Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

Sowndwave76 wrote:Then why are Wheeljack and Jazz included? Past re-packs show Hastak favors having Wheeljack on pegs. Idk why. I also can't put reason as to why Jazz is included; imo it seems that mold has been used enough.
I would've picked Sideswipe, Bluestreak, or Red Alert since those were past exclusives.
But if these are made of all solid plastic, this set is just all the better.

Solid plastic would be my guess, because otherwise (and maybe even still) I'd rather a non-dead Prowl be in that pack, although I know that's not how they think.

sol magnus wrote:

Sowndwave76 wrote:Then why are Wheeljack and Jazz included? Past re-packs show Hastak favors having Wheeljack on pegs. Idk why. I also can't put reason as to why Jazz is included; imo it seems that mold has been used enough.
I would've picked Sideswipe, Bluestreak, or Red Alert since those were past exclusives.
But if these are made of all solid plastic, this set is just all the better.

Solid plastic would be my guess, because otherwise (and maybe even still) I'd rather a non-dead Prowl be in that pack, although I know that's not how they think.

I think no matter which figures would have been included they would have solid plastic.
My guess of the inclusion of Wheeljack and Jazz have to do with someone or some people at Hastak favoring those characters. Of course, there's also a chance that they have the numbers (data) that show those characters have sold well enough in the past to make the cut.

william-james88 wrote:There's been a lot of grief over Earth Mode Hound appearing in a multipack rather than an individual release but it turns out that he was originally cancelled. Similarly to when Walmart chose to back out on wanting toy deco voysger Hot Rod in their Velocitron line, Target backed out on wanting more individual deluxes in their Buzzworthy line.

So yes, the reason why you initially saw renders but then heard no news is because Hatchet and Hound were canceled. And since Hasbro already had all their other lines planned out, there was no place to release these toys. However, Hasbro has since found a way to bring us Hound (or at least this is what is assumed) in the upcoming Autobot multipack. So while Hatchet is still cancelled, the toy may resurface through another release.

Looking at this, while the multipack release may be annoying, this is a second resort and it's basically either that or no release. Also, the original Buzzworthy release would have of course been exclusive while this Gen Selects multipack is not said to be so yet (most Gen Selects releases have not been exclusive and can easily be bought from online retsilers). So you tell us which is your preferred option in light of these cancelled plans.

If you are curious as to why Target backed out, JTprime17 states that it's due to poor sales of the previous deluxes in the Buzzworthy line, which are currently being found at Ollie's and other liquidators. So if any fans were looking for proof as to the downside of hoping for clearance and liquidation finds, well the cancelation of these individual releases is a clear consequence.

JTprime17 wrote:Target backed out due to poor sales of the first deluxe wave. It is what it is.

What figures were in the first wave? I remember some figures selling better, like SS86 Cliffjumper and Kup, than others, blue Bluestreak comes to mind.

chuckdawg1999 wrote:What figures were in the first wave? I remember some figures selling better, like SS86 Cliffjumper and Kup, than others, blue Bluestreak comes to mind.

Bluestreak had a "wave" on its own.

chuckdawg1999 wrote:What figures were in the first wave? I remember some figures selling better, like SS86 Cliffjumper and Kup, than others, blue Bluestreak comes to mind.

Though as others have said, it doesn't make much sense.

Could have been the first wave of the year, instead? As in the first wave of 2023?

I remember those selling well, obviously some better than others. I think the last few waves; blue Bluestreak, Terrorsaur, the movie repaints, didn't move as well. Another thing I noticed is the repaints/repacks of older kid friendly figures dropped off too. Those surprisingly sold well.

Looking at the posts made by JTPrime after that initial "wave 1 sold bad so Target backed out" comment: the wave 1 in question was the Cliffjumper/Kup/B-127 wave, specifically. Apparently the wave that was repacks of 3 Bees & Shatter had different enough Hasbro parent codes for that assortment compared to the CJ/Kup/Bee wave that both are internally considered Wave 1's completely independently of each other, and the Hatchet/Hound/"Bee 2" wave would have been Wave 2 for specifically the same assortment as CJ/Kup/Bee.

The main flaw of that line is that too many of these reissues were too soon in a far too great quantity, while some others were barely made.

Especially for that damn SS86 Sergeant Kup, whose presence was akin to roaches. It was everywhere and there was so many, it was as if it was reproducing itself on the shelves.

Emerje wrote:

Bounti76 wrote:Hound was canceled because of poor sales of the first wave of Deluxes? Yet we got Tow-Line and a Ratchet redeco after that? That doesn't quite make sense.

I feel like something didn't quite get conveyed right. Instead of first wave maybe they really meant previous wave?

The good 'ol eye test says it's blue Bluestreak's fault.

Edit: I should have kept reading

Nemesis Primal wrote:Looking at the posts made by JTPrime after that initial "wave 1 sold bad so Target backed out" comment: the wave 1 in question was the Cliffjumper/Kup/B-127 wave, specifically. Apparently the wave that was repacks of 3 Bees & Shatter had different enough Hasbro parent codes for that assortment compared to the CJ/Kup/Bee wave that both are internally considered Wave 1's completely independently of each other, and the Hatchet/Hound/"Bee 2" wave would have been Wave 2 for specifically the same assortment as CJ/Kup/Bee.

This sounds like Target tripping over themselves more than anything. The Cliffjumper was very difficult to find and B127 seemed to move ok, at least. Kup sat around a bit, but at least anecdotally, he didn't sit around that long. This reeks of an internal distribution (or POG execution, timing, etc) kerfuffle that Target themselves misinterpreted.

We're over-analyzing this from the hobbyist perspective. The line was clearly overproduced relative to demand, and that's not a consequence of specific figures or anything like that. The last few years have had a ton of disruption in the toy industry. During the pandemic, there were big upswings in demand alongside reduced supply from distribution issues. Even after the supply chain normalized, demand was still high, and the industry acted like this was the new normal and overcompensated. As trends shifted back, a lot of retailers wound up with too much stock.

This isn't specific to Target, either: look what happened with the Velocitron subline, which also had a cancellation after a render reveal -- in that case, even after it was announced! As with BB, large quantities of Walmart exclusive Generations product eventually had to get unloaded to discount retailers. And this isn't exclusive to Transformers either, as a trip to those stores will show. There's no mystery hear to solve.

I don't mean this aggressively, but I really think people need to be more careful about using "shelf-warming" as a broad term that always applies for everyone; it truly depends on the area your in. Neither Origins Bee nor Origins Jazz "shelf-warmed" in my area... In fact, I've never seen Jazz at any of the three Targets I've regularly checked for TF.

I said this in the Selects thread; Both Sunstreaker and Trailbreaker are a part of this 5-pack because Hastak either knows via their own research, and/or has heard enough from consumers that these two figures were difficult to get ahold of. Then why are Wheeljack and Jazz included? Past re-packs show Hastak favors having Wheeljack on pegs. Idk why. I also can't put reason as to why Jazz is included; imo it seems that mold has been used enough.

My minions haven't seen Origins Jazz anywhere. It's also been taken down from the Target website, so you can't even order it online - even IF they happen to have spare copies in other locations. Neither Trailbreaker nor Sunstreaker ever appeared anywhere we could find them. Same with 86 Jazz. There have been a couple of the Toxitron repaints, but nothing more.

It would seem there are some kinks in the distribution network still. Some locations are being flooded with figures to the point that they become 'shelfwarmers'. If you put 30 copies of a single figure on a shelf in only one store, then of course there will be a high percentage that don't move. That doesn't mean other locations wouldn't jump at the chance to have 10 copies of that figure. I know with large organizations, it can be hard to control. But they should be doing more to ensure a more even distribution across a wider geographic range. Their current model of "flood location X with gazillions of copies", and "locations A-W get nothing" just isn't working.

I'm honestly more annoyed that the multipack is the only way they're putting out the badly-needed Sunstreaker and Trailbreaker reissues. And I'm really hoping that Sunny and Trailbreaker won't be like Happy Meal Cliffjumper from the Buzzworthy line.

As far as the Kup/Cliffjumper/B-127 wave goes, Happy Meal Cliffjumper seemed to shift alright (no accounting for taste/lack of, I guess; that and a lot of people got screwed out of buying ER) but I saw Kup hanging around a faaaaair bit before he shifted. Same for B-127 to a lesser degree. Other Deluxes have also had issues shifting (NEST Ratchet comes to mind).

Of course, it would probably help if Hasbro stopped price-gouging the brand to death.

EDIT: You know, I guess this means I was more-or-less right about why Detritus got a mainline release: to guarantee they got money from the Earth Mode version of the Hound mold. I said that with the Buzzworthy Hound release pending, Hasbro couldn't really count any money from that as theirs yet because Target could always back out. And lo and behold, it turns out that's what had happened.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:I'm honestly more annoyed that the multipack is the only way they're putting out the badly-needed Sunstreaker and Trailbreaker reissues. And I'm really hoping that Sunny and Trailbreaker won't be like Happy Meal Cliffjumper from the Buzzworthy line.

Agreed.

It's also quite mistifying how they manage to shoehorn Wheeljack everywhere, 3 different lines, and now the bundle here but Hound was seemingly impossible to slip into any line Did we really need yet another Wheeljack?

I just gave in and got DK-3 for a trailbreaker stand-in since he was on sale for $12US plus shipping. If I do end up picking this up, I need to figure out what to do with DK-3 now.

Sunstreaker is likely the one and most compelling reason to get this set.

I can just see all the wheeljacks and trailbreakers making there way to Ebay.

Sowndwave76 wrote:Neither Origins Bee nor Origins Jazz "shelf-warmed" in my area... In fact, I've never seen Jazz at any of the three Targets I've regularly checked for TF.

I only ever Saw Bee in stock once, and the store "in stock" website basically confirmed this as after about a week they were no longer orderable for in store pickup. After that I never saw it again.

I never saw Jazz in store, nor the Cliffjumper, Kup redeco. I did see the Bluestreak once.
The only ones that I did see regularly were the Bayformer movie releases.

Knowing what I know about retail, I'd chalk it up to horrible distribution where select stores always get more of an item than another thus affecting sales overall fi they didn't move as quickly as expected. Where as if they had been more equally distributed it would have possibly looked better, though not by much because some bots simply won't do as well as others.

Also, as with Walmart also making a boneheaded move caused Cosmos to be severely under packed. So there is an issue with not quite understanding the contents, it's not like they're buying a case of toasters in that they know exactly what they're getting and how to market it.

Buzzworthy has been around a while now so maybe t's time for a "refresh" on the packaging?

Overcracker wrote:It's also quite mistifying how they manage to shoehorn Wheeljack everywhere, 3 different lines, and now the bundle here but Hound was seemingly impossible to slip into any line Did we really need yet another Wheeljack?

Especially since VW Bee is right there in need of a reissue over anyone else. IMO
I mean if they were struggling with candidates for a 5pack, I can think of a few better ones! lol
Both might be neat if redone with non clear windows, but that really isn't my thing because if I go down that road then I'm gonna need all the others redone in the same manner. Right?

And I'm not about to go rebuy every bot because of an alternat window, and having just a few scatted about would look off to me.

Till-all-R1 wrote:...
Also, as with Walmart also making a boneheaded move caused Cosmos to be severely under packed. So there is an issue with not quite understanding the contents, it's not like they're buying a case of toasters in that they know exactly what they're getting and how to market it.

I don't think this is Walmart's fault or problem. They're not determining the case contents or distribution to begin with. Nor do they care, and why should they? They don't want to move 1/8th of the contents of the case, but the whole quantity.

AcademyofDrX wrote:

Till-all-R1 wrote:...
Also, as with Walmart also making a boneheaded move caused Cosmos to be severely under packed. So there is an issue with not quite understanding the contents, it's not like they're buying a case of toasters in that they know exactly what they're getting and how to market it.

I don't think this is Walmart's fault or problem. They're not determining the case contents or distribution to begin with. Nor do they care, and why should they? They don't want to move 1/8th of the contents of the case, but the whole quantity.

I read that Walmart did determine the case content. BMac had said that Hasbro will help Walmart and recommend product but at the end of the day, it's Walmart who determines and accepts what they sell.

That would make more sense than Hasbro purposefully making cosmos one per case.

Till-all-R1 wrote:

Overcracker wrote:It's also quite mistifying how they manage to shoehorn Wheeljack everywhere, 3 different lines, and now the bundle here but Hound was seemingly impossible to slip into any line Did we really need yet another Wheeljack?

Especially since VW Bee is right there in need of a reissue over anyone else. IMO

Dunno if Mall-Wart has stopped squatting on VW straight-up Bee, though.

Till-all-R1 wrote:I mean if they were struggling with candidates for a 5pack, I can think of a few better ones! lol

Indeed. Like, say, Tap-Out or Glyph. Or Crosshairs. Or someone from Legacy who got scalper-hoovered, like Devcon, Shrapnel, or Bombshell. Even ER Hoist would be be better, just to give people who missed the original release a fresh window.

Till-all-R1 wrote:Both might be neat if redone with non clear windows

They better not be redone with opaque windows. If they are, then this pack is a complete write-off IMO.

I seriously don't get what people see in that...

william-james88 wrote:

AcademyofDrX wrote:

Till-all-R1 wrote:...
Also, as with Walmart also making a boneheaded move caused Cosmos to be severely under packed. So there is an issue with not quite understanding the contents, it's not like they're buying a case of toasters in that they know exactly what they're getting and how to market it.

I don't think this is Walmart's fault or problem. They're not determining the case contents or distribution to begin with. Nor do they care, and why should they? They don't want to move 1/8th of the contents of the case, but the whole quantity.

I read that Walmart did determine the case content. BMac had said that Hasbro will help Walmart and recommend product but at the end of the day, it's Walmart who determines and accepts what they sell.

That would make more sense than Hasbro purposefully making cosmos one per case.

Yes. The retailers have more power than the manufacturers on this front - this is a hard fact of late-20th-century-onward retail. Mall Wart especially, given their ungodly huge market share. And also especially with exclusive lines.

And it has to be said that Mall Wart have something of a history of not judging Transformers demand well. They've own-goal'd themselves in the past by generating gluts of exclusives that then shelfwarm.

william-james88 wrote:

AcademyofDrX wrote:

Till-all-R1 wrote:...
Also, as with Walmart also making a boneheaded move caused Cosmos to be severely under packed. So there is an issue with not quite understanding the contents, it's not like they're buying a case of toasters in that they know exactly what they're getting and how to market it.

I don't think this is Walmart's fault or problem. They're not determining the case contents or distribution to begin with. Nor do they care, and why should they? They don't want to move 1/8th of the contents of the case, but the whole quantity.

I read that Walmart did determine the case content. BMac had said that Hasbro will help Walmart and recommend product but at the end of the day, it's Walmart who determines and accepts what they sell.

That would make more sense than Hasbro purposefully making cosmos one per case.

I'm having a hard time following the logic in how that would work. Does Hasbro have Walmart review a list during production or after the figures are developed? How did that wind up with a five-figure wave? What's the process for deciding when a figure should be mainline or exclusive to begin with? I've learned to accept the necessary evil that is retailer exclusives because I know that they help commit retailers to selling lines and given quantities. Beyond that, none of it has ever made much sense, including that anyone expects corporate buyers to pay attention to the finer points of fan demand when they're selling in bulk.

ScottyP wrote:This sounds like Target tripping over themselves more than anything. The Cliffjumper was very difficult to find and B127 seemed to move ok, at least. Kup sat around a bit, but at least anecdotally, he didn't sit around that long. This reeks of an internal distribution (or POG execution, timing, etc) kerfuffle that Target themselves misinterpreted.

Yes, this is a 100% self inflicted wound. Target is notorious for that. As a Canadian, I saw that empire crumble before my eyes due to really stupid mistakes (like using american units for data entry when they were selling in a market where products sold used the metric system).
A ton of that BB SS86 Kup wave was produced and a ton ended up at Ollie's/Ross instead of their shelves. So their response, instead of fixing their internal problems that made these figures end up at Ollies, was to simply pass on the wave which had a not yet finalized order.

AcademyofDrX wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

AcademyofDrX wrote:

Till-all-R1 wrote:...
Also, as with Walmart also making a boneheaded move caused Cosmos to be severely under packed. So there is an issue with not quite understanding the contents, it's not like they're buying a case of toasters in that they know exactly what they're getting and how to market it.

I don't think this is Walmart's fault or problem. They're not determining the case contents or distribution to begin with. Nor do they care, and why should they? They don't want to move 1/8th of the contents of the case, but the whole quantity.

I read that Walmart did determine the case content. BMac had said that Hasbro will help Walmart and recommend product but at the end of the day, it's Walmart who determines and accepts what they sell.

That would make more sense than Hasbro purposefully making cosmos one per case.

I'm having a hard time following the logic in how that would work. Does Hasbro have Walmart review a list during production or after the figures are developed? How did that wind up with a five-figure wave? What's the process for deciding when a figure should be mainline or exclusive to begin with? I've learned to accept the necessary evil that is retailer exclusives because I know that they help commit retailers to selling lines and given quantities. Beyond that, none of it has ever made much sense, including that anyone expects corporate buyers to pay attention to the finer points of fan demand when they're selling in bulk.

As someone who covers this stuff, it's very frustrating not knowing any of those answers and trying to make sense of it all. It does appear to be nonsense. Like why does Walmart care all of a sudden about an exclusive this specifically?

AcademyofDrX wrote:I'm having a hard time following the logic in how that would work. Does Hasbro have Walmart review a list during production or after the figures are developed? How did that wind up with a five-figure wave? What's the process for deciding when a figure should be mainline or exclusive to begin with? I've learned to accept the necessary evil that is retailer exclusives because I know that they help commit retailers to selling lines and given quantities. Beyond that, none of it has ever made much sense, including that anyone expects corporate buyers to pay attention to the finer points of fan demand when they're selling in bulk.

It's really nothing new, this practice has always been more about what the retailer wants to accept as opposed to Hasbro choosing wave contents. I'm more familiar with it with Star Wars but it likely makes sense across the board. Retailers want well known characters because that's what they feel will sell and with good reason.

This is where/when you'll hear the term "we work closely with out partners" when discussing wave contents and how they're chosen, which means it was pretty much a one sided collaboration but explains why certain character were chosen for a wave versus another. Now I don't rightly know what metric Walmart or Target uses to make those decision when it comes to Transformers, specifically when we're taking G2 repaints or some of the other oddities. But it will explain why you have a mix of G1, Bayverse and animated instead of the whole case being one specific medium. It also makes sense from a collector standpoint because there are collectors of all kinds not just one medium, I'd be at a loss if a whole wave was nothing but Universe characters, or TF Prime or RID etc.

It's no secret that Walmart uses their massive buying power and influence to dictate certain terms. It also doesn't help that there are so very few retailers anymore that manufacturers are struggling to find a market for their products leaving them to basically take the deal offered.

This is oversimplifying the matter and it much more complicated than a few paragraphs can explain.

I can simplify it down to one word - it's bogus, that's what .

Till-all-R1 wrote:Now I don't rightly know what metric Walmart or Target uses to make those decision when it comes to Transformers, specifically when we're taking G2 repaints or some of the other oddities.

Probably the same Hasbro uses: Alt Mode and Color. That would explain cosmos since Transformers that turn into cars sell better (and is what the suits know to be reliable and associated most closely with the brand). It's also no coincidence that, as you suggested, there was an Optimus Prime mold for the leader slot in both of Walmart's exclusive lines.

Oh and FYI, the best selling boys toys are vehicles tied to a profession (firetruck, police car, construction vehicles). The best selling lego sets* are trucks as well. So yeah, all that points to alt modes being an accepted industry metric.

*I'm referring to lego sets targetted at kids which are about building something specific and not just a big box of random blocks for them to do as they wish with, since those big random boxes are the best sellers.

I'm sad that Hatchet got canceled, hopefully he ends up somewhere, I want to have a full set of Dreads!

Considering how bad Kup shelfwarmed, I'm not surprised that wave was the issue. I never saw Origins Jazz, saw Bee once, I found Bluestreak in bountiful numbers and even in Ollies. Terrorsaur and Dinobot were also pretty slow sellers.

Honestly, I'm happy to get a crack at Sunstreaker, Wheeljack, Jazz and Trailbreaker again as those were the guys I missed the first time around.
I understand why it's annoying to other fans, but it really makes my collecting life easier now.