The Energon Pub

[D-Maximal_Primal]

Looking good as always MTMTE. Can't wait to read this. I like Nickel too. Gives the DJD some extra depth. And don't worry about her and all these arguments: The real thing is ALWAYS not at all what we expect. Just sit back folks and just enjoy the tease: The real thing is gonna Rock as always

[Nemesis Maximo]

I'm pretty darn unfamiliar with the DJD. I had to look them up the other day after seeing that comic cover with them on it. They just look really cool.
I saw, in this preview, a symbiotic relationship between the DJD and Nickel. Not unlike the mighty rhino and those cute birds that perch on thier back eating parasites. Or those cute little fish that keep the ferocious shark clean. The DJD wasn't being cute. They're just sitting there allowing their symbiotic partner to help keep them the fantastic killing machines they are.

An interesting point indeed, Convoy.

[Convoy]

An interesting point indeed, Convoy.

Thanks for taking me to the top of the next page.

I feel as though some are reading far too into this in the wrong direction.
I, for one, am happy to see a fembot who isn't portrayed as the slim/busty/sexy archetype.

Now I know what ScottyP was talking about in the Twincast thread. And now I feel kinda stupid for suggeting more than half that stuff. If Scotty can get into the Japanese animated series maybe I can get back into the comics.

Is there a TPB anyone might suggest starring the DJD available?

[Va'al]

An interesting point indeed, Convoy.

Thanks for taking me to the top of the next page.

I feel as though some are reading far too into this in the wrong direction.
I, for one, am happy to see a fembot who isn't portrayed as the slim/busty/sexy archetype.

Now I know what ScottyP was talking about in the Twincast thread. And now I feel kinda stupid for suggeting more than half that stuff. If Scotty can get into the Japanese animated series maybe I can get back into the comics.

Is there a TPB anyone might suggest starring the DJD available?

Volume 2 of MTMTE, with Tarn's big purple face on the cover, has the two issues in which they were introduced.

[Sagitta]

Meh. More willing to wait than to jump to conclusions. Makes perfect sense the DJD has some kind of doctor given Tarn's cog addiction.

As for Nickel...I ask what's the more troubling? That the DJD have a medic? Or that the medic overlooks the fact that they're brutal, sadistic psychopaths and supports as well as condones them within their trade by keeping them up and running? Should she be placed in a "cute" light if even by appearance thatle makes all the more troubling for the character. But then, one can only glean so much by just a few pages of a preview.

On another matter, now that the DJD are back...I can't help but wonder who in the heck the undercover Autobot agent is within that merry little band spoken of waaay back in "Last Stand of the Wreckers". Or has that cover been blown already?

[Dead Metal]

Meh. More willing to wait than to jump to conclusions. Makes perfect sense the DJD has some kind of doctor given Tarn's cog addiction.

As for Nickel...I ask what's the more troubling? That the DJD have a medic? Or that the medic overlooks the fact that they're brutal, sadistic psychopaths and supports as well as condones them within their trade by keeping them up and running? Should she be placed in a "cute" light if even by appearance thatle makes all the more troubling for the character. But then, one can only glean so much by just a few pages of a preview.

On another matter, now that the DJD are back...I can't help but wonder who in the heck the undercover Autobot agent is within that merry little band spoken of waaay back in "Last Stand of the Wreckers". Or has that cover been blown already?

It's totally Nickel think about it, it all makes sense!

I don't really see or understand why we're already judging an entire issue's quality or a character just from the preview pages?
These are five pages, how does this ruin the DJD? We keep demanding more realistic and deeper characters, and not that long ago we've had people complaining about the DJD just being one dimensional horrors, suddenly they're ruined because they're not?

I mean look at history, the closest comparison we can draw between the DJD and the real world in a way most people understand it are the Gestapo from Nazi Germany. They were the bogymen that scared the sh*t out of all of the German military and population at the time, everyone saw them as inhumane monsters, but guess what they had private lives and people that cared for them. F**k, the concentration camp I visited was run buy a guy who personally bashed the heads of Jewish babies in during the day and then went home and hugged his own children and played with them as if he worked at a toy store.
What's scarier, murder machines that do nothing but slaughter, or murder machines that after they've done their work are annoyed that their caretaker and medic scolds them and that they have feelings like everyone else?

And fan girls will make cute drawings of the most disgusting and violent characters and garnish them with hearts even if there aren't any official "cute" moments. I'm pretty sure you can even find drawing a fangirl made where she or her self insert character is having a sweet moment of tenderness with Unicron because "they can totally change" him.

I also don't really see why Nickel is sexist? So she's the medic and bosses them around, sure you can see that as an extreme mother caricature, but thing is I thought this was another "guy" TF until Tarn said she. Most characters I've seen like her are guy characters. And lets not forget, we've seen like two pages of her now. For all we know there is more to her than scolding the DJD and fixing them up.

As for catering to tumblr, I hate that too, it's what ruined The Legend of Korra, and the rest of the Avatar universe going forward.

[Optimizzy]

Meh. More willing to wait than to jump to conclusions. Makes perfect sense the DJD has some kind of doctor given Tarn's cog addiction.

As for Nickel...I ask what's the more troubling? That the DJD have a medic? Or that the medic overlooks the fact that they're brutal, sadistic psychopaths and supports as well as condones them within their trade by keeping them up and running? Should she be placed in a "cute" light if even by appearance thatle makes all the more troubling for the character. But then, one can only glean so much by just a few pages of a preview.

On another matter, now that the DJD are back...I can't help but wonder who in the heck the undercover Autobot agent is within that merry little band spoken of waaay back in "Last Stand of the Wreckers". Or has that cover been blown already?

It's totally Nickel think about it, it all makes sense!

I don't really see or understand why we're already judging an entire issue's quality or a character just from the preview pages?
These are five pages, how does this ruin the DJD? We keep demanding more realistic and deeper characters, and not that long ago we've had people complaining about the DJD just being one dimensional horrors, suddenly they're ruined because they're not?

I mean look at history, the closest comparison we can draw between the DJD and the real world in a way most people understand it are the Gestapo from Nazi Germany. They were the bogymen that scared the sh*t out of all of the German military and population at the time, everyone saw them as inhumane monsters, but guess what they had private lives and people that cared for them. F**k, the concentration camp I visited was run buy a guy who personally bashed the heads of Jewish babies in during the day and then went home and hugged his own children and played with them as if he worked at a toy store.
What's scarier, murder machines that do nothing but slaughter, or murder machines that after they've done their work are annoyed that their caretaker and medic scolds them and that they have feelings like everyone else?

And fan girls will make cute drawings of the most disgusting and violent characters and garnish them with hearts even if there aren't any official "cute" moments. I'm pretty sure you can even find drawing a fangirl made where she or her self insert character is having a sweet moment of tenderness with Unicron because "they can totally change" him.

I also don't really see why Nickel is sexist? So she's the medic and bosses them around, sure you can see that as an extreme mother caricature, but thing is I thought this was another "guy" TF until Tarn said she. Most characters I've seen like her are guy characters. And lets not forget, we've seen like two pages of her now. For all we know there is more to her than scolding the DJD and fixing them up.

As for catering to tumblr, I hate that too, it's what ruined The Legend of Korra, and the rest of the Avatar universe going forward.

I see you're point and I agree with you in concept. But the idea of the doting caretaker is less impressive than that of a loving father. In your example it's far more horrendous that a father would murder babies than for murderous thugs to have a doting mother type...complaining about all the blood they get in their teeth. It's true we shouldn't judge, and this is like the ONLY thing Roberts has done that I wasnt completely happy with, but it's a mistake IMHO if it continues in this vein.

Having them come back from murdering someone and maybe gently feed their turbofoxes or pray and watch some mindless tv would be FAR more humanizing than having a "cute" decepticon give them the what for for getting blood on the carpet again.

Have them be shown as normal adults doing come home from doing horrible things...not children in need of a mother

[Psychout]

I mean look at history, the closest comparison we can draw between the DJD and the real world in a way most people understand it are the Gestapo from Nazi Germany.

I think they're more based on the Spanish Inquisition. Tarn appears to be a play on the first Grand Inquisitor Torquemada, pronounced 'talk-'em-'arder, especially with his ability to literally 'talk' people to death. Definitely undertones of both though.

What's scarier, murder machines that do nothing but slaughter, or murder machines that after they've done their work are annoyed that their caretaker and medic scolds them and that they have feelings like everyone else?

Honest opinion? The former. Dedicated and fanatic zealots that cannot be reasoned with, cannot be distracted, cannot be dissuaded from their goal; an enemy that you have to kill to stop it as they are relentless, and with the story centred around an autobot ship full of pacifists and dreamers, a single-minded DJD really were that much worse.
This just looks like a mom scolding kids for not doing their homework.

Maybe the extreme contrast will work, maybe its part of a bigger pay-off later in the book, but I can certainly understand the disappointment. The DJD had such 'bogeyman' potential, and this appears to show them as angsty teenagers more akin to Twilight than crusaders of Decepticon justice.

[Optimizzy]

I never thought about Torquemada. That's interesting though I never would have thought about a British accent on the name. Very clever.

[ctrlFrequency]

And fan girls will make cute drawings of the most disgusting and violent characters and garnish them with hearts even if there aren't any official "cute" moments. I'm pretty sure you can even find drawing a fangirl made where she or her self insert character is having a sweet moment of tenderness with Unicron because "they can totally change" him.

I also don't really see why Nickel is sexist? So she's the medic and bosses them around, sure you can see that as an extreme mother caricature, but thing is I thought this was another "guy" TF until Tarn said she. Most characters I've seen like her are guy characters. And lets not forget, we've seen like two pages of her now. For all we know there is more to her than scolding the DJD and fixing them up.

As for catering to tumblr, I hate that too, it's what ruined The Legend of Korra, and the rest of the Avatar universe going forward.

The cute Is already out there, I'm aware, I've seen it and it can't be unseen. But don't think they need catered to. the writing is top notch in the series, the entire series, both writers, so I hope that they can stand on the merits of excellent writing rather than how many Tumblr reblogs they can get.

As for the feminist issue, keep in mind not everything feminist is about sexism. Nickel is not a sexist character from what I saw... but she is a too narrow stereotype. (Can a woman be a medic without being a giggling nurse or a scolding mother?)

The issue is awfully complicated and quite frankly, on a board full of men, please forgive me, but I will not try to start a battle, but simply say feminism is much more than crying about sexist representations.

[Dead Metal]

I mean look at history, the closest comparison we can draw between the DJD and the real world in a way most people understand it are the Gestapo from Nazi Germany.

I think they're more based on the Spanish Inquisition. Tarn appears to be a play on the first Grand Inquisitor Torquemada, pronounced 'talk-'em-'arder, especially with his ability to literally 'talk' people to death. Definitely undertones of both though.

Damn, never thought about the Spanish Inquisition, it makes so much more sense taking into account that they're pretty religious about Megatron and the Decepticon cause too. I was just so used to the Decepticons and badguys in general to be more Nazi based that I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

Goddamn, now I can't help but picture Kaon turn into a comfy chair while Tarn demands cushions.

What's scarier, murder machines that do nothing but slaughter, or murder machines that after they've done their work are annoyed that their caretaker and medic scolds them and that they have feelings like everyone else?

Honest opinion? The former. Dedicated and fanatic zealots that cannot be reasoned with, cannot be distracted, cannot be dissuaded from their goal; an enemy that you have to kill to stop it as they are relentless, and with the story centred around an autobot ship full of pacifists and dreamers, a single-minded DJD really were that much worse.
This just looks like a mom scolding kids for not doing their homework.

I think that someone who can murder so much and still manage to have a "normal" life because he doesn't see the horror he exacts on others as terrifying because he views the ones he inflicts them upon as little more than objects is scarier than something that knows it's bad but does it because it likes to.

Maybe the extreme contrast will work, maybe its part of a bigger pay-off later in the book, but I can certainly understand the disappointment. The DJD had such 'bogeyman' potential, and this appears to show them as angsty teenagers more akin to Twilight than crusaders of Decepticon justice.

Honestly, I don't see them being portrayed as angsty teenagers on these pages, more like guys that are horrors to everyone else and feared by so many, but still manage to care for this one person enough that they don't kill her for the way she treats them.

[Psychout]

Damn, never thought about the Spanish Inquisition, it makes so much more sense taking into account that they're pretty religious about Megatron and the Decepticon cause too. I was just so used to the Decepticons and badguys in general to be more Nazi based that I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

Goddamn, now I can't help but picture Kaon turn into a comfy chair while Tarn demands cushions.

I think that someone who can murder so much and still manage to have a "normal" life because he doesn't see the horror he exacts on others as terrifying because he views the ones he inflicts them upon as little more than objects is scarier than something that knows it's bad but does it because it likes to.

If it does go like that then I can see it working, but that wasn't the impression I got. We'll find out on Wednesday I guess.

[ctrlFrequency]

Something I should probably point out....

Do I think that the DJD should be so 1 dimensional that all they do is kill, and that they're personalities stop there?

No.

Even the worst possible person you can imagine had something normal about them. Some sliver of humanity. It did not make them less a monster.

Do I think that part of the DJD needed to be revealed?

No. It demystifies them, makes them less scary because we know they aren't real, they're characters. The DJD isn't coming to my house to get me. Humanizing them makes them less scary.

When we don't have something cute to relate to the characters, it makes fiction more terrrifying.

To use Psychout's Twilight example, I remember a time when (before the stupid Interview With a Vampire movie) vampires were freaking scary. They have been humanized in fiction to the point where they are procreating with humans. Heavily romanticized, they'very lost their fangs and are wispy teenage idols. But 30 years ago, not so much.

Humanize fictional demons and they loose their power.

[Dead Metal]

And fan girls will make cute drawings of the most disgusting and violent characters and garnish them with hearts even if there aren't any official "cute" moments. I'm pretty sure you can even find drawing a fangirl made where she or her self insert character is having a sweet moment of tenderness with Unicron because "they can totally change" him.

I also don't really see why Nickel is sexist? So she's the medic and bosses them around, sure you can see that as an extreme mother caricature, but thing is I thought this was another "guy" TF until Tarn said she. Most characters I've seen like her are guy characters. And lets not forget, we've seen like two pages of her now. For all we know there is more to her than scolding the DJD and fixing them up.

As for catering to tumblr, I hate that too, it's what ruined The Legend of Korra, and the rest of the Avatar universe going forward.

The cute Is already out there, I'm aware, I've seen it and it can't be unseen. But don't think they need catered to. the writing is top notch in the series, the entire series, both writers, so I hope that they can stand on the merits of excellent writing rather than how many Tumblr reblogs they can get.

As for the feminist issue, keep in mind not everything feminist is about sexism. Nickel is not a sexist character from what I saw... but she is a too narrow stereotype. (Can a woman be a medic without being a giggling nurse or a scolding mother?)

That's my point, we haven't seen anything of her, we've seen two pages that are designed to be a total 180 of the previous three. It takes time to actually get to know a character enough to know what they're like, especially here in MTMTE. Look how long it took for us to actually get to know Cyclonus, Swerve, Tailgate, Ultra Magnus, etc. They all seemed like one note stereotypes at first, and hell it took almost 20 issues for us to actually get the relationship between Rewind and Chromedome.
And it took 39 issues to show us a different side to the DJD.

I understand the desire to not want annoying clishe female characters, I do, I may be a guy, but I want as many equal representations as possible. But here's the thing, we've seen Nickel for the first time, for two pages, that's not enough time to really get the character, especially not a Roberts character. The guy explores character traits like other writers do plot lines. For all we know, what we've seen is an act and she has other motives and may even hate the DJD.

The issue is awfully complicated and quite frankly, on a board full of men, please forgive me, but I will not try to start a battle, but simply say feminism is much more than crying about sexist representations.

You don't really have to be afraid to go into detail, sure we have dickheads here, too many for my liking, but not all of us are unreasonable asshats. I wasn't trying to start a fight or anything, just stating my point of view from the 5 pages we've gotten to read of this comic.

It is strange, however, to read something on the internet written by a feminist who isn't one of the fake tumblr feminists.

So far I like Nickel, I find her hilarious, to me she's fresh because she's female while I usually know these types of characters as being male, especially with that design, and I'm sure there's more to her than we've seen here. That's what I've come to expect of Roberts after reading so much of this.

I see you're point and I agree with you in concept. But the idea of the doting caretaker is less impressive than that of a loving father. In your example it's far more horrendous that a father would murder babies than for murderous thugs to have a doting mother type...complaining about all the blood they get in their teeth. It's true we shouldn't judge, and this is like the ONLY thing Roberts has done that I wasnt completely happy with, but it's a mistake IMHO if it continues in this vein.

Having them come back from murdering someone and maybe gently feed their turbofoxes or pray and watch some mindless tv would be FAR more humanizing than having a "cute" decepticon give them the what for for getting blood on the carpet again.

Have them be shown as normal adults doing come home from doing horrible things...not children in need of a mother

I didn't really get the impression that they're in need of a mother, they seemed more annoyed to me than "Oh thank Megatron, mum's here!"

Again, this is a five page preview of a comic that isn't out yet, these are the first few seconds that we see this character for or get any characterization for the DJD. We cannot jump to conclusions. This is like switching on the TV, seeing the stinger to the latest episode of Grimm and saying "wow, this episode is the worst they have ever done, and the new villain is lame".

[Optimizzy]

essentially we are talking about removing their fangs. There may have been a directive to do this though. Personally I like that the decepticons are shown in a varied light. The thing with Roberts is he knows how to do this. The decepticon scavengers before? They were silly and funny but just when you kinda thought "Oh these guys are all right" Roberts shows them burning a helpless autobot in a very cruel way. Very well done.

Hopefully this will redeem itself but judging by the trope commonly used, I just dont see it.

[Optimizzy]

One thing that should be considered is the little description on the second page:

"Once they were the most feared of Megatron's soldiers, now..."

hmmmm.

[Dead Metal]

Damn, never thought about the Spanish Inquisition, it makes so much more sense taking into account that they're pretty religious about Megatron and the Decepticon cause too. I was just so used to the Decepticons and badguys in general to be more Nazi based that I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

Goddamn, now I can't help but picture Kaon turn into a comfy chair while Tarn demands cushions.

I think that someone who can murder so much and still manage to have a "normal" life because he doesn't see the horror he exacts on others as terrifying because he views the ones he inflicts them upon as little more than objects is scarier than something that knows it's bad but does it because it likes to.

If it does go like that then I can see it working, but that wasn't the impression I got. We'll find out on Wednesday I guess.

That's what I'm saying, we've got five pages, that cut off right in the middle of a sequence. Heck, until now we didn't expect them to start prying to Megatron after the whole Blib thing.

[ctrlFrequency]

I'm not disagreeing Optimizzy. I personally like the depth to the Decepticons, I just feel that the DJD should have not been removed of their horror element (which, yes, hopefully Roberts twists and turns will change that direction)


I am afraid I posted in response to all the "I love it! How cute!" Posts before mine. I don't love it. I don't want my DJD to be cute. I want them to be scary. They can have down time. They can have depth. But things can be dark and still be deep.

Perhaps it's because being a darkly minded person myself, the stark contrast of the scary guy/cute caretaker, doesn't really wash with me. Mainstream cute does not appeal to me.

Dead Metal, thank you for the encouragement to discuss the issue of feminism. I'll see if i'm willing to tackle that after another cup of coffee

[Va'al]

I'm tempted to post the review now, but what I want to say is that all of this talk is amazing.
It's great to see so many thoughts on something that isn't even out yet!

[ctrlFrequency]

I'm tempted to post the review now, but what I want to say is that all of this talk is amazing.
It's great to see so many thoughts on something that isn't even out yet!

Keep resisting, Va'al. Psychout had to trick me into reading the preview (though I don't know if his intention was to trick me... might have been, who knows with that evil mind), I normally avoid, wait til the issue is out, then read these threads. So I can wait ;p

[ArmadaPrime]

Also, note the conspicuous lack of either Kaon or Vos in the pages we've seen, neither of them have even been mentioned, even when referring to Kaon's pet. Is there any particular indication that what we're currently seeing is at the 'current' mtmte time, or even that things within the DJD haven't just changed drastically from when we saw them last? I have honestly no idea how the issue will play out and where it will take us, and I kinda like that.

Huh, I totally didn't spot that in the very first page, Tarn quotes what "Vos used to say" and then laments about how he misses Vos' cynicism. The plot thickens...
(Then again, we don't know for how long Kaon and Vos had been away from the group when they appeared in MTMTE #34, or whether they've actually re-joined them yet. (Unless, they got teleported out by the rest of the DJD or something at the end, I forget)

[Va'al]

I'm tempted to post the review now, but what I want to say is that all of this talk is amazing.
It's great to see so many thoughts on something that isn't even out yet!

Keep resisting, Va'al. Psychout had to trick me into reading the preview (though I don't know if his intention was to trick me... might have been, who knows with that evil mind), I normally avoid, wait til the issue is out, then read these threads. So I can wait ;p

Oh, for sure. Reviews are for a Wednesday, that's my personal schedule.
And I need to finish the TvGIJoe one, anyway.

What I will say, however, is that a lot of the concerns raised so far are, in my opinion, addressed in the issue, one way or another. They may not satisfy all the people who have raised them, and they definitely do not provide answers (this is MTMTE), but they're addressed.

[ctrlFrequency]

I'm tempted to post the review now, but what I want to say is that all of this talk is amazing.
It's great to see so many thoughts on something that isn't even out yet!

Keep resisting, Va'al. Psychout had to trick me into reading the preview (though I don't know if his intention was to trick me... might have been, who knows with that evil mind), I normally avoid, wait til the issue is out, then read these threads. So I can wait ;p

Oh, for sure. Reviews are for a Wednesday, that's my personal schedule.
And I need to finish the TvGIJoe one, anyway.

What I will say, however, is that a lot of the concerns raised so far are, in my opinion, addressed in the issue, one way or another. They may not satisfy all the people who have raised them, and they definitely do not provide answers (this is MTMTE), but they're addressed.

Va'al's a tease (not a surprise )

[Va'al]

Va'al's a tease (not a surprise )

I do burlesque for a small tip. With robot cosplay.

[Dead Metal]

We're on a roll here aren't we?

Something I should probably point out....

Do I think that the DJD should be so 1 dimensional that all they do is kill, and that they're personalities stop there?

No.

Even the worst possible person you can imagine had something normal about them. Some sliver of humanity. It did not make them less a monster.

Do I think that part of the DJD needed to be revealed?

No. It demystifies them, makes them less scary because we know they aren't real, they're characters. The DJD isn't coming to my house to get me. Humanizing them makes them less scary.

We did though in the case of the DJD, remember one of them is actually an Autobot spy that feeds information to the Autobots, this has become more and more unbelievable with each new appearance, we need to look behind the "we are horrors" image of the current DJD to make the Autobot spy more believable and to get more clues as to who it is, something that's been eating away at us even before MTMTE started.

When we don't have something cute to relate to the characters, it makes fiction more terrrifying.

To use Psychout's Twilight example, I remember a time when (before the stupid Interview With a Vampire movie) vampires were freaking scary. They have been humanized in fiction to the point where they are procreating with humans. Heavily romanticized, they'very lost their fangs and are wispy teenage idols. But 30 years ago, not so much.

Humanize fictional demons and they loose their power.

Twilight has nothing to do with the DJD, this is a group that was introduced to us as being interchangeable, their names and identities aren't theirs, they inherit them from the member that died using them.
We already knew they were more than just one note killing machines, this issue finally gives as more of an insight into who they are.

As for Vampires, they have been developing down this stupid line ever since Bram Stoker's Dracula introduced us to Dracula, the immortal undead king who cries out for his long lost love he seeks to replace with the vapid piece of cardboard that is Mina.
Twilight just went and made it full on teen girl porn.

One thing that should be considered is the little description on the second page:

"Once they were the most feared of Megatron's soldiers, now..."

hmmmm.

Erm, you did notice how Megatron deflected and is now an Autobot, and how this issue is likely going to have Vos and Kaon rejoin to give Tarn, Helex and Tesarus the "good" news that Megatron, their idol, has revoked everything they believe in to be right? The solicitation even says

RETURN OF THE D.J.D.! A punishment squad created by MEGATRON to hunt down dissidents, turncoats and cowards—no one believes more passionately in the DECEPTICON cause than the D.J.D. So what happens when they discover their founder has joined the Autobots? (Clue: it’s not pretty.)

Pretty sure that that's what that is referring to, since they're no-longer Megatron's soldiers.