The Energon Pub

[Tuned Agent]

I'm personally fine with leaders being voyagers with extra stuff, but the extra stuff needs to make the figure feel worthy of the $50 price point. I think the recent leaders have been rather hit-and miss in that regard.

[aronjlove]

As someone who is relatively new to the collecting and bought both leader-class Rodimus Prime and Rodimus Unicronus from PotP, that leader-class was trash. Big out of scale figures with limited articulation so it became nothing but a statue on the shelf. I thought they would be cool to make some scenes or even a stop motion animation from but nope. Even the smaller un-evolved figure wasn't as posable as the Titan's Return Hot Rod. I happily pay full price for current leaders class figures because they can actually do stuff, like hold a pose or look good in motion. And I keep hearing about size or weight but Earthrise Prime is the most solid figure I have ever held in my hands. I showed him off to coworkers and the first thing they all said was how heavy he is. We are getting almost-MP level engineering and complexity with mass-market prices so I'm definitely pleased with all of my Siege and Earthrise purchases.

To be fair, the articulation was also limited during that point of collecting. Very few figures had wrist swivels, fewer had ankle pivots, and waist swivels were practically non-existant unless it was there for transformation. Now we're getting all the swivels we want on many figures, with the only notable example of a WFC figure lacking articulation is Apeface because of his lack of waist and wrists

Mmmmm, swivels. Seriously though, that's what I'm personally paying for. Figures that can move like the animation which is created to sell them.

[Rodimus Prime]

TR Astrotrain is taller, but loses out on value big-time with that trainwreck of a locomotive mode.

Pun intended? but I agree, the train mode is crap.

Also, if the WFC figure had been a Voyager... he would no doubt have been diminished enough (either on accessories or in some other regard) that you'd end up spending the extra $20 on a 3P add-on kit and thus effectively be paying $50 for him anyway.

Not necessarily. This is my whole point to begin with. The core bot is a voyager as it is. Take away the tender, which is unnecessary to the transformation, and maybe all but 1 gun, and you've got a voyager figure! No tender also means a smaller box, bubble and instruction booklet, so that reduces cost to voyager price, I would think.

Do you think designing Leader-class toys that way is a ripoff?

I don't think that's applicable, because back then there were no class sizes, at least no leader class. If there had been, we don't know if Prime and Megatron (or their Diaclone counterparts/predecessors) would have been made differently.

Regardless of whether the fiction (which was designed after the toys, not the other way around!) actually used the cab robot much or at all, it was still a part of the toy rather than the toy going right from the vehicle mode to the super robot with no interim stage. Do you consider that sort of design a ripoff?

That depends on if which version you consider the complete figure. I consider the combined mode the complete figure, so it wasn't a ripoff. With Astrotrain, I consider the core bot the complete figure, and the tender unnecessary extra. It's fine to have it, but it shouldn't be required. Like I said before, it would have been nice to have an option to buy Astrotrain by himself. But that's what eBay is for, I guess. I don't begrudge anyone who wants and likes the tender. I just don't like it being forced on me in terms of the price.

[ZeroWolf]

I think Astrotrain would be thinner and have fewer parts of sold as a voyager (that's even without the tender and guns, as that plastic amount wouldn't make up the price difference alone.)

The core figure itself would have lost something, people have commented that he's all around heavier then other Voyagers, you wouldn't have got that as a voyager. Still, best case scenario is just buying in a sale, given his appearance in the last wave of Siege, Astrotrain may shelf warm, meaning more likely to go on a sale.

[Jelze Bunnycat]

I think Astrotrain would be thinner and have fewer parts of sold as a voyager (that's even without the tender and guns, as that plastic amount wouldn't make up the price difference alone.)

The core figure itself would have lost something, people have commented that he's all around heavier then other Voyagers, you wouldn't have got that as a voyager. Still, best case scenario is just buying in a sale, given his appearance in the last wave of Siege, Astrotrain may shelf warm, meaning more likely to go on a sale.

... except as far as the stores are concerned, Siege and Earthrise are the same. Meaning if they put a Siege assortment on clearance, the equivalent Earthrise one has to go as well. In other words, they'd have to put individual items on special, which can be difficult on a logistic level.

[ZeroWolf]

I actually meant putting the Earthrise one on sale not yet mind but if one is patient enough..

[Jelze Bunnycat]

I actually meant putting the Earthrise one on sale not yet mind but if one is patient enough..

Woops, my bad. Siege Astrotrain never appeared in my area, but the ER one just did. Choices, choices...

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

TR Astrotrain is taller, but loses out on value big-time with that trainwreck of a locomotive mode.

Pun intended? but I agree, the train mode is crap.

Also, if the WFC figure had been a Voyager... he would no doubt have been diminished enough (either on accessories or in some other regard) that you'd end up spending the extra $20 on a 3P add-on kit and thus effectively be paying $50 for him anyway.

Not necessarily. This is my whole point to begin with. The core bot is a voyager as it is. Take away the tender, which is unnecessary to the transformation, and maybe all but 1 gun, and you've got a voyager figure!

No, I'm pretty sure that as ZeroWolf said he'd have to shed more mass than that. He'd be noticeably gappier, thinner overall in terms of plastic, and possibly missing some transformation steps.

Do you think designing Leader-class toys that way is a ripoff?

I don't think that's applicable, because back then there were no class sizes, at least no leader class. If there had been, we don't know if Prime and Megatron (or their Diaclone counterparts/predecessors) would have been made differently.

There weren't strict size classes in Diaclone and Micro Change, but Battle Convoy and P38 Gun Robo U.N.C.L.E. were still big-price robot toys where most of the price tag is accessories that don't integrate into the robot mode. And in Transformers, they basically formed a crude Leader-class, since the IRL reason they designated the U.N.C.L.E. P38 as the Decepticon Leader was that he could be sold as Optimus' same-price counterpart on the "bad guy" side.
And Earthrise Optimus is the same basic thing in modern toy form.

Regardless of whether the fiction (which was designed after the toys, not the other way around!) actually used the cab robot much or at all, it was still a part of the toy rather than the toy going right from the vehicle mode to the super robot with no interim stage. Do you consider that sort of design a ripoff?

That depends on if which version you consider the complete figure. I consider the combined mode the complete figure, so it wasn't a ripoff.

So, you don't think having a Leader-class toy be a smaller figure bulked up with add-on armor (as opposed to going directly from vehicle mode to a single large robot mode) is a ripoff... because you consider the combined mode the complete figure?

With Astrotrain, I consider the core bot the complete figure, and the tender unnecessary extra. It's fine to have it, but it shouldn't be required.

Okay, but that was less about Astrotrain specifically and more about people denouncing WFC Leaders in general as "Voyagers with accessories" as if that was an invalid use of the price point.

Like I said before, it would have been nice to have an option to buy Astrotrain by himself. But that's what eBay is for, I guess. I don't begrudge anyone who wants and likes the tender. I just don't like it being forced on me in terms of the price.

Well, you're not just getting the tender, you're getting a lot of weapons and a more solid Astrotrain core figure. And would you rather pay $50 for an oversize Astrotrain with one gun, no tender, and big hollows?
I think making a more solid Astrotrain with lots of guns and a tender for his locomotive mode that also turned into something for his shuttle mode was a clever way to give us another Decepticon at the Leader price point, and one that was a bit cleaner than Shockwave.

A Voyager option would be convenient for people like you, but less so for HasTak. And would probably have to be an online exclusive. I'm pretty sure you'll soon enough be able to find a tenderless AT being pawned on eBay by someone who wanted a second tender for a bigger launchpad - or failing that, be able to pawn your own tender to such a person and make up some of the difference.

Although I hope to talk you around on the tender's value. The way I see it, having a tender that turns into a launch pad makes him not just a solid CHUG Astrotrain.. but Astrotrain as he should have been; a complete version that fans have been robbed of for 34 years.
When I say it feels like the accessory the 1986 toy should have come with but didn't, I'm being literal. Because not only does the lack of a tender make Astrotrain's engine mode incomplete and undermines the disguise by leaving the rocket nozzles exposed... two of 1986 Astrotrain's rocket nozzles are simple round pegs. Pegs that, on the toy as-is, do nothing. Pegs that very much look like something should connect to them.

[Emerje]

Damn, Sky Lynx finally showed up on Amazon and he sold out as I was finalizing the order. He wasn't discounted or anything, but I'm really banking on the price dropping sometime before release to get a better price thanks to their low price guarantee. Hopefully it becomes available again soon.

Emerje

[Rodimus Prime]

I'm pretty sure that as ZeroWolf said he'd have to shed more mass than that. He'd be noticeably gappier, thinner overall in terms of plastic, and possibly missing some transformation steps.

Maybe, maybe not. Is Astrotrain by himself heavier than Megatron or Starscream?

Earthrise Optimus is the same basic thing in modern toy form.

Not really. The G1 trailer was heftier and larger and looked better. Plus it came with an actual roller. It was worth the extra money. No way in hell is that flimsy piece of plastic we got in ER worth the extra $20 between voyager and leader.

So, you don't think having a Leader-class toy be a smaller figure bulked up with add-on armor (as opposed to going directly from vehicle mode to a single large robot mode) is a ripoff... because you consider the combined mode the complete figure?

In the case of Ultra Magnus and Powermaster Prime, yes. Those were the examples you gave me.

With Astrotrain, I consider the core bot the complete figure, and the tender unnecessary extra. It's fine to have it, but it shouldn't be required.

Okay, but that was less about Astrotrain specifically and more about people denouncing WFC Leaders in general as "Voyagers with accessories" as if that was an invalid use of the price point.

But *I* was talking about Astrotrain specifically. Everyone has his/her own take on it. This is mine.

And would you rather pay $50 for an oversize Astrotrain with one gun, no tender, and big hollows?

No, I would be paying $30 for that. That's my point.

I think making a more solid Astrotrain with lots of guns and a tender for his locomotive mode that also turned into something for his shuttle mode was a clever way to give us another Decepticon at the Leader price point, and one that was a bit cleaner than Shockwave. A Voyager option would be convenient for people like you, but less so for HasTak. And would probably have to be an online exclusive.

That is absolutely fine with me. As long as his price stays $30.

I'm pretty sure you'll soon enough be able to find a tenderless AT being pawned on eBay by someone who wanted a second tender for a bigger launchpad - or failing that, be able to pawn your own tender to such a person and make up some of the difference.

My thoughts exactly.

Although I hope to talk you around on the tender's value. The way I see it, having a tender that turns into a launch pad makes him not just a solid CHUG Astrotrain.. but Astrotrain as he should have been; a complete version that fans have been robbed of for 34 years.
When I say it feels like the accessory the 1986 toy should have come with but didn't, I'm being literal. Because not only does the lack of a tender make Astrotrain's engine mode incomplete and undermines the disguise by leaving the rocket nozzles exposed... two of 1986 Astrotrain's rocket nozzles are simple round pegs. Pegs that, on the toy as-is, do nothing. Pegs that very much look like something should connect to them.

I see the tender's value. My problem is that it's a take-it-or-leave-it for those of us who want Astrotrain. The train mode looks good with the tender, I just don't think it should have been mandatory. Let me ask you this: if Astrotrain was sold by himself with 1 gun for $30 and the tender and extra guns were sold separately for $20, like a deluxe weaponizer, would you buy them both like that? It would still be the same amount of plastic for the same price. But now we would have the option of not buying the tender and spending the extra $20 if we didn't want to.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

I'm pretty sure that as ZeroWolf said he'd have to shed more mass than that. He'd be noticeably gappier, thinner overall in terms of plastic, and possibly missing some transformation steps.

Maybe, maybe not. Is Astrotrain by himself heavier than Megatron or Starscream?

Somebody please check this out for us. He certainly looks to have a bit more meat on his bones than a standard SIEGE Voyager:

I know there's a fair bit of hollowness to Megs and the Seekers, and I'm pretty sure for Soundwave too.

Not sure about Apeface, but still, even discounting the boots...

Earthrise Optimus is the same basic thing in modern toy form.

Not really. The G1 trailer was heftier and larger and looked better. Plus it came with an actual roller. It was worth the extra money. No way in hell is that flimsy piece of plastic we got in ER worth the extra $20 between voyager and leader.

I'm afraid that by modern toy standards, it is. It is that much extra mass. A trailer that was as big in relation as the G1 trailer and had as many features? Would make him Commander class. That is the state of things we are in.

So, you don't think having a Leader-class toy be a smaller figure bulked up with add-on armor (as opposed to going directly from vehicle mode to a single large robot mode) is a ripoff... because you consider the combined mode the complete figure?

In the case of Ultra Magnus and Powermaster Prime, yes. Those were the examples you gave me.

Not the only examples. But what bearing does considering the combined mode to be their complete form, have on whether or not you think Leader-class figures made of a smaller figure that armors up are ripoffs compared to all-in-one Leaders?

And would you rather pay $50 for an oversize Astrotrain with one gun, no tender, and big hollows?

No, I would be paying $30 for that. That's my point.

You don't have a point there, because you're not thinking along the right track. I have enlarged the key word for emphasis. I was asking, mostly in jest, if you'd prefer an Astrotrain done in the style of T30/Combiner Wars/Titans Return Leaders.

I think making a more solid Astrotrain with lots of guns and a tender for his locomotive mode that also turned into something for his shuttle mode was a clever way to give us another Decepticon at the Leader price point, and one that was a bit cleaner than Shockwave.

Again, for the 3rd or 4th time now, I have no problem with other fans liking Astrotrain as he is being sold. I'm not saying they shouldn't like it just because I don't. I just wish he was available for voyager price by himself.

Okay, but 1. I don't think separating the core robot from the tender would be that workable (details below) and 2. The Voyager price point had a lot of slots spoken for, while the Leader price point did not.

A Voyager option would be convenient for people like you, but less so for HasTak. And would probably have to be an online exclusive.

That is absolutely fine with me. As long as his price stays $30.

The thing is, I don't think it was a real possibility. It would doubtless require awkward gating of the molds, and I think that Astrotrain's core figure minus the tender and extra guns ends up working out to being a neo-Ultra rather than a Voyager.

Let me ask you this: if Astrotrain was sold by himself with 1 gun for $30 and the tender and extra guns were sold separately for $20, like a deluxe weaponizer, would you buy them both like that? It would still be the same amount of plastic for the same price. But now we would have the option of not buying the tender and spending the extra$20 if we didn't want to.

[/quote]I think both Astrotrain's core figure and the tender would end up suffering for it. Astrotrain would be limited to strictly Voyager mass, and having to turn into a robot would hurt or even eliminate the tender's ability to form a launchpad for the shuttle. I would buy them both, but I would find them inferior to the version we got.

[Rodimus Prime]

So if I went and bought Astrotrain as he is and split the bot from the tender and put them both up for sale on eBay, for $30 and $20 respectively, you don't think I could sell them easily?

As for a leader class TR Astrotrain, yes I would have paid TR leader price for it, because the bot would have been larger. The extra mass sacrificed for the tender would have went into the bot itself, and it would have been worth the price.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

So if I went and bought Astrotrain as he is and split the bot from the tender and put them both up for sale on eBay, for $30 and $20 respectively, you don't think I could sell them easily?

You could sell them easily. But you are a collector and reseller, not a manufacturer. For Hasbro to sell them separately, they'd have had to be molded separately as a Voyager and a Deluxe, and be subject to Hasbro's price point strictures. And as I've said before, Hasbro is about as flexible as Armada Overload there.

As for a leader class TR Astrotrain, yes I would have paid TR leader price for it, because the bot would have been larger. The extra mass sacrificed for the tender would have went into the bot itself, and it would have been worth the price.

1. The bot would have been larger by too much. You would have an Astrotrain that stood far too tall compared to Blitzwing and Octane, and most likely had some substantial mold hollows on display
2. Would you have paid WFC Leader price for it?

[Emerje]

I can't be the only one that sees this can I?

I don't think it's actually possible to make Meltdown and Half-Track directly out of Bombshock and Growl since the connection would be at the pairs' knees with no room for a peg to connect them. Of course ideally we'd want new molds, but I feel like it's no coincidence that these two were paired together right after releasing Direct-Hit and Power Punch.

Emerje

[aronjlove]

I'm pretty sure that as ZeroWolf said he'd have to shed more mass than that. He'd be noticeably gappier, thinner overall in terms of plastic, and possibly missing some transformation steps.

Maybe, maybe not. Is Astrotrain by himself heavier than Megatron or Starscream?

FWIW, here are some numbers using a digital scale. Neither are wearing any accessories, so Megs is missing both the sword/gun thingy and his fusion cannon while Astro does not have any of the 5 guns on him. Astro is an almost 25 grams heavier figure alone.

[Rodimus Prime]

Thank you. I hate to be a bother, but would it be possible to do his weight against a leader class figure? With or without the tender?

So Astrotrain by himself is bulkier than a WFC voyager. Still not enough for me to validate the leader class spot, even with the tender. He may be heavier than a standard voyager, but he's not bigger. Yes, I understand that mass and size aren't always related, and Hasbro looks at cost of material first. Doesn't mean they have to jam a near-leader class amount of plastic into a voyager-sized figure.

So if I went and bought Astrotrain as he is and split the bot from the tender and put them both up for sale on eBay, for $30 and $20 respectively, you don't think I could sell them easily?

You could sell them easily. But you are a collector and reseller, not a manufacturer. For Hasbro to sell them separately, they'd have had to be molded separately as a Voyager and a Deluxe, and be subject to Hasbro's price point strictures. And as I've said before, Hasbro is about as flexible as Armada Overload there.

But why could I sell them easily? Maybe because there are others like me out there who just want Astrotrain by himself? Okay, so we're finally on the same page. It's not that it can't be or shouldn't be done, it's that Hasbro refuses to do it.

1. The bot would have been larger by too much. You would have an Astrotrain that stood far too tall compared to Blitzwing and Octane, and most likely had some substantial mold hollows on display.

You can't be certain of that. Besides, he's a shuttle and a locomotive. He should be bigger than a tanker and a fighter plane.

2. Would you have paid WFC Leader price for it?

It would have been a TR figure, I would have paid TR leader price for it. Are they the same?

[Sentinel_Primal]

Okay, I think we've gotten to the point where no one is going to change anyone's minds. Quite frankly, I think the best case scenario is that HasTak does Voyager+ and "proper" Leader class figures. Personally, I kind of enjoy the "Size class+" gimmick and wish we could get a Deluxe+ version of Swindle that draws a bit of inspiration from the scene in TFA where Swindle was armed to the teeth, plus a combiner joint so he can replace CW Swindle. Then again, I just want a new Swindle

[Rodimus Prime]

I don't want to change his opinion. I just want him to see that he can't change mine just because it's different than his.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Thank you. I hate to be a bother, but would it be possible too his weight against a leader class figure? With or without the tender?

So Astrotrain by himself is bulkier than a WFC voyager. Still not enough for me to validate the leader class spot, even with the tender. He may be heavier than a standard voyager, but he's not bigger.

The heavier is the overriding factor, though. The price points have (and are set apart by) a fixed allowance of plastic mass. Unless there is a significant saving elsewhere, a figure of a given size class gets that much and not a milligram more. So there's concrete proof that Astrotrain would have had to be thinned and hollowed and possibly shrunk overall to fit within the constraints of a WFC Voyager.

So if I went and bought Astrotrain as he is and split the bot from the tender and put them both up for sale on eBay, for $30 and $20 respectively, you don't think I could sell them easily?

You could sell them easily. But you are a collector and reseller, not a manufacturer. For Hasbro to sell them separately, they'd have had to be molded separately as a Voyager and a Deluxe, and be subject to Hasbro's price point strictures. And as I've said before, Hasbro is about as flexible as Armada Overload there.

Okay, so we're finally on the same page. It's not that it can't be or shouldn't be done, it's that Hasbro refuses to do it.

I disagree with you about shouldn't, because I think doing it that would have made AT and tender alike inferior.

Also, are you going to just ignore what I said about slot availability? That occurred to me as I was typing, and it's something I think is worth considering.

1. The bot would have been larger by too much. You would have an Astrotrain that stood far too tall compared to Blitzwing and Octane, and most likely had some substantial mold hollows on display.

You can't be certain of that. Besides, he's a shuttle and a locomotive. He should be bigger than a tanker and a fighter plane.

1. Given that Blitzwing is the only one of the three whose altmodes aren't wildly out of scale with each other, I think robot mode is the most important scale
2. I can be certain of that, because A. that is how all-in-one Leader figures work these days; that's how they were in T30, CW, TR, and PotP and B. that's the style of Leader I was asking if you'd rather he'd have been done in.

2. Would you have paid WFC Leader price for it?

It would have been a TR figure

Where the slag did you get that from? How would SIEGE Astrotrain having been designed the way TR Leaders were (which is what I was asking) make him be a TR figure?

[Rodimus Prime]

Well, I was willing to let it go, but if you want to keep going... I just hope Burn doesn't get pissed because we're dragging down the thread, even if the subject is related to Earthrise.

So there's concrete proof that Astrotrain would have had to be thinned and hollowed and possibly shrunk overall to fit within the constraints of a WFC Voyager.

But it doesn't have to be that way, it's just 1 option. Take away the tender, make him 25 grams lighter, and you have a proper voyager. OR, take the plastic spent on the tender, put it into the bot, stretch him to Magnus height, and you have a proper leader.

Also, are you going to just ignore what I said about slot availability? That occurred to me as I was typing, and it's something I think is worth considering.

I think it's a poor excuse, not a valid reason to either include, exclude, or alter a figure because of slot availability.

Given that Blitzwing is the only one of the three whose altmodes aren't wildly out of scale with each other, I think robot mode is the most important scale

Fair enough. But were they the same size in robot mode i. G1, which is what WFC is supposedly adhering to?

I can be certain of that, because A. that is how all-in-one Leader figures work these days; that's how they were in T30, CW, TR, and PotP

So just because they were done that way in the past, it can't change? WFC is a different line from Prime Wars. They don't have to adhere to the same rules. Studio Series didn't follow the rules of the previous movies' lines.

that's the style of Leader I was asking if you'd rather he'd have been done in.

2. Would you have paid WFC Leader price for it?

It would have been a TR figure

Where the slag did you get that from? How would SIEGE Astrotrain having been designed the way TR Leaders were (which is what I was asking) make him be a TR figure?

You answered your own question there. If you want a figure to be done in the style of a certain line, you can't just pick and choose the properties of that line, you have to apply them all.

[Tuned Agent]

The picture below was newsed a while back as part of a mass comparison, and it shows Megatron + weapons coming in at 189 g. I also just weighed Thundercracker and he came in at 136 g.

An important thing to remember (that seems to be being forgotten) is that the plastic allotment in a size class is not set on solely a per-figure basis, nor is it consistent for every figure in that size class across the line. Plastic is instead budgeted by either wave or over the entire line (don't remember which, may have changed with the new adherence to scale). Taking this into account, Hasbro easily could have released Astrotrain, with one gun, as a voyager with little to no reduction in his mass, as long as they budgeted him on the large end of the size class.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Well, I was willing to let it go, but if you want to keep going... I just hope Burn doesn't get pissed because we're dragging down the thread, even if the subject is related to Earthrise.

So there's concrete proof that Astrotrain would have had to be thinned and hollowed and possibly shrunk overall to fit within the constraints of a WFC Voyager.

But it doesn't have to be that way, it's just 1 option. Take away the tender, make him 25 grams lighter, and you have a proper voyager. OR, take the plastic spent on the tender, put it into the bot, stretch him to Magnus height, and you have a proper leader.

1. I think that reducing him to a Voyager would result in an inferior figure. Inferior enough to make people want a 3P upgrade and filler kit, which ironically would cost around $20.
2. I think he's a proper Leader class as-is. I don't think the mass has to all go into the bot, and sacrificing the tender (which completes his train mode) to balloon him to Magnus size would be a waste. And it's not like he can't wear the tender pieces as armor.
That reminds me, with my general Leader talk earlier... SIEGE Magnus is one of the figures I've seen people denouncing as "A voyager with accessories", which is one of the things I was trying to address. You evidently aren't in that camp, but some people are.

Also, are you going to just ignore what I said about slot availability? That occurred to me as I was typing, and it's something I think is worth considering.

I think it's a poor excuse, not a valid reason to either include, exclude, or alter a figure because of slot availability.

Well, too bad. That's how the cookie's crumbled since Beast Wars. It's an unfortunate reality of commercial toy development, and it's hit us a number of times. For my money, Astrotrain getting beefed up, given a tender that turns into a launch pad (or boots and a backplate), and kitted out with extra guns to beef him up to Leader is a decidedly more happy outcome than, say, a Leader-class slot that should have gone to Megatron instead going to FREAKING BUMBLEBEE.

Given that Blitzwing is the only one of the three whose altmodes aren't wildly out of scale with each other, I think robot mode is the most important scale

Fair enough. But we're they the same size in robot mode inG1, which is what WFC is supposedly adhering to?

Yes, they were. Both of them were about Seeker size in robot mode usually.

I can be certain of that, because A. that is how all-in-one Leader figures work these days; that's how they were in T30, CW, TR, and PotP

So just because they were done that way in the past, it can't change? WFC is new line from Prime Wars. They don't have to adhere to the same rules. Studio Series didn't follow the previous movies' lines.

1. Studio Series is an A-list line, neo-G1 is B-list.
2. WFC being a new line doesn't change the presence of mass limits (which is WHY big all-in-one Leaders have those hollow spots).
3. What I originally asked you was if you would rather pay the SIEGE Leader price for an Astrotrain designed in the style of T30/CW/TR Leaders (that is, oversize for most characters and with big mold hollows).

2. Would you have paid WFC Leader price for it?

It would have been a TR figure

Where the slag did you get that from? How would SIEGE Astrotrain having been designed the way TR Leaders were (which is what I was asking) make him be a TR figure?

You answered your own qurstion there.

No, I didn't. A figure in Line Y being designed like a figure in Line X does not magically send it back in time to be a Line X figure.

[Rodimus Prime]

Well, I was willing to let it go, but if you want to keep going... I just hope Burn doesn't get pissed because we're dragging down the thread, even if the subject is related to Earthrise.

So there's concrete proof that Astrotrain would have had to be thinned and hollowed and possibly shrunk overall to fit within the constraints of a WFC Voyager.

But it doesn't have to be that way, it's just 1 option. Take away the tender, make him 25 grams lighter, and you have a proper voyager. OR, take the plastic spent on the tender, put it into the bot, stretch him to Magnus height, and you have a proper leader.

1. I think reducing him to a Voyager would result in an inferior figure. Inferior enough to make people want a 3P upgrade and filler kit, which ironically would cost around $20.
2. I think he's a proper Leader class as-is. I don't think the mass has to all go into the bot, and sacrificing the tender (which completes his train mode) to balloon him to Magnus size would be a waste. And it's not like he can't wear the tender pieces as armor.
That reminds me, with my general Leader talk earlier... SIEGE Magnus is one of the figures I've seen people denouncing as "A voyager with accessories", which is one of the things I was trying to address. You evidently aren't in that camp, but some people are.

Well, that's the great thing about opinions, isn't it? We all can have different ones.

Also, are you going to just ignore what I said about slot availability? That occurred to me as I was typing, and it's something I think is worth considering.

I think it's a poor excuse, not a valid reason to either include, exclude, or alter a figure because of slot availability.

Well, too bad. That's how the cookie's crumbled since Beast Wars. It's an unfortunate reality of commercial toy development.

Given that Blitzwing is the only one of the three whose altmodes aren't wildly out of scale with each other, I think robot mode is the most important scale

Fair enough. But we're they the same size in robot mode inG1, which is what WFC is supposedly adhering to?

Yes, they were. Both of them were about Seeker size in robot mode usually.

Alright, so that's settled.

I can be certain of that, because A. that is how all-in-one Leader figures work these days; that's how they were in T30, CW, TR, and PotP

So just because they were done that way in the past, it can't change? WFC is new line from Prime Wars. They don't have to adhere to the same rules. Studio Series didn't follow the previous movies' lines.

1. Studio Series is an A-list line, neo-G1 is B-list.
2. WFC being a new line doesn't change the presence of mass limits (which is WHY all-in-one Leaders have those hollow spots.
3. What I originally asked you was if you would rather pay the SIEGE Leader price for an Astrotrain designed in the style of T30/CW/TR Leaders (that is, oversize for most characters and with big mold hollows).

2. Would you have paid WFC Leader price for it?

It would have been a TR figure

Where the slag did you get that from? How would SIEGE Astrotrain having been designed the way TR Leaders were (which is what I was asking) make him be a TR figure?

You answered your own qurstion there.

No, I didn't. A figure in Line Y being designed like a figure in Line X does not magically send it back in time to be a Line X figure.

Okay, you should go back and reread my post, because you missed some of it. You certainly didn't quote all of it. The explanation is there.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Your post says:
"It would have been a TR figure, I would have paid TR leader price for it. Are they the same?"

I still don't see what I missed that justifies your saying SIEGE Astrotrain being like a TR leader would make him actually a TR Leader. Or am I looking in the wrong post? You might need to highlight this one for me x.x

[Rodimus Prime]

You answered your own question there. If you want a figure to be done in the style of a certain line, you can't just pick and choose the properties of that line, you have to apply them all.