The Energon Pub

Cyclo_nus wrote:You can't forget rodimus prime, even though in wfc the council of elders told optimus was the last prime.

Not to sound rude but, how does WFC contribute to this topic?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Cyclo_nus wrote:You can't forget rodimus prime, even though in wfc the council of elders told optimus was the last prime.

Not to sound rude but, how does WFC contribute to this topic?

Well they still said he's the last prime there? Right?

Cyclo_nus wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Cyclo_nus wrote:You can't forget rodimus prime, even though in wfc the council of elders told optimus was the last prime.

Not to sound rude but, how does WFC contribute to this topic?

Well they still said he's the last prime there? Right?

A] I dont have the game so I cant be sure.
B] WFC may be G1 inspired....but its not part of G1 continuity.

So, theres no reason to believe there will be a Rodimus Prime in WFC [if there isint bone already]

Also, if Rodimus Prime shows up, he becomes a Prime after Optimus.

So, Optimus is the last TILL Rodimus comes along.

And thats a big difference between a new character "BECOMING" a Prime and one that already exists.If Bay had chosen to bring in Rodimus Prime it wouldnt have been an issue at all.

And I'm sorry,the council of elders dont really compare statue-wize with the ghost of the first primes.

Pontimax 01 wrote:I don't really know why everyone is screaming bloody murder about a "plot hole" in a movie that hasn't been released yet.

We have absolutely no proof that Sentinel had been online during the events of ROTF. The ship on the moon was described as a living tomb, it crashed there, we know NASA investigates it in the '60's. The teaser DID NOT specify that he reactivates THEN. Just at some point he does. Which could be AFTER ROTF. And since I seriously doubt NASA had the ability to bring him back from the moon, he may have layed there dormant for decades until something/someone in modern day reawakens him. Not online + no other Cybertronian knows where the hell you're at = dead at the time.

THIS!!!
I think everyone should consider this before throwing grenades at each other.

Shadowman wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:THIS!!! Except I did get a deep intellectual stimulation...after I analyzed every grain of sand and every sentence and outfit the characters wore in the movie...you learn a lot. Maybe most of it was coincidence, or they may have been subtle hints that no one but me has ever noticed before;IDK.

There was nothing intellectual about any of the movies. Anything can seem intellectual, but most of the time it's because the viewer is looking too deep. What you think you see and what the makers intended are two very different things. Learn to tell the difference.

But isn't the way you see the movie the reason you enjoy it? Everything is perspective. Every one likes things for different reasons.

shamone wrote:he was the last prime, but this is the bayformers where the only thing to stop the fallen is a prime. so what do the primes do, kill themselves to hide the matrix, thereby having no way to stop the fallen if he does find the matrix

Jetfire said the Fallen was more powerful than the others so they had no chance of defeating him. And sacrificing themselves to hide the Matrix worked didn't it? The Fallen never found it. The movie makes sense if you pay attention.

SlyTF1 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:THIS!!! Except I did get a deep intellectual stimulation...after I analyzed every grain of sand and every sentence and outfit the characters wore in the movie...you learn a lot. Maybe most of it was coincidence, or they may have been subtle hints that no one but me has ever noticed before;IDK.

There was nothing intellectual about any of the movies. Anything can seem intellectual, but most of the time it's because the viewer is looking too deep. What you think you see and what the makers intended are two very different things. Learn to tell the difference.

But isn't the way you see the movie the reason you enjoy it? Everything is perspective. Every one likes things for different reasons.

Yes, good point Sly. I was going to say the same thing in response to that same post.

SlyTF1 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:THIS!!! Except I did get a deep intellectual stimulation...after I analyzed every grain of sand and every sentence and outfit the characters wore in the movie...you learn a lot. Maybe most of it was coincidence, or they may have been subtle hints that no one but me has ever noticed before;IDK.

There was nothing intellectual about any of the movies. Anything can seem intellectual, but most of the time it's because the viewer is looking too deep. What you think you see and what the makers intended are two very different things. Learn to tell the difference.

But isn't the way you see the movie the reason you enjoy it? Everything is perspective. Every one likes things for different reasons.

You're right about that...but that has nothing to do with what I said. There's a big difference between enjoying a movie, and trying to see something that isn't there.

Shadowman wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:THIS!!! Except I did get a deep intellectual stimulation...after I analyzed every grain of sand and every sentence and outfit the characters wore in the movie...you learn a lot. Maybe most of it was coincidence, or they may have been subtle hints that no one but me has ever noticed before;IDK.

There was nothing intellectual about any of the movies. Anything can seem intellectual, but most of the time it's because the viewer is looking too deep. What you think you see and what the makers intended are two very different things. Learn to tell the difference.

But isn't the way you see the movie the reason you enjoy it? Everything is perspective. Every one likes things for different reasons.

You're right about that...but that has nothing to do with what I said. There's a big difference between enjoying a movie, and trying to see something that isn't there.

It's there, you said yourself that I was looking to deep. No matter how deep I went into it, I still found it.

SlyTF1 wrote:It's there, you said yourself that I was looking to deep. No matter how deep I went into it, I still found it.

No, you didn't. You just think you did, because you wanted to. It isn't there, but you twisted the facts because you wanted it to be. You're looking too closely, and you're no longer seeing it for what it really is.

Plus, you think Michael Bay movies are "intellectual." That just shows how very little you know of both him and his work.

Shadowman wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:It's there, you said yourself that I was looking to deep. No matter how deep I went into it, I still found it.

No, you didn't. You just think you did, because you wanted to. It isn't there, but you twisted the facts because you wanted it to be. You're looking too closely, and you're no longer seeing it for what it really is.

Plus, you think Michael Bay movies are "intellectual." That just shows how very little you know of both him and his work.

It is there! I see it! I've watched the movie enough to know that what I see is there.

SlyTF1 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:It's there, you said yourself that I was looking to deep. No matter how deep I went into it, I still found it.

No, you didn't. You just think you did, because you wanted to. It isn't there, but you twisted the facts because you wanted it to be. You're looking too closely, and you're no longer seeing it for what it really is.

Plus, you think Michael Bay movies are "intellectual." That just shows how very little you know of both him and his work.

It is there! I see it! I've watched the movie enough to know that what I see is there.

You know how people look at clouds and say like "I think that one looks like a rabbit?" That does not meant the cloud is an actual rabbit. Understand? You're only seeing what you want to see, even though it isn't actually there.

OptiMagnus10 wrote:

Pontimax 01 wrote:I don't really know why everyone is screaming bloody murder about a "plot hole" in a movie that hasn't been released yet.

We have absolutely no proof that Sentinel had been online during the events of ROTF. The ship on the moon was described as a living tomb, it crashed there, we know NASA investigates it in the '60's. The teaser DID NOT specify that he reactivates THEN. Just at some point he does. Which could be AFTER ROTF. And since I seriously doubt NASA had the ability to bring him back from the moon, he may have layed there dormant for decades until something/someone in modern day reawakens him. Not online + no other Cybertronian knows where the hell you're at = dead at the time.

THIS!!!
I think everyone should consider this before throwing grenades at each other.

This is almost exactly what I stated at the beginning of this thread and would put money on it that this is how it will happen in the movie. At least one person is on the same page as me lol

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:2.I'm not trying to twist it.The speed of thought is faster and more maneuverable than the speed of time, and magic is just physics.

Still a bit of a twist, because the messege delivered in the last film was that the Ghost were comunicating from the "super natural" level, and not trew time and space.

Yes, absolutely:Supernatural or preternatural or hypernatural or paranormal or even submaterial or surreal or Quasi-real:every unexplainable technology gets labeled magic,and once accessible it becomes treasure.
Each cinemagoer can choose the easiest logical destination to arrive to agreement with the image on screen by labelling what he is witnessing. One will elect to witness robot heaven,the next Universal heaven[my most preffered] ,or even Elysium or Asphodel),the next will think Astral projection and another further on will think telepathy,prerecorded message playback,complete and utter fantasiosis with no actual event occuring outside of Sams mind (that is, there is NO discussion, Sams mind is just creating the event that will make his body get up and keep moving towards eventual safety),lucid dreaming or whatever else.Even "head injury" can explain it all if desired.
I understand your warnings about what is confirmed and what shouldn't be assumed, and I hear you and agree fully with you.
Specifically with the robo-heaven deal,I go by the consideration that Jetfires' teleportation doesn't get named teleportation or a dimension door or whatever, but space bridge.
Also, the whole ressurection thing contains no magical (or holy) elixir,just an allspark shard-which is visibly a mechanism (not machine,slight diff).
(Whether the original device [the cube]contained only a program+energy reservoir or some type of life-form or format thereof is a different question) but overall,technology overrides magic in this series.
It sets the caloupe for what the writers are establishing as guidelines for our trains of thought.Once they do it once it's the explanation for the rest-basically continuity.

Also, the defenition of 'the supernatural level' is getting pushed back these days to make way for the defenitions and borders of the dimensions.The 'Supernatural' is 3x as natural and as normal as it once was.

Closer to topic: What are the possibilities that the mechtech stuff is delivered into team:Optimus via either Sentinel or the Matrix as an upgrade?

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:Yes, absolutely:Supernatural or preternatural or hypernatural or paranormal or even submaterial or surreal or Quasi-real:every unexplainable technology gets labeled magic,and once accessible it becomes treasure.
Each cinemagoer can choose the easiest logical destination to arrive to agreement with the image on screen by labelling what he is witnessing. One will elect to witness robot heaven,the next Universal heaven[my most preffered] ,or even Elysium or Asphodel),the next will think Astral projection and another further on will think telepathy,prerecorded message playback,complete and utter fantasiosis with no actual event occuring outside of Sams mind (that is, there is NO discussion, Sams mind is just creating the event that will make his body get up and keep moving towards eventual safety),lucid dreaming or whatever else.Even "head injury" can explain it all if desired.
I understand your warnings about what is confirmed and what shouldn't be assumed, and I hear you and agree fully with you.
Specifically with the robo-heaven deal,I go by the consideration that Jetfires' teleportation doesn't get named teleportation or a dimension door or whatever, but space bridge.

All your trying to to is twist what was seen and said in the last film to fit better for you.

Which is fine, but it diminishes the message the last film was trying to make.

Also, the whole ressurection thing contains no magical (or holy) elixir,just an allspark shard-which is visibly a mechanism (not machine,slight diff).

Not completely accurate either.

The power the alspark, and its shard, contained within was never explained and was depicted as magical or a holy elixir.

but overall,technology overrides magic in this series.

No, it seems to go hand in hand.

Also, the defenition of 'the supernatural level' is getting pushed back these days to make way for the defenitions and borders of the dimensions.The 'Supernatural' is 3x as natural and as normal as it once was.

Even if thats so, it doesnt really change how it was depicted in this story

Closer to topic: What are the possibilities that the mechtech stuff is delivered into team:Optimus via either Sentinel or the Matrix as an upgrade?

not sure what you mean here.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
— Arthur C. Clarke

Just putting that one out there.

Another idea is that the AllSpark fragment contained the minds of the Primes, (Optimus stated that the AllSpark was also a historical archive) and those hallucinations Sam had were those same minds trying to lead Sam to the Matrix, as well as planting in his mind the idea that just because it's disintegrated, he still needs to take the Matrix with him. That final hallucination was their minds telling him good job, before using the energy he absorbed (That caused the hallucinations in the first place) to restart Sam's body.

Shadowman wrote:"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
— Arthur C. Clarke

Just putting that one out there.

Another idea is that the AllSpark fragment contained the minds of the Primes, (Optimus stated that the AllSpark was also a historical archive) and those hallucinations Sam had were those same minds trying to lead Sam to the Matrix, as well as planting in his mind the idea that just because it's disintegrated, he still needs to take the Matrix with him. That final hallucination was their minds telling him good job, before using the energy he absorbed (That caused the hallucinations in the first place) to restart Sam's body.

you know this explanation makes me hate the "god robot magic" schtick a bit less...

Shadowman wrote:"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
— Arthur C. Clarke

Just putting that one out there.

Another idea is that the AllSpark fragment contained the minds of the Primes, (Optimus stated that the AllSpark was also a historical archive) and those hallucinations Sam had were those same minds trying to lead Sam to the Matrix, as well as planting in his mind the idea that just because it's disintegrated, he still needs to take the Matrix with him. That final hallucination was their minds telling him good job, before using the energy he absorbed (That caused the hallucinations in the first place) to restart Sam's body.

That's exactly how I saw it, no robot heaven just more Allspark shenanigans.

Shadowman wrote:"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
— Arthur C. Clarke

Just putting that one out there.

Another idea is that the AllSpark fragment contained the minds of the Primes, (Optimus stated that the AllSpark was also a historical archive) and those hallucinations Sam had were those same minds trying to lead Sam to the Matrix, as well as planting in his mind the idea that just because it's disintegrated, he still needs to take the Matrix with him. That final hallucination was their minds telling him good job, before using the energy he absorbed (That caused the hallucinations in the first place) to restart Sam's body.

Thank you.

It's Clarke's Third Law There are a few corollaries to it, though:

"If it is distinguishable from magic, it's not advanced enough."
"Any sufficiently advanced alien is indistinguishable from God."
"Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it."
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."

So there's that.

I understand what AC was trying to put forth there, but I dont see how it applies in this case.

The idea that magic and "godhood" are staples of sci-fi stories that try to explain those "higher power" issues with science.

But in this case, the writers seemed to be going out of their way to say this indecent was truly super natural.That the TF are about science and tech, but that there is also a super natural, meta physical aspect to their being as well.Something that cant be explained.

BeastWarsFTW wrote:

OptiMagnus10 wrote:

Pontimax 01 wrote:I don't really know why everyone is screaming bloody murder about a "plot hole" in a movie that hasn't been released yet.

We have absolutely no proof that Sentinel had been online during the events of ROTF. The ship on the moon was described as a living tomb, it crashed there, we know NASA investigates it in the '60's. The teaser DID NOT specify that he reactivates THEN. Just at some point he does. Which could be AFTER ROTF. And since I seriously doubt NASA had the ability to bring him back from the moon, he may have layed there dormant for decades until something/someone in modern day reawakens him. Not online + no other Cybertronian knows where the hell you're at = dead at the time.

THIS!!!
I think everyone should consider this before throwing grenades at each other.

This is almost exactly what I stated at the beginning of this thread and would put money on it that this is how it will happen in the movie. At least one person is on the same page as me lol

Hey, it makes me feel less weird too. Glad I'm not the only one.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I understand what AC was trying to put forth there, but I dont see how it applies in this case.

The idea that magic and "godhood" are staples of sci-fi stories that try to explain those "higher power" issues with science.

We're having trouble distinguishing advanced alien technology from magic. I'd say it applies perfectly.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:But in this case, the writers seemed to be going out of their way to say this indecent was truly super natural.That the TF are about science and tech, but that there is also a super natural, meta physical aspect to their being as well.Something that cant be explained.

On the one hand, just because that's what you inferred from it, doesn't mean that's what happened. On the other hand, the metaphysical isn't uncommon in Transformers.

Shadowman wrote:We're having trouble distinguishing advanced alien technology from magic. I'd say it applies perfectly.

Maybe you and some others are having trouble distinguishing what you saw in the film but I'm not.

And truth be told, if your having that trouble with this issue then your doing exactly what you accused SlyTF1 of doing.

"You're only seeing what you want to see, even though it isn't actually there".

The writers werent trying to ve vague about what we were shown, they werent trying to blurr the line about should be considered alient tech.

They were trying to do the opposite, they were trying to show us that to even an alien people based on technology,there can still be such a thing as "godlike" and the supernatural

On the one hand, just because that's what you inferred from it, doesn't mean that's what happened. On the other hand, the metaphysical isn't uncommon in Transformers.

True enough

Where does it say "THIS IS SUPERNATURAL!" in a way that can't be simply explained away with "Sam is constantly hallucinating after touching that AllSpark fragment." I think the only solid example would be the Fallen's telekinesis, and even that can be explained away as manipulating gravitational fields or some such thing.

The supernatural is, by definition, an event or object that can't be explained. Now find something that can't be explained. Otherwise, you're trying to see something that isn't there.