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carytheone wrote:Hope springs eternal, but don't let anyone here that.JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:carytheone wrote:I have yet to see any TFs at any of our GameStopsJelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Entertainment Earth? Well, time to give that ol' GameStop a visit.
They have appeared in Canadian ones, but one can hope, right?
william-james88 wrote:If ever Sabrblade decides to go on vacation, I am glad to know we can rely on you.
I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus
Rodimus Prime wrote:I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus
ZeroWolf wrote:Can you name any teams where the leader doesn't form the torso (or part of it at least)?
ZeroWolf wrote:All scramble City style teams have the leader as their torsos.
Lots. Plenty in this list who aren't Scramble City combiners, even if you exclude the listed two-member combiners.ZeroWolf wrote:How many non sc combines are there though? I think even the Micromasters combines had the leader be either the one who sat in the chest
I mean I know the first two Devy and Raiden...but after that?
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Lots. Plenty in this list who aren't Scramble City combiners, even if you exclude the listed two-member combiners.ZeroWolf wrote:How many non sc combines are there though? I think even the Micromasters combines had the leader be either the one who sat in the chest
I mean I know the first two Devy and Raiden...but after that?
Wing is the leader. He forms the upper torso.o.supreme wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Lots. Plenty in this list who aren't Scramble City combiners, even if you exclude the listed two-member combiners.ZeroWolf wrote:How many non sc combines are there though? I think even the Micromasters combines had the leader be either the one who sat in the chest
I mean I know the first two Devy and Raiden...but after that?
Yeah Monstructor/Dinoking has Icepick/Goryu as a leg. Not sure on Landcross. Wave is the Leader, but I've never held the toy in hand, I think he's part of the torso....
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Wing is the leader. He forms the upper torso.o.supreme wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Lots. Plenty in this list who aren't Scramble City combiners, even if you exclude the listed two-member combiners.ZeroWolf wrote:How many non sc combines are there though? I think even the Micromasters combines had the leader be either the one who sat in the chest
I mean I know the first two Devy and Raiden...but after that?
Yeah Monstructor/Dinoking has Icepick/Goryu as a leg. Not sure on Landcross. Wave is the Leader, but I've never held the toy in hand, I think he's part of the torso....
o.supreme wrote:ZeroWolf wrote:Can you name any teams where the leader doesn't form the torso (or part of it at least)?
Scrapper / Devastator
ZeroWolf wrote:All scramble City style teams have the leader as their torsos.
see...you put the "SC" qualifier after your initial statement... True, to my knowledge this has been a constant up until now, but basically non SC combiners show us that, while the symbolism of the leader being central (physically and figuratively)to the team is strong, it is not necessary.
Rodimus Prime wrote:I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:o.supreme wrote:True, to my knowledge this has been a constant up until now, but basically non SC combiners show us that, while the symbolism of the leader being central (physically and figuratively)to the team is strong, it is not necessary.
And what else would you call the CW/PotP combiner standard combiner style?Like the Energon combiners, it's a modernization of the Scramble City principle.
o.supreme wrote:ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:o.supreme wrote:True, to my knowledge this has been a constant up until now, but basically non SC combiners show us that, while the symbolism of the leader being central (physically and figuratively)to the team is strong, it is not necessary.
And what else would you call the CW/PotP combiner standard combiner style?Like the Energon combiners, it's a modernization of the Scramble City principle.
I was not discussing what name to call the modern design. I am perfectly fine calling all combiners from CW/UW & PotP (sans Devastator and Predaking of course) "Scramble City" Combiners.
What I was saying was that, the central figure that usually makes up the torso or part of the torso doesn't always necessarily have to be the leader. It's a nice design aesthetic, (in many genres featuring combining robots) one we are most accustomed to. But for me, it doesn't *make or break* a combiner team.
JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:The Micromaster Combiners... *looks it up* O dear... Sixturbo and Sixtrain had the leaders be the torso and head, the rest is in a rather embarrassing role as the combiner's bottom. True, technically part of the torso, but still...
Rainmaker wrote:I hope this line will use more than just molds from PotP...
Like it was mentioned, Devastator. The original.ZeroWolf wrote:Can you name any teams where the leader doesn't form the torso (or part of it at least)?
Matter of opinion. I think he sux. So much so that I use the Dinobots with Sky Lynx.Zelda wrote:1a. Grimlock does not make a horrible torso.
Sludge and Grimlock have different dino bodies. But that's not why I suggested Sludge being the torso.Zelda wrote:1b. Even if you made Sludge the torso it likely wouldn't change the engineering significantly.
They were made the same size for sales purposes. A brontosaurus is much bigger than a T-Rex. This size difference should have made Sludge the obvious torso. But of course I'm campaigning for accurate scale, and we know the Transformers Universe frowns upon such common sense things.Zelda wrote:2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:
I'll give you that one. It would have been a show of bravery on the designer's part to break from this tradition. Though considering the stubbornness of the average Geewunner, it most likely wouldn't have been too popular on boards like this. However, considering that the Dinobots were never a combining team before now, there's no true precedent for making Grimlock the torso.Zelda wrote:3. Grimlock is not only the leader, he's also the most well-known of the Dinobots. That tends to put him at the head of the queue.
But in scale with Devastator, the Dinobots' first adversary (even if Devy's first adversary was Omega Supreme) and Predaking as well, with whom the Dinobots would have matched up well, being a group of wild animals. But that would have meant that the Dinos would have been an exclusive set like Devy and Preddy, but I would have been fine with that. I still would be. As for Scramble City, the Dinobots weren't included in that concept to begin with, so they shouldn't be forced into it now.Zelda wrote:Now frankly, for scale purposes they would all be Voyagers ideally, but that would be a tall order to do all in one line. And it would make Volcanicus out of scale with Menasor, Bruticus, and Abominus.
Rodimus Prime wrote:Sludge and Grimlock have different dino bodies. But that's not why I suggested Sludge being the torso.Zelda wrote:1b. Even if you made Sludge the torso it likely wouldn't change the engineering significantly.
Rodimus Prime wrote:They were made the same size for sales purposes. A brontosaurus is much bigger than a T-Rex. This size difference should have made Sludge the obvious torso. But of course I'm campaigning for accurate scale, and we know the Transformers Universe frowns upon such common sense things.Zelda wrote:2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:![]()
Rodimus Prime wrote:However, considering that the Dinobots were never a combining team before now, there's no true precedent for making Grimlock the torso.
Rodimus Prime wrote:But in scale with Devastator, the Dinobots' first adversary (even if Devy's first adversary was Omega Supreme) and Predaking as well, with whom the Dinobots would have matched up well, being a group of wild animals. But that would have meant that the Dinos would have been an exclusive set like Devy and Preddy, but I would have been fine with that. I still would be.Zelda wrote:Now frankly, for scale purposes they would all be Voyagers ideally, but that would be a tall order to do all in one line. And it would make Volcanicus out of scale with Menasor, Bruticus, and Abominus.
Rodimus Prime wrote:As for Scramble City, the Dinobots weren't included in that concept to begin with, so they shouldn't be forced into it now.
Where did I say that? I was talking about the dinosaur species the alt modes were based on. I even pointed out that Sludge and Grimlock were the same size for sales purposes.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Yes, a brontosaurus is much bigger than a T. rex. But that does not automatically mean "Sludge is much bigger than Grimlock", which is what you had said.
I did say 'should' and not 'is.' And these are not G1 incarnations. These are Power of the Primes. In G1, the Dinobots didn't combine, another point I made.Now, if you had said "should be" you might have had a point (though one I'd still debate). But nope, you said "is" and (with the possible exception of IDW, I'm not sure) that just isn't the case with their G1 incarnations.
Yes, because they blend in so well now. They're dinosaurs.And why do they necessarily need to match the sizes of the millennia-extinct animals their alternate modes are machines in the rough image of? They'd blend in about as well as Ben Grimm either way
The Combiner Wars story taking place in official fiction validates most of them. I don't recall the Dinobots being a part of it as a combining group.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:As for Scramble City, the Dinobots weren't included in that concept to begin with, so they shouldn't be forced into it now.
By that logic rather a lot of PotP and CW Deluxe and Voyagers are invalid
No, not 'precious' at all. Sky Lynx is mine for the sole purpose of combining the Dinobots with a torso that's also an animal, and Sky Lynx is a better option than the dumpster fire that is Grimlock's torso mode.including your precious CW Sky Lynx.
Rodimus Prime wrote:I did say 'should' and not 'is.'
Rodimus Prime wrote:I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus
Rodimus Prime wrote:And these are not G1 incarnations. These are Power of the Primes. In G1, the Dinobots didn't combine, another point I made.
Rodimus Prime wrote:The Combiner Wars story taking place in official fiction validates most of them. I don't recall the Dinobots being a part of it as a combining group.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:As for Scramble City, the Dinobots weren't included in that concept to begin with, so they shouldn't be forced into it now.
By that logic rather a lot of PotP and CW Deluxe and Voyagers are invalid
No, not 'precious' at all. Sky Lynx is mine for the sole purpose of combining the Dinobots with a torso that's also an animal, and Sky Lynx is a better option than the dumpster fire that is Grimlock's torso mode.including your precious CW Sky Lynx.
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:I did say 'should' and not 'is.'
Oh, really? Let's just double-check that shall we?Rodimus Prime wrote:I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus
Technically you said "was", but the principle is the same.
The 4 limb Dinobots, yes. Grimlock? Not so much.Rodimus Prime wrote:And these are not G1 incarnations. These are Power of the Primes. In G1, the Dinobots didn't combine, another point I made.
I meant that they're the same characters. And the PotP toys are very heavily based on the G1 designs.
My point still stands.Rodimus Prime wrote:The Combiner Wars story taking place in official fiction validates most of them. I don't recall the Dinobots being a part of it as a combining group.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:As for Scramble City, the Dinobots weren't included in that concept to begin with, so they shouldn't be forced into it now.
By that logic rather a lot of PotP and CW Deluxe and Voyagers are invalid
It validates Sunstreaker, Ironhide, Mirage, Prowl, Optimus, and Sky Lynx. Hound, Trailbreaker, Smokescreen, and Cyclonus? Not so much. You're right that it doesn't validate the Dinobots as a combining group, but gee... might that have something to do with the fact that it, y'know, antedates Power of the Primes?![]()
Yes. How far back did you have to dig to come up with that?Still think it's a dumpsterfire even after finding out you were transforming the arms wrong, huh?
Thank you. This is what I've been saying since the beginning. Matter of opinion.Fine, have it your way. I personally love it and think it rocks.
Rodimus Prime wrote:ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:I did say 'should' and not 'is.'
Oh, really? Let's just double-check that shall we?Rodimus Prime wrote:I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus
Technically you said "was", but the principle is the same.![]()
![]()
![]()
You're picking the wrong statement. We're not talking about what I said to someone else, we're talking about our conversation.
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus
1a. Grimlock does not make a horrible torso.
1b. Even if you made Sludge the torso it likely wouldn't change the engineering significantly.
2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:They were made the same size for sales purposes. A brontosaurus is much bigger than a T-Rex. This size difference should have made Sludge the obvious torso. But of course I'm campaigning for accurate scale, and we know the Transformers Universe frowns upon such common sense things.Zelda wrote:2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:
images snipped![]()
Yes, a brontosaurus is much bigger than a T. rex. But that does not automatically mean "Sludge is much bigger than Grimlock", which is what you had said. Now, if you had said "should be" you might have had a point (though one I'd still debate). But nope, you said "is" and (with the possible exception of IDW, I'm not sure) that just isn't the case with their G1 incarnations. Honestly, the G1 Dinobots kinda have the Beast Wars thing going on of the altmode being scaled to the robot rather than the other way 'round. And why do they necessarily need to match the sizes of the millennia-extinct animals their alternate modes are machines in the rough image of? They'd blend in about as well as Ben Grimm either way
Rodimus Prime wrote:But nice try.I told you Sludge should have been bigger, as the reasoning for why I picked him over Grimlock to be the torso.
Rodimus Prime wrote:The 4 limb Dinobots, yes. Grimlock? Not so much.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:And these are not G1 incarnations. These are Power of the Primes. In G1, the Dinobots didn't combine, another point I made.
I meant that they're the same characters. And the PotP toys are very heavily based on the G1 designs.
Rodimus Prime wrote:My point still stands.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:The Combiner Wars story taking place in official fiction validates most of them. I don't recall the Dinobots being a part of it as a combining group.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:As for Scramble City, the Dinobots weren't included in that concept to begin with, so they shouldn't be forced into it now.
By that logic rather a lot of PotP and CW Deluxe and Voyagers are invalid
It validates Sunstreaker, Ironhide, Mirage, Prowl, Optimus, and Sky Lynx. Hound, Trailbreaker, Smokescreen, and Cyclonus? Not so much. You're right that it doesn't validate the Dinobots as a combining group, but gee... might that have something to do with the fact that it, y'know, antedates Power of the Primes?![]()
Rodimus Prime wrote:Yes. How far back did you have to dig to come up with that?Still think it's a dumpsterfire even after finding out you were transforming the arms wrong, huh?![]()
The sentence you quoted was part of a conversation I had with someone else. Not you. I was talking about the characters in fiction, not the toys. To you I did say 'should' and not 'is' in the first part of our discussion.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:I did say 'should' and not 'is.'
Oh, really? Let's just double-check that shall we?Rodimus Prime wrote:I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus
Technically you said "was", but the principle is the same.![]()
![]()
![]()
You're picking the wrong statement. We're not talking about what I said to someone else, we're talking about our conversation.
...Excuse me?
It's alright I just wanted to make sure my reasoning was clear so maybe I overdid it.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus
1a. Grimlock does not make a horrible torso.
1b. Even if you made Sludge the torso it likely wouldn't change the engineering significantly.
2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:They were made the same size for sales purposes. A brontosaurus is much bigger than a T-Rex. This size difference should have made Sludge the obvious torso. But of course I'm campaigning for accurate scale, and we know the Transformers Universe frowns upon such common sense things.Zelda wrote:2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:
images snipped![]()
Yes, a brontosaurus is much bigger than a T. rex. But that does not automatically mean "Sludge is much bigger than Grimlock", which is what you had said. Now, if you had said "should be" you might have had a point (though one I'd still debate). But nope, you said "is" and (with the possible exception of IDW, I'm not sure) that just isn't the case with their G1 incarnations. Honestly, the G1 Dinobots kinda have the Beast Wars thing going on of the altmode being scaled to the robot rather than the other way 'round. And why do they necessarily need to match the sizes of the millennia-extinct animals their alternate modes are machines in the rough image of? They'd blend in about as well as Ben Grimm either way
I was going on about your statement of "Sludge was bigger anyway!" in both those posts, because as far as the G1 toys and most G1 fiction goes it's such a huge load of cesium salami that I got a tad hung up on it. And I took your saying "They were made the same size for sales purposes. A brontosaurus is much bigger than a T-Rex." as arguments defending that statement. My apologies for misunderstanding.![]()
I got that, I was trying to leave it out so we don't go on a tangent about Beast Wars as well, which I tend to do.Rodimus Prime wrote:But nice try.I told you Sludge should have been bigger, as the reasoning for why I picked him over Grimlock to be the torso.
I did still manage to respond to this despite being hung up on the other thing. This is what "Honestly, the G1 Dinobots kinda have the Beast Wars thing going on of the altmode being scaled to the robot rather than the other way 'round. And why do they necessarily need to match the sizes of the millennia-extinct animals their alternate modes are machines in the rough image of?" was a response to.
Okay I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think PoTP Grimlock was modified too much to resemble the G1 figure in construction. He kinda looks like him in robot mode, the dino mode is atrocious, and was clearly sacrificed for the torso mode, which to me is a mess. The shoulders are too weak, skinny, and wide. You like it, and that's fine, to each his own.Rodimus Prime wrote:The 4 limb Dinobots, yes. Grimlock? Not so much.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rodimus Prime wrote:And these are not G1 incarnations. These are Power of the Primes. In G1, the Dinobots didn't combine, another point I made.
I meant that they're the same characters. And the PotP toys are very heavily based on the G1 designs.
No, Grimlock too. His transformation engineering was tweaked to accommodate the torso mode, but he still takes most of his design cues and sculpted details from the original toy (I'm quite familiar with the original - own it, have frequently played with it, have even customized it), and he's definitely deco'd to evoke it.
I never saw those, so I'll concede that point. I was going strictly by the comics.My point still stands.
How so? You said the Combiner Wars story "validates most of them" ("them" presumably being characters who were made into modernized SC combiner members when they weren't SC combiner members originally), but it doesn't. It doesn't validate any of the non-Terrorcon PotP voyagers and deluxes (of which there are 14, not counting Punch/Counterpunch since he's not a limb), and it doesn't even validate all the CW instances (it only validates six of them, four are left out in the cold). That's six it validates versus eighteen it doesn't.
And that's not even getting into Earth Wars or the PotP web series, both of which feature Volcanicus.
Wait what, how'd I miss this? What's the deco based on?JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:The upcoming Megatron will be a redeco of the Siege Voyager.Rainmaker wrote:I hope this line will use more than just molds from PotP...
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