The Energon Pub

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

You answered your own question there. If you want a figure to be done in the style of a certain line, you can't just pick and choose the properties of that line, you have to apply them all.

Ah. Was that an edit-to-add, or did I somehow miss it when I quoted? I don't remember seeing it before.
Regardless, that's not how it works. If SIEGE/ER Astrotrain had been designed in the style of Titans Return, Hasbro would still charge the WFC Leader price for him.

[Rodimus Prime]

You answered your own question there. If you want a figure to be done in the style of a certain line, you can't just pick and choose the properties of that line, you have to apply them all.

Ah. Was that an edit-to-add, or did I somehow miss it when I quoted? I don't remember seeing it before.
Regardless, that's not how it works. If SIEGE/ER Astrotrain had been designed in the style of Titans Return, Hasbro would still charge the WFC Leader price for him.

It was an edit, but not after your post. I decided to add to it while you were typing your response, probably. As for how it works, once again, you have your view, I have mine. Is there even a difference in price for Titans Return leaders and WFC leaders? Because if not, the whole point is moot. This whole thing is not about what Hasbro does, it's about how it's received. You are defending their decision to make Astrotrain the way they did, I'm stating why I don't approve of it. 2 different opinions. And that's fine. But honestly, we might as well move on, because mine won't change.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

You answered your own question there. If you want a figure to be done in the style of a certain line, you can't just pick and choose the properties of that line, you have to apply them all.

Ah. Was that an edit-to-add, or did I somehow miss it when I quoted? I don't remember seeing it before.
Regardless, that's not how it works. If SIEGE/ER Astrotrain had been designed in the style of Titans Return, Hasbro would still charge the WFC Leader price for him.

It was an efit, but not after your post. I decided to add to it while you were typing your response, probably. As for how it works, once again, you have your view, I have mine. Is there even a difference in price for Titans Return leaders and WFC leaders? Because if not, the whole point is moot.

Yes, there is. In Titans Return, Leaders were $41. In WFC? $50.
And figures of a certain size class get priced the exact same as the rest of that size class for that line. That price uniformity is a basic principle of the size class system.

[Rodimus Prime]

Yeah, $41 would be a more reasonable price for a voyager figure with extra crap than $50. $30 for the figure, $10 for the other unnecessary-but-still-useful stuff.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Yeah, $41 would be a more reasonable price for a voyager figure with extra crap than $50. $30 for the figure, $10 for the other unnecessary-but-still-useful stuff.

Okay, but 1. Voyagers were cheaper too during Titans Return - $22 if memory serves. So the price difference between the size classes hasn't really changed between lines.
2. What I had asked you all those replies ago was: what would you rather have for $50 (what a neo-G1 Leader costs nowadays): SIEGE/ER Astrotrain as he is (an enhanced Voyager, plenty of meat on his bones and in scale with his fellow Decepticon Triple Changers, with the tender and accessories making up the rest of the difference)... or what amounts to the Astrotrain equivalent of CW Thundercracker and TR Soundwave.

[Rodimus Prime]

Yeah, $41 would be a more reasonable price for a voyager figure with extra crap than $50. $30 for the figure, $10 for the other unnecessary-but-still-useful stuff.

Okay, but 1. Voyagers were cheaper too during Titans Return - $22 if memory serves. So the price difference between the size classes hasn't really changed between lines.

But as he is now, ER Astrotrain has more than what a TR figure did. Taking just the figures, I would choose ER AT over TR AT for the same amount of money. Not because there's more plastic involved, but because ER AT appeals to me. So yeah, I would buy him for $22. But then the tender wouldn't be worth the $19 it takes for him to get to $41.

2. What I had asked you all those replies ago was: what would you rather have for $50 (what a neo-G1 Leader costs nowadays): SIEGE/ER Astrotrain as he is (an enhanced Voyager, plenty of meat on his bones and in scale with his fellow Decepticon Triple Changers, with the tender and accessories making up the rest of the difference)... or what amounts to the Astrotrain equivalent of CW Thundercracker and TR Soundwave.

That depends on what the "Astrotrain equivalent" is. Are you asking if I would buy an Astrotrain by himself if he was the size of TR Soundwave? Probably not. For the same reason I didn't buy any of the CW leaders besides Ultra Magnus: they weren't worth the money to me. The CW seekers as well as TR Soundwave should have been voyagers. Just like ER AT should have been sold by himself as a voyager.

[HunterGreen2005]

hello

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

That depends on what the "Astrotrain equivalent" is. Are you asking if I would buy an Astrotrain by himself if he was the size of TR Soundwave?

Basically, yes. More specifically I was asking, which do you think would be better value for the Leader price: WFC Astrotrain as we got him? Or Astrotrain ballooned to T30/CW/TR size with all the warts doing so entails?

The CW seekers as well as TR Soundwave should have been voyagers. Just like ER AT should have been sold by himself as a voyager.

Well, the CW Seekers couldn't have been Voyagers, for two reasons: One is that they were the alternate tooling of T30 Jetfire. The other is that the Voyager price point in that line was reserved for combiner torsos. The Leader price point was basically used as a dumping ground for T30 overflow. But they are still oversized "meh" figures, just like CW Megs and his lazy Armada Megatron cosplay version... Part of me wonders if maybe doing the torso bots as "Voyager with accessories" Leaders while the actual Voyager price point was the dumping ground would have been better.
TR Soundwave at least has the saving graces of needing to accommodate the upsized Recordicons, and providing a great base mode (probably the best in the line).

Hm... How would you feel about paying $40 (which is where the Ultra class would be price-wise if resurrected today) for an Astrotrain with basically the same core robot as SIEGE/ER, but a thinner, lighter tender/launchpad and few-to-no extra guns?

...Also, something occurred to me as I was writing this: They may have made WFC Astrotrain a Leader-class toy, with the accompanying boost in mass and accessories, to further distinguish him from Titans Return Astrotrain. Much like how ER Optimus is further distinguished from the SIEGE Voyager by having the trailer.

[Rodimus Prime]

That depends on what the "Astrotrain equivalent" is. Are you asking if I would buy an Astrotrain by himself if he was the size of TR Soundwave?

Basically, yes. More specifically I was asking, which do you think would be better value for the Leader price: WFC Astrotrain as we got him? Or Astrotrain ballooned to T30/CW/TR size with all the warts doing so entails?

Well, to me WFC Astrotrain isn't worth the leader price. That's what this whole discussion is about. I think I would have paid $41 for a leader TR Astrotrain. But not $50.

How would you feel about paying $40 (which is where the Ultra class would be price-wise if resurrected today) for an Astrotrain with basically the same core robot as SIEGE/ER, but a thinner, lighter tender/launchpad and few-to-no extra guns?

WFC Astrotrain as he is now is worth $40 IMO. If the tender or weaponry were reduced in any way, the price would have to be reduced as well.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

That depends on what the "Astrotrain equivalent" is. Are you asking if I would buy an Astrotrain by himself if he was the size of TR Soundwave?

Basically, yes. More specifically I was asking, which do you think would be better value for the Leader price: WFC Astrotrain as we got him? Or Astrotrain ballooned to T30/CW/TR size with all the warts doing so entails?

Well, to me WFC Astrotrain isn't worth the leader price. That's what this whole discussion is about. I think I would have paid $41 for a leader TR Astrotrain. But not $50.

Well, unfortunately for all of us the Leader price is $50 now. So whether they'd done Astrotrain as he is or done him in the T30/CW/TR style (that is, huge but hollow)... they'd be charging you $50 for him. If any of the T30 through PotP Leaders were to be reissued in the current line? They'd be $50 as well. It sucks that we've seen that much price creep since Titans Return (especially with how little plastic a lot of CHUG molds have compared to UT and movie 1-2 figures of the same size classes), but we don't have the power to push the prices back down so them's the breaks. The choices are either stop collecting, pray for sales, or swallow the bitter pill because you'd rather pay the extra $8-$9 at retail then pay double to triple the new price on eBay later on.

How would you feel about paying $40 (which is where the Ultra class would be price-wise if resurrected today) for an Astrotrain with basically the same core robot as SIEGE/ER, but a thinner, lighter tender/launchpad and few-to-no extra guns?

WFC Astrotrain as he is now is worth $40 IMO. If the tender or weaponry were reduced in any way, the price would have to be reduced as well.

Well, as he is now, he is in the mass range of a Leader class figure. There's no two ways about that. And since a WFC Leader class figure is worth $50 in the opinion of Hasbro's bean-counters and shareholders and this is a seller's market... he'd have to shed plastic to get his price reduced.

[Rodimus Prime]

Just because Hasbro sells it for $50, doesn't mean I have to accept it for that. And I don't. Which is why I didn't (and won't) buy one. That's the whole point of my opinion on this. To me he's not worth $50, so I will not pay that much. End of story. If you think he's worth it, great. Get him, it's your money. I won't tell you how to spend it.

[Hellscream9999]

hello

'sup

[ZeroWolf]

As a funny coda to this, just think of fans ten-twenty years from now when they reflect on Earthrise.
"Those where the days, you'd get your moneys worth on them, unlike in Generations [insert line name] now. Not when there asking $40 for a deluxe!"
"Especially the leader Class, you used to get something good then, not now it's just 10 legion class and a flimsy playset for $80"
"Don't get me started on the Titan Class..."

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Frankly, the only Leaders I think are really, really worth the price tag rn are Studio Series DOTM Optimus and ROTF Scavenger.

But I can still accept paying $50 for WFC Astrotrain as being worth my while, because he is a Leader-class just like Ultra Magnus, and that's what we're stuck paying for Leaders these days... Leaders still have enough flash to them that it's less of a bitter pill to me than paying $30 for Voyagers.

[Rodimus Prime]

Like I said, it's all about what your money is worth to you.

And ZeroWolf, I was actually thinking the same thing. I thought how much will fans tolerate as far as price hikes go? Sooner or later, we'll be paying $50 for a voyager, $30 for a deluxe. It's not as far off as we might think. I think when that happens, it'll be a reality check not only for most fans, but for Hasbro as well.

[ZeroWolf]

Like I said, it's all about what your money is worth to you.

And ZeroWolf, I was actually thinking the same thing. I thought how much will fans tolerate as far as price hikes go? Sooner or later, we'll be paying $50 for a voyager, $30 for a deluxe. It's not as far off as we might think. I think when that happens, it'll be a reality check not only for most fans, but for Hasbro as well.

Something will have to give, unless income raises drastically to compensate, it'll be unsustainable. In a couple of years (probably in time for whatever follows War for Cybertron) the prices will rise.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Question for those who have Astrotrain already: How wide is he? And how tall is the tender?

I ask because I'd love to make train cars to complement him in advance.

[TF-fan kev777]

hello

Hello, How's it going?

(Anything is better than this endless debate on what should, could, or won't ever be acceptable to mine or anyone else's view of what a voyager or leader should be.)

[Ironhidensh]

Titans Return Leaders were $49.99 at retail in most shops, though I believe Walmart would sell them for $44.99.


Leaders haven't been $40 since around the time of the second or third movie.

[Nemesis Destron]

Though I feel that everyone has to take a beating, these prices as of late TF lines we all just have to take a beating 'nuff said.


That being said it's a shame that those who disigned and engineered Astrotrain couldn't have made the Tender into outer armor/shell to go around the tail end of shuttle mode. Still a great figure that replaced my Henkei Astrotrain as my Neo G1.

[Gauntlet101010]

I thought about it and I'll grab Astrotrain too. He was one of my childhood TFs and one I definitely want the best version of. Even if TFs are getting ... kinda pricy these days.

Maybe someone out there will make fillers for the tail end of the shuttle because it's rough.

[Nemesis Destron]

Maybe someone out there will make fillers for the tail end of the shuttle because it's rough.

I so hope for that!

[Ironhidensh]

Some food for thought.....




Movie Prime weighs in at 1# 7.2oz and retailed at $39.99 (granted, it was over 10 years ago)

Earthrise Prime is 9.2oz and has a retail of $49.99




It maybe less a statement on Hasbro's greed, and more on rampant greed driven inflation across all boards, but still, there you go.

[Wolfman Jake]

The gap between Transformers toys made specifically for kids and those made to appeal to adult fans and collectors is widening. There was never a distinction before, but now, Transformers made for kids are becoming less complex and cutting plastic usage and paint apps to keep costs down and sizes up. Conversely, the stuff from Generations and the Studio Series has become smaller, but more intricate in terms of complexity of transformation, sculpting, screen accuracy, paint applications, etc. This has all come at the cost of...well...cost.

As meaty and satisfying as a lot of Unicron Trilogy toys were, particularly those of Cybertron, they were far simpler toys with loads of play gimmicks, like Minicons or Cyber Planet Keys that deployed spring-loaded extra weapons or other surprises. They were from a time when there wasn't a distinction between what kids want and what adults want from Transformers. They could afford to use more plastic, because it cost far less to develop those simpler toys, even with gimmicks attached to them.

What we are getting now for adult collectors are "mini Masterpieces." Masterpiece used to be the "adult" collector line, but now it's become more of a luxury line, with an emphasis on screen accuracy never before seen in transformers toys, calling for incredibly complex transformation schemes, to get the looks right. Generations and Studio Series are approaching the complexity of the Masterpiece line at a smaller scale, so of course the figures are going to be a bit more fragile. There are now many more small parts that go into making these figures look "right" in both modes, something that Hasbro doesn't see as a priority for the "kids" lines.

Always keep in mind as well the effects of inflation. Many of us who grew up with G1 began being able to buy our own toys around the time of Beast Wars and the Unicron Trilogy. Transformers toys then were fully plastic, used lots of cost-cutting ball joints, and generally weren't as faithful to their media appearance. The production costs were down compared to the beginning of the franchise, when a lot of the legacy Diaclone and Microman stuff still used die-cast metal and rubber tires. G1 toys were expensive, almost as much (given inflation) as Generations and Studio Series toys are now. We don't remember that since our parents bought G1 Transformers for us, or they were given to us as gifts. I didn't get a lot of Transformers as a kid in the 80's because they cost a lot of money. Regular plastic action figures cost a LOT less than Transformers then.

In short, Transformers toys have come full circle at this point. They started off as higher end toys, with authentic vehicle or alternate modes, die-cast metal, chromed parts, rubber tires, clear plastic windows, etc. Later on, when toy technology advanced and the cost of using plastic over metal was much more economical, production costs dropped and so did retail prices. Now we're back figures that look very close to their media appearances in robot mode, alt mode, or both, requiring new engineering techniques and transformation schemes to get the looks just right in an era where plastic material production is getting more expensive again, making Transformers as we want them higher-end toys once more.

[Tuned Agent]

hello