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Rodimus Prime wrote:

DeathReviews wrote:I know Beast Wars has devoted fans - but to me, all the figures and characters just seemed - sloppy. Sure, having a full blown Tyrannosaur HEAD for a hand sounds cool, but in practical application, not so much. Hard pass on all of these....

Are you saying that design doesn't translate well to toy form?

He's saying a head for a hand is impractical.

Sabrblade wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

DeathReviews wrote:I know Beast Wars has devoted fans - but to me, all the figures and characters just seemed - sloppy. Sure, having a full blown Tyrannosaur HEAD for a hand sounds cool, but in practical application, not so much. Hard pass on all of these....

Are you saying that design doesn't translate well to toy form?

He's saying a head for a hand is impractical.

But it makes brushing your teeth easier...

I think because of this very debate among fans that they should have made it an option to remove the t-rex head to reveal a hand. Plus I don't see any ports on him for weaponizers, fossolizers etc

For almost all the original Beast Wars characters and figures, there were just so many of the beast parts that didn't integrate convincingly into a robot mode (without coming across as animal part kibble), while the beast modes had too many seams and gaps to really pull off a successful animal mode.

I'm not saying that was wrong - it was a design angle they wanted to run with for a while. But it's just not my 'thing'. I won't take away from the people who DO like these - my not collecting them will just mean more for them

DeathReviews wrote:For almost all the original Beast Wars characters and figures, there were just so many of the beast parts that didn't integrate convincingly into a robot mode (without coming across as animal part kibble), while the beast modes had too many seams and gaps to really pull off a successful animal mode.

I'm not saying that was wrong - it was a design angle they wanted to run with for a while. But it's just not my 'thing'. I won't take away from the people who DO like these - my not collecting them will just mean more for them

That's my big issue with Beast Wars, that and no real limbs in robot mode, odd proportions, chicken legs, etc. Obviously, people who grew up with Beast Wars designed the live-action movie bots.

william-james88 wrote:

o.supreme wrote:Seems like a lot of early reviews are popping up fore core class. ( Normal reviewts though not sample swipers) Have these been spotted in store yet, or does a particular online retailer have them in stock?

They are readily available on Ebay from international sellers

Mine came from a domestic seller, in my state even.

chuckdawg1999 wrote:

DeathReviews wrote:For almost all the original Beast Wars characters and figures, there were just so many of the beast parts that didn't integrate convincingly into a robot mode (without coming across as animal part kibble), while the beast modes had too many seams and gaps to really pull off a successful animal mode.

I'm not saying that was wrong - it was a design angle they wanted to run with for a while. But it's just not my 'thing'. I won't take away from the people who DO like these - my not collecting them will just mean more for them

That's my big issue with Beast Wars, that and no real limbs in robot mode, odd proportions, chicken legs, etc. Obviously, people who grew up with Beast Wars designed the live-action movie bots.

william-james88 wrote:

o.supreme wrote:Seems like a lot of early reviews are popping up fore core class. ( Normal reviewts though not sample swipers) Have these been spotted in store yet, or does a particular online retailer have them in stock?

They are readily available on Ebay from international sellers

Mine came from a domestic seller, in my state even.

The movies came only ten years after Beast Wars. So people who grew up with Beast Wars would be in their late teens at most when the movies entered preproduction. So your maths don't check out. All of those things you say are just design cues that say "This guy is an alien.". Which the Transformers are.

It does seem to be true that, in general, people who like Beast Wars designs also like Movie designs. But given than most people who watched Beast Wars as little kids were teens when the Bay movies came out, and thus the prime audience for the films, it's not surprising.

Rtron wrote:

chuckdawg1999 wrote:

DeathReviews wrote:For almost all the original Beast Wars characters and figures, there were just so many of the beast parts that didn't integrate convincingly into a robot mode (without coming across as animal part kibble), while the beast modes had too many seams and gaps to really pull off a successful animal mode.

I'm not saying that was wrong - it was a design angle they wanted to run with for a while. But it's just not my 'thing'. I won't take away from the people who DO like these - my not collecting them will just mean more for them

That's my big issue with Beast Wars, that and no real limbs in robot mode, odd proportions, chicken legs, etc. Obviously, people who grew up with Beast Wars designed the live-action movie bots.

william-james88 wrote:

o.supreme wrote:Seems like a lot of early reviews are popping up fore core class. ( Normal reviewts though not sample swipers) Have these been spotted in store yet, or does a particular online retailer have them in stock?

They are readily available on Ebay from international sellers

Mine came from a domestic seller, in my state even.

The movies came only ten years after Beast Wars. So people who grew up with Beast Wars would be in their late teens at most when the movies entered preproduction. So your maths don't check out. All of those things you say are just design cues that say "This guy is an alien.". Which the Transformers are.

It does seem to be true that, in general, people who like Beast Wars designs also like Movie designs. But given than most people who watched Beast Wars as little kids were teens when the Bay movies came out, and thus the prime audience for the films, it's not surprising.

I believe Beast Wars had an older audience because of the early CGI tech

chuckdawg1999 wrote:

Rtron wrote:

chuckdawg1999 wrote:

DeathReviews wrote:For almost all the original Beast Wars characters and figures, there were just so many of the beast parts that didn't integrate convincingly into a robot mode (without coming across as animal part kibble), while the beast modes had too many seams and gaps to really pull off a successful animal mode.

I'm not saying that was wrong - it was a design angle they wanted to run with for a while. But it's just not my 'thing'. I won't take away from the people who DO like these - my not collecting them will just mean more for them

That's my big issue with Beast Wars, that and no real limbs in robot mode, odd proportions, chicken legs, etc. Obviously, people who grew up with Beast Wars designed the live-action movie bots.

william-james88 wrote:

o.supreme wrote:Seems like a lot of early reviews are popping up fore core class. ( Normal reviewts though not sample swipers) Have these been spotted in store yet, or does a particular online retailer have them in stock?

They are readily available on Ebay from international sellers

Mine came from a domestic seller, in my state even.

The movies came only ten years after Beast Wars. So people who grew up with Beast Wars would be in their late teens at most when the movies entered preproduction. So your maths don't check out. All of those things you say are just design cues that say "This guy is an alien.". Which the Transformers are.

It does seem to be true that, in general, people who like Beast Wars designs also like Movie designs. But given than most people who watched Beast Wars as little kids were teens when the Bay movies came out, and thus the prime audience for the films, it's not surprising.

I believe Beast Wars had an older audience because of the early CGI tech

Maybe, but I read "grew up with" as "watched it as a kid". I guess we'd need to check whether Ben Procter was a Beast Wars fan or not. I know he was a G1 guy. He didn't design all of the robots, of course, but he was the team leader when it came to robot designs. However, I feel it's more of a case of "this are easy ways to tell people this things are NOT man-made."

If I can provide my two cents here, as a Beast Wars kid, I was six when it started and maybe six or seven when I discovered it. I'd guess probably 8 when I actually found a way to watch the cartoon. When the news about the live action movies dropped, I was 15 or so. I was a month shy of 17 when the first movie came out in 2007. Granted, all my peers at the time would have been in my age range, but the people I knew that also liked Beast Wars were the same age as me. Sure, there were older fans who went to Botcon and stuff, but even if you were on the older end of the target audience, say, about 10 years old, you would only be in your late teens or early 20s when the live action films began in earnest. Beast Wars kids, by and large, were not in the room for those movies. At least not the first one.

Rtron wrote:

chuckdawg1999 wrote:That's my big issue with Beast Wars, that and no real limbs in robot mode, odd proportions, chicken legs, etc. Obviously, people who grew up with Beast Wars designed the live-action movie bots.

The movies came only ten years after Beast Wars. So people who grew up with Beast Wars would be in their late teens at most when the movies entered preproduction. So your maths don't check out. All of those things you say are just design cues that say "This guy is an alien.". Which the Transformers are.

Indeed. And with the movies, Universal's bigwigs insisted on the designs going out of their way to look like life-forms rather than something somebody built. They would have been so extreme as to be unrecognizable as Transformers, but one of the toy designers was able to make a mockup that convinced them to back down. Honestly, I like that it re-expanded our design horizons - alien robots with reconfigurable mechanical bodies need not be bound to "humanoid but with short narrow thighs and long, broad calves" especially when that wasn't the established design for a particular universe's version of a character.

Also, as far as chicken-legs goes... Assuming you're talking about Starscream, chuckdawg, making him both bow-legged and digitigrade was an explicit decision to reduce his height, and make any scale cheating less blatant because scale cheating is a lot more noticeable in live action.
Same for Jetfire being a digitigrade hunchback - it reduced his height and made it easier to bring his eyeline closer to the level of humans.

blackeyedprime wrote:Think I'll wait for KO MP reissue or bite the bullet on MP at some point, Kingdoms good but if I'm just having one version of him on my shelves he loses out. Def confirms SS Grimlock is way too small for me so that is money saved on him and his team mates.

SS Grimlock is a head taller than SIEGE Ultra Magnus in robot mode, and appears to be close to that in dino mode as well. Just how freakin' big were you wanting him to be? Or were you assuming his height based on Megatron?

Dominus Prime wrote:I think because of this very debate among fans that they should have made it an option to remove the t-rex head to reveal a hand. Plus I don't see any ports on him for weaponizers, fossolizers etc

Look at the feet. There's probably also ports somewhere amid his back panels. I will say that I question moving his hip panels to the back. But on the plus side the right elbow has a lot more freedom of movement, and there'll be no fighting with the tail's gimmick during transformation.

What they should have made come off is the tail, which judging by ThiefThief's review is not the case. Megatron usually had that off outside of combat, and the Robot Masters toy and 10th-Anniversary Deluxe both had it be removable.

Chicken legs aren't really a thing in Beast Wars anyway, not even sure where that idea came from. There are a few figures that have unusual leg joints, but most of those are from Transmetals 2 like Cheetor and Scourge and that was just to emphasize their twisted appearance. Megatron doesn't have chicken legs since his robot knee sits back from the t-rex knee fixing his alignment to his foot.

BTW, I was a huge fan of Beast Wars when I was 16 in '96 and 27 when the first movie came out in 2007 so it isn't impossible for a fan of Beast Wars at the time (especially with an interest in art) to also have worked on a movie that came out 11 years later. That said, I've never once looked at the first movie and thought "that looks like it came out of Beast Wars".

Emerje

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

blackeyedprime wrote:Think I'll wait for KO MP reissue or bite the bullet on MP at some point, Kingdoms good but if I'm just having one version of him on my shelves he loses out. Def confirms SS Grimlock is way too small for me so that is money saved on him and his team mates.

SS Grimlock is a head taller than SIEGE Ultra Magnus in robot mode, and appears to be close to that in dino mode as well. Just how freakin' big were you wanting him to be? Or were you assuming his height based on Megatron?

Def wanted him to be old leader sized for bot mode but having seen Tontons video the oversized MP looks correct scale wise to the movie as deluxes would stand at head level with his dino legs. Oversize MP/MP with boots form Scoria/Fanstoys seems to be the correct scale dino wise. Siege Magnus really needs the DNA upgrade kit to give him his correct height (as well as complete vehicle mode) so for me Grimlock bot mode would have to be bigger than that or CW magnus -though I do prefer studio series shoulder line. Maybe Toyworld can oversize him. Fortunately none of the kingdom figures seem to need oversizing so far, though giant fossilisers would look cool it wouldnt work with the gimmick/5mm peg holes.

Sabrblade wrote:He's saying a head for a hand is impractical.

I'd say it's quite practical in battle. A weapon full of razor-sharp teeth and a built-in laser that you can never lose your grip on is pretty useful.

blackeyedprime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

blackeyedprime wrote:Think I'll wait for KO MP reissue or bite the bullet on MP at some point, Kingdoms good but if I'm just having one version of him on my shelves he loses out. Def confirms SS Grimlock is way too small for me so that is money saved on him and his team mates.

SS Grimlock is a head taller than SIEGE Ultra Magnus in robot mode, and appears to be close to that in dino mode as well. Just how freakin' big were you wanting him to be? Or were you assuming his height based on Megatron?

Def wanted him to be old leader sized for bot mode but having seen Tontons video the oversized MP looks correct scale wise to the movie as deluxes would stand at head level with his dino legs. Oversize MP/MP with boots form Scoria/Fanstoys seems to be the correct scale dino wise.

1. That's only as far as the movie goes, in that the movie heavily bloated the Dinobots' dino mode size in half the shots (basically every shot of them on Quintessa, and some of the shuttle flight shots). You have to balance that out with the show size, where they still loomed over most of the cast but they weren't that huge. The Quintessa shots inflate them to damn near Skyfire size.
2. At a head taller than SIEGE Magnus in robot mode, SS86 Grimlock pretty much is old leader size. That's the same margin by which TR and PotP Leaders are taller - I know this for certain because I have SIEGE Mags in front of PotP Roddy. Unless by old leader you meant RiD-DotM, in which case you were deluding yourself from the start because no Generations Leader has been that big; that size requires the Commander price point now.
3. Most WFC Deluxes will have their head at the level of his dino hips anyway, at least if I'm reading the depth of Prime vs Prime's group shot correctly.

blackeyedprime wrote:Siege Magnus really needs the DNA upgrade kit to give him his correct height (as well as complete vehicle mode) so for me Grimlock bot mode would have to be bigger than that or CW magnus -though I do prefer studio series shoulder line.

1. Going by the cartoon scale chart, SIEGE Magnus (unlike SIEGE Optimus) actually has his correct height. It's not correct going by how tall a trailer big enough to carry 4 Deluxe-class Autobots in car mode would be as armor (Which would actually put him in Skyfire's height category, so it's not like CW Magnus is really any better), but it's at least right by the animation and the chart.
2. Unless DNA has produced a newer, far more expansive kit than DK-14 (and as far as I can tell, they have not)... the DNA kit gives Ultra Magnus neither of those things. First off, his vehicle mode was already complete since it's based off RiD Magnus; all DK-14 does is make the cab stick out further, it's not like it makes the trailer more G1 or expands the carrying capacity. That would basically require a whole new, larger trailer - and that seems to be more effort than the lazy 3P bozos are willing to expend these days.
Second, DK-14 makes the inner robot more like a CW Voyager in height (which is admittedly nice), and it makes the armored mode closer in height to CW Magnus... but see what I said about UM's height in item 1.

I don't have any problem with anyone wanting things to be the way they want them, or buying supplemental products to create a mix of figures that match what they want, but the idea of "correct" scales or relative proportions has always seemed completely bonkers to me. Scale guides are to help animators do their jobs, they're not some kind of absolute or universal truth. Do what makes you happy, buy or don't buy what you want, build your collection your way with your rules -- but I'd encourage everyone to recognize that these are all yourself ultimately personal choices.

And maybe I'm the only one who has a problem! There's something about the word "correct" in this context that I just can't accept.

I think the scale guide becomes more acceptable when the companies themselves start going by it, plus then you have the movie series using it as well...

You're right though, ultimately we build our collections as we want them, adhering to what ever limits we set ourselves. Death actually had the best tone to take for an argument like this.

I understand wanting things to somehow adhere to some sort of scale specially something that matches what you see on screen and you want a physical representation of.

When you see Grimlock in the movie, you want something that looks like what you see on screen, and relates to others characters the same way it does on screen.

However with G1, its a fact of life that scale was hardly ever consistent even between one camera angle and another.

So wanting a hard scale for something from G1 is kind useless. The best you can hope for is something that is close to the general size of what you saw on screen, and SS Grimlock does that, specially if you are planning on pairing him with Earthrise figures like Prime.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:1. That's only as far as the movie goes, in that the movie heavily bloated the Dinobots' dino mode size in half the shots (basically every shot of them on Quintessa, and some of the shuttle flight shots). You have to balance that out with the show size, where they still loomed over most of the cast but they weren't that huge. The Quintessa shots inflate them to damn near Skyfire size.

Exactly why MP size fits them more and also the blurr trying to push Grimlock into the shuttle scene. They really are that big and when going off the movie for a figure then they should be movie sized... also in the original cartoon Grimlocks dino jaws comfortably can fit in optimus primes leg width wise.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:2. At a head taller than SIEGE Magnus in robot mode, SS86 Grimlock pretty much is old leader size. That's the same margin by which TR and PotP Leaders are taller - I know this for certain because I have SIEGE Mags in front of PotP Roddy. Unless by old leader you meant RiD-DotM, in which case you were deluding yourself from the start because no Generations Leader has been that big; that size requires the Commander price point now.

Even the SS Grimlock (*edit: which still needed oversizing for onscreen representation tbf) was crouched in his box to fit him in, would like to have seen that with SS86 Grimlock. Would be nice to see some pics of them side by side. Commander class sized figures have sold for as little as $45 being less than a leader class after hitting retail or even upon hitting retail in in uk (£45 amazon) so what they can do per 'size class' is really up to them and which way the wind blows.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:1. Going by the cartoon scale chart, SIEGE Magnus (unlike SIEGE Optimus) actually has his correct height. It's not correct going by how tall a trailer big enough to carry 4 Deluxe-class Autobots in car mode would be as armor (Which would actually put him in Skyfire's height category, so it's not like CW Magnus is really any better), but it's at least right by the animation and the chart.

Magnus towers over Optimus, so wanting Optimus to be bigger must mean Magnus has to be too? and if we are relying on Netflix WFC for scale for the figures, the tetra jets should have been TR Astrotrain size in bot mode when next to Magnus so once again cartoon scale is whack just as much as figure scales are.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:2. Unless DNA has produced a newer, far more expansive kit than DK-14 (and as far as I can tell, they have not)... the DNA kit gives Ultra Magnus neither of those things. First off, his vehicle mode was already complete since it's based off RiD Magnus; all DK-14 does is make the cab stick out further, it's not like it makes the trailer more G1 or expands the carrying capacity. That would basically require a whole new, larger trailer - and that seems to be more effort than the lazy 3P bozos are willing to expend these days.
Second, DK-14 makes the inner robot more like a CW Voyager in height (which is admittedly nice), and it makes the armored mode closer in height to CW Magnus... but see what I said about UM's height in item 1.

His empty wheel space and opening trailer -which is mainly due from the trailers design. Whilst its super cool to have Car Robot homage as it doent do what the original figure did it might as well look complete and have some functionality as a car carrier. Kingdoms magnus should solve some of the issues with the Siege figure but likely it wont be as tall as CW Magnus/Upgraded siege and which if it is, Grimlock is def too small.
I'm happy enough to have MP Magnus or KFC Stack alongside the Siege figures for G1 toy scale vibe but for movie scale the size they have used doesnt cut it for me and why CW magnus stays on my movie figure shelves and why SS86 Grimlock wont be.

Looking forward to seeing Kingdom Magnus even if it doesnt tick my personal boxes.

Kingdom core Optimus Prime video review by Emgo
https://youtu.be/xcX7HA-GVJQ

Regarding kingdom megatron, from tonton's review, i like what i see so far. I get the feeling his dino head can probably come off, seeing as there's suspicious opening mechanism on the neck area that tonton seems to ignore, and his backpack probably a bit mistransformed, or can be arranged better. Dunno, i just watching his review to see how the transformation works, and never really trust him for tidbits informations, considering he never got instructions with these toys, and he never really cared about them anyway, as he isn't a transformers fans to begin with.

So many good discussions going on at the same time right now.

King Kuuga wrote:I was six when it started and maybe six or seven when I discovered it. I'd guess probably 8 when I actually found a way to watch the cartoon. When the news about the live action movies dropped, I was 15 or so. I was a month shy of 17 when the first movie came out in 2007...Beast Wars kids, by and large, were not in the room for those movies. At least not the first one.

I had almost the exact same experience up until you said BW fans weren't in the theater for Bay's first movie. Seems all the people watching Bay movies around me were my either my age (round 17 at the time) or my parent's age (boomers). All the genx guys 10+ years older than me (G1 fans) that I talked to hated it and refused to go see it.

chuckdawg1999 wrote:I believe Beast Wars had an older audience because of the early CGI tech

My dad was/is no where near a TF fan and he loved BW because of the CGI. LOVED IT. Lol.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:making [Starscream] both bow-legged and digitigrade was an explicit decision to reduce his height, and make any scale cheating less blatant because scale cheating is a lot more noticeable in live action.
Same for Jetfire being a digitigrade hunchback - it reduced his height and made it easier to bring his eyeline closer to the level of humans.

I love the behind-the-scenes stuff. Very cool. I always find that understanding what went into decisions makes the decisions make a lot more sense. BTW movie Starscream looks freaking awesome regardless of "why" IMHO.

Emerje wrote:Chicken legs aren't really a thing in Beast Wars anyway, not even sure where that idea came from. There are a few figures that have unusual leg joints, but most of those are from Transmetals 2 like Cheetor and Scourge and that was just to emphasize their twisted appearance. Megatron doesn't have chicken legs since his robot knee sits back from the t-rex knee fixing his alignment to his foot.

I would say Claw, Jaw, Armordillo, Rattrap, Tarantulas, Scorponok, Airrazor, Airhammer, Cidacadon, Ram Horn, Iguanus (shall I go on?) could be said to have 'chicken legs' when compared to almost any G1 character, Jazz, Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Grapple, Huffer, etc. I think 'chicken legs' is a pretty dumb way to describe it though, I mean in that case you could say a Spider Man or Batman figure have 'chicken legs'. But hey, G1 people seem committed to hating on other toylines, so I let them have it most of the time, lol...

AcademyofDrX wrote:Scale guides are to help animators do their jobs, they're not some kind of absolute or universal truth....There's something about the word "correct" in this context that I just can't accept.

I mean, I can agree and disagree with you. They are just toys and in that sense, should really only be purchased if they're actually going to be FUN and not just if they do / don't fit in with an overly airtight rule guide. But then again, there is an imagination element in it all that comes "into play" (lol) that does want to, for instance, have a toy of a Dinobot be larger than a toy of a Mustang, you know. I dunno. You know?

Bone Age wrote:So many good discussions going on at the same time right now.

King Kuuga wrote:I was six when it started and maybe six or seven when I discovered it. I'd guess probably 8 when I actually found a way to watch the cartoon. When the news about the live action movies dropped, I was 15 or so. I was a month shy of 17 when the first movie came out in 2007...Beast Wars kids, by and large, were not in the room for those movies. At least not the first one.

I had almost the exact same experience up until you said BW fans weren't in the theater for Bay's first movie.

When he said "in the room for", he meant "involved with the production of".

Sabrblade wrote:

Bone Age wrote:So many good discussions going on at the same time right now.

King Kuuga wrote:I was six when it started and maybe six or seven when I discovered it. I'd guess probably 8 when I actually found a way to watch the cartoon. When the news about the live action movies dropped, I was 15 or so. I was a month shy of 17 when the first movie came out in 2007...Beast Wars kids, by and large, were not in the room for those movies. At least not the first one.

I had almost the exact same experience up until you said BW fans weren't in the theater for Bay's first movie.

When he said "in the room for", he meant "involved with the production of".

That makes a lot more sense. I had a feeling I was misinterpreting what he'd said, I almost went back and edited to say that. Thank ya.

Bone Age wrote:

Emerje wrote:Chicken legs aren't really a thing in Beast Wars anyway, not even sure where that idea came from. There are a few figures that have unusual leg joints, but most of those are from Transmetals 2 like Cheetor and Scourge and that was just to emphasize their twisted appearance. Megatron doesn't have chicken legs since his robot knee sits back from the t-rex knee fixing his alignment to his foot.

I would say Claw, Jaw, Armordillo, Rattrap, Tarantulas, Scorponok, Airrazor, Airhammer, Cidacadon, Ram Horn, Iguanus (shall I go on?) could be said to have 'chicken legs' when compared to almost any G1 character, Jazz, Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Grapple, Huffer, etc. I think 'chicken legs' is a pretty dumb way to describe it though, I mean in that case you could say a Spider Man or Batman figure have 'chicken legs'. But hey, G1 people seem committed to hating on other toylines, so I let them have it most of the time, lol...

Um, what? I think you misunderstand what people mean by "chicken legs".

These are "chicken legs".





It's all about that extra bend in the leg that give them a bird-like appearance.



All of the BW figures you named have normal straight legs.

Emerje

We knew that there would be a significant difference in height between the two first voyagers in the upcoming Transformers War for Cybertron Kingdom line. However, we weren't sure if that meant Cyclonus would be much taller than normal or if Optimus Primal would be shorter than normal (normal being your standard faction leader, like Optimus Prime and Megatron, which are usually voyager height). Well, while we do not have comparisons for Cyclonus, we do have some for Primal and he isn't all that tall. You can see the images below which we found on Vector Sigma's Facebook page.