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Kronos wrote:You could ask the same of Voltron. Lions always win out over the vehicle Voltron.
Think of it like this...say that Transformers war on cybertron is like World War II. Could you re write that war and use other characters instead of Churchill, Hitler, Mussolini, and Roosevelt?
I realize that the war for cybertron goes on for millenia, but in every war, only very few warriors get remembered in history books. Who remembers Alexander the Great's second in command? What about who helped Hannibal conquer Rome?
Since Megatron is millions of years old, he is basically the greatest warrior on Cybertron. His nemesis is Optimus Prime, who's a bit younger.
Everyone loves a story about two great protagonists. You don't get more iconic than Prime/Megatron.
Leonardo wrote:I'm confused. You begin by criticising Hasbro for "rehashing the same concept over and over and over again" such as using Optimus and Megatron but then you say you want them to go back to continuing the G1 storyline or that to be successful like Spiderman they should stay true to their roots.
Wouldn't that be recycling again, though? They would just be revisiting different elements. Also, what's the difference between Japan introducing a new cast in Headmasters or Victory and the US introducing a new universe as in Armada? It's not like Masterforce, Victory or Zone consistently referenced the US G1 show or tied themselves to it that much.
All TF programmes are essentially the same, anyway. Shows like RID and Armada, Energon and Cybertron are essentially the same as G1. They just come off as worse because they're translations and they do suffer from certain constraints because of it. In some respects, Car Robots and Superlink are better than shows than G1.
I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue.
Leonardo wrote:Something else I don't understand is, are you talking specifically about the cartoons? I imagine that since you've posted this in the toys forum then you are including the toy lines as well, but why would they change the concept of the toy line?
Every TF toy line has had the same concept: robots that transform. They will always have Optimus Prime and Megatron because Hasbro need to hold on to those trademarks. However, with toy lines, it's up to the toy owner to imagine the world in which they live. One doesn't have to go by the tech specs or official backstories printed on the packaging. So what if they have a Leader Class Optimus Prime? He doesn't have to be the leader. Imagination allows one to use the toys in any way one sees fit. One doesn't even have to buy Optimus or Megatron.
My point is, anyone with an ounce of imagination can create their own storylines for the toys. All Hasbro has to do is produce the little blighters. Hasbro doesn't have to alter anything.
Leonardo wrote:
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that even if they had new characters, which every line has had in some way, the show would still be a rehash. Most franchises that demonstrate longevity are rehashed; that's how they last. All of the TF stories are the same story over and over again. Even Masterforce, Victory, etc., were rehashes, as far as I can see.
skywarp-2 wrote:Leonardo wrote:
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that even if they had new characters, which every line has had in some way, the show would still be a rehash. Most franchises that demonstrate longevity are rehashed; that's how they last. All of the TF stories are the same story over and over again. Even Masterforce, Victory, etc., were rehashes, as far as I can see.
Victory was Star Saber versus Deathzarus, and yeah similar in concpet to G-1, but here's the difference.. new show, new characters.. Unlike Armada, Energon, cybertron...those series were rehashes..instead of bumblebee you had hotshot..Unicron, Starscream vs megatron, Megtron versus Optimus, constructicons.. ect.. ect.. ect.. even teh crash landings were similar.. and granted in Energon Megatrons crashed ship wasn't underwater, but on the moon..its was still like G-1
Counterpunch wrote:Let's do a small rewrite of the Bible and chanage up the characters a bit...
Abraham, will be replaced with a character we'll call 'Frank'.
Moses, will be replaced with a very coridal robot named 'Humphry'
Jesus will be replaced with a guy named 'Oscar'.
and the 12 apostles will be replaced with 12 migrant workers from Mexico.
Now, nothing else will really change. Frank, or Abraham will still be the partriarch or the Israelites. Moses, or Humphry will still part the sea. Oscar will be the salvation of all mankind. And a migrant worker from Mexico named Jorge' will betray Oscar to the Romans for 30 gold pieces.
The answer is: IT DOESN'T MATTER. Not to take away from your idea, but here's the thing: The good guy leader will be heroic, self-sacrificing, and his power will come from his heart and friendships. The evil leader will be greedy, intelligent, and merciless. He will seek to dominate.
Optimus and Megatron are not characters. They are icons; they represent ideas. Dress them up however you want, hell make them a Monkey and a Barney-saur, it will end up the same.
Classic characters in stories are always about ideas. Even Star Wars has the classic story elements of an old man (Obi Wan) guiding a youg dude (Luke) to his great destiny. If someone redid Star Wars and made the old guy a 'hip-hoppity new wave teacher' it wouldn't work.
That's my answer and you're free to go about hurling chairs at me and such.
skywarp-2 wrote:Ok, I GOT YOUR ATTENTION, so maybe you all won't be too fond of what i'm about to bring up, but I'm gonna take my licks for this and dish it out quite proper..for all you older Guys out there in Blog land help me understand why?? And for you youngins please exercise some restraint as I tear into the Hasbro Transformers concept..
G-1 will probably never die, and as far as them referencing Megatron and Optimus Prime in various incarnations in the multiple series we have seen.. thats wonderful.. but I will say that there has been only one series which has ventured to go far away from the Optimus prime and Megatron battle..
Oddly enough, that would be G-1 if you count the 1986 movie, and the japanese renditions which continued after the series was cancelled here in the US.. one of my favorite Heroes would be Star Saber, and his nemisis Deathzaurus....No Megatron and Optimus Prime story there..
Those were the most original additions to the Transformers Mythos and I look to that as a great achievement, because here in the US, Hasbro has to continually come up with new and redone versions of Optimus Prime and Megatron.. never leaving that base idea and name behind...
Yet, It seems like they are rehashing the same concept over and over and over again.. G-1 actually kept going..and changed the main characters and most of the supporting cast, yes though, the concept remained Good versus Evil, the lead roles and ways of doing battle changed, the story lines involved more outerspace battles and less earth involvement, it started here in the US with Rodimus Prime and Galvatron.. and trickled into Japan where the series splintered off into different shows..
I think that G-1 was brilliant and didn't stifle the the genre by rehashing the same thing over and over again.. how many series of G-1 esque Rehashing will it take to get us adults to get our kids to buy their toys 20, 30, 100, 1 million?? When will the series stop being rehashed and come to a different conclusion, different villains, different leaders, different motives..it just seems like the various Gundam series.. the series is popular and airs on tv in Japan, but what after that? A new series, new Gundams, new villains.. but same story line big red white blue robot with a main human pilot and his love story and personal issues versus zakus, Doms and variuos cool looking baddies..where is the individuality?
I just wish if they did do a new Transfoemrs series, why can't we change the leader names, why has there got to be a new Optimus and Megatron every series, and why does it have to be set here on earth..? why couldn't a side series be just as popular as the main series.. lets say for instance they did a side series set during the G-1 era, and occasionally you got cameos by the original autobots (peter Cullen Voices G-1 Prime) or decepticons(Frank Welker Voices G-1 Megatron), but the series main goal was to focus on those specific autobots in that series and their various missions.. now that would be a break from the big Optimus VS Megatron battles..
And not to mention cool new transformers whose designs and details on their own would be great as stand alone figures and not compliments to the big guns like Optimus Prime or Megatron..
I just think that with every series, they (Hasbro) hold on to what works,and it will eventually burn the series out.. because its the same thing every what like 3 to 4 years.. new bot designs, each time getting more and more outlandish and brightly rainbow colored.. and no where as appealing as it was in the G-1 line, where you had realistic vehicles and color schemes.. granted Starscream was a little off, but they do have stunt jets like the Blue angels which have color schemes like that..so it wasn't too far off to believe that he could get away with being that color..
To me every time I see an new Optimus Prime emerge and a new series debut with Megatron and starscream at each others throat, it just makes me wonder... why rehash the G-1 dichotomy? why not do a new original Transformers series? new names, new direction.. I mean I know G-1 was the shizznick.. but do we have to keep seeing it copied and rehashed over and over and over again? Why can't it just become a new original verison of the transfomers? New villains, new motives, new heroes.. why can't a leader of the autobots have a consistant fight and battle over leadership instead of starscream and megatron??
I will say this,the executives that oversaw Beast Wars were atleast on track before these new Hasbro executives came in and just kept releasing crap based on G-1 over and over and over again..I guess the big theme at their transformers meetings the last 6 years or so was, "Let's stick with what works, if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Time will tell if the series will stay alive or not.. but rehashing the same idea over and over and over and over again.. redoing the series and reimagining the robots forms helps, but eventually something has to change..
My thoughts anyways...
Asderiphel wrote:I still think the why is as much 'money' as anything else. I agree that you can't have Masters of the Universe without a He-man, and you can't have a Die Hard without Bruce Willis, then it's gonna be pretty difficult to have a Transformers without Optimus and Megatron.
But what I really get out of skywarp's post is that there hasn't even been an attempt at innovation in a good long while, and it's starting to get old. And that's an investment decision from Hasbro. If they aren't paying a good team of writers and animators to work towards a new concept, then they are paying a couple of guys to rewrite old 'tried and true' episodes with old characters and new gimmicks. Shoehorn in G1 personalities with Mini-cons and just like magic, you've got a formulaic TF show. Throw in some whiny kids? Cinematic genius.
It's why, despite the fact that Michael Bay & Cartoon Network can ruin anything they touch, at least the movie and Heroes are attempts toward a new concept. For good or bad, there is change on the horizon. If this discussion is still going on January 1st, I think Hasbro has dropped the ball.
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