AcademyofDrX wrote:"The rights are complicated and Hasbro doesn't want a lawsuit" is fair and reasonable speculation. "Bandai owns the likenesses of the toys" is a false statement. Whether it's for business strategic reasons, conservative legal opinions, or something else, we will almost certainly never see a major GoBots toyline.
Grahf_ wrote:o.supreme wrote:TF-fan kev777 wrote:Nemesis Primal wrote:Amazon and Pulse say there are 4 packs, and we had 4 listings (Terrorsaur, "Ranger/Puffer", Jackpot, & Tigatron) but this one was the only one to mention multiple figures in the listing, so if they are all multipacks then we only know at most half of each set's contents.o.supreme wrote:With ER I believe when the Galactic Odyssey sets were announced we knew there would be 5 (and some if not most of the contents). I know some of the contents of the Golden Disk line have been leaked, but do we know exactly how many sets there will be?
Actually, I think this reveal along with the packaging show us the other 3 may end up being single figures, or figures with extras. Look at the photo of the 4 packages making up the golden disc. This set is by far the largest box by area on the side they are using. I would expect the others to be single figures, but possibly with extras.
Unfortunately, looking at them altogether now I fear you may be correct. I've ordered many Selects, and the size of the deluxe box has been the same since the first 2 (Ricochet & red Swoop) in 2019. However with the Centurion Drone last year, and Tricranius this year, we see they can add a whole accessories pack, and still not change the size of the box. The box for deluxes could *technically* be smaller. I would not be surprised if we saw that change occur starting with any future Selects after WFC is done.
But the first box (bottom right) is definitely the biggest. The 2 on the left will be deluxes, and the one on top-right will be the Voyager. Oh well...so much for these all being multi-packs
Going by box sizes compared to each other, I'm guessing that numbers two and four might be voyager figures and number three is a deluxe + something else. One voyager would be Tigatron. The other would hopefully be Terrorsaur as some sort of extensive retool of Airazor like Ravage from Cheetor. The deluxe would be Jackpot. The addition with Jackpot could be Sights from Pteraxadon.
It just looks to me that boxes two and four are wider than half the width of box one (two deluxes) which could accommodate a voyager. Box three is wider than boxes two and four but obviously not as wide as box one which is why I think a deluxe with a Battle Master. They'd give the Battle Master display room within the box and not just be crammed into a smaller box as with the extras with Centurion Drone and Tricranius. Which would make the space needed larger than a voyager (boxes 2 and 4) but smaller than two deluxes (box 1).
Or it could also be that two and four are just deluxes, Jackpot and Terrorsaur, with three being Tigatron as O.Supreme said.
AcademyofDrX wrote:"The rights are complicated and Hasbro doesn't want a lawsuit" is fair and reasonable speculation. "Bandai owns the likenesses of the toys" is a false statement. Whether it's for business strategic reasons, conservative legal opinions, or something else, we will almost certainly never see a major GoBots toyline.
primalxconvoy wrote:AcademyofDrX wrote:If you're using "identical" narrowly to refer to counterfeiting, that's fundamentally different. But honestly, even the original designs could probably be remade, because the patents are expired, but I don't know why anyone would want to do that.
In context, though, I'm talking about reengineered Generations-style updates. There are no toy rights restrictions to something like that.
Like I've said, there's no clear answer for this. It's why Apple and Samsung have gone to court over reverse engineering, and many other similar lawsuits. I daresay Hasbro doesn't want to suffer any potentially legal or financial problems linked to it.
sol magnus wrote:primalxconvoy wrote:AcademyofDrX wrote:If you're using "identical" narrowly to refer to counterfeiting, that's fundamentally different. But honestly, even the original designs could probably be remade, because the patents are expired, but I don't know why anyone would want to do that.
In context, though, I'm talking about reengineered Generations-style updates. There are no toy rights restrictions to something like that.
Like I've said, there's no clear answer for this. It's why Apple and Samsung have gone to court over reverse engineering, and many other similar lawsuits. I daresay Hasbro doesn't want to suffer any potentially legal or financial problems linked to it.
Not too long ago, Bandai released new neo-generations style Machine Robo toys, so there's definitely something to the 'can't make toys in the likeness of the Bandai figures' thing.
AcademyofDrX wrote:sol magnus wrote:primalxconvoy wrote:AcademyofDrX wrote:If you're using "identical" narrowly to refer to counterfeiting, that's fundamentally different. But honestly, even the original designs could probably be remade, because the patents are expired, but I don't know why anyone would want to do that.
In context, though, I'm talking about reengineered Generations-style updates. There are no toy rights restrictions to something like that.
Like I've said, there's no clear answer for this. It's why Apple and Samsung have gone to court over reverse engineering, and many other similar lawsuits. I daresay Hasbro doesn't want to suffer any potentially legal or financial problems linked to it.
Not too long ago, Bandai released new neo-generations style Machine Robo toys, so there's definitely something to the 'can't make toys in the likeness of the Bandai figures' thing.
No, there isn't. Just because Action Toys can make Machine Robo toys under license from Bandai doesn't mean that Hasbro can't make Go-Bots. There are two different sets of IP. If Hasbro's IP didn't include the likenesses, and Bandai's rights work the way people claim here, then the IDW comics series would have infringed on Bandai's rights, but that's not how any of this works.
sol magnus wrote:AcademyofDrX wrote:sol magnus wrote:primalxconvoy wrote:AcademyofDrX wrote:If you're using "identical" narrowly to refer to counterfeiting, that's fundamentally different. But honestly, even the original designs could probably be remade, because the patents are expired, but I don't know why anyone would want to do that.
In context, though, I'm talking about reengineered Generations-style updates. There are no toy rights restrictions to something like that.
Like I've said, there's no clear answer for this. It's why Apple and Samsung have gone to court over reverse engineering, and many other similar lawsuits. I daresay Hasbro doesn't want to suffer any potentially legal or financial problems linked to it.
Not too long ago, Bandai released new neo-generations style Machine Robo toys, so there's definitely something to the 'can't make toys in the likeness of the Bandai figures' thing.
No, there isn't. Just because Action Toys can make Machine Robo toys under license from Bandai doesn't mean that Hasbro can't make Go-Bots. There are two different sets of IP. If Hasbro's IP didn't include the likenesses, and Bandai's rights work the way people claim here, then the IDW comics series would have infringed on Bandai's rights, but that's not how any of this works.
You're saying 'that's not how any of this works,' but evidently it's not been working how you think it does. Clearly, when Hasbro uses the "Go-Bots" characters they change them into "Transformers" toys for a reason. Something is being sidestepped, and it appears to be reference to the original toy from here. Otherwise, why NOT make Leader-1 as we know him? Why NOT make Turbo? Why NOT make Scooter (okay, I can think of a few reason why to not make Scooter), etc.?
Now, it COULD be they just don't want to compete with their own brand, but honestly, Go-Bots was never any competition to begin with, so I reject that as a reason.
AcademyofDrX wrote:sol magnus wrote:AcademyofDrX wrote:sol magnus wrote:primalxconvoy wrote:AcademyofDrX wrote:If you're using "identical" narrowly to refer to counterfeiting, that's fundamentally different. But honestly, even the original designs could probably be remade, because the patents are expired, but I don't know why anyone would want to do that.
In context, though, I'm talking about reengineered Generations-style updates. There are no toy rights restrictions to something like that.
Like I've said, there's no clear answer for this. It's why Apple and Samsung have gone to court over reverse engineering, and many other similar lawsuits. I daresay Hasbro doesn't want to suffer any potentially legal or financial problems linked to it.
Not too long ago, Bandai released new neo-generations style Machine Robo toys, so there's definitely something to the 'can't make toys in the likeness of the Bandai figures' thing.
No, there isn't. Just because Action Toys can make Machine Robo toys under license from Bandai doesn't mean that Hasbro can't make Go-Bots. There are two different sets of IP. If Hasbro's IP didn't include the likenesses, and Bandai's rights work the way people claim here, then the IDW comics series would have infringed on Bandai's rights, but that's not how any of this works.
You're saying 'that's not how any of this works,' but evidently it's not been working how you think it does. Clearly, when Hasbro uses the "Go-Bots" characters they change them into "Transformers" toys for a reason. Something is being sidestepped, and it appears to be reference to the original toy from here. Otherwise, why NOT make Leader-1 as we know him? Why NOT make Turbo? Why NOT make Scooter (okay, I can think of a few reason why to not make Scooter), etc.?
Now, it COULD be they just don't want to compete with their own brand, but honestly, Go-Bots was never any competition to begin with, so I reject that as a reason.
It's most likely a business reason and not a legal reason. Here's a link to a forum discussion on this same topic shared earlier in the thread today by user Coptur:
https://web.archive.org/web/20200808175 ... try3159052
Here's a key comment from Jim Sorensen:
"At least, they wouldn't use anything too close to any of the actual GoBots characters that were based on a Bandai license, because again, they'd not want to boost Bandai's MachineRobo line. A Cy-Kill toy that looks like Cy-Kill is probably off the table forever (pending some fortuitous merger). On the other hand, a Cy-Kill with a different color scheme and silhouette would be entirely possible. See, in fact, the actual Cop-Tur and Bug Bite toys produced by Hasbro licensee Fun Publications. A non-toy Cy-Kill would STILL almost certainly need to be heavily redesigned, not because of a potential lawsuit, but because of the free advertising issue."
If Hasbro launches a Go-Bots subline with the original designs, which I contend is completely in their rights, Bandai could make their Machine Robo line complimentary or in competition. Hasbro has no inclination to build up a secondary IP that someone else could make toys of.
Why change the colors and designs? To keep the characters active independent of what Bandai has. Think of it this way: which is more valuable to Hasbro, a yellow beetle named Bug Bite with a funny head or a white mercenary with the same name?
AcademyofDrX wrote:And of course Sorensen was wrong about the non-toy visual representation, as IDW's Go-Bots did in fact feature a Cy-kill who was visually identical to the classic version.
sol magnus wrote:In regards to the Go-Bots comic book, that's slightly different IP. The toys are the toys. The stylized images that represent the characters in print are just that - no different than the Diaclone/Transformers toy/character split except in that instance Hasbro/Takara share ownership of all it.
Action Toys did not get the license to make Machine Robo toys from Bandai. They got the license from Tatsunoko Production, the production company that animated the Machine Robo: Revenge of Cronos anime. The Action Toys line is based on the animation models of that series rather than the original Bandai toys that the cartoon models were based on.AcademyofDrX wrote:sol magnus wrote:Not too long ago, Bandai released new neo-generations style Machine Robo toys, so there's definitely something to the 'can't make toys in the likeness of the Bandai figures' thing.
No, there isn't. Just because Action Toys can make Machine Robo toys under license from Bandai doesn't mean that Hasbro can't make Go-Bots.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Action Toys did not get the license to make Machine Robo toys from Bandai. They got the license from Tatsunoko Production, the production company that animated the Machine Robo: Revenge of Cronos anime. The Action Toys line is based on the animation models of that series rather than the original Bandai toys that the cartoon models were based on.
I feel like it's less about Hasbro "not being allowed to make toys based on designs owned by Bandai" and more about Hasbro "feeling uneasy about making toys based on designs that originated from one of Takara's rivals since it would feel like giving free advertisement to said rival."AcademyofDrX wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Action Toys did not get the license to make Machine Robo toys from Bandai. They got the license from Tatsunoko Production, the production company that animated the Machine Robo: Revenge of Cronos anime. The Action Toys line is based on the animation models of that series rather than the original Bandai toys that the cartoon models were based on.
Now that is interesting. That suggests that Bandai either didn't retain ownership when they had the anime made--which we know is different from Tonka/Hasbro and Go-Bots--or they just let the Machine Robo IP expire. I noticed there weren't any copyright protection marks on the "Machine Robo" name, but I didn't want to read anything into it. This is all further argument against Bandai owning anything Hasbro should worry about, while reinforcing "it's complicated and not worth the trouble."
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
o.supreme wrote:Well... that was fast
https://hasbropulse.com/products/transf ... ith-sights
Jackpot!
o.supreme wrote:Was it being a repaint/ head retool of SS86 Jazz the obvious choice? I thought other fans predicted it might be something else?
TF-fan kev777 wrote:I was assuming it would be a Jazz retool/redeco and I think most others were as well. That is the recent mold that best fits the robot mode and seemed like the obvious choice.
What I did just notice is that, so far, these sets are actually below retail in the US. Jackpot is at the current Deluxe price, but comes with an extra battlemaster. Ranger and Puffer are $4 cheaper than 2 deluxes on their own. Contrast that with the GO sets last year that were all at retail with only the Botropolis set giving us the extra missile from Doubledealer versus normal retail price.
Immortal Starscream wrote:TF-fan kev777 wrote:I was assuming it would be a Jazz retool/redeco and I think most others were as well. That is the recent mold that best fits the robot mode and seemed like the obvious choice.
What I did just notice is that, so far, these sets are actually below retail in the US. Jackpot is at the current Deluxe price, but comes with an extra battlemaster. Ranger and Puffer are $4 cheaper than 2 deluxes on their own. Contrast that with the GO sets last year that were all at retail with only the Botropolis set giving us the extra missile from Doubledealer versus normal retail price.
with toys starting to finally circulate and becoming easier to find, scalpers are starting to loose their lunch money, so they are lowering the price a hair to help out
in all seriousness, this could be an indication that these are waaay behind schedule. Given that they will be shipping well into the new lines first couple of waves, but be "last year's model" they may be reducing the price to try and sell as much as they can to help recoup any possible losses from kids and collectors that have "moved on"
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