This page contains affiliate links. We may earn commissions when readers interact with or purchase items through these links. For more information, see our affiliate disclosures here.

Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Discuss anything about the Transformers cartoons and comics! You can discuss anything from G1 to Cybertron as well as the comics from Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW and more!

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:40 pm

- Oh, that's true. Beast Wars opened the door to the planet being (from the Japanese point of view) inexplicably back.

Right, Ratchet should be dead too. I need to keep track of when they toy comes out, actually. They never explained that plot hole? Seems like it should be easy enough. And right up that mini comic's alley. Oh well.

Is Nucleon Quest Convoy canon? I guess you're bringing it up so it must be. Do they have an organized list or is it all done on the fly with them desperately trying to fix plot holes when they can?
Gauntlet101010
Guardian Of Seibertron
Posts: 5383
News Credits: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:13 pm

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:09 pm

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
Gauntlet101010 wrote:Right, Ratchet should be dead too. I need to keep track of when they toy comes out, actually. They never explained that plot hole? Seems like it should be easy enough. And right up that mini comic's alley. Oh well.
Yeah, after his inexplicable cameo in The Headmasters, Ironhide again appeared alive in two e-HOBBY mini-comics created for a couple of Masterpiece toys (the black version of MP-1 Convoy and the ghost version of MP-3 Starscream), both of which were set right after G2. That was the first indicator that we were sorely missing some new story that explained how Ironhide (and Ratchet) came back to life. And it's quite an oversight that it's still yet to be told.

Image

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Is Nucleon Quest Convoy canon? I guess you're bringing it up so it must be.
Yeah, and it even got followed up with the first Metrowars comic being set around the same time, with Super Convoy making a one-panel appearance:

Image

And then him showing up again in a flashback seen in the Legends comic for Titan class Metroplex (at the bottom of this page):

Image

Funnily enough, the Super Convoy toy bio also introduced Nebulans and Powermasters into JG1 as separate things from both the inhabitants of Planet Master and Godmasters, respectively. The Legends Metroplex manga even depicted Hi-Q as looking like his Marvel Comics counterpart, as seen on the very next page when Super Convoy becomes Action Master Convoy:

Image


Gauntlet101010 wrote:Do they have an organized list or is it all done on the fly with them desperately trying to fix plot holes when they can?
I'm guessing it's more something that's done simply at the discretion of the writer, patching up whatever plot holes they can think of and wish to fix. But not so much these days, what with the mangas for Legends, Unite Warriors, and Generations Selects having all since ended some years ago.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:44 pm

Robot Masters

Before I begin watching Car Robots and start (maybe) regretting not backing Omega Prime I figured I'd watch the two 6 minute "OVAs" for Robot Masters. It's a bit out of order, but they feature characters from all the shows I just finished watching, so it feels like a good endcap.

I have a few toys from this line. G1 Convoy (2 of them since one broke), Victory Saber (the sword's handle broke, cheap POS), and Thundercracker and Skywarp (they were a set). Wish I coulda snagged Reverse Convoy. / Megatron, but no dice.

Right away I wonder at how canon this is. After all, everyone is meeting everyone else.

Beast Megatron isn't acting like a loony. I wonder why he's so sane, knowing that sanity is a trait found in our version of the character.

It's cool to see Primal interact with two other Primes, even if it's in terrible quality CGI. The second episode has an ok battle sequence. With the whole tornado thing going on I wonder why Lio Convoy didn't use his Lio Typhoon attack. Guess they forgot all about it? That'd track...

Reverse Convoy immediately discards his disguise. But the episode is only 6 minutes long, what can you do? It's a cool concept. I know he comes back in a Legends manga with that same feature. Here he just comes off as the world's worst spy, lol.

What I really wanted to see from this was the depiction of Beast Megatron since I now know he's a looney toon. And here he's normal. Go fig. I guess he loses a bit of style points ... but these are only six minutes long.
Gauntlet101010
Guardian Of Seibertron
Posts: 5383
News Credits: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:13 pm

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:55 pm

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
Gauntlet101010 wrote:Right away I wonder at how canon this is. After all, everyone is meeting everyone else.
The RobotMasters comics are the primary fiction. These OVAs are just heavily abridged samples of the main story that adapt bits and pieces of it, but otherwise don't provide the full picture. They're basically advertisements that say "If you liked these, check out the comics for the real story!"

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Beast Megatron isn't acting like a loony. I wonder why he's so sane, knowing that sanity is a trait found in our version of the character.
Likely because it's not Shigeru Chiba voicing him. None of the characters' original voice actors returned for these two OVA shorts.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:It's cool to see Primal interact with two other Primes, even if it's in terrible quality CGI. The second episode has an ok battle sequence. With the whole tornado thing going on I wonder why Lio Convoy didn't use his Lio Typhoon attack. Guess they forgot all about it? That'd track...
The OVAs were also likely not written by anyone that familiar with the original shows that these characters came from or their respective lore. The comics were more reverent in that regard.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Reverse Convoy immediately discards his disguise. But the episode is only 6 minutes long, what can you do? It's a cool concept. I know he comes back in a Legends manga with that same feature. Here he just comes off as the world's worst spy, lol.
Yeah, that didn't happen so quickly in the comics.

The wiki team is still in the process of getting all of those comics translated.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 3:48 pm

It's still somewhat disappointing that they didn't even try to get Beast Megatron's mannerism's down.

Well, sort of disappointing. On my end he acts like the Megatron I'm familiar with so it's better for me. But for the intended audience, even if it's not the original VA, it had to fall flat. I mean, this is the first time we're seeing our old friend in ages. Seems like a missed opportunity. In this 6 minute toy advert.

Maybe at some point I'll check out the manga, but the shows are already quite daunting. I hear the current comic is really great. And there are bits of the old Marvel run I ought to check out, really. But I can't catch up on everything after all.
Gauntlet101010
Guardian Of Seibertron
Posts: 5383
News Credits: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:13 pm

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Apr 24, 2024 4:51 pm

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
Gauntlet101010 wrote:It's still somewhat disappointing that they didn't even try to get Beast Megatron's mannerism's down.

Well, sort of disappointing. On my end he acts like the Megatron I'm familiar with so it's better for me. But for the intended audience, even if it's not the original VA, it had to fall flat. I mean, this is the first time we're seeing our old friend in ages. Seems like a missed opportunity. In this 6 minute toy advert.
Ah, but Beast Machines wasn't released in Japan until late 2004 to early 2005 (where it was renamed "Beast Wars Returns"), so its Japanese release was contemporary to RobotMasters.

And, well, there's also the notion that seasons 2-3 of Beast Wars ("Beast Wars Metals") kinda flopped in Japan, which is why Beast Machines wasn't immediately dubbed over there and was held off until 2004. Car Robots was Takara's attempt to revitalize the brand by bringing back realistic vehicles for the 15th anniversary, but it too didn't fair much better.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Maybe at some point I'll check out the manga, but the shows are already quite daunting. I hear the current comic is really great. And there are bits of the old Marvel run I ought to check out, really. But I can't catch up on everything after all.
Oh, the RobotMasters manga is short. The Wiki has all of it archived on one page (we just need to finish the translation).
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:43 pm

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
Oh! I forgot to ask before. What did you think of the retcon/revelation that Angolmois Energy is actually Unicron's energy, especially in light of BWII consistently and repeatedly stating that it's the sacred life energy of planet Gaia/Earth?
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Fri Apr 26, 2024 7:05 am

Sabrblade wrote:Oh! I forgot to ask before. What did you think of the retcon/revelation that Angolmois Energy is actually Unicron's energy, especially in light of BWII consistently and repeatedly stating that it's the sacred life energy of planet Gaia/Earth?

So, I've always known this twist. Even if I haven't watched the shows I have read some articles on the wiki on some of the characters involved. But I haven't watched any of the episodes and I try to experience them as fresh as I can.

So in a word...

Nonsensical. Like, completely nonsensical.

I guess, if I forget the actual events of the animated movie and just sort of image the Autobots sealing away Unicron into the Earth a million years ago I can kinda see how it could happen. Everyone just forgets that it wasn't naturally a part of the planet originally, but something that became so. THEN ... sure. Okay, guys. Just like how I have to image the Destrons came from planet Dinosaur instead of Cybertron or that Cybertron and Vector Sigma both weren't blown up good in a poorly thought out plot twist.

But we do know what happened to Unicron. Roddy blew him up good. I remember reading that they were collecting energy ages ago and it was Unicron and I thought it was the energy dispersed at the end of TFTM, but no. No it just, somehow, wound up all on Earth. Actually, while we're on discontinuity, this kinda has Marvel influence regarding Unicron, albeit probably unintentionally. Movie Unicron was purely mechanical. Marvel was the demigod.

It wouldn't be too hard to bridge this story gap. You need just one story where Unicron's head winds up on Earth and partially revives set in 2010 or Headmasters. As it stands, however, this would still be a retcon and the entire story rests on half remembered memories of G1 and the hope nobody watches their VHSs or Laserdisks of TFTM. And it's a shame because I don't think it needed to be like that. You just need even one line where someone goes "a mad decepticon tried to revive Unicron on Gaia a long time ago and he's been a part of the planet ever since then' or something. Maybe with a still of some likely candidate. Scourge and Cyclonus post-Headmasters maybe? And them being stopped by the Headmasters? But that didn't happen. Because they didn't know their lore deeply enough. Or maybe they didn't want to overwhelm kids who wouldn't know or care about it. The Decepticon homeworld being eaten is a stronger motivation for Magmatron than just the memory of Unicon himself even if it makes no damned sense.

Of course, if I were watching this at the time, I think I'd be happy just to have him back. Right now we're at a time where G1 is just starting to rest it's iron-tight grip on the franchise. I have a giant Unicron right beside me. Back then there wasn't even one single Unicron toy. They cancelled BW Neo's and we all were robbed. So I'd probably yadda yadda it. "Rodimus blew up Unicron, he's a head floating around in space - yadda yadda yadda - and his energy wound up in planet Earth - enjoy your surprise reveal!"

Actually, thinking of how the Unite Warriors cast rebuilt Cybertron, how could they possibly reconcile that with Beast Machines and it's organic core? Or maybe the Autobots found a nearby dead world and used that as a base to rebuild Cybertron? It was rather cored...maybe they found some small moon and plopped it in the center like a tootsie pop and build around it? It being blown up is such a problem. Any random Quintesson can bring back Ironhide or Ratchet, but rebuilding a planet is a **** task!
Gauntlet101010
Guardian Of Seibertron
Posts: 5383
News Credits: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:13 pm

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:25 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
Gauntlet101010 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Oh! I forgot to ask before. What did you think of the retcon/revelation that Angolmois Energy is actually Unicron's energy, especially in light of BWII consistently and repeatedly stating that it's the sacred life energy of planet Gaia/Earth?

So, I've always known this twist. Even if I haven't watched the shows I have read some articles on the wiki on some of the characters involved. But I haven't watched any of the episodes and I try to experience them as fresh as I can.

So in a word...

Nonsensical. Like, completely nonsensical.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's funny how people who knew about this just accepted it for so many years, but then both series finally get translated and it's realized how it actually makes little sense as presented. The Unicron reveal really was a retcon, but people took it at face value without ever knowing about the original "sacred life energy of Earth" bit.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I guess, if I forget the actual events of the animated movie and just sort of image the Autobots sealing away Unicron into the Earth a million years ago I can kinda see how it could happen. Everyone just forgets that it wasn't naturally a part of the planet originally, but something that became so. THEN ... sure. Okay, guys. Just like how I have to image the Destrons came from planet Dinosaur instead of Cybertron or that Cybertron and Vector Sigma both weren't blown up good in a poorly thought out plot twist.

But we do know what happened to Unicron. Roddy blew him up good. I remember reading that they were collecting energy ages ago and it was Unicron and I thought it was the energy dispersed at the end of TFTM, but no. No it just, somehow, wound up all on Earth. Actually, while we're on discontinuity, this kinda has Marvel influence regarding Unicron, albeit probably unintentionally. Movie Unicron was purely mechanical. Marvel was the demigod.

It wouldn't be too hard to bridge this story gap. You need just one story where Unicron's head winds up on Earth and partially revives set in 2010 or Headmasters. As it stands, however, this would still be a retcon and the entire story rests on half remembered memories of G1 and the hope nobody watches their VHSs or Laserdisks of TFTM. And it's a shame because I don't think it needed to be like that. You just need even one line where someone goes "a mad decepticon tried to revive Unicron on Gaia a long time ago and he's been a part of the planet ever since then' or something. Maybe with a still of some likely candidate. Scourge and Cyclonus post-Headmasters maybe? And them being stopped by the Headmasters? But that didn't happen. Because they didn't know their lore deeply enough. Or maybe they didn't want to overwhelm kids who wouldn't know or care about it. The Decepticon homeworld being eaten is a stronger motivation for Magmatron than just the memory of Unicon himself even if it makes no damned sense.

Of course, if I were watching this at the time, I think I'd be happy just to have him back. Right now we're at a time where G1 is just starting to rest it's iron-tight grip on the franchise. I have a giant Unicron right beside me. Back then there wasn't even one single Unicron toy. They cancelled BW Neo's and we all were robbed. So I'd probably yadda yadda it. "Rodimus blew up Unicron, he's a head floating around in space - yadda yadda yadda - and his energy wound up in planet Earth - enjoy your surprise reveal!"
As it turns out, all this was explained in the mid-2000s by, of all things, Kiss Players.

In its second year, Kiss Players featured a time travel storyline in which the main characters were met by a trio of animals who called themselves Sparkbots, and claimed that they were on a mission from someone called "Primus" to find energy fragments of something they called the "AllSpark", which had been scattered across time. The girls agreed to help them in their quest and the Sparkbots took them to different points in time in the JG1 timeline to recover the fragments.

In what I can only assume was a celebratory retrospective for the Transformers brand done in the style of an anniversary, each point in time was a notable event featuring the many different Autobot and Maximal leaders from all across the ages: G1 Optimus, Rodimus, Fort Max, Super Ginrai, Star Saber, Dai Atlas, Star Convoy/Super Convoy/Action Master Optimus/G2 Laser Optimus, Optimus Primal (pre-Transmetal, Transmetal, Optimal, and Technorganic bodies), Lio Convoy, Big Convoy, and finally Fire Convoy.

But, as the last few AllSpark fragments were gathered (and, as I type this, I realize how similar this sounds to Animated season 2, yet this was early 2007, before Animated was even released), a mysterious giant golden hand grabbed and stole away these last few fragments, in an attempt to stop the girls and the Sparkbots. They gave chase to pursue this hand and get back the stolen fragments, but they collided with a barrier in space-time that ended up sending each girl to a different point in time within an alternate universe, that of the Unicron Trilogy.

One girl ended up in Armada (or "Legends of the Microns" as its known in Japan), one in Energon ("Superlink" in Japan), and the third in Cybertron ("Galaxy Force"). Each of them then got scooped up and taken away by the same golden hand. The ominous golden hand that had been try to stop the Sparkbots' mission to reunite the AllSpark fragments was then revealed to the girls to be none other than Primus, the real Primus, who revealed himself to be the true identity of both Vector Sigma and the "Oracle" who was once Primacron's assistant (from the G1 season 3 episode "Call of the Primitives").

Primus (appearing to the girls in the form of a golden redeco of Rodimus Prime) explained that the Sparkbots had lied to the girls all along. They aren't servants of Primus, but Unicron! And the energy fragments aren't of any "AllSpark", but of Unicron's energy that had been dispersed through time following the explosion of his body in 2005, and which will come to be known as "Angolmois Energy" in the future.

Their plans interfered with, the desperate Sparkbots fled through time with the fragments and ended up on Earth in the prehistoric past (though, after the Beast Wars have already ended). They quickly attempted to revive Unicron on Earth, but Primus and the girls arrived just as Unicron was first taking form. Primus and Unicron (who appeared in a form based on his unreleased G1 toy prototype) have a brief showdown on Earth, with Primus blasting the unprepared Unicron with the cannons of his trailer's base mode. Primus sealed Unicron's energy within the Earth, trapping it all once and for all (that is, until the time of BWII). He also created something to keep watch over Unicron's energy on Earth (but it's something from Car Robots so I won't spoil it for you). Primus then returns the girls back to their proper time in 2007, while he goes back to Cybertron and returns to his Vector Sigma form.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Actually, thinking of how the Unite Warriors cast rebuilt Cybertron, how could they possibly reconcile that with Beast Machines and it's organic core? Or maybe the Autobots found a nearby dead world and used that as a base to rebuild Cybertron? It was rather cored...maybe they found some small moon and plopped it in the center like a tootsie pop and build around it? It being blown up is such a problem. Any random Quintesson can bring back Ironhide or Ratchet, but rebuilding a planet is a **** task!
Well, recall that Vector Sigma miraculously survived the explosion, despite having not only been near the center of the planet but also where the bombs were originally placed. Maybe the organic core survived too. After all, a good chunk of the rest of the planet was still intact (albeit heavily damaged) following the explosion.

Image

If I had to guess, it's possible that Zodiac may have been involved in the restoration of Cybertron, since it has the power to create planets and other celestial bodies. This was probably also how Mars got rebuilt.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:08 pm

But, I mean, the organic core is at the core. The very centre of the planet. And you can literally see through the centre of the planet now. I guess I can see VS surviving. Galvatron survived, so why not?

I guess going into that is beyond the small bit of continuity that manga can give for a show not even released originally. I just have to assume that the Cybertrons used another planet to fill in the gap. There's just no other explanation I can see.

They did say they restored Mars, but I don't think we ever see how well they restored it. I sort of picture it like how Green Lantern Kyle Rayner rebuilt Pluto that one time. Just gather a bunch of rocks, put them together, and call it done. It's probably nothing like OG Mars. Just like Cybertron can't be anything like OG Cybertron.

For a race that has a constant energy crisis they sure do waste a lot of energy on rebuilding planets. GD. The Autobots never talk about how much they waste on these projects while the Decepticons are always plundering away. But if it wasn't for the cons they wouldn't be in this mess in the first place! It's also wierd that the cons are always the ones complaining about energy while the bots never seem to have a problem. Just rebuild Cybertron. Sure. That energy crisis we spend the first two seasons talking about? Never mind that!

Kiss Players. The forgotten continuity. Down the memory hole! Actually I have the Sparkbots in my closet at my parent's house. Nice to know they dedicated an entire story to fill in that huge plot hole. I remember reading a bit about that, but JG1 gets really really snarled.
Gauntlet101010
Guardian Of Seibertron
Posts: 5383
News Credits: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:13 pm

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Apr 27, 2024 12:11 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
Gauntlet101010 wrote:But, I mean, the organic core is at the core. The very centre of the planet. And you can literally see through the centre of the planet now. I guess I can see VS surviving. Galvatron survived, so why not?

I guess going into that is beyond the small bit of continuity that manga can give for a show not even released originally. I just have to assume that the Cybertrons used another planet to fill in the gap. There's just no other explanation I can see.
Now that you got me thinking about all this, with the retroactive context of the later retcons made by the likes of Kiss Players, Legends, Unite Warriors, and Generations Selects, maybe Primus had a hand in the planet's repair, since he is Vector Sigma in this continuity.

If Zodiac was involved, it could have been used in tandem with Primus's power to rebuild the planet to the way it was before, since Primus had originally dumped his life essence into the core of the original organic planet that would later become Cybertron, after the Quintessons came along, terraformed it into a metallic world, and imprisoned Primus within Vector Sigma. So that organic core in Beast Machines would, in Japan, have a sorta connection to Primus, making its organic goop a kind of substance related to his energy.

And Zodiac is pretty miraculous stuff. What the single episode of Zone didn't really show is that Zodiac can actually create entire planets, and it's supposedly the very substance that created the universe itself back when the Big Bang happened. If it can do all that, repairing one planet shouldn't be much trouble for it.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:They did say they restored Mars, but I don't think we ever see how well they restored it. I sort of picture it like how Green Lantern Kyle Rayner rebuilt Pluto that one time. Just gather a bunch of rocks, put them together, and call it done. It's probably nothing like OG Mars. Just like Cybertron can't be anything like OG Cybertron.
We get a look at it in an episode of BWII, and it seemed pretty normal. Well, save for the fact that there were ruins of a long-gone civilization on it (something the Generations Selects manga also filled in, saying that after humanity abandoned Earth, they relocated to Mars for a while before venturing out further into the space).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Kiss Players. The forgotten continuity. Down the memory hole! Actually I have the Sparkbots in my closet at my parent's house. Nice to know they dedicated an entire story to fill in that huge plot hole. I remember reading a bit about that, but JG1 gets really really snarled.
Yeah, Kiss Players was actually finally translated in full for the first time back in 2022 by Karyuudo Fansubs, the same group who has fansubbed Car Robots, Legends of the Microns, BWII, Neo, the Beast Wars movies, Zone, and Scramble City. Both the radio drama and all the related manga, including the even-more-forgotten manga series Teletraan 15 Go! Go!, which was released concurrently to Kiss Players and made by the same creator.

Teletraan 15 Go! Go! was a manga series meant to advertise several G1 reissue toys Takara released during the mid-2000s. But that series's biggest relevance to Kiss Players were some tie-in stories that connected to Kiss Players's first-year storyline (which was about a conspiracy where the EDC turned corrupt, banished all Transformers from Earth, and hunted down any remaining Autobots on the planet, labeling them as war criminals), and some chapters that were visual adaptations of Kiss Players's second-year radio episodes (which covered the big time-travel story). The latter is especially important because, for some completely unknown reason, that whole second-year storyline of radio episodes were never released on CD or any other commercial medium. Unless anyone in Japan recorded them off their radio at the time of their original broadcast, that whole second year of radio episodes are now lost media.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Sat Apr 27, 2024 8:10 am

Zodiac energy seem pretty handy. A little too handy -_-

But, I guess if it's shown to create planets in the canon story then I can see why it's your go-to for an explanation.

Why would the organic core need to be connected to Primus? Why couldn't it be as shown? A weird almost-magical goop that sucks away organic matter and causes plats to grow? And Technogranic plants?

I guess Primus could have helped. Vector Sigma's there and if that's supposed to be Primus, then why not? But it couldn't restore the organic core. They're two diametrically opposing forces - one creating organic life, the other inorganic (at least according to Beast Machines).

I guess my problem now is that we're veering away too much from the source. We're not shown Zodiac energy restoring Cybertron, even if it could in theory. We're just shown some UW guys shifting through the rubble and are left to extrapolate. Ditto Mars. Zodiac wasn't a thing in Headmasters, so I don't like to assume it was used unless it was said to have in some other material. They could have also space-bridged some very similar mars-like world the same way Megatron once space-bridged in Cybertron next to Earth. Then terraformed it somewhat.

Another problem with using Zodiac for Mars of Cybertron is that it comes into play early. Let's say Fort Max decides to use it. Why does he put it back? Why not use it against Black Zarak and Devil Z before they emerge as a full threat? Why not use it to utterly annihilate Dethsauru's fortress? Or use it to power Autobot society forever? And why does he put it back into an unguarded cave? Why not somewhere more secure where energy-hungry Decepticons won't look for it?

I know it's kind of an easy answer to restore planets on the Autobot side, but it also opens up a can of worms.

It's too bad those Kiss Players dramas were utterly lost. That does seem surprising. I guess even Transformers drops the ball sometimes.
Gauntlet101010
Guardian Of Seibertron
Posts: 5383
News Credits: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:13 pm

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Apr 27, 2024 11:28 pm

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
This is making me wanna go back a review the rest of Zone to see what all was said about the nature of Zodiac, as that may help provide some better answers to this. I'll need to find time to look over the Zone story pages, which were the main fiction for that series.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:It's too bad those Kiss Players dramas were utterly lost. That does seem surprising. I guess even Transformers drops the ball sometimes.
Thankfully, all of the first-year radio episodes were released on CD (and have been fansubbed, too). It's just those second-year ones that never got put on CD, and whose storyline can now only be experienced through the manga adaptation (which is nice in that it provides visual illustrations where the radio eps were audio-only, but they manga adaptation is still a much more condensed version of the story skimming over some of the details). Japanese summaries of the the missing radio eps do also exist online, but a summary isn't the same as a first-hand experience.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Wed May 01, 2024 12:05 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
WARNING: This post turned out to be much longer than I had intended it to be. Apologies in advance for its ungodly length.

Okay, I've gone back and looked over the entirety of the vintage Zone fiction, and I now completely rescind my suggestion about Zodiac having been involved in the restoration of Cybertron and Mars (unless some new JG1 fiction comes along and says otherwise, but I digress).

When searching through the story pages, the single manga chapter, and the single OVA episode that was adapted from said manga (btw, if anyone wants either the story pages or manga chapter in English, PM me), I found that the majority of information about the nature of Zodiac was, indeed, given in the episode. I checked not only the Karyuudo Fansubs version but also another fansub from several years ago (which I presume took its subtitles from the old Zone/Scramble City DVD bootleg that was in unofficial circulation back in the 2000s). These are what was said about Zodiac in the episode:

Karyuudo Fansubs version
Dai Atlas: "The Destrons' target is the super mineral that's laying dormant within the Earth. The Zodiac."
Holi: "Zodiac?"
Sonic Bomber: "The mysterious energy that has the power to create a universe."
Dai Atlas: "If they use our Cybertron energy, the Energon Z, together with it, then they could create super energy as powerful as a star."

Dai Atlas: "Essence of the Earth, grant us the power that created the universe!"

Kain: "What is the Zodiac really?"
Dai Atlas: "This Zodiac is the power that originally created the Earth and the galaxy."


Older fansub version (typos included)
Dai Atlas: "The Destrons goal on Earth is to get the component Zodiak."
Holi: "Zodiak?"
Sonic Bomber: "The mysterious energy that has the power to create a universe."
Dai Atlas: "If they fuse it with Cybertron's super energy Energon Z then they can create a new planet."

Dai Atlas: "Soul of the Earth, grant us the power that created the Universe."

Kain: "What is exactly the Zodiak?"
Dai Atlas: "Originally it's the power that created the Earth and the Universe."


And then in the final story page for Zone, the Powered Masters used the power of the Zodiac to transform a desolate planet of darkness into a lush paradise teeming with life.

Image

One of the two main reasons I had supposed Zodiac could have been involved in the restoration of Cybertron and Mars was because of all those statements given above, as well as its use on that planet. If Zodiac could make stars, planets, or even an entire universe, it seemed like it would be no sweat for it have helped in repairing both Cybertron and Mars.

But the other reason I supposed it was because I knew that there was more than one piece of Zodiac out there in the universe, not just the one piece hidden within the Earth. I had figured that they could have used a piece from somewhere else, since the one seen in Zone seemed like it had only been first removed from within the planet in that episode for the first time ever. Dai Atlas even refers to it as "Chikyū no tamashī" (地球の魂 "Soul/spirit/essence of the Earth"), which to me sounded like the Earth's fragment of Zodiac was an important component of the planet that was vital to its survival. If so, then both Cybertron and Mars would each require a different piece of Zodiac needed for their revivals, ones not that weren't already being used to support an inhabited planet.

But what killed my idea of Zodiac being used to restore Cybertron and Mars was when I dug deeper, beyond just the Zone fiction. I looked into the story pages of the sequel to Zone, The Battlestars, and found something I had overlooked. Zodiac was used to resurrect Convoy as Star Convoy in that series. At first, I remembered that there was some kind of quest involved in the revitalization of Convoy, but had forgotten what this quest was for, specifically. I misremembered it being a quest for more Zodiac, when it was actually a quest to find Convoy's body after it had been stolen by the series new big bad villain, Dark Nova. As it turns out, the piece of Zodiac that was used to revive Convoy was apparently the very same piece of Zodiac from Earth in Zone. There's even a pic of Dai Atlas literally handing it over to the new Autobot Sky Garry.

So then, if this is all the same single piece of Zodiac between Zone and The Battlestars, then it couldn't have been used to fix Cybertron or Mars if it was only first found later in Zone. It also couldn't have been a different piece that was used because everyone acts like the one on Zone and The Battlestars is the only piece that exists. But wait, I did say before that there are more pieces out there. Well, I originally thought that that information had come from Zone and/or The Battlestars, but it turns out that it actually came even later, from the Legends manga. Near the very end of it, even, in 2019!

Image

Somehow, it never clicked with me beforehand that neither Zone nor The Battlestars had ever actually said that there was more than one piece of Zodiac in the universe, so when a bunch of them showed up at the end of Legends, it just seemed normal to me. Maybe that "soul of the Earth" bit from the Zone OVA made me think that every planet/star/celestial body had its own piece of Zodiac, when it wasn't until Legends that more than one piece actually ever showed up at once. Go figure.

But even in Legends, before the chapter that first showed a whole bunch of Zodiac fragments (pictured above), the single piece of Zodiac seen throughout its earlier chapters is likewise treated as the same single piece from Zone and The Battlestars. And the later-made Unite Warriors manga that was set one year after Masterforce in 2021 even ended with the strong implication that none of the Transformers on Cybertron had even heard of Zodiac yet, further making it impossible for Zodiac to have repaired either Cybertron or Mars during 2011-2020.

<<<<Reads right-to-left<<<<
Image

So with all that said, if Zodiac is now no longer on the table for how Cybertron got fixed, I'm going back to your suggestion of their having used some other planet to fix it, and an idea has popped into my head.

Recall that Athenia was the Autobots' main non-Earth headquarters during The Headmasters, especially after Cybertron got blown up. I looked around and, within the greater JG1 cartoon continuity, Athenia is only ever seen or mentioned two more times after The Headmasters. The first time is one I'll skip for a sec, while the second instance was through a flashback in a Legends manga chapter. Said flashback could have happened shortly after or even during The Headmasters, as it's just an interrogation scene (shown in the top half of the page below):

<<<<Reads right-to-left<<<<
Image

As for the first instance, it was mentioned in a printed text story released in Japan prior to Masterforce as a bridge between it and The Headmasters. Titled "Master File No. 1", this summary of events is set in the early episodes of Masterforce, right around the time of the debut of the Headmaster Juniors' transtectors. While it mentions that the Autobots were still headquartered on Athenia at that point, this was obviously written with early ideas for Masterforce in mind, as it also mentions the Trainbots keeping tabs on Earth, the Autobot Pretenders, and the growing threat of Devil Z. Yet, the Trainbots were never seen in Masterforce outside of a brief cameo in the theme song's first opening sequence.

Image

Clearly there were supposed to be more ties between The Headmasters and Masterforce in the earlier stages of the latter's development, but those didn't pan out in the final version. Thus, if we wanted to imagine that Athenia was the planet that was used to restore Cybertron, we could say that Master File No. 1 is still technically correct (the best kind of correct) about the Autobots being based on Athenia during that time, as Athenia would have been integrated into Cybertron, making the two planets become one and the same. ;)^

The main reason I wasn't originally keen on this idea was because of how Beast Machines seemed to adamantly certain that the Cybertron in that show was the very same planet that it had always been since the time Cybertron was first created so many eons in the past. And the Japanese dub of it would have likely followed suit with that. But then I remembered how the G1 cartoon had already stated that Vector Sigma's chamber was at the core of Cybertron, which Beast Machines conflicted with by showing it to have an organic core instead. With JG1 placing both of those shows in the same continuity, Cybertron would have had Vector Sigma's chamber at its core, then get blown up and be rebuilt with a new core. Athenia possibly having been used to restore Cyberton would thus allow for the organic core in Beast Machines to have been Athenia's core.

Although, the organic core is still some weird orb of nigh-magical green-blue energy instead of a molten core that a normal planet like Athenia would have. This is where I feel Primus/Vector Sigma/Oracle would come into play, and that that green goopy energy would be related to him.

Recall that when I previously summarized the events of the second Kiss Players storyline from 2007, I mentioned that Primus revealed himself to be both Vector Sigma and the assistant of Primacron from "Call of the Primitives". This decision to link Vector Sigma and Primacron's assistant was likely done for three reasons.

  • First, in the Japanese dub of the G1 cartoon, both of those characters were voiced by the same actor, Toshio Ishii, whereas in the English version, VS was voiced by Corey Burton while Primacron's assistant was voiced by Gregg Berger.
  • Second, in the dialogue script for "Call of the Primitives", the disembodied voice of Primacron's assistant was referred to as "Oracle". By pure coincidence, this is the very same name as the evolved form of Vector Sigma from Beast Machines, which was kept in the Japanese dub.
  • And third, an as-yet unexplained sequence in "Call of the Primitives" showed what very much looked to be the Matrix of Leadership rising out of the destroyed body of Primacron's assistant, after Unicron rebels against Primacron and attacks his lab. Japan took this sequence literally and interpreted it as the origin of the Matrix in the cartoon, which was otherwise given no origin.
Seemingly wanting to link together the Vector Sigma of the G1 cartoon that was stated to have both given life to the Transformers and preceded the existence of Cybertron, the Vector Sigma of Beast Wars Neo that was stated to be "the god of the Transformers", the evolved form of Vector Sigma from Beast Machines named "the Oracle", and the "Oracle" from the G1 cartoon who not only shared the same Japanese voice as Vector Sigma but also seemed to be originator of the Matrix, an elaborate backstory was crafted by the individuals at TakaraTomy who were responsible for organizing the mammoth JG1 timeline.

First mentioned in a timeline published with a Kiss Players/Teletraan 15 Go! Go! compilation book, this backstory began with the creation of Unicron by Primacron and his assistant, Oracle, who had life-giving abilities. When Unicron lashed out and destroyed Oracle's body, his essence within the Matrix escaped from Primacron and fled into space. He eventually found and arrived on the barren planet seen in "Call of the Primitives" and emptied his essence within the Matrix into this planet. He then used his life-giving essence to create a lush organic world filled with greenery and animal life.

But then, this peaceful paradise was discovered by the Quintessons, who used a mechanization ray (which would later come to be known as the Key to Vector Sigma) to terraform the planet into the metallic world of Cybertron. The Quints imprisoned the Oracle's essence within the Vector Sigma supercomputer and used the empty shell of the Matrix to control his power and create the Cybertronian race. This backstory was finally actually illustrated in full during the 2021 finale of the Generations Selects manga.

>>>>Reads left-to-right>>>>
Image
Image
Image

Further additions to this backstory have also been made to smooth out some of its rougher edges, such as the Legends manga that came packaged with the Blue Big Convoy toy explaining how Vector Sigma went from being the Oracle in Beast Machines back to being a totally different-looking Vector Sigma in Beast Wars Neo, but saying the Oracle had evolved further into another new form upon the technorganic reformatting of Cybertron:

<<<<Reads right-to-left<<<<
Image

And with the notion of the Matrix having been into the possession of the Quintessons after they conquered and terraformed the planet, this provided an opportunity for the Legends manga included with Grand Maximus's new toy to finally explore Devil Z's origin, revealing that he was created from evil energy built up within the Matrix when it was owned by the Quints; said evil energy was then dumped out of the Matrix and discarded to the far reaches of the universe once the Matrix had been reclaimed by the Autobots.

This energy, however, persisted in its existence and eventually evolved into a super-energy lifeform filled with hatred and a desire for vengeance for having been thrown away like trash. After stealing the transtectors that would later become Godmasters in Masterforce, this lifeform hid them within the Earth so that the transtectors could absorb the Earth's Zodiac and Angolmois Energies, evolving them into Godmaster transtectors. This lifeform also absorbed those same energies and further evolved itself, becoming Devil Z, and finally revealing what the "Z" in his name is short for: His real name is "Devil Zodiac".

<<<<Reads right-to-left<<<<
Image

And once Cybertron is rebuilt after The Headmasters, we see in the Unite Warriors manga that its Vector Sigma chamber now looks like the Oracle chamber from Beast Machines, and is no longer at the center of the planet, all in accordance to how things were in Beast Machines (the following is the only decent look at said chamber, but a lot of the dialogue boxes obscure much of it from view).

<<<<Reads right-to-left<<<<
Image

But notice I haven't mentioned the "Primus" part of all this, as I've only been referring to the "Vector Sigma", "Oracle", and "Primacron's assistant" identities of this composite character. Well, that originated from the aforementioned 2007 Kiss Players storyline with all the time travel, in which he appeared as a golden redeco of Rodimus Prime, and ends the story by returning to his Vector Sigma form.

Image Image

Why they decided to add the Primus wrinkle to this equation is a story for another day (as this post is already so ungodly long as it is), but recall that I said that he emptied his essence into the planet that would later become Cybertron back when he first escaped Primacron. In the Legends comic with Devil Z's origin (pictured above), this essence is shown to be at the core of the planet, as if to say that it's the same thing as the organic core from Beast Machines. And said organic core juice already had sone pretty magical properties in Beast Machines. Primus said he wanted to create organic life on that planet, and the whole technorganic reformatting at the end of Beast Machines was some grand divine prophecy orchestrated entirely by the will of the Oracle, who is now Primus in Japanese continuity, so it all ties together.

But of course, this original core of Primus's energy would have been converted into Vector Sigma's chamber as seen in the G1 cartoon when the Quints took over the planet, but which would have then become this magical energy core again by the time of Beast Machines, following the restoration of Cybertron after its destruction in The Headmasters. Whether it was Athenia or some other planet that was used to fix it, that organic core of weird turquoise-colored life-giving goop being related to the life-making Primus/Vector Sigma/Oracle of JG1 would help explain why it is the way it is and isn't an ordinary molten core like what you'd expect to find at the center of any normal organic planet.

Phew!
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed May 01, 2024 9:16 am

Wow. They really overcomplicated it, didn't they?

I feel like tying everything together kind of makes the universe just a bit smaller. Not everything should be tied to just one person or thing. It shrinks the universe.

So what happened to the Zodiac by the end of Neo? I feel like bringing such a powerful thing into the mythos was a mistake. It's way too extra. Even the Matrix can be extra, but it's extra in a way Unicron can't match.

I think I can see why you want Cybertron to be remade whole using Zodiac now. Because, if it was roboticized by the Quints, then that keeps the spirit of the idea intact. But, if I look at the destruction ... I dunno. The actual center of the planet is obliterated and, while I can see Galvatron and Vector Sigma surviving, I have a much harder time buying magical goop doing the same.

I .... guess I can buy The Autobots using Athenia since they have a presence there. Although it feels very un-Autobotty to take a lush world to coat in metal. On having a molten core I'll just chuck real world science out the window. A world can have magical organic goop. Why not?

I guess I can't argue that Primus created the organic goo if it's right there in Kiss Players. Even though he's also Vector Sigma and the key to Vector Sigma is shown to negate organic life in Beast Machines. I don't think they thought this through. I think they only thought as far as "life god" to counter Unicron's "death god" status.

However, there's a way to simplify matters even more out of this mess. If Primus is the origin of the magic green goop and not the planet's origin's as a living world that means we don't necessarily need a world for the Autobots to build around. They could just build a fully artificial world, Death Star style, and Primus could supply the organic core later. It doesn't even have to be immediately after he meets the KP; it could have been a bit afterwards when the planet gets remade he could think to himself "well, I think I may start making some magic goop now that I have myself a shiny new planet". Or something. Although ... where'd the soil come from? Maybe from the chunk of Cybertron still left? Maybe the Autobots used some rocks as support structures?

Even though the Key to Vector Sigma nullifies organic life. I dunno, I guess he can do two things.
Gauntlet101010
Guardian Of Seibertron
Posts: 5383
News Credits: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:13 pm

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Wed May 01, 2024 11:18 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
Gauntlet101010 wrote:Wow. They really overcomplicated it, didn't they?
The irony being that they were trying to simplify and make things more consistent. :lol:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I feel like tying everything together kind of makes the universe just a bit smaller. Not everything should be tied to just one person or thing. It shrinks the universe.
I guess, but, even before this elaborate backstory was crafted and both Primacron's Oracle assistant and Primus were added to the mix, fans still thought that the Vector Sigma of the G1 cartoon, the Vector Sigma of Beast Wars Neo, and the evolved Vector Sigma Oracle from Beast Machines were all the same Vector Sigma in different time periods. ;)

Gauntlet101010 wrote:So what happened to the Zodiac by the end of Neo? I feel like bringing such a powerful thing into the mythos was a mistake. It's way too extra. Even the Matrix can be extra, but it's extra in a way Unicron can't match.
As it turns out, there actually was a conclusion given to the Zodiac pieces in the Generations Selects manga. After the conclusion of the Legends manga, the Selects manga revealed that the Powered Masters had gathered all of the Zodiac fragments together by the year 2050. When all of the fragments were brought together, they merged together into (to the utter surprise of the Powered Masters) a Silver Matrix. This Silver Matrix was then promptly stolen by someone who had predicted this merger phenomenon (as this someone had been able to see into the future). This person then took the Silver Matrix with them into a portal, completely disappearing from this universe into another. So the Zodiac fragments were gone and taken away, no longer in this universe.

The reason I'm not speaking the identity of this person who took the Silver Matrix or for what purpose it was taken is because revealing either would just make your head spin and require more explanation, so I'm just gonna say "someone" took it away and leave it at that (for now).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I think I can see why you want Cybertron to be remade whole using Zodiac now. Because, if it was roboticized by the Quints, then that keeps the spirit of the idea intact. But, if I look at the destruction ... I dunno. The actual center of the planet is obliterated and, while I can see Galvatron and Vector Sigma surviving, I have a much harder time buying magical goop doing the same.
Well, like I said, I've now walked back on the idea of Zodiac fixing the planet because it was repaired at a time before the Transformers on Cybertron first learn about the existence of Zodiac.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I .... guess I can buy The Autobots using Athenia since they have a presence there. Although it feels very un-Autobotty to take a lush world to coat in metal.
Maybe, but didn't look like there were any other inhabitants on Athenia besides the Autobots themselves by the time of The Headmasters. So they wouldn't be upending any existing civilization were that they case.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I guess I can't argue that Primus created the organic goo if it's right there in Kiss Players.
Legends.

Particularly this shot in the far left panel of the second row, right below the top-left panel:

Image

There's a glowing orb of energy at the center of the planet in that panel.

Although, I suppose one could argue that it's abstract enough to not be taken literally.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Even though he's also Vector Sigma and the key to Vector Sigma is shown to negate organic life in Beast Machines.
The Key could turn things metal in the G1 cartoon as well.

But with these later retcons, we now find out that both the Key and the globe-like outer casing of Vector Sigma were Quintesson creations, meaning they're the ones responsible for the creation of robotic life (which matches up with their having manufactured the first Cybertronian robots).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I don't think they thought this through. I think they only thought as far as "life god" to counter Unicron's "death god" status.
Yeah, the original creators of all these different cartoons were definitely doing their own things at the time (heck, the creators of Beast Machines even openly admitted that they weren't allowed to watch Beast Wars, the very show that they were making a direct sequel to). All of this organizing of the different pieces and smoothing things out had to be done retroactively by the various writers employed by TakaraTomy from the 2000s onward. Most notably, Hirofumi Ichikawa, Naoto Tsushima, Yuki Ohshima, Andrew Hall, and Hayato Sakamoto. Those five have done the most legwork.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:However, there's a way to simplify matters even more out of this mess. If Primus is the origin of the magic green goop and not the planet's origin's as a living world that means we don't necessarily need a world for the Autobots to build around. They could just build a fully artificial world, Death Star style, and Primus could supply the organic core later. It doesn't even have to be immediately after he meets the KP; it could have been a bit afterwards when the planet gets remade he could think to himself "well, I think I may start making some magic goop now that I have myself a shiny new planet". Or something. Although ... where'd the soil come from? Maybe from the chunk of Cybertron still left? Maybe the Autobots used some rocks as support structures?
Yeah, the soil inside Beast Machines Cybertron is one of the reasons I gave another look to your suggestion of their having integrated another planet into Cybertron. A world like Athenia could have provided that soil quite easily.

Hehe, and as I type this, it just hit me. IF Athenia had been the planet they used, the supreme irony of that would be that the various layers of underground ruins from ancient civilizations seen in Beast Machines would now retroactively have been from ancient civilizations of Athenia instead, with the Maximals simply believing they were from ancient Cybertronian civilizations and never actually knowing the truth. And one of those layers of ruins that the Maximals briefly used as their base in Season 1 (and was later used by Tankor as his base) was of an ancient Greek-style amphitheater, like those from ancient Athens, which Athenia was named after. :lol:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Even though the Key to Vector Sigma nullifies organic life. I dunno, I guess he can do two things.
Like I said, we now know that that Key was Quintessian in origin. ;)


Although, I just remembered one more thing. No matter how Cybertron was repaired, while Vector Sigma/Primus could have helped, I doubt he could have done the majority work. Unite Warriors revealed to us that when Cybertron was destroyed in The Headmasters, while Vector Sigma did survive, he was still damaged as a result, and wasn't fully restored from his weakened state until 2021, ten years later. So I can't see him having contributed a significant amount to the planet's restoration process during 2011-2020. Making a new organic core? Sure. But not much else bigger than that.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Thu May 02, 2024 6:31 am

It's fine if Vector Sigma didn't do much to build a new Cybertron. TBH, I hate "magicing" a technological planet or species in the TF lore. I know it happens all the time here, but still. If the Cybertrons (and, maybe, some right-minded Destrons), have to use some good old-fashioned elbow grease to rebuild their world ... good. All the better says I!

I don't suppose they ever explained what would power this new Cybertron? Given that was such a plot point in Seasons 1-2. Maybe that new element Galvy and Roddy were so jazzed about in Headmasters? As far as I'm aware the only reason the Destrons need energy is to power some specific thing and not Cybertron itself anymore. Although they only describe it as a super hard metal (I dunno why Adamantium would require the destruction of your home planet, guys, seems like an overreaction).

I guess, but, even before this elaborate backstory was crafted and both Primacron's Oracle assistant and Primus were added to the mix, fans still thought that the Vector Sigma of the G1 cartoon, the Vector Sigma of Beast Wars Neo, and the evolved Vector Sigma Oracle from Beast Machines were all the same Vector Sigma in different time periods. ;)

I mean Devil Z being Devil Zodiac and tying him directly to the Matrix. I think it would have been stronger if he hadn't been tied to an already complicated set of mythology. He could have easily stayed a very powerful energy being.

The irony being that they were trying to simplify and make things more consistent. :lol:

I think a big problem is the format and the exact narrative. It's a story told in these dense toy pack-in comics that reference so MANY other things. The cartoons alone span decades. And then they (looks at the wiki) bring in alternate realities into the mix ... ? Was that truly necessary to resolve the Primus / Quintesson stuff? They probably also want to tell an interesting story involving guys like Optimus Primal and other desperate characters, but now there's an entire previous universe and a bunch of alternate realities ... just to give a backstory to Vector Sigma? Ooof. I saw that it was all machinations by Lucky Draw Primus (that he stole the Silver Matrix / Zodiac). I guess if Primus and Unicron are Yin and Yang Unicron got all the sanity in the balance, lol.

I remember finding the translations of those difficult to read. It was good enough for the gag comic stuff, but for the mythology stuff it got really dense, even if I had a passing familiarity with some of the characters involved. And now, with a deeper understanding of the characters, some of the choices seem even weirder! I kind of understand the desire to iron out these story concepts and ideas, but the format just doesn't cut it for me. And I wonder if it actually made it truly more comprehensible.

Was there a comprehensive site collecting translated versions of the Legends comics?
Gauntlet101010
Guardian Of Seibertron
Posts: 5383
News Credits: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:13 pm

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Thu May 02, 2024 8:20 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
Gauntlet101010 wrote:I don't suppose they ever explained what would power this new Cybertron? Given that was such a plot point in Seasons 1-2.
Energon, I guess? The Autobots didn't seem very lacking in power generation resources what with their having not one but two massive city-sized headquarters by the time of The Headmasters, one on Earth and one on Athenia.

Likewise, the Decepticons had apparently gotten Chaar looking really spruced up even earlier, too, by midway through G1 Season 3:

Image

Though, Nucleon would be sought out years later to help with the energy crisis that would come in the early 2030s.

Solitarium is also a possibility, since it was first discovered in 2004 during RobotMasters, and some of it was apparently still in use to some degree in the 2020s-2030s (it's only really popped up in later fiction on occasion, whenever the writer remembers that it exists).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Maybe that new element Galvy and Roddy were so jazzed about in Headmasters? As far as I'm aware the only reason the Destrons need energy is to power some specific thing and not Cybertron itself anymore. Although they only describe it as a super hard metal (I dunno why Adamantium would require the destruction of your home planet, guys, seems like an overreaction).
Don't forget, that was all Scorponok's call, alone. Both Rodimus and Galvatron wanted to save Cybertron, but Scorponok made the call to take it out of the equation so he could harvest plasma energy from the planet's explosion, all because he was an outside party who had no ties to or sentimental affection for Cybertron. To him, it was just another rock in space.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I think a big problem is the format and the exact narrative. It's a story told in these dense toy pack-in comics that reference so MANY other things.
While true about the Legends manga, both the Unite Warriors and Generations Selects manga were all released exclusively online in PDFs. Same with many chapters of Legends being online releases.

And to think Legends actually started out as simple black-and-white sitcom-style gag comics about chibi versions of the Beast Wars cast working office jobs. :P

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And then they (looks at the wiki) bring in alternate realities into the mix ... ? Was that truly necessary to resolve the Primus / Quintesson stuff? They probably also want to tell an interesting story involving guys like Optimus Primal and other desperate characters, but now there's an entire previous universe and a bunch of alternate realities ... just to give a backstory to Vector Sigma? Ooof. I saw that it was all machinations by Lucky Draw Primus (that he stole the Silver Matrix / Zodiac). I guess if Primus and Unicron are Yin and Yang Unicron got all the sanity in the balance, lol.
Heh, yeah. It is... a lot.

I guess they wanted to pay homage to the Marvel comics backstory for Unicron that said he originated from a previous universe that existed before the present-day one, only giving Primus that past universe backstory instead since Cartoon Unicron was birthed in the present universe by Primacron.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Was there a comprehensive site collecting translated versions of the Legends comics?
Indeed there is. The wiki has its own in-house archive on MEGA for all kinds of Japanese TF printed media. Though, Legends has yet to be translated in full, with only a modest handful of chapters having actually been completed (and some by a guy whose translation choices have been... a bit questionable). Like you said, it's all rather dense (and the many skeevy elements in several chapters sure don't help).
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Thu May 02, 2024 8:26 am

Just finished episode 9 of Car Robots. So here's some initial thoughts.

- We're back to too many good guys! Between the Autobot Bros, FC, Rail Racer, and the Spychangers the Decepticons just don't really stand a chance. I think the difference compared to this VS G1 is that the cons were shown to be a little more beefed up compared to the Autobots. Even the minibots don't stack up in terms of raw power, I think. But right now I think Ai could just "Emergency!" all the Autobots and beat up the Decepticons if it came down to it. I don't feel they pose a real threat.

- So far I do like Gigatron and the multiple personalities his modes have. He's Animated Blitzwing before Animated Blitzwing! He has more energy than Magmatron or Galvatron. He's participated a bit more too and I hope he gets more involved. The Decepticon leaders in the Japanese shows have too few guys to sit on their laurels.

- Gel Shark hasn't really wowed me. I guess the dub is what made him shine?

- I really want to like Sideburn since he's basically the new version of my fav Hot Rod (in terms of looks anyway). But I haaaaaaaaaaaate the simp archetype. Look, it's funny that he likes normal sports cars. The first few times anyway. But I have seen this joke so many times. And so far he brings very little else to the table. Brock brought sage advice and a level head. Sanji bring the joy of cooking and a funny rivalry with Zoro. But this simp thing is all Sideburn has. I hope he gets to work with because I like his look the most out of the Autobots. At least so far.

The show is delightfully out of date. That flip phone the kid uses to call FC. Truly the peak of tech. Overall it really has that 2000-era anime vibe. The style, the tech, the music. Reminds me a lot of Megaman Battle Network.

I can appreciate the show well enough. It has it's moments. But, like the previous shows, the audience it aims for skews too young so it's hard for me to get too into it.
Gauntlet101010
Guardian Of Seibertron
Posts: 5383
News Credits: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:13 pm

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Thu May 02, 2024 8:37 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
Gauntlet101010 wrote:- So far I do like Gigatron and the multiple personalities his modes have. He's Animated Blitzwing before Animated Blitzwing!
I'm just gonna nip this one in the bud, right here, since it's been spread around through the grapevine for decades. His bat mode and dragon mode have their own unique way of speaking, but only those two forms. It's not something that applies for every one of his modes like some have mistakenly claimed over the years. It's less actual "multiple personalities" and more like he just speaks differently in his two beast modes.

Notably, his bat mode voice speaks like how older people used to speak during Japan's Edo period, ending most of its dialogue with "deansu" (であんす). While his dragon mode is mostly a venue for him to release the temper he normally keeps in check when in robot and other modes.

Amusingly, the English version seemed to combine both his bat and dragon voices together to give him a goofier Lord Zedd-esque voice instead of the calmer, Animated Megatron-esque voice he had in the original.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Thu May 02, 2024 4:09 pm

Fair enough, fair enough. I still like the idea, though.

TBH, I kinda like the designs for all three Japanese Predacon leaders. Maybe I should get Magmatron. With RID Omega Prime coming out chances are we'll get Gigatron too. And we've already gotten Lio Convoy. Maybe we actually will get a new BW Galvatron? Hm.
Gauntlet101010
Guardian Of Seibertron
Posts: 5383
News Credits: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:13 pm

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Thu May 02, 2024 4:58 pm

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
Gauntlet101010 wrote:Fair enough, fair enough. I still like the idea, though.
Indeed. Makes Animated Blitzwing all the more special. :D
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Fri May 03, 2024 8:28 pm

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
Oh! I just had a new thought!

Regardless of whether it was Athenia or some other planet that was used to restore Cybertron, the Autobots (or, if not them, somebody) must have done some serious terraforming to Athenia in the one-year time span between the planet's appearance in G1 Season 3 (which the Japanese dub relocated to taking place in 2010 instead of 2006) and its appearance in The Headmasters.

Here's what Athenia looked like in "Five Faces of Darkness, Part 1":

Image

And here's what that very same planet looked like in Episode 1 of The Headmasters:

Image

Disregarding all future retcons made by 21st-century Japanese TF fiction, maybe whatever method was used to so radically alter Athenia between the two shows might have been used to fix Cybertron. ;)
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Fri May 03, 2024 10:57 pm

Oh, wow! That's some poor continuity right there, lol! You can say the Autobots and Decepticons got really industrious post-Season 3, but it's hard to say that's the same planet at all!
Gauntlet101010
Guardian Of Seibertron
Posts: 5383
News Credits: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:13 pm

Re: Watching JG1 and beyond - stuff I just haven't bothered to watch and my thoughts.

Postby Sabrblade » Sat May 04, 2024 12:25 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
I also found something. When I was looking for a good pic of Athenia from The Headmasters, I stumbled upon something from the first episode that I'd either forgotten years ago or completely overlooked.

At the beginning of the first episode is a brief recap summarizing the events from the G1 cartoon. This recap was absent from every official English-subtitled DVD release of The Headmasters because it preceded the episode's title card, and all DVDs released in the UK, Australia, and the US were missing all pre-title card footage (as well as all post-credits footage) due to stingy old Toei having supplied incomplete video masters to each western DVD company. Only the original Japanese DVDs feature this missing footage, and fansubbing group TV-Nihon used those DVDs as a base for their subtitled release of The Headmasters, which was made before any official DVD releases in the western world. Thus, TV-Nihon's fansub actually has this recap subbed in English (from 1:20 to 3:12 in this video):



And in this recap, the following is stated:

A second Seibertron was also created on the peaceful planet Athenia.

I checked the Japanese dialogue to see if that subtitle text was correct. Listening to the audio to the best of my ability, I transcribed what I could hear, slowing down the video speed and using a combination of Wiktionary and Google Translate to get the right words transcribed. While the text isn't a 1:1 literal translation of the exact Japanese words spoken, it is accurate to what is being said.

Granted, at the time this episode was being written, the notion of Cybertron being blown up probably wasn't thought up yet. And certainly no one at the time knew what Beast Wars and Beast Machines would do with Cybertron over a decade later. So this notion of the Autobots wanting to establish a "second Cybertron" on Athenia was likely metaphorical more than anything. They likely just meant it was a new colony world for Cybertron.

But since we've been talking about how the actual Cybertron got rebuilt after its destruction later on, the notion of Athenia becoming a literal "second Cybertron" (instead of a metaphorical one) doesn't seem too farfetched now, lol. :lol:
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
User avatar
Sabrblade
God Of Transformers
Posts: 38849
News Credits: 438
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Speed: 7
Endurance: 8
Rank: 9
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 9

Previous

Return to Transformers Cartoons and Comics Forum

Transformers and More @ The Seibertron Store

Visit our store on eBay
These are affiliate links. We may earn commissions when you purchase items or services through these links.
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "TMNT #143 Cvr C 1:10 RI IDW Comics JUL231252 143C Turtles Ongoing (CA) Sanchez"
TMNT #143 Cvr C 1: ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "TMNT VS STREET FIGHTER #1 Cvr E RI 1:50 IDW Comics 2023 1E 1RI (CA) Beals"
TMNT VS STREET FIG ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "TMNT Saturday Morning Adv #7 Cvr A IDW Comics 2023 SEP231296 7A (CA) Lawrence"
TMNT Saturday Morn ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "TMNT #131 RI 1:10 IDW Comics 2022 MAY221561 131RI Ninja Turtles (CA) Mercado"
TMNT #131 RI 1:10 ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "TMNT Saturday Morning Adv #7 Cvr C IDW Comics 2023 SEP231298 7C (CA) Lankry"
TMNT Saturday Morn ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "GARGOYLES #3 Cvr K 1:25 Dynamite Comics DEC220629 3K (CA) Kambadais"
GARGOYLES #3 Cvr K ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "USAGI YOJIMBO #29 RI 1:10 IDW Comics 2022 MAY221572 29RI (W/A) Sakai (CA) Cullum"
USAGI YOJIMBO #29 ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "TMNT Saturday Morning Adv #3 Cvr A IDW Comics 2022 SEP221741 3A (CA) Lattie"
TMNT Saturday Morn ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "GARGOYLES #8 Cvr M 1:20 Dynamite Comics 2023 MAY230555 8M (CA) Leirix"
GARGOYLES #8 Cvr M ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "TMNT ARMAGEDDON GAME ALLIANCE #2 RI 1:1IDW Comics 2022 SEP221737 2RI Santolouco"
TMNT ARMAGEDDON GA ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "TMNT Last Ronin LOST YEARS #2 RI 1:100 IDW Comics DEC221451 2RI 2F (CA)Del Mundo"
TMNT Last Ronin LO ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "TMNT ARMAGEDDON GAME OPENING MOVES #2 Cvr A IDW Comics 2022 MAY221557 2A"
TMNT ARMAGEDDON GA ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "TMNT Last Ronin LOST YEARS #4 Cvr E RI 1:50 IDW Comics APR231599 4E (CA) Moore"
TMNT Last Ronin LO ...
Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "MMPR TMNT II #3 Cvr D Boom Studios Comics 2023 DEC220386 3D (CA) Rivera"
MMPR TMNT II #3 Cv ...
* Price and quantities subject to change. Shipping costs, taxes and other fees not included in cost shown. Refer to listing for current price and availability.
Find the items above and thousands more at the Seibertron Store on eBay
Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #348 - Uno
Twincast / Podcast #348:
"Uno"
MP3 · iTunes · RSS · View · Discuss · Ask
Posted: Saturday, April 20th, 2024

Featured Products on Amazon.com

These are affiliate links. We may earn commissions when you purchase items or services through these links.
Buy "Transformers Titans Return Grotusque and Scorponok Deluxe Action Figure Exclusive Set" on AMAZON
Buy "Transformers Authentics Starscream" on AMAZON
Buy "Transformers: Generations Power of The Primes Legends Class Roadtrap" on AMAZON
Buy "Transformers Masterpiece Movie Series Barricade MPM-5" on AMAZON
Buy "Transformers: Generations Power of The Primes Voyager Terrorcon Hun-Gurrr" on AMAZON
Buy "Transformers Generations Power of The Primes Deluxe Class Autobot Moonracer" on AMAZON
Buy "Transformers: Generations Power of The Primes Deluxe Class Dinobot Sludge" on AMAZON
Buy "Transformers: Generations Power of The Primes Quintus Prime Prime Master" on AMAZON
Buy "Transformers Generations Combiner Wars Voyager Class Silverbolt Figure" on AMAZON
Buy "Transformers: Generations Power of The Primes Alpha Trion Prime Master" on AMAZON
Buy "Transformers Generations Titans Return Titan Master Skytread" on AMAZON
Buy "Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior Class Optimus Prime Figure" on AMAZON