The Energon Pub

It's interesting, among all this talk of triple changers, that no one is really bringing up G1 Springer.

Burn, does he count in your "only the originals" category? He is labeled as such on his box.

Cobotron wrote:Burn, does he count in your "only the originals" category? He is labeled as such on his box.

I said the original 3 Cons (Astrotrain, Blitzwing and Octane) and the 3 Bots (Springer, Broadside and Sandstorm).

Thank you for proving that you don't read my posts properly.
-edit-

Overcracker wrote:G1 ApeFace

Can he be considered a Triple changer though? As you said ...

2. All 3 modes need to function on their own. They can't require a secondary figure to function

His robot mode requires a secondary figure. So that essentially rules out all triple changing Headmasters.

Burn wrote:Thank you for proving that you don't read my posts properly.

Any time!

I think combiners should be the #1 gimmick, as it's the 1 that is used most often and has been a part of nearly all the toy lines. The -master components are also pretty cool, I would put them 2nd, followed by the Triplechangers. And I wouldn't consider Prime's light-up Matrix a gimmick, because it's and accessory and it goes to 1 single bot, MP Prime. You don't see any other figures (not even MPs) with that feature.
Those feet are mistransformed.

G1 Hot Spot, Silverbolt and Motormaster all had base modes.

If the new Titans Returns Leader Class figures are going to be considered Triple-changers then so should they.

I should think Base modes rule out "Triple Changer" status regardless of labelling.

It has to be one ground (or sea) vehicle, one air (or space) vehicle and a robot.

Burn wrote:

2. All 3 modes need to function on their own. They can't require a secondary figure to function

His robot mode requires a secondary figure. So that essentially rules out all triple changing Headmasters.

But its not a figure you have to buy extra and its not like its a robot independent of the other robot either, since its his head (meaning you cant have both in robot mode). I see them more like triplechangers which have an additional gimick related to their robot head.

Rodimus Prime wrote:And I wouldn't consider Prime's light-up Matrix a gimmick, because it's and accessory and it goes to 1 single bot, MP Prime.

Its just a light up feature, and it is integrated within the body of prime. And other MPs have light up features too, like MP Shockwave. But Prime's is the coolest to me

Also, to the questions about base modes, Hasbro has officially labeled them as triple-changers, thanks to Titans Return. You will see the leaders still have the triple-changer logo at the corner of the box, which is also found on the voyager triplechangers. Just as with Prime Dreadwing being a seeker, we dont have to agree with that, but it is official labeling.

william-james88 wrote:Thanks Overcracker, I will use this. Now here are some examples I wanted to run by you:

Energon Shockwave: Tank, Satelite, Robot
G1 Scorponok: Scorpion, Robot, Base

All have dedicated parts and look different one to the next. For me, they count and they seem to count regarding your criteria but wanted to se your thoughts on them.

Energon Shockwave is a little iffy to me. I mean all you're doing is opening some panels and spreading his legs really. While he does have 3 modes according to his box, and I do love and own him, nah his satellite mode is just not different enough. And it exposes his head.

Scorponok works. He would be a triple changer.

Burn wrote:

Overcracker wrote:G1 ApeFace

Can he be considered a Triple changer though? As you said ...

2. All 3 modes need to function on their own. They can't require a secondary figure to function

His robot mode requires a secondary figure. So that essentially rules out all triple changing Headmasters.

william-james88 wrote:But its not a figure you have to buy extra and its not like its a robot independent of the other robot either, since its his head (meaning you cant have both in robot mode). I see them more like triplechangers which have an additional gimick related to their robot head.

Exactly.

I was leaning more towards requiring a secondary figure you need to go out and buy. With Ape Face and the triple changing headmasters all 3 modes can be achieved and used without buying anything else.

Overcracker wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Thanks Overcracker, I will use this. Now here are some examples I wanted to run by you:

Energon Shockwave: Tank, Satelite, Robot
G1 Scorponok: Scorpion, Robot, Base

All have dedicated parts and look different one to the next. For me, they count and they seem to count regarding your criteria but wanted to se your thoughts on them.

Energon Shockwave is a little iffy to me. I mean all you're doing is opening some panels and spreading his legs really. While he does have 3 modes according to his box, and I do love and own him, nah his satellite mode is just not different enough. And it exposes his head.

Scorponok works. He would be a triple changer.

Tanks for getting back to me. And yeah I know Shockwave is iffy. But to be fair, his vehicle mode looks as much like his robot mode as his satellite mode looks like his vehicle mode. All 3 modes reuse a lot of similar parts and are just configured differently. What I mean is I dont see the satellite mode being any less of an alt mode than the vehicle mode. But that doesnt mean its a great triple changer. I do love him though. I guess he would be a great toy who has 3 modes more so than a great triplechanger At least the satelite mode looks better than Movie Sounwave's

I know Headmasters were mentioned but how about Targetmasters (as well as robots turning into weapons in general)? Having little weapon buddies is just neat, especially when they have 5mm grips. One of the things I think PCC did really well was the Minicons. Chopster makes a great axe, and Throttler turns into a goddamned drill!

william-james88 wrote:... I do love him though. I guess he would be a great toy who has 3 modes more so than a great triplechanger At least the satelite mode looks better than Movie Sounwave's

Unfortunately... that is correct.

Never did get Movie satellite soundwave though.

william-james88 wrote:Also, to the questions about base modes, Hasbro has officially labeled them as triple-changers, thanks to Titans Return. You will see the leaders still have the triple-changer logo at the corner of the box, which is also found on the voyager triplechangers. Just as with Prime Dreadwing being a seeker, we dont have to agree with that, but it is official labeling.

If it was just a matter of listing anything officially labelled as a triple changer, this whole discussion would be a moot point. The discussion exists to override the official labels.

There's already a page on the Transformers wikis for "Transformers with three modes", the question is what is actually worthy of being considered a "triple changer".

All four of the original scramble city gestalt torsos have some kind of third mode base mode and COULD be considered triple changers, however I should think Transformers with weird base modes would at best be considered a subset of "triple changer" since it would seem to be a separate gimmick in its own right.

If you're sticking to labelling then Perceptor is NOT a triple-changer and shouldn't even be considered.

If you're going for "anything with a third mode" then that could get messy and it would be best to separate them into sub groups.

Combiner Wars Power Glide is a Triple Changer. However, his gun mode isn't the equal to his jet mode, and could constitute a separate gimmick to being a true "triple changer".

For Astrotrain, Blitzwing, Springer etc., each of their vehicle modes are equally valid, for Titans Return Blaster however, his primary transformation is a boom-box and the base is just an extra gimmick.

I've wasted enough time on TheTVBD to know these kind of things are never cut and dry, the point is creating a ruleset for what is and isn't and determining how to handle it all.

Overcracker wrote:

Burn wrote:

Overcracker wrote:G1 ApeFace

Can he be considered a Triple changer though? As you said ...

2. All 3 modes need to function on their own. They can't require a secondary figure to function

His robot mode requires a secondary figure. So that essentially rules out all triple changing Headmasters.

william-james88 wrote:But its not a figure you have to buy extra and its not like its a robot independent of the other robot either, since its his head (meaning you cant have both in robot mode). I see them more like triplechangers which have an additional gimick related to their robot head.

Exactly.

I was leaning more towards requiring a secondary figure you need to go out and buy. With Ape Face and the triple changing headmasters all 3 modes can be achieved and used without buying anything else.

Sorry guys but I've still got to disagree.

If you're talking fresh out of the box, then sure. But if you lose that head, or heck, if the head were to be destroyed in fiction, then the robot mode simply cannot be formed.

The only way to form the robot mode is with a secondary figure. Without it, it's just a tower with arms.

Burn wrote:If you're talking fresh out of the box, then sure. But if you lose that head, or heck, if the head were to be destroyed in fiction, then the robot mode simply cannot be formed.

The only way to form the robot mode is with a secondary figure. Without it, it's just a tower with arms.

People have lost ball jointed heads too. I found a bunch of headless TFs over the years in thrift shops that werent headmasters. I dont think losing a head is what stops somethign from being a triple changer.

william-james88 wrote:

Burn wrote:If you're talking fresh out of the box, then sure. But if you lose that head, or heck, if the head were to be destroyed in fiction, then the robot mode simply cannot be formed.

The only way to form the robot mode is with a secondary figure. Without it, it's just a tower with arms.

People have lost ball jointed heads too. I found a bunch of headless TFs over the years in thrift shops that werent headmasters. I dont think losing a head is what stops somethign from being a triple changer.

Argue all you want, I'm not changing my view on this. I'm okay to agree to disagree.

Burn wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Burn wrote:If you're talking fresh out of the box, then sure. But if you lose that head, or heck, if the head were to be destroyed in fiction, then the robot mode simply cannot be formed.

The only way to form the robot mode is with a secondary figure. Without it, it's just a tower with arms.

People have lost ball jointed heads too. I found a bunch of headless TFs over the years in thrift shops that werent headmasters. I dont think losing a head is what stops somethign from being a triple changer.

Argue all you want, I'm not changing my view on this. I'm okay to agree to disagree.

I am more than fine with that.

Told you from the start when you asked the question that you must like worms, considering the can you opened.

Burn wrote:Told you from the start when you asked the question that you must like worms, considering the can you opened.

But thats what its all about right These lists are just ways for us to explore different parts of the history of these beautiful toys. I am realizing now that there has been a ton of variety and that, to me, we have goten to the point where pin pointing where soemthign belongs is more tough than ever. But thats fun, it means we are getting more from these toys.

So what about Punch/Counterpunch and Doubledealer, are they Triple Changers? They both have three forms, even if Punch has two bot modes and Doubledealer's bird mode is his Decepticon mode. DD's Generations figure certainly fits as a Triple Changer (still don't understand why the didn't paint a bird head on the jet instead of a shark...), but I guess the G1 figures more or less count as well even though they only have one traditional "alt mode".

Emerje

william-james88 wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:And I wouldn't consider Prime's light-up Matrix a gimmick, because it's and accessory and it goes to 1 single bot, MP Prime.

Its just a light up feature, and it is integrated within the body of prime. And other MPs have light up features too, like MP Shockwave. But Prime's is the coolest to me

Ah, now I get it. The emphasis is on the light-up feature, not the Matrix. Then yeah, the light-up feature is a cool gimmick by itself. But the Matrix is overrated.

Combining has always been my favorite gimmick. And if you think about it, some other gimmicks are actually a form of combining, like Headmasters and even cassettes and players if you really stretch the idea of what counts as combining.


I also like the faction changer gimmick, whether its Punch/Counterpunch with different robot modes or Sideways with different faction brands popping up depending on which minicon forms his head, it just says "cool" to me.


Posting this has put an idea in my head. We need a faction changing combiner!

Emerje wrote:So what about Punch/Counterpunch and Doubledealer, are they Triple Changers? They both have three forms, even if Punch has two bot modes and Doubledealer's bird mode is his Decepticon mode. DD's Generations figure certainly fits as a Triple Changer (still don't understand why the didn't paint a bird head on the jet instead of a shark...), but I guess the G1 figures more or less count as well even though they only have one traditional "alt mode".

Emerje

I always thought triple changing meant 2 forms of alt modes, but I could be wrong.

william-james88 wrote:

Emerje wrote:So what about Punch/Counterpunch and Doubledealer, are they Triple Changers? They both have three forms, even if Punch has two bot modes and Doubledealer's bird mode is his Decepticon mode. DD's Generations figure certainly fits as a Triple Changer (still don't understand why the didn't paint a bird head on the jet instead of a shark...), but I guess the G1 figures more or less count as well even though they only have one traditional "alt mode".

Emerje

I always thought triple changing meant 2 forms of alt modes, but I could be wrong.

The "triple" includes the bot mode. If one bot mode counts then why not two? And in some stories Counterpunch is as much a disguise for Punch as his car mode is, making it basically a robot alt mode.

Meanwhile on Doubledealer just how should be classify an animal mode? Some figures, like the entirety of Beast Wars, use animals as the alt mode, but characters like Laserbeak or Sky Lynx use the animal mode as their robot mode. Then there are characters like the Beast Wars Mutants that only have animal modes and no bot mode. Should we always count animal modes as alt modes even if there is no alt mode or should there be exceptions made, especially on a figure that recognizes the animal mode as the Decepticon mode and the bot mode as the Autobot mode? Should we call DD a Triple Changer that just happened to assign Decepticon faction symbols and a Powermaster to his bird mode? There are a lot of gray areas with these two.

Emerje

Rather than asking "Is Punch a triple changer?", maybe you should be asking, "Is Punch's gimmick the same gimmick as seen in Springer and Astrotrain?" and "should they be classified as the same thing?"

"Does Punch's gimmick have it's own name, and if it does, does that name belong in a separate group, a sub-group or should it simply be discarded in preference for 'triple changer'?"

ndjamena wrote:Rather than asking "Is Punch a triple changer?", maybe you should be asking, "Is Punch's gimmick the same gimmick as seen in Springer and Astrotrain?" and "should they be classified as the same thing?"

"Does Punch's gimmick have it's own name, and if it does, does that name belong in a separate group, a sub-group or should it simply be discarded in preference for 'triple changer'?"

Emerje wrote:

william-james88 wrote:I always thought triple changing meant 2 forms of alt modes, but I could be wrong.

The "triple" includes the bot mode. If one bot mode counts then why not two? And in some stories Counterpunch is as much a disguise for Punch as his car mode is, making it basically a robot alt mode.

That's basically what we've been asking from the start. Technically there isn't a name for what Punch/Counterpunch is. His classification is Double Spy, but that's so close to his function of double agent that may not be a description of his ability just his role (Doubledealer is a Powermaster Mercenary with the function of mercenary, Astrotrain is a military transport). It's hard to categorize someone when they're on of a kind.

Emerje

So he's a Doublespy.

Is that a subset of Triple Changer or a completely different gimmick?

There's no right answer, other than doing what's practical. There are probably worse examples of "third mode" transformers that have questionable triple changer status than anything we've found so far.

Wikipedia has a list of G1 characters who have been mentioned as being a "triple changer".

Scorponok is mentioned, Fortress Maximus isn't. Despite the fact that they both have two alt modes. Metroplex and Tripticon have two alt modes too.

And this is why I don't think anything with a base should be considered a triple changer.

Like many large Generation 1 Transformers, Scorponok has a base mode

Everything that's a "base" also has a third alt mode as well and all of the four original scramble city torso's can plug into Metroplex/Tripticon, which suggests the "bases" should be in a class of their own, or at least a subset.

As far as I can tell, the Titans Return Blaster/Soundwave etc. are simply updated versions of the Scramble City torsos, designed to plug into Fortress Maximus/Tripticon...

I'd accept them as a subsets, but not as equals to the original triple changers. But... they're not actually made to be neatly categorised so... if we're trying to get them to do something they're not supposed to, that's our fault.