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JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:An interesting case he is, Hun-Gurrr is not a retool in the traditional sense.

But there is no traditional sense. A toy is either new or based on a previous mold. Thats all its ever been. The only difference is that now a toy can be changed a lot more when comparing it to the original toy its based on, but the degree of change doesnt really matter, it never did.

Does one believe Hun Gurr to be based on the Silverbolt mold? Its a yes or no question.

william-james88 wrote:Does one believe Hun Gurr to be based on the Silverbolt mold? Its a yes or no question.

I do, as a matter of fact, but only indirectly in general design, not directly via any reused parts like Dreadwind and BlackwingDarkwing are. That's where I make that distinction for the purposes of my lists, noting direct mold predecessors.

It's basically the same case as how Energon Starscream, 2010 Terradive, and FOC Starscream are all physically unique molds whose transformation engineering is all based directly on that of G2 Smokescreen.

Sabrblade wrote:It's basically the same case as how Energon Starscream, 2010 Terradive, and FOC Starscream are all physically unique molds whose transformation engineering is all based directly on that of G2 Smokescreen.

Its really not. the toys you mention dont have the same dimensions and there is 0 proof that a designer based one off the other's actual mold. There are only so many ways to transform a jet that recurring transformations can happen. Its not different than saying that CW Dragstrip is a retool of Cybertron HotShot when their transformation is very similar. But we dont say that, because we know better. So I dont know why we say it about other non related toys. MP Grimlock shares the same transformation to G1 Grimlock and does so directly, but is he a retool? Similar transformations dont mean anything in this scenario.

But with Combiner Wars we have an ecosystem which has been confirmed to have basic designs that can be applied to maximize the design opportinuties, and all handled under the exact same person.

John Warden wrote:When we were launching "Combiner Wars" it was actually a very different time in Transformers. The system was largely unproven and we were actually trying to sell...we were coming off the Thrilling 30 and people that fans were, you know, there was a niche group of an audience. What wound up happening was when we built that line we had to try to...I planned the entire line out in advance and I had to figure out 'Ok, I'm going to reuse these, I only have this much tooling to do this many items', I was trying to spread things out to get the most robust line possible

The same person is working on Power of the Primes making toys that are compatible within both lines. And people keep forgetting, the toys share parts: the combiner ports.

Once again, there is only one question. Do you believe the toy to be based on previous molding?

I do not believe Energon Starscream, 2010 Terradive or FOC Starscream to be made based on the molding design of G2 Smokescreen. And as far as I know, no designer has come out and said they are. So they are not retools to me.

But I am pretty certain that someone totally dug up the CW Silverbolt CAD mold designs and altered them to obtain Hun Gurrr.

william-james88 wrote:But I am pretty certain that someone totally dug up the CW Silverbolt CAD mold designs and altered them to obtain Hun Gurrr.

Entirely possible, but that's really it as far as I'm concerned. I just have him as "based on CW Silverbolt without part reuse" (and not listed as a predecessor as a result).

Look! all I know is that Jazz(& probably 3 other limb bots too) & Starscream use the same combiner system as CW

+ I'm sure that this has been retooled & repainted from one of the CW Arielbots

Ugh. This again???? What does it matter if it's called a retool or not? We all know it has the similar transformation and skeleton. All physical parts are new. So we know what it will be like in hand quality wise. For crying out loud, it's just n unimportant tag that has no significance to anything! Just call it a hunn-grr and leave it be. It's become stupid how many times this keeps coming up, especially when it down matter!

Stuartmaximus wrote:Look! all I know is that Jazz(& probably 3 other limb bots too) & Starscream use the same combiner system as CW

+ I'm sure that this has been retooled & repainted from one of the CW Arielbots

Yeah Stu, that was never up for debate. Everyone knew that from the instant we saw these figures at SDCC.

steals_your_goats wrote:

Stuartmaximus wrote:Look! all I know is that Jazz(& probably 3 other limb bots too) & Starscream use the same combiner system as CW

+ I'm sure that this has been retooled & repainted from one of the CW Arielbots

Yeah Stu, that was never up for debate. Everyone knew that from the instant we saw these figures at SDCC.

Ok

but....moving forward...it'll be interesting to see which of the new molds get reused/repainted ect(yeah I know one of them is Rodimus as Unicronus) but I meant what others will be too?

+ the only one that I can see maybe getting a repaint is Predaking! as Dark Predaking(or Predaking Unicronus)

william-james88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:It's basically the same case as how Energon Starscream, 2010 Terradive, and FOC Starscream are all physically unique molds whose transformation engineering is all based directly on that of G2 Smokescreen.

Its really not. the toys you mention dont have the same dimensions and there is 0 proof that a designer based one off the other's actual mold. There are only so many ways to transform a jet that recurring transformations can happen. Its not different than saying that CW Dragstrip is a retool of Cybertron HotShot when their transformation is very similar. But we dont say that, because we know better. So I dont know why we say it about other non related toys. MP Grimlock shares the same transformation to G1 Grimlock and does so directly, but is he a retool? Similar transformations dont mean anything in this scenario.

Are... Are you under the misbelief that I think of Hun-Gurrr as a retool of Silverbolt?

william-james88 wrote:I do not believe Energon Starscream, 2010 Terradive or FOC Starscream to be made based on the molding design of G2 Smokescreen. And as far as I know, no designer has come out and said they are. So they are not retools to me.

Where in my post did I say that they were?

The name of this game is "shared engineering".

I do think people worry about retooling because it often seem like they end up buying the same toy several times, which is a fair criticism. However in lines meant to more heavily interact with each others, especially as mix-and-match combiner limbs such level of similarity is not only a necessary evil but flat out required. One could argue that the issue is more that they didn't change some of these figures enough, as Combiner Wars had quite a few who were just flat recolors. Those who come to mind as 'cheap retools' would be Hasbro's Blastoff, Scattershot and Nosecone.

But then again that line also had some more impressive retooling such as Onslaught into Hot Spot (or was it the other way around?) or the Rook and Swindle/Hound designs. A 'reshelling' into a completely different visual design will certainly alleviate some concerns, but it doesn't change the fact CW certainly had a few figures where they simply didn't bother to even try to make it look remotely like the original figure, prefering to just recolor and maybe slap on a new head. I'd say the most obvious and overused of such mold was the Alpha Bravo mold where they flat out didn't even bother slightly reshelling the chopper, resulting in a rescue helicopter and military choppers look identical except for color.

I do believe it is those cases which make people turn their nose at retools.

Skritz wrote:
I do believe it is those cases which make people turn their nose at retools.

Yes, in fact there's 3 cases :

- Good retool
- Lazy retool
- bad retool

There's retools which mades sense and works pretty well, but there's also some retools which are forced too much and doesn't works at all.

I think we can agree that all retools of TR Blurr for example works pretty well for example.
Some like you said, hotspot into onslaught was more than ok. These are good retools.

When talking about Silverbolt mold, Cyclonus ends surprisingly well, while Scattershot was forcing too much a character which dosn't fit the mold. (and of course ended badly).

And it's the same with Hun-Grr. Even if it's not the same mold it's at least the same autocad file, and it's clearly pushing to far a mold which doesn't fit at all, ending with lot of undercarriage and disproportionned parts. This is clearly a bad retool (or reautocading if you want). That's why there's so much debate here.

Same for inferno, where the only retool is the head, not even the chest plate. That's the laziest retool of all.


There's less debate about Dreadwing and Darkwing, because there's effort, good retooling.. and in the end it works.

Skritz wrote:I do think people worry about retooling because it often seem like they end up buying the same toy several times, which is a fair criticism. However in lines meant to more heavily interact with each others, especially as mix-and-match combiner limbs such level of similarity is not only a necessary evil but flat out required. One could argue that the issue is more that they didn't change some of these figures enough, as Combiner Wars had quite a few who were just flat recolors. Those who come to mind as 'cheap retools' would be Hasbro's Blastoff, Scattershot and Nosecone.

But then again that line also had some more impressive retooling such as Onslaught into Hot Spot (or was it the other way around?) or the Rook and Swindle/Hound designs. A 'reshelling' into a completely different visual design will certainly alleviate some concerns, but it doesn't change the fact CW certainly had a few figures where they simply didn't bother to even try to make it look remotely like the original figure, prefering to just recolor and maybe slap on a new head. I'd say the most obvious and overused of such mold was the Alpha Bravo mold where they flat out didn't even bother slightly reshelling the chopper, resulting in a rescue helicopter and military choppers look identical except for color.

I do believe it is those cases which make people turn their nose at retools.

Bring on the retools, even lazy redecos. If it allows for more figures to be released, I'm all for it.

I have no issues with it. The shared engineering cuts costs.

Re-tool. Extensive Re-tool. Doesn't matter to me.

Apparently I've purchased Blurr 4 times (Blurr, SDCC Brainstorm, Walgreens Brainstorm, Arcee), Dead End 5 times (Streetwise, Prowl, Lightsteed, G2 Brake-neck, G2 Dead End), Offroad 3 times (First Aid, Ironhide, Offroad), and Skydive 4 times (Strafe, G2 Air Raid, G2 Skydive, Fellbat).

Well, not every retool is going to 'work' and, for some, it can be down to subjective taste. For example, while I don't own it I quite like the Cyclonus retool of CW Silverbolt but there are people who don't like it. Not to mention some people who think Cyclonus as a combiner is pants-on-head stupid.

Personally, while I do find Hun-Grr a bit odd-looking I'm still quite tempted to pick him up because of my love for bestial and monstrous Transformers, especially in the event that the combined whole of Abominus and/or the other individual figures end up looking decent enough. Which they very well might. There are such things as a weak component in a combiner team after all but it doesn't necessarily make the whole set worthless: Hun-Grr may very well end up a solid combiner torso even if his beastmode is weak, just as there have been combiner torso which I like as figures but find weak in their torso mode for various reasons. See: Motormaster/Optimus.

Combiner torso and limbs ARE a form of triplechanger, after all, and we all know there is always a mode weaker than the others. Such is the way triplechangers work.

ExciKaiser wrote:Yes, in fact there's 3 cases :

- Good retool
- Lazy retool
- bad retool

[lots of good stuff]

There's less debate about Dreadwing and Darkwing, because there's effort, good retooling.. and in the end it works.

Sorry for clipping but I didnt want to repost everything just to say that i agree with all your points and that I am glad someone is out there who can express themselves better than I can. The discussion on what is a retool doesnt have an end so I much preffer the idea of instead just asking "so what if it is?" and then moving on from there. Something being a retool or even having shared engineering doesnt and shouldnt make it inherently worse, its how the toy is done that matters. Like Voyager Sentinel Prime from DOTM is a lazy ass POS toy and the fact that its a unique mold doesnt score it any points over a toy that may not have unique tooling (like Overlord, who kicks ass).

In the end, it only matters about what you like.

I am curious of something ExciKaiser, would you personally label TR Fort Max as a bad retool or a lazy one? I feel its a bit of both, but probably more towards "bad".

Skritz wrote:Well, not every retool is going to 'work' and, for some, it can be down to subjective taste. For example, while I don't own it I quite like the Cyclonus retool of CW Silverbolt but there are people who don't like it. Not to mention some people who think Cyclonus as a combiner is pants-on-head stupid.

I ended up having 2 versions of that Cyclonus mold, thats how much I love it. And I really didnt think I would, because I was so familiar with Silverbolt. But it turned out really well done and he looks the part, especially in vehicle mode. Plus the robo kibble under a cybertronian jet works way better than under a realistic looking concord. If you are able to get him and have the money for him, I truly recomend that Cyclonus.

I'd say that Fort Max was a lazy retool coz they could've gone further and gave us a proper Geewun city mode(yeah yeah I know there's an argument to be made that this one was inspired by an alternate city mode that the Geewun had taken), no hip canons(even though an upgrade kit has sorted that now), still no Gasket/Grommet=Cog(yeah yeah...i know Metroplex didn't come with Sixgun & Slammer! although a 3p company eventually did a Sixgun), Max originally didn't come with a sword either! which was later corrected, same with his big gun(which has since been corrected by some 3p company) luckily with Grand Maximus...he comes with a Pretender Shell for the TM(granted no Shell for Cerebros....YET? I think there's one happening though) although the figure still has the same omissions as the original TR one(no Hip Canons, Sword, Big Gun, Gasket/Grommet=Cog and no Geewun city mode) although if you have those...you could always move the upgrade kits across! but the paint apps on those'll probably look wrong on him.

moving forward...Trypticon doesn't come with Brunt, Takara Tomy didn't repaint him as Gigastorm! but chose to fix the hip ratchet issue instead, nor did they choose to apply different paint apps for the Takara Tomy release, he(both Hasbro and Takara releases) doesn't come with radar dishes and weapons(the accessories that you plugged into either the city or battlestation modes! although reprolabels provide radar dishes when you order labels for him from them)

so it's also concerning as to what Scorponok and Omega Supreme WON'T have with it? will Scorponok NOT come with Fasttrack? will there be accessories that also WON'T come with the figure as standard? that came with the original

although it's hard to imagine Omega not coming with all of his parts + he didn't have much in the way of accessories(extra guns/weapons, small figures ect)

oh and maybe no Black Zarak and Sentinel Robot repaints! depending on what Takara Tomy decide to do

+ I think it's become a prerequisite nowadays to expect 3p companies to provide upgrades for glaring omissions(stuff you'd normally expect to come with the figure...ect) with figures from Hasbro and Takara Tomy

Stuartmaximus wrote:so it's also concerning as to what Scorponok and Omega Supreme WON'T have with it? will Scorponok NOT come with Fasttrack? will there be accessories that also WON'T come with the figure as standard? that came with the original

I can't see them leaving anything out of Omega Supreme given that every one of his base parts were used in his robot mode. He had no extras.

Btw I just wanna pick the staffs brains here for a mo...going forward...what banner or title do any figures(Scorponok, Grand Maximus, Omega Supreme ect) released come under?(ie apart from the obvious releases which are POTP)

now...Grand could also come under Legends(if it doesn't as standard)

but I would've thought that most(not all = Legends) of the official licensed figures released would come under Power Of The Primes as from December(as far as we know) they're supposed to be releasing the figures then....another quick query?...where in the world do you think they'll get released FIRST? I do recollect that the first wave of Combiner Wars were released in the UK before SOME other countries

william-james88 wrote:I am curious of something ExciKaiser, would you personally label TR Fort Max as a bad retool or a lazy one? I feel its a bit of both, but probably more towards "bad".

Hard to say lazy, there's lot of work on the retooling, we're more in the "forced too much" a mold clearly not adapted, which ends badly. (the original mold not being awesome either if you want my opinion)

The transformation is lazy, but that's different.

Burn wrote:I can't see them leaving anything out of Omega Supreme given that every one of his base parts were used in his robot mode. He had no extras.

I'm really torn on this, as Omega Supreme is obviously my favorite character of all time. I cant see Hasbro doing a better job than FT Terminus Giganticus, which is a thing of beauty, despite it being way out of my price range, and I'll probably never get it. The original was completely a parts former, sand the tank which actually transformed a bit. I don't mind parts formers, but I know some people are not thrilled by them. Keeping the spirit of the original, while allowing it to transform somewhat, and keeping it at a reasonable price is not something I'm sure Hasbro can pull off.

Remember, --All customers want 3 things - Good, Fast, and Inexpensive. Unfortunately we only get to pick 2....

I'm also not certain we will get another Titan Class figure to finish POTP. If we do however, I'm not sure how Scorponok or Omega Supreme could fit into the line.

Every Wave 1 figure is up for pre-order on Kapow (UK) right now as bundles, though those prices are scaring the s*it out of me. £100 for all four deluxes; does that mean deluxes are gonna be £25 each from now on?

https://www.kapowtoys.co.uk/transformer ... rimes.html

Once PotP is out in stores, I'll have to wait 1-2 months for my local stores to catch up only to arrive there with only shelf-warmers left, as usual.

Kurona wrote:Every Wave 1 figure is up for pre-order on Kapow (UK) right now as bundles, though those prices are scaring the s*it out of me. £100 for all four deluxes; does that mean deluxes are gonna be £25 each from now on?

https://www.kapowtoys.co.uk/transformer ... rimes.html

£22 for 3 Prime Masters?! £50 for 4 Legends?!
I know kapow have a mark up, but this is extracting the urine.

o.supreme wrote:I'm also not certain we will get another Titan Class figure to finish POTP. If we do however, I'm not sure how Scorponok or Omega Supreme could fit into the line.

I'm fairly certain we will not. I'm assuming the 6 wave format, assign 3 months to each wave, and July being the typical release month for the Titan class with only 1 titan per year. CW started in Jan 2015 and ran through June 2016. Only 1 July in there, only 1 titan. TR started in July 2017 with Fort Max, and runs through Dec 2017. 2 Julys, 2 titans. PotP will start Jan 2018 and run through June 2019, 1 July, 1 titan. Which pretty much means that whatever comes after PotP will start out with a Titan pretty early if they keep the July release.

Disclaimer: Even if Hasbro shaves some time off the TR re-release wave 6 (*except Slugslinger) and starts PotP in Dec 2018, that still wouldn't put another titan in PotP.

Makes sense. Either way, I hope we get a full 6 waves from PotP. TR seems a little shortchanged since it *technically* only got 5 waves.