did buy a KO Henkei Wildrider after all), but I also know the difference between what makes something an official piece of branding/licensed product and what makes it a 3rd party, unlicensed homage or knockoff of something else.
What I choose to spend my money on and put on my shelf is my business, but don't assume that all 3rd party fans (such as myself) think like you do, because we don't. And if I were kissing the corporate butt of Has/Tak, then I wouldn't have spent the thousands (yes, I said THOUSANDS) on 3rd party toys and KO's that I have and even more that I plan to in the future.
RodimalToyota wrote:Gauntlet101010 wrote:Well ... I'll take your word on it. I suppose I'm not fully convinced, at least for products like the IT line and Hegemon, but there's no concrete points I can make and it's more of a general feeling that it can't possibly true, so you may very well have the right of it.
Don't take my word for it, or anyone else's, it's all about what "YOU" like.
If you really feel the need, you can research it, that's all I did, but just for the "discussion" of it. In reality, if someone makes, something I want, I'll buy it. If I can buy a legitimate version, I will. If the only way to get it, is to buy a KO, I will. My only allegiance is to my sense of taste, and artistic pleasure in seeing these characters in various forms.
I bought Giant.. Because my options were.. Vintage Block Devy, or Energon..WTF Devy. Giant gave me a better option. If Tak, or Hasbro one day release a MP line of Constructions I will buy it in haste. As I Support them.. when it makes sense, financially, and artistically.
Rated X wrote:xyl360 wrote:I'm insulted by it, and I love 3rd party toys.
It's not about money or corporate CEO's and to use your analogy of a sports team or college, 3rd parties and KO's alike would be like a bunch of guys dressing up as players from Penn State but aren't actually from Penn State, just a bunch of guys pretending to be.
That's the difference between 3rd parties and actual licensed products. It doesn't matter how much they homage/look like something, unless they are actual licensed "Transformers" products, they are NOT in reality Transformers, they are transforming robot toys (likely inspired by) the Transformers franchise.
That's not a bad thing either in my opinion. Thanks to both 3rd party and KO companies I've been able to add pieces and characters to my shelves that the actual Transformers franchise (be it Hasbro, Takara or anyone who got a legal license for their characters/franchise) would have never created or provided to fans like me who wanted them.
Purple seeker? Hasbro: "NO!" Takara: "NO!" CHMS: "Sure, here you go!"
Same with the third party Devastators and everything else. I look at them on my shelf as part of MY Transformers collection, but I am NOT delusional enough not to realize that in reality they are not actual Transformers. They are transforming robot toys that happily resemble characters from the official Transformers franchise which I'm a fan of.
I am not anti-3rd party, or even anti-KO (I did buy a KO Henkei Wildrider after all), but I also know the difference between what makes something an official piece of branding/licensed product and what makes it a 3rd party, unlicensed homage or knockoff of something else.
What I choose to spend my money on and put on my shelf is my business, but don't assume that all 3rd party fans (such as myself) think like you do, because we don't. And if I were kissing the corporate butt of Has/Tak, then I wouldn't have spent the thousands (yes, I said THOUSANDS) on 3rd party toys and KO's that I have and even more that I plan to in the future.
I understand where your coming from. You explained your stance very well, but didnt really expand on why my stance would offend you. For me personally, if it looks like a duck and it quacks, it a duck. As Transformers fans, we need not worry about which pot of molten plastic our figure came from. A Hasbro pot ? A CHMS pot ? Who cares ? (As long as the quality is on par with the original mold) If we as Transformers fans start worrying about Hasbro's corporate interests, then we might as well be a bunch of My Little Pony fans, Jabronies, or what ever it is they call themselves...
Im not delusional when I call my CHMS Rainmakers Transformers. The neon green one is more Acid Storm than Hasbro's camo version will ever be. If I put them both together and showed them to someone who had seen the cartoon but not toy line, they would probally think the CHMS version was official and the camo version was some kind of a wacky Chinese KO. (like all those Ruinitron camo KO's)
Being a Transformers fan comes from the heart. It shouldnt revolve around what Hasbro currently thinks we should support or not support. Hasbro says we (collectors) dont need Rainmakers or Battle Tankers in our lives. Hasbro says we (as collectors) need TF Prime and FOC in our lives and we should support where theyre taking the brand. As a G1 purist, I dont. So I guess Im delusional for saying Delicate Warrior is more of a "transformer" than TF Prime blue Arcee will ever be ? Lets just forget about G1 all together and accept how the NEW Hasbro keeps butchering the Transformers universe. Maybe next year Bumblebee will be red and hell be a motorcycle too. But since it will be an "official" decision, we (as collectors) should all get with the program.
Thats where Im at my friend. If it's considered a rant, then so be it. But I was never trying to offend you or any of the regular 3rd party supporters that post on these threads.
njb902 wrote:I have a question to ask before jumping in here. Not all countries fallow "international law" so by what basis are we judging this on?
Mekatron wrote:KO's cross legal boundaries, 3rd Parties cross moral boundaries... simple as that. I'm not really understanding why there's even a debate going on here...
Curious... I've been wondering lately, are there OTHER popular USA toy lines that have a huge 3rd-party following like Transformers, or is this all fairly unique?
Mkall wrote:Gauntlet101010 wrote:I can see his point and it explains a lot.
But I do wonder about products like IT's Quints. They're obviously based on the Quintessons. Is the lack of an official toy really preventing Hasbro from suing them? Are the Quints, either Arcee, or Hegemeon really 15% different than Hasbro's designs?
I'm not sure either. Based on the quote above, a case could be made that since the toys mimic nearly exactly animation designs that they could be confused for official Hasbro designs and thus could possibly be counted as IP theft. However I'm just grasping at straws since I'm neither a lawyer or even remotely educated on toy law.
Midnight_Fox wrote:Mkall wrote:Gauntlet101010 wrote:I can see his point and it explains a lot.
But I do wonder about products like IT's Quints. They're obviously based on the Quintessons. Is the lack of an official toy really preventing Hasbro from suing them? Are the Quints, either Arcee, or Hegemeon really 15% different than Hasbro's designs?
I'm not sure either. Based on the quote above, a case could be made that since the toys mimic nearly exactly animation designs that they could be confused for official Hasbro designs and thus could possibly be counted as IP theft. However I'm just grasping at straws since I'm neither a lawyer or even remotely educated on toy law.
I suggest looking at the "Games Workshop vs Chapterhouse Studio" case currently waiting to go to court in December, as that's the exact issue at hand: GW sued CHS for copyright infringement for models based on GW's art and aesthetics. Just ignore anyone saying they sued because CHS' website uses GW trademark terms to advertise compatibility, which is legal according to United States fair use laws.
It's very relevant to the TF 3rd party debate.
Gauntlet101010 wrote:I still have a hard time believing that Hasbro/Takara can't do anything against the Impossible Toys line. I mean, I can see it being not worth their while, but being powerless? Those things are almost exactly like the animation model.
DevastaTTor wrote:Why don't they go after 3Ps? Because it's not worth the effort. Even Fansproject, as good as they are, probably doesn't have millions or even thousands of dollars to go after. In the end, it's Hasbro/TT spending a bunch of money to basically tell someone "don't do that". And with so many 3Ps out there now, they'd cut on head off the third party dragon and two more would grow out in its place. As long as 3Ps aren't in the general consumer retail space, they'll just turn a blind eye.
DevastaTTor wrote:Midnight_Fox wrote:Mkall wrote:Gauntlet101010 wrote:I can see his point and it explains a lot.
But I do wonder about products like IT's Quints. They're obviously based on the Quintessons. Is the lack of an official toy really preventing Hasbro from suing them? Are the Quints, either Arcee, or Hegemeon really 15% different than Hasbro's designs?
I'm not sure either. Based on the quote above, a case could be made that since the toys mimic nearly exactly animation designs that they could be confused for official Hasbro designs and thus could possibly be counted as IP theft. However I'm just grasping at straws since I'm neither a lawyer or even remotely educated on toy law.
I suggest looking at the "Games Workshop vs Chapterhouse Studio" case currently waiting to go to court in December, as that's the exact issue at hand: GW sued CHS for copyright infringement for models based on GW's art and aesthetics. Just ignore anyone saying they sued because CHS' website uses GW trademark terms to advertise compatibility, which is legal according to United States fair use laws.
It's very relevant to the TF 3rd party debate.
Definitely relavent and will be interesting to see how it plays out. However GW is small time compared to Hasbro so they have more at stake protecting their brands. Not to mention, collectors are the main consumers of their products so CHS was competing in the same market space.
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