Autobot032 wrote:*sighs*
We're gonna do this? Alright then.
Cool.
orriezaros wrote:On Hasbros' approval:
Yes, I realise but No, I don't see decisive decision making, I see lazy textbook formula referencing: They approve, but it doesn't mean there isn't rash action or miscalculated foresight all throughout...like fielding two sets of Constructicons in the films but deciding not to flood the market with construction vehicles, or incorporating Skidz & Mudflap but not even bothering to send Mudflap to Europe. (No Mudflap to a whole continent? Isn't that questionable sales strategy? He's part of a set of two! As is Suns with Sideswipe). Someone 'Up there' hires people with the (papers that say they have the) training to make the decisions, and tells them "make more money than last year"...I suspect those paper holders are using what the textbook says about the product without looking at what the product says about itself.
We're not talking about the toys. We're talking about the movie and Bay.
Hasbro had say so and worked with both Bay and Paramount all the way. This has nothing to do with toys. Nothing at all. This is just your segue to complain about distribution.
Actually, I was complaining about competence.I didn't say Hasbro had no say-so at all and the movie was made to sell toys, no matter what you say.And I can buy what I want from Japan and the UK.
It's not needed here in this thread and it's been covered a million times. Please drop it and stick with the conversation at hand.
That's fair.You're right.Agreed.
orriezaros wrote:On approving Bay:
I remember hearing it, but I can't remember where: I think in the commentary for the first DVD, Michael Bay states Hasbro is/was waiting for him to give them details on which vehicles he had decided to use.They hired him so they don't have to decide.
...and your point is? There's nothing out of the ordinary about this. Hasbro worked with him through all of it. He had to pick some vehicles and finalize which ones he was going with before Hasbro started producing vehicles and figures. Otherwise they'd have been making a shot in the dark, and the toys would've looked nothing like the movie characters.
Your point here, is invalid. (At least, I think you were trying to make a point.)
Bay chose. Hasbro complied. My point is valid and you know it. (The jibe in the brackets is unnecessary and would give you no leverage if I started throwing jibes at you too).
orriezaros wrote:I know fans are (sometimes) at each others throats over which parts of the movieverse is the bit we should hate, (and I agree many aspects of the films will end up of great benefit to future lines) but seeing so many people disown swathes of a single continuity, when a single continuity means pretty much diddly in a multi continuity storyboard...if I see it and cringe now, how would I feel if I was the one putting it out there?
I'm...really not sure where you're going with this. No seriously, I'm not being funny, I'm literally confused. I don't know if it's a language barrier thing or what, but I'm completely lost here. So...huh?
Understood:I'm saying I find the volume of complaints staggering. I thought people would get used to it by now. People are continuing to disown the movies even tho they've had so long to get used to them and incorporate them into the greater TF picture in their own way and in their own time. It seems strange to me, and makes me treat the problem like a serious issue. It makes me wonder how the lead decision makers feel.
orriezaros wrote:I was talking about it the other day with some friends: Fans (of anything) wait a long time for a breakthrough (in this case,films). They see shouldn't-be'fans- (like someones' mum, for instance, or the lady from the Kwik-E-Mart or whoever-you get the idea) walk out saying "I really liked it-I think Transformers are great. I can see now why you've liked them so much all these years". Where the original fan has waited 25 years to say "Thank you, I'm glad you feel that way, too!", they instead say "Those aren't (the) Transformers (I was presenting to you)."
Isn't that unfortunate?
But those people complaining and saying "Those aren't the TransFormers I know and love" (which is basically what you were trying to convey here)
Oh,they're the Transformers I know and love, alright,in the example I give it's not what "I" was presenting to "you" about what there is to know and love about Transformers.
are being blinded by their own...well, I don't have a label for it.
preconditioning?
In some nations, people tie rags together to make a soccer ball, but view scientifically engineered soccer balls as detrimental to the true talent of a player; in others, Maradonna is a Demigod for new and inventive application of drug use.In others, the team isn't competition grade until there is no drug use and the most elite specialist equipment arrives.Each point of view is legitimate.That was the original conversation.Each TF complaint (and compliment) is legitimate as well.We don't have to like it but we shouldn't we try to tolerate it.People open up here because they feel they can,and the fact they're dissatisfied with a product doesn't automatically make them ignorant.Consumer feedback relies on complaints as well as compliments.
But the problem is they're not looking at what's right in front of them, they've got their heads shoved where the sun don't shine. As it's been stated here, the TransFormers in the Bay movies do fit the criteria of past TF stories. They might have a different coat of paint, or a different name, but the core pieces are still there. Just like every reiteration that's come before the Bayverse, the TF shows and toylines have strictly adhered to the core pieces. The story, locations, and adventures changed, but the important parts were there.
Yes, I agree with all of this, but there was more than the core:Elements which made a greater whole.The core is the bit the rest is anchored upon during expansion.The films are the matrix of each story core.People will wait to see things they want to see and waiting can be an agonizing process.Demanding that they shutup and/or telling them their opinion isn't worth the effort is like hoarding rather than sharing the fandom.It is elitism and it is unfair.Most will change their opinion once they're convinced.The rest have the intellectual right to remain unconvinced because they have the intellectual capability to remain unconvinced.Hating them isn't a solution.Cracking down on them isn't a way to change their minds about anything except their attackers.
And there here in the Bayverse too. There are fans who CAN see it.
Yes, there are.
There are also fans who aren't WILLING to see it.
True.
They're choosing not to see it.
Or in certain cases are seing through things-let's be fair,now.
Whether it's that they're just bullheaded, argumentative, looking for a reason to complain/fight/troll/whatever, they're just choosing to see what they want to see and they're making a spectacle of themselves for no good reason.
I hear you loud and clear. Are they not sometimes trying to show what they see, and willing to fight for it up to a point? Because they feel strongly about it?
And it's ridiculous. There's a difference between seeing the movie, saying you don't like it (which is reasonable, that's fine),
agree 100%
and "OH IT'S NOT MY TRANSFORMERS! MY TRANSFORMERS WERE..." and then they throw out a laundry list of things their TFs had that the Bayverse has. It makes their argument just incredibly silly.
Sorry, can't agree with you there. In my opinion it's bigoted of one person to brush over anyones' attempt to highlight on a deeper facet of something both people appreciate anyway. Where it gets silly is the demands and the death threats.(Actually, that's worse than silly...)
They need to come up with reasonable and sensible reasons why they don't like the movies, and then we'll talk.
This coming to us, getting in our faces and telling us we're wrong and we're dumb (which they pretty much do), ain't gonna work.
No offence,but now I'm confused. By "coming to us",can you clarify? Do you mean me coming to you or complainers coming to fans or what exactly? "We're" wrong and dumb,why? Who's "we?" Who's "They"? Not dissing you here.I'm not sure I've seen posts like that...about complainers calling fans dumb.I have ,however, seen posts about fans calling complainers dumb,repeatedly...
orriezaros wrote:"Reboot the franchise with someone loyal at the helm" doesn't just encompass Hollywood, but Hasbro, Takara and Seibertron as well. That's why I say 'Universally representative'. Hasbro are just the ones in charge right now.It was refreshing to see a statement put so well that doesn't attack Michael Bay. (It states something about his work,yes, but doesn't slander him, which is a sign of good health in the fanbase *LOL*).
Bay HAS been loyal. He's had death threats, his apartment broken into, his laptop stolen, he had to postpone other projects and his long needed vacation to make this all work. If that's not loyalty, I don't know what is.
Yes, somewhat it's loyalty to a paycheck,
but plenty of other directors would walk away after everything he's been through. He wanted to see this through to the end and he has. His ideas might not always fit with the fans, but that doesn't make him disloyal.
Waaaait: there's a difference between disloyal and more loyal to the mythology. BIG difference.
Let's say we get a fanwanker of a director at the helm for the next movies (and there will be more, Hasbro's already said so.)
Awesome! I didn't know that! (Thanks!)
, they'll crash and burn at the theater because they'll cater to us, and leave everyone else out. That's not fair.
Definitely true but also (hopefully) unlikely to happen.Anything written well and scrutinized properly should have small chances of going awry, regardless of subject.
We weren't left out in the cold this time (though many say we are...and we aren't...), so why should everyone else get kicked to the curb?
Many of the older series were really, REALLY good stories that captured the attention of a large proportion of the kids of their generation and made them fans. Had these stories been retold frame for frame as films (repeat: I LIKE and appreciate the films-I insist they will benefit future TF lines) I'm pretty confident they would have had the same positive impact on non fans, if not better. I am not readily convinced folks will be kicked out to the curb, but will think more carefully on what you said later on.
And the movie will try and please the critics and it'll fail. I'm honestly surprised the critics liked the first film (I'm still reeling from that one.)
I'm starting to understand the differences we have here. I REALLY liked the first film.Apart from Frenzy's cartoon walk I enjoyed pretty much all of it and thought it was very well put together.Jazz's death needed thinking time but I still liked it.I feel the writing was powerful enough to not need to be afraid of the critics at all.
but if you try and please them, you'll alienate us.
I have no differing opinion. I agree here too.The only constructive offering I can think of is to suggest a concious movement by the whole fanbase to meet each eventuality halfway, as I've said elsewhere and you say below.
Hasbro has done nothing wrong in approving any of this.
Agreed, every decision they made appeared to be the right one at the time,from the point of view of the objectives and interests of Hasbro as a corporation.
Bay has been loyal.
.....what you are saying here is completely valid, and I would be a jerk to say otherwise, but fans are loyal too, Autobot032. All I can say is allow people their reservations.Their opinions will change when they are convinced it's time to do so.Please acknowledge that I am not trying to shoot you down.
And the fans should be more willing to meet them halfway. (I didn't say bend over and take it, I said meet them halfway.)
Understood and agreed.I've said the same elsewhere on this board more than once, for the record.
If anyone's being unreasonable, it's the fans.
Nope.No way!We meet halfway on that,too.There's no way in the world fans should shoulder all the responsibility.I'm sorry, 'cuz I've seen plenty of your posts and I know you're a good guy who enters events from a good angle and predisposition,but I will never budge on that.I would have liked my last comment to have been in agreement with yours,but no,at least this time...
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