The Energon Pub

[dinogeist]

Repeat,Rinse & Wash,Then repeat the cycle all over again.....

It's the age old question. What's to blame for some TF toy lines that are made more inferior to others? Is it the economy?
Is it hasbro "Over detailing the TF toys? too many gimmicks on the TF toys? or "please list reason here"

This is my mere opinion below,I state nothing as fact. these are my TF fan observations from being a TF fan since 1986.

I BLAME IT ON Hasbro when they want,insist & beg those takara designers to "over detail" the sculpted TF toys in a particular TF toy line. When hasbro gets into this "over-detailing saga,their not happy until every micro inch of the toy has gears,veins,muscles,bolts,cyborg parts,rivets,bends/shapes/indents in the plastic,etc...

Over detailing TF sculpts always ends badly as the end result is making the toys look ugly,mis-proporioned. sometimes the budget money goes to the "over detailing" of the sculpts forcing the plastic quality & engineering to be more inferior.

It seems like hasbro is incapable of learning valuable lessons from the past. when they've ruined TF toy lines due to "over detailing". examples the Transmetals,fuzors,beastmachines,TF Animate,Movie-verse.

Examples of Hasbro ruining TF toy lines by getting carried away with "over detailing" the sculpts on the TF toys: (1)The first 2 years of Beastwars from 1996 to 1997 had the best designed beastwars toys. because the 1996 & 1996 BW toys had less details on the sculpted toys. 1998 for beastwars produced some ugly Transmetal 1 toys due to the over detailing. THE WORST OFFENDER THAT SUFFERED THE MOST "OVER DETAILING" WAS THE 1999 TRANSMETAL 2 TOYS. These TM2 toys were ruined by having too much detail crammed into those tiny deluxe & basic tm2 toys. The over detailing caused most TM2 toys to have misproprtioned body parts,limbs,the cyborg details on the sculpts made the figures look hideous & ugly. most of the transmetal 1 & 2 basics & deluxes used thinner & inferior plastic & had inferior engineering due to the toy budget going towards the "over detailing". in order for takara to keep up with hasbro's over deatailing sculpt demands & keeping things within the retail price range. sacrifices had to be made like inferior engineering,thinner cheaper plastic & so forth.

Flash forward to the beastmachines toy line & it suffered the same fate as the 1998 thru 1999 Beastwars toys. as far as "over detailing" The sculpts TF toys went.

Flash forward to 2002 & Hasbro got rid of all that over-detailing of the sculpts. Hasbro for the next 5 years focused on thicker plastic,superior engineering,gimmicks,poseabilty & so forth. It seems like the Cycle of ruining TF toys for "over detailing" was broken for the Armada,Energon & Cybertron toy lines.

Hasbro & takara broke the cycle further by not putting too much detail in the alternators/binal-tech toys. instead focusing on thicker plastic,superior engineering & poseability.

The over detailing cycle was further broke for the Classics 1.0 toys.

Flash forward to the year 2007 & Hasbro repeats the "over-detailing" cycle with the 2007 movie verse toy line. though the toy budget is higher. so the 2007 movie toys don't have inferior plastic nor inferior engineering. HOWEVER SADLY A BIG CHUNCK OF 2007 MOVIE toys suffer the fate of "over-detailing" by being ugly sculpted TF toys. that looks like hiddous insect like robot monsters.

Flash forward to 2008 & the TF Animated toys. goes beyond with the "over-detailing". since hasbro doesn't raise prices when they over detail the TF sculpted toys. Takara is forced to makes sacrifices when hasbro wants "over-detailing. the sacrifices takara must do to keep in hasbro's toy line budget. for animated the toys had extremly thinner inferior plastic used. the transfiormations were simplified. the toy engineerior was extremly inferior. the paint apps for the hasbro versions were put on sloppy,had no shine & so forth.
the over-detailing made the animated toys looked like highly glorified stylized toddler play school go-bots toys.

Flash forward to the ROTF/HFTD/NEST/RTS/Generations toys. Hasbro had a bigger toy budget due to the 2007 movie toys selling beyond well & expected. because of the bigger budget,the plastic quality was decent & the engineering was decent. Sadly the over-detailing caused some mis-proprtione parts/limbs & ugly design sculpts.

The DOTM toy line budget was less,thus when hasbro insisted on "over-detailing" the sculpted toys. sacifices had to be made everywhere. some toys were smaller & less wide. the plastic used was thinner & cheaper. the engineering & joint technology was extremly inferior. the over-detailing caused the sculpts to look like robotic monsters.

I can't comment on the TF prime toys as I don't own any yet.
I plan to buy a few but haven't seen them in my stores in my areas yet.

I think the Generations toys were pure awesome. because the toys weren't "over detailed". the sculpted molds were decently proportioned. the engineering & poseabilty was decent. the toys weren't ugly.

Personally,I think blaming the economy for inferior TF toy lines is wrong & the easy "excuse" or "way out."

So in closing,I think in this bad economy Hasbro & Takara can still create superior Transformers toy lines. stop over-detailing the sculpted TF toys. focus on superior plastic materials,superior engineering & normal sculpted TF toys designs.

[fenrir72]

In a sense, I agree with your inputs on some aspects. But you can't deny that the world economic conditions are indeed a big factor in this (my pet peeve) TF downsizing.

Thanks to I'm a Nut Job of Iran among other tin pot dictators whose saber rattlings cause spikes in the world petrol prices, plastic costs have sky rocketed.

Now, we get a standard size figs like that of henkei/United/etc. I would have hoped for a more Voyager size figs with less mech tech gimmicks and go back to the basics.

Detailing in Beastwars? That part I can't comment on such because I didn't see much of it in my country when it was released (only ones I have are Lio,Big,Megastorm,Galvatron and Magmatron). Those guys were quite detailed and a pain to transform(except Megastorm) but great figs imho( and not much popping out of the sockets).

The Unicron Trilogy might have had its faults on some aspects(not forgetting Car Robots too)but to me, it was like a second coming of the line hearkening back to the G1 days. Especially Fire Convoy and Galaxy Convoy. They had been designed with a high amount of detail(not to mention quite big too) without sacrificing much of their playability( the Japanese versions btw didn't fall down and go boom unlike their American counterparts). (SL and Grand Convoy, I'd give them an A for design effort but kind of sucked (what with them taking a Sentai look and all) and making Convoy such a fat @ss 'bot that the only way he'd look bad@ss was to get a Wing Saber fig(another blocky power up mushroom).

Without leaving out the bad guys, Galaxyforce Megatron quite a towering hunk of weapons of mass destruction. Truly a size deserving for such a character.(Also very much detailed not to mention his hair dryer of death)

Alternity too is quite well designed but that caters to the more adult crowds so the intricacies of the transform sequence ain't much of a problem.

Lets hope that petrol prices eventually goes down to a level which would make it financially feasible for Tomy to design figs for Hasbro at a more larger scale.

[Cyber Bishop]

My eyes hurt... That is a LOT to read..

[Blurrz]

Why over-analyze? Why critique something that doesn't need it? Why look at the negative in everything? Why point fingers? Why bite the hand that feeds you?

It's far better off to talk about the positives - the fact that over the years we have had the pleasure to see the advancement in toy technology and also the fact that we are part of one of the healthiest franchises in the world.

[fenrir72]

@ Blurzz

Tidalwavex not complaining is like Huffer on a CR chamber

[gavinfuzzy]

Over detailing in thw movie line? I don't think so. Most figs from the 2007 movies were very decent. Guess not everyone likes the aesthetics of an alien robot.

But really, if a truck turned into an alien robot in real life, i doubt it would look simple. Besides, most of the detailing are show-accurate, so can't blame Hasbro for that.

[dinogeist]

Why over-analyze? Why critique something that doesn't need it? Why look at the negative in everything? Why point fingers? Why bite the hand that feeds you?

It's far better off to talk about the positives - the fact that over the years we have had the pleasure to see the advancement in toy technology and also the fact that we are part of one of the healthiest franchises in the world.

IMHO,Because it's been proven time after time. That Hasbro & takara do read the various internet based Transformers forums/message boards/news groups. As fans if all we do is post positives on the transformers toys. then this makes hasbro/takara continue to do what their doing. It's helpful for fans to point out the negatives they dis-like in various Transformers toy lines or individual Transformers toys. So that fans can help create change & improvements in the Transformers toy lines/individual toys.

[Burn]

Dear Hasbro,

Please stop screwing up. It upsets Tidalwavex ... and it's not fun when he's upset.

Kind regards,
The Seibertron.com Staff.

[Blurrz]

IMHO,Because it's been proven time after time. That Hasbro & takara do read the various internet based Transformers forums/message boards/news groups. As fans if all we do is post positives on the transformers toys. then this makes hasbro/takara continue to do what their doing. It's helpful for fans to point out the negatives they dis-like in various Transformers toy lines or individual Transformers toys. So that fans can help create change & improvements in the Transformers toy lines/individual toys.

So please tell me how complaining about 'a cycle' is going to change anything? The quality of plastic has diminished, but are the toys crumbling to dust? Paint applications may be lacking but is that really worth a heart attack? That's something an amateur with paint and a brush could change. Broke a piece? There's glue, epoxy, and all of that jazz.

Me, you, and everyone else here on the forums are paying pocket change for figures. We aren't dishing out $50,000 for the figures, we are paying out next to nothing. I don't want a Picasso, I don't want a Mona Lisa, I just want a figure that transforms and is fun, and that's all I am asking for.

There is no need to complain about the current state of Transformers because it could be a lot worse. Star Wars has a thousands upon thousands of extended Universe characters and beings that have yet even see toy form. Video Game franchises such as Assassin's Creed and Mass Effect have lines but nothing that would satisfy a hardcore fan. The Transformers franchise has dipped deeper, and has experienced greater lows than whatever you're trying to pick apart now. It's grown strong, and it's a behemoth now. Nothing you or I could pick at right now is going to change the grand scheme of things.

While it is true that Hasbro and Takara have representatives looking at our forums and other various fansites, do you really think they're going to pay attention to the gibberish you're typing out? Your words are so generic! Stop over-detailing toys? Buddy, if the movie toys weren't highly detailed they'd look like lumps of garbage. The same goes for Transformers: Prime.

[RhA]

You're barking up the wrong end of the tree, the plastics are suffering. DOTM toys have a collection of their own: stressmarks.

[Valandar]

To back up what was just said... think about this.

In 1994, an Autobot Car averaged about $11 for a toy the size of a modern day Basic. You had to put the majority of the stickers on yourself, actual PAINT apps were rare to nonexistant, and articulation was something reserved for arms, IF that.

In 2011, a Deluxe class figure averages about $11-$12 nowadays, for a toy the size of... well, Deluxe or only a little smaller. There's paint apps on every figure (even if you may think they are minimal or badly done), articulation is downright amazing compared to even ten years ago, and most have MUCH better proportions than, say, the G1 Datsun mold.

So as a percentage of the average consumer's pocket, we Transformers fans are actually getting MORE for LESS, something you really can't say about anything else in this economy.

And before anybody jump me about "GEEWUN!!!!1!ONE!"... I AM a g1 fan. I just acknowledge that most of their value to me comes from nostalgia.

[robofreak]

You're barking up the wrong end of the tree, the plastics are suffering. DOTM toys have a collection of their own: stressmarks.

No stressmarks on my DOTM toys.

TidalwaveX, I would heavily recommend you actually take the time to research stuff and then create a interesting argument instead of throwing a wall of text at us and expect a decent conversation. All this has consistently done is blow up on you.

I can tell you don't own any of the TM2 toys. They are far from anything you described. Besides, the techno-organic look is what was intended. It was a line designed to blur the lines between organic and technology. If anything, the line suffered from too much chrome. (bear in mind that I hate chrome with a passion)

If anything the 2007 line didn't have enough detail, but that was Hasbro's first attempt at creating TFs for a live action movie. ROTF perfected the movie look and DOTM kinda went downhill on the detail department if you ask me. However, that's cause I felt mech tech was a pointless gimmick, but it did not affect my feelings for the line.

Hasbro and Takara may read the boards, but I think that's mostly for their entertainment. The online community is a vocal minority. We do not represent the general consensus of the TF fandoms opinions even though we may like to assume that. Once again, children are the ones that Hasbro focuses on. We just get to reap the benefits and then squabble about it.

I honestly can't figure out what makes you happy in this hobby. Your first thread you posted was for a desire to have Hasbro make only MP figures with super awesome details. Now you want less details.

You say Hasbro is the one that wants excessive details and Takara has to bend to their will? I don't see how that's possible since Takara really does their own thing and Hasbro just produces stuff based on what they make. Now yes, there are exceptions and the more figures are joint projects, but Takara still has most of the control over what figures are made. Hasbro has helped in some designs, but most figures have the name of a Takara designer behind it. Now I will say that this statement I've made mostly refers to the era of G1, RID, and most of AEC. Most of BW was made by Kenner designers and Animated, movie-verse, and Prime are more joint efforts.

Yeah, I wrote a wall of text, but there was a lot to go over.

[dinogeist]

You're barking up the wrong end of the tree, the plastics are suffering. DOTM toys have a collection of their own: stressmarks.

No stressmarks on my DOTM toys.

TidalwaveX, I would heavily recommend you actually take the time to research stuff and then create a interesting argument instead of throwing a wall of text at us and expect a decent conversation. All this has consistently done is blow up on you.

I can tell you don't own any of the TM2 toys. They are far from anything you described. Besides, the techno-organic look is what was intended. It was a line designed to blur the lines between organic and technology. If anything, the line suffered from too much chrome. (bear in mind that I hate chrome with a passion)

If anything the 2007 line didn't have enough detail, but that was Hasbro's first attempt at creating TFs for a live action movie. ROTF perfected the movie look and DOTM kinda went downhill on the detail department if you ask me. However, that's cause I felt mech tech was a pointless gimmick, but it did not affect my feelings for the line.

Hasbro and Takara may read the boards, but I think that's mostly for their entertainment. The online community is a vocal minority. We do not represent the general consensus of the TF fandoms opinions even though we may like to assume that. Once again, children are the ones that Hasbro focuses on. We just get to reap the benefits and then squabble about it.

I honestly can't figure out what makes you happy in this hobby. Your first thread you posted was for a desire to have Hasbro make only MP figures with super awesome details. Now you want less details.

You say Hasbro is the one that wants excessive details and Takara has to bend to their will? I don't see how that's possible since Takara really does their own thing and Hasbro just produces stuff based on what they make. Now yes, there are exceptions and the more figures are joint projects, but Takara still has most of the control over what figures are made. Hasbro has helped in some designs, but most figures have the name of a Takara designer behind it. Now I will say that this statement I've made mostly refers to the era of G1, RID, and most of AEC. Most of BW was made by Kenner designers and Animated, movie-verse, and Prime are more joint efforts.

Yeah, I wrote a wall of text, but there was a lot to go over.

I bought,owned,played with & transformered every beastwars toy from 1996 thru 2000. So I have my personal experiences thus vaild opinions on the transmetals toys.

I dis-agree the Transformers masterpieces & alternators/BT are Not more detailed than the TM2 toys & movie verse toys. I'm not a fan of over-detailing every micro inch of plastic on a TF toy with gears,rivets,veins,muscles,Cyborg parts,bolts,indented shaped plastic,etc... to futher explain this example: just imagine a piece of paper folded into a shape,the masterpiece piece of paper shape just has a yellow & green jelly bean glued to it & that's all the sculpted details it gets. example 2: the TM2/Movie verse piece of paper shape has a banna,apple,bolt,purple jelly bean,grain of rice,pear,bean,orange seed,nail,tooth,lock of hair,snail,indented burnt corner. covering every micro square inch of the paper shape.

The TF toy budget hasbro gives takara can only handle/afford so much. Over-detailing a Transformers toy line. forces cut backs in other key areas,like thinner plastic,inferior joint technology,design,sloppy paint apps,inferior engineering,etc..

I enjoyed The AEC toy lines. because the focus was on thicker/stronger plastic. strong top notch toy engineering. shaped plastic parts & not a billion details throws on to a 2 inch part of plastic. creative ideas like combining,armor pieces,hyper mode hidden weapons.Beautiful & simplistic looking design sculpted tf toys. IT JUST SEEMS WITH THE OVER DETAILING,IT FORCES THE TF TOY BUDGET TO AX EVERYTHING I LIKE IN A TF TOY.

[Burn]

Or it could be a simple case of growing older and not liking change.

[dinogeist]

Or it could be a simple case of growing older and not liking change.

IMHO,Over-detailing & throwing a billion things on a 2 inch movie-verse toy part of plastic is not change. It's a repeated cycle from the transmetals & beastmacines maximals TF toys years.

I welcome change in my Transformers toy/media hobby. I think the AEC,Alternators,masterpiece & classic/generations/RTS are steps in the right direction of change,creativy & newer ideas. (1)alternators having real interiors inside the cars. (2)AEC was the most creative & bold line as far as trying & testing newer ideas or evoulving them to the next level. like the poseable combiner modes for optimus & the other transformers. hyper weapons for the energon decepticons. pop out gimmicks via a minicon or cyber key. transforming planets gods. minicons that became almost everything like headmasters,targetmasters,chest pieces. weapons,etc... (3) masterpieces TF toys. the most adult mature highly stylized,super poseable,most accurate update homages well ever see. (4)classics/generations/RTS,for the extremly low toy line budget these fan catered lines are given. they produced the most beautifully sculpted & decent updated homages.

[Burn]

1 - Alternators were awesome, plain and simple.

2 - AEC followed Beast Wars/Machines and R.I.D. yet managed to have as many bricks as G1. Creative? Hardly. Their combiners sucked and was even worse than a G1 combiner. I love my AEC toys, but they weren't a step forward.

3 - Masterpiece isn't all that great. Let's face it, even adult collectors are finding it hard to afford them these days and quality control is going to ****.

4 - Classics/Generations to me are a great example of not coming up with anything new, but rather taking something old and using modern technology to recreate it.

Perhaps you'd prefer they bring back stickers for detailing? If so, I recommend Kabaya TF's.

[fenrir72]

@ Burn

I kind of miss the apply your own decal gimmick of yesteryear Though thanks to improvements of stamp graphing technology, I can live with the stamp graph details. (Good example is Encore Meister( Remember how the not Martini bar patterns on his rear wheels were hand applied? They always got crimped. This time around, much better).

Though I would repeat what robofreak,Burn among others mentioned, the big issue I have aside from these almost pointless mechtech gimmick, is the marked deterioration in Q.C.. Not even Bandai's Sentai series or the Gundam fix configuration, Robot Spirits line have that much problems with Q.C.

Design wise, I hope Tomy will do something about the d@mn stress marks and last but not the least, start making them bigger than deluxe.

[dinogeist]

Perhaps you'd prefer they bring back stickers for detailing?

I never liked thus never applied any of the stickers to my generation one transformers toys.

[Burn]

@ Burn

I kind of miss the apply your own decal gimmick of yesteryear

Then get the Kabaya TF's! I've become an expert at applying those goddamn small and fiddly face stickers.

I never liked thus never applied any of the stickers to my generation one transformers toys.

That must be a pretty boring to look at collection you have.

[fenrir72]

@Burn

I like my Tfs big and mean, not the Kabaya weenies. On the other hand, the skill to apply those fiddly small decals, there lies the challenge.

[BeastProwl]

@Burn
On the other hand, the skill to apply those fiddly small decals, there lies the challenge.

I Don't Know why, but this made me laugh.

(bear in mind that I hate chrome with a passion)

How could you hate chrome!?

The online community is a vocal minority.

I Wish this wasn't true. I wish we could be openly heard. the day seibertron is on the news would be a good day indeed.

[craggy]

The online community is a vocal minority.

I Wish this wasn't true. I wish we could be openly heard. the day seibertron is on the news would be a good day indeed.

Whilst it'd be cool if TFs got more respect, is a Tidalwave thread really the place to be saying that Seibertron being on the news would be a good thing?

[RhA]

The online community is a vocal minority.

I Wish this wasn't true. I wish we could be openly heard. the day seibertron is on the news would be a good day indeed.

Whilst it'd be cool if TFs got more respect, is a Tidalwave thread really the place to be saying that Seibertron being on the news would be a good thing?

We have a winner!

BTW, if it wasn't for the vocal minority THERE WOULD BE NO GENERATIONS TOYLINE.

[robofreak]

TidalwaveX, Hasbro does not give Takara a budget. Both companies are separate entities with a partnership. That's how it's always been. I have no idea where you got that idea. They each have different bugets on the toys which is why there are differences in paint apps and whatnot.

And you changed your story. I know know of one of your posts where you said you refused to buy any of the TM2 figures, but here you claim to have purchased them all.

I will agree with Burn, AEC was not much of a step forward. We got some cool stuff for sure, but the toys didn't really start to evolve until the 2007 movie.

[alternator77]

not to be off topic but when i read the thread title i thought it was a how to guide on doing ones laundry. sorry