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Rodimus Prime wrote:Before CW, I was selectively picking up figures from T30, but CW made me want to pick up every figure in the line. Except Alpha Bravo.

Happier times before **** hit the fan.

Burn wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:Before CW, I was selectively picking up figures from T30, but CW made me want to pick up every figure in the line. Except Alpha Bravo.

Happier times before **** hit the fan.

Most certainly. But you know what, I don't regret doing it with Combiner Wars, because each and every figure had a place and a purpose. I just wish Hasbro would have stuck with the traditional characters, instead of bringing the others into it. Okay, maybe Victorion was acceptable. And I understand they did it to tie in with the comic, but having the other G1 characters be able to combine kinda overdid it. And my wallet cried out in pain. Yes, I know fully that no one forced me to buy them. Except my OCD when it comes to collecting, which ironically I didn't have until Combiner Wars arrived.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Burn wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:Before CW, I was selectively picking up figures from T30, but CW made me want to pick up every figure in the line. Except Alpha Bravo.

Happier times before **** hit the fan.

Most certainly. But you know what, I don't regret doing it with Combiner Wars, because each and every figure had a place and a purpose. I just wish Hasbro would have stuck with the traditional characters, instead of bringing the others into it. Okay, maybe Victorion was acceptable. And I understand they did it to tie in with the comic, but having the other G1 characters be able to combine kinda overdid it. And my wallet cried out in pain. Yes, I know fully that no one forced me to buy them. Except my OCD when it comes to collecting, which ironically I didn't have until Combiner Wars arrived.

I agree with almost everything you say.

The new characters didn't worry me too much, yeah my dislike of Alpha Bravo is well known (and the **** hitting the fan comment is in relation to why my sparring partner ended up leaving), but I like Rook, fantastic mold, Offroad was ... okay.

Victorion I could have lived without, I have her for the sake of having her, I'm not partial one way or another.

The Autobots were pointless, I never bought them. I still feel they missed an opportunity there to bring in Thunderclash and the Turbomasters. But I've made enough noise about them and the Predators.

Bringing the other traditional combiners into it properly would have required outright new molds, alas. Would you have really wanted them to try shoehorning cars and planes into being the Terrorcons and Seacons?

Rodimus Prime wrote:I never understood why Titans are redeco-proof. I mean, is my thinking faulty for assuming that a redeco would cost a lot less to produce? There's no new engineering involved, no new parts or methods of assembly required. Just make the same figure in different color.

I think it's the fact that with how bloody huge Titans are, the cost of actually making the toy is high enough just by itself (There may not be much in the way of further development costs, but the production itself still has a labor cost and a substantial materials cost) that HasTak want to have confidence there will be profit before committing to produce a figure. Especially since people's willingness to buy the same mold in different colors tends to diminish the more expensive the toy is. With Titans having the price tag they do...
And Takara did figure out a solution: Saying "We'll make this if enough people pre-order it to guarantee we make a profit".

And if I recall correctly, Grand didn't reach the pre order point to even come with a redcoed prime master shell. I think part of it might be hasbro thinking that the titan class reveal will be diminished if the next one is just a redeco. Start doing that, even with online exclusives and it's just like any other size class.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Bringing the other traditional combiners into it properly would have required outright new molds, alas. Would you have really wanted them to try shoehorning cars and planes into being the Terrorcons and Seacons?

So are you saying that the Terrorcons couldn't have come out during Combiner Wars? What changed between then and their release in PoTP? Was the time gap that crucial to their development and/or production? I mean, the design team had to know they needed/were going to make them. Same with the Seacons, but I'll give them more slack since they seem to have had a lot of changes. But I still think the technical know-how existed a few years ago to produce them. As for the Titan repaints (specifically G2 Devy, just to keep it relevant to this thread), I would love to be clued into the step-by-step process of Titan Devastator came to be, from concept to method of delivery to stores.

And Burn, I understood what you meant with the shit-fan comment, but I didn't want to elaborate, considering the person and the events. I was a mercilessly vocal critic of the concept of Alpha Bravo, and I think your sparring partner ended up taking it personally somewhat, which I regret. My opinion on AB remains the same. Also, I should have done what you did, and skipped the other G1 guys that weren't combiners originally, but I say that in hindsight with the knowledge of having Siege. I now have both lines collected almost completely, and the only way I try to justify it to myself is that CW represents the IDW versions, while Siege does the G1 figures.

It's more the cost of the molds I think ZeldaTheSwordsman is referring to. When you look at it there was a limited number of molds in CW, because of the budget the line had.

Rodimus Prime wrote:Also, I should have done what you did, and skipped the other G1 guys that weren't combiners originally, but I say that in hindsight with the knowledge of having Siege. I now have both lines collected almost completely, and the only way I try to justify it to myself is that CW represents the IDW versions, while Siege does the G1 figures.

It depends on how you want to be build your collection.

I have an extensive original G1 collection, but I also have, and I steal the term from Mkall, the Neo-G1 collection, which is basically a mish mosh of "modern" (CHUG+) figures.

The combining Autobots didn't fit into that.
Most of the Siege Autobots didn't fit into that.
Most of Earthwise figures won't fit into it because I have modern versions of most of the characters.

But a LOT of CW did fit into it because we got so many updates to characters that didn't have modern interpretations. Suffice to say, the rather large bookcase I had for the Neo-G1 collection is pretty much full. No idea where the Seacons and Scorponok are going to fit (and Trypticon simply doesn't fit at all!)

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Bringing the other traditional combiners into it properly would have required outright new molds, alas. Would you have really wanted them to try shoehorning cars and planes into being the Terrorcons and Seacons?

So are you saying that the Terrorcons couldn't have come out during Combiner Wars?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Not because of engineering limits, but because of our oh-so-beloved companion: budget limitations. Hasbro was obviously only willing to invest in so many new molds for Combiner Wars, and only so much retooling of each mold. Just compare the Combiner Wars Technobots to the Unite Warriors Technobots.

Rodimus Prime wrote:What changed between then and their release in PoTP? Was the time gap that crucial to their development and/or production? I mean, the design team had to know they needed/were going to make them.

Not the time gap itself so much, but the fact that PotP was a new line and thus had a new budget.

Rodimus Prime wrote:Same with the Seacons, but I'll give them more slack since they seem to have had a lot of changes. But I still think the technical know-how existed a few years ago to produce them.

I think the Seacons were on the docket for PotP and the new tooling for at least some of them (Snaptrap/Turtler and Skalor/Gulf at the absolute minimum) was even ready (albeit not as fancy as the SELECTS versions), but they fell victim to PotP getting cut down to one year - just like the retail versions of several Prime Masters (and the Decoy Armor that would have accompanied them).

ZeroWolf wrote:It's more the cost of the molds I think ZeldaTheSwordsman is referring to. When you look at it there was a limited number of molds in CW, because of the budget the line had.

Bingo. It's not that they lacked the ability to develop them, but that Hasbro wasn't willing to spend that much more money on it at that time.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Bringing the other traditional combiners into it properly would have required outright new molds, alas. Would you have really wanted them to try shoehorning cars and planes into being the Terrorcons and Seacons?

So are you saying that the Terrorcons couldn't have come out during Combiner Wars?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Not because of engineering limits, but because of our oh-so-beloved companion: budget limitations. Hasbro was obviously only willing to invest in so many new molds for Combiner Wars, and only so much retooling of each mold. Just compare the Combiner Wars Technobots to the Unite Warriors Technobots.

Alright, so I reiterate my earlier point: why were the spots in the waves and the dollars in the budget taken up by figures that had no business combining, such as Sky Lynx and his 4 limbs (who weren't even the same between CW and UW, just like the Technobots) and even Prime and his limbs, which consisted of some of the 84 guys. Why didn't we get the Terrorcons in CW instead of Sky Lynx and his limbs? Prime and his limbs I can kinda understand, since they're all major characters and they had a prominent comic story backing them up. But the others? They might have combined in the comic once, and it was forgettable. Whereas the Terrorcons are 1 of the original combiner teams. And then if they really wanted to force the extra team on us, they should have pushed them back into PoTP, taking the place of the Terrorcons whom we got anyway. And if Prime got to combine with some guys, would it have been that difficult to give a shout-out to Masquerade? I know Cliffjumper probably wouldn't have made the cut, but the other 3 had deluxe figures, if I remember correctly. Yeah, I liked the homage to Energon Prime's color scheme, but this was supposed to be a G1 theme.

And Burn, my main rules for building a collection are 1., no duplicate representations of characters (hence being forced to use CW for IDW and Siege for G1 in my headcanon) and 2., every figure must have a presence in a media, preferably the Marvel comic, since it's my favorite continuity.

We also know that the monster pretenders and/or the Dino force were possible victims of PotP being cut, given what we saw at one of the shows

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Bringing the other traditional combiners into it properly would have required outright new molds, alas. Would you have really wanted them to try shoehorning cars and planes into being the Terrorcons and Seacons?

So are you saying that the Terrorcons couldn't have come out during Combiner Wars?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Not because of engineering limits, but because of our oh-so-beloved companion: budget limitations. Hasbro was obviously only willing to invest in so many new molds for Combiner Wars, and only so much retooling of each mold. Just compare the Combiner Wars Technobots to the Unite Warriors Technobots.

Alright, so I reiterate my earlier point: why were the spots in the waves and the dollars in the budget taken up by figures that had no business combining, such as Sky Lynx and his 4 limbs (who weren't even the same between CW and UW, just like the Technobots) and even Prime and his limbs, which consisted of some of the 84 guys. Why didn't we get the Terrorcons in CW instead of Sky Lynx and his limbs?

I reiterate: There was a limit to how many molds were being made, and the Terrorcons would have required all-new molds. All the random Autobot limbs? Those share molds with the Stunticons and Combaticons (well, Prowl uses the Streetwise version of the Dead End mold, but still). But the Terrorcons are animals. You can't so easily retool/reshell a car or a plane into an animal (And you certainly can't do a headswap redeco and call it good)! They would have required entirely new molds, or retooling so extensive as to practically be new molds, which was more than Hasbro was spending the money on within that line. Sky Lynx was a new mold, true, but he was only one new mold; the Terrorcons would have required 4 or 5.
Combiner Wars seems to have been limited to one full alternate shell at most per mold, with minimal retooling beyond that (outside of Victorion), and some molds didn't even get that much (with the redecoes only getting new heads). Witness how minimal the retooling on Hasbro's Technobots is compared to Takara's.

Rodimus Prime wrote:Whereas the Terrorcons are 1 of the original combiner teams. And then if they really wanted to force the extra team on us, they should have pushed them back into PoTP, taking the place of the Terrorcons whom we got anyway.

Again, the extra limbs from CW were redecoes to milk existing molds. PotP had a fresh budget for making new molds with. And probably a bigger one, after the success of CW.

Rodimus Prime wrote:And if Prime got to combine with some guys, would it have been that difficult to give a shout-out to Masquerade? I know Cliffjumper probably wouldn't have made the cut, but the other 3 had deluxe figures, if I remember correctly. Yeah, I liked the homage to Energon Prime's color scheme, but this was supposed to be a G1 theme.

I have made the same complaint myself multiple times. Also, it was Windcharger, not Cliffjumper.

Okay I get it about the budget and new molds. But it still seems to me that Hasbro was sloppy in preparation if they didn't allow the budget for the Terrorcons. I mean, that's literally the only team we were missing from G1. Couldn't they have just included it from the start? Yes, I know the Seacons were there as well, but they came later and there were 6 of them, so they're a special case. Besides, Computron is Abominus's counterpart, and he got made. These 'cons get no respect, I tell ya...

As for PoTP having a bigger budget...what the hell did they spend it on? We got more from CW than PoTP, didn't we? Or did it go to TR instead, since that was the next line?

And yeah, Windcharger. They're both small red cars.

Going by the 2-heads per shell, 2 shells per main tooling standard Hasbro seemed to have employed during CW, most of the characters used fall into place quite nicely when originally planned:

Harrier
#1: Fireflight
#2: Slingshot

Formula 1
#1: Drag Strip
#2: Mirage

Helicopter
#1: Vortex
#2: Blades

Tank (possibly planned later)
#1: Brawl
No second head

F-Series
F-16/F-18
#1: Skydive
#2: Starscream

F-14
#1: Air Raid
#2: Thrust

Sports Car #1
Lamborghini
#1: Breakdown
#2: Sunstreaker

Lancia (possibly added on later like Trailbreaker was)
#1: Wheeljack
#2: Counterpunch

Sports Car #2
Ferrari
#1: Wildrider
#2: Dead End

Nissan Police
#1: Streetwise
#2: Prowl

4WD
Open-bed Truck
#1: Ruckus
#2: Ironhide

A1: Trailbreaker
A2: Hoist

ALS
#1: First Aid
#2: Ratchet

Army Carrier
APC
#1: Brawl
#2: Rook

Jeep
#1: Swindle
#2: Hound

For the limbs that makes 8 to 9 main toolings, 5 of which had 2 shells to choose from.

Semi-Truck
Type #1
#1: Motormaster
#2: Nemesis Prime

Type #2
#1: Optimus Prime
#2: Star Convoy

Jet
Concorde
#1: Silverbolt
#2: ???

Futuristic Jet
#1: Cyclonus
#2: ???

Long Truck
Fire Truck
#1: Hot Spot
#2: Inferno

Anti-aircraft
#1: Onslaught
#2: Armada Demolishor

Space Shuttle (again, possibly added later)
#1: Sky Lynx

... and 3 to 4 main toolings for the torsos.

Comparing that to Energon's combiners with a budget that allowed either 2 teams of 5 or 3 teams of 3, in other words 10 toolings max, one can assume the new-mold budget for CW was already pretty stretched. Added-on retools upon initial success weren't that much of a problem apparently, but the Terrorcons had too different of a build to be considered. For the record, PotP had 6 new-mold main toolings for limbs, and 3 main toolings for torsos.

JelZe, why do you have Wildrider listed ahead of Dead End? Why is Off Road called Ruckus? And where did the Armada Demolishor info come from?

Rodimus Prime wrote:Okay I get it about the budget and new molds. But it still seems to me that Hasbro was sloppy in preparation if they didn't allow the budget for the Terrorcons. I mean, that's literally the only team we were missing from G1. Couldn't they have just included it from the start? Yes, I know the Seacons were there as well, but they came later and there were 6 of them, so they're a special case. Besides, Computron is Abominus's counterpart, and he got made. These 'cons get no respect, I tell ya...

The G1 combiners we did get had a lot of mold-recycling between them. Computron only got made because he was still vehicles, and he got made badly. Nosecone was Brawl with an ittybitty drill slapped on, Scattershot didn't get a new head and chestplate for Computron...
The Terrorcons are animals rather than vehicles, which made them too different to easily fit into the stretched budget. Moldmating a car to a sorta-similar car is one thing. Moldmating a car to a fish monster with legs or a two-headed dragon? Is another matter entirely.

Rodimus Prime wrote:As for PoTP having a bigger budget...what the hell did they spend it on? We got more from CW than PoTP, didn't we? Or did it go to TR instead, since that was the next line?

PotP having a bigger budget was just idle speculation on my part.

Thanks JelZe! Your listing skills are second to none.

I think the initial idea would have been to do the original four scramble City Combiners in combiner wars then seeing what they could do after that with the molds available.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:JelZe, why do you have Wildrider listed ahead of Dead End?

Wildrider is listed ahead of Dead End because of their G1 vehicle modes. Wildrider is a Ferrari 308 GTB, Dead End is a Porsche 928, and the CW toy for both is styled after a Ferrari 458 Italia. Don't look too much into it tho as they were planned together.

Why is Off Road called Ruckus?

Offroad's robot mode is styled after, and was originally planned as, G1 Ruckus, to the point FunPub used that for Grabuge:

Transformers Subscription Service Grabuge (Ruckus) Gallery

I'm using planned names as much as possible; you'll note I don't use their current trademark-friendly names like "Quickslinger" or "Brake-Neck" (which may have been a factor in them being chosen to be replaced). Again, presonal preference.

And where did the Armada Demolishor info come from?

From an acquired test shot:

Onslaught with Armada Demolishor head on Captured Prey facebook.

Makes ya wonder why, doesn't it?

ZeroWolf wrote:Thanks JelZe! Your listing skills are second to none.

I think the initial idea would have been to do the original four scramble City Combiners in combiner wars then seeing what they could do after that with the molds available.

Aw, you're making me blush... I did leave out the Legends partners (shame on me), Scattershot (I don't know how to classify the add-on because that got additional add-ons added to it ), the Victorion and Technobot add-ons, the Liokaiser and FunPub head retools, PotP Dreadwind and Darkwing, and the TakaraTomy original stuff as I was aiming for planning stage, but the main tooling counts, TakaraTomy originals aside, still stand.

Bruticus and Defensor may have made Hasbro think about switching things up for the sake of variety, only because Groove's scale and Blast Off's lack of tooling partner put a wrench in the standard

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I'm not the one who started this thread . Combiners and Giant Transformers were always my favorite aspect of the original series. CW is what brought me back after selling off my original collection in 2007 (made up of everything from the Original series to Energon), and brought me back after a decade of absence.

Also, as many of you know I am a stickler for symmetry and completion, something cares little for. But with help, and a little headcanon I have been mostly successful.

Combining Elements of CW, UW, TAV, PotP, and various exclusives, I have plans for 30 all unique combiners (15 heroic and 15 evil), of which I own Most.

King Poseidon will be the 31st Combiner of my current collection, we'll have to wait and see how the balance is once again restored.

I am definitely glad I got the Unite Warrior sets. I know some have complained about the paint apps, but I've had no issues, and find that they are generally overall more stable than their Hasbro Counterparts. So my rule of them was always go TT when at all possible, and use the other lines to fill in the gaps (Such as Alpha Bravo, Smokescreen etc... characters not released in the Japanese market).

I've posted my complete list several times, but its at work currently. But my general rule is: Go TT official combination 1st, then Official Hasbro, then filling out the others that have no official configuration. Also Every 5 member team has a 6th (Legends Class) member (except for Predaking), as I figured it wasn't right that only some of them have one. Before Monday, If anyone is curious about who I've paired up with a particular torso, let me know and Ill respond before I can get to my full list.

Actually, it turns out that UW Motormaster seems to have Gold/Metallic Plastic Syndrome in his waist.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Actually, it turns out that UW Motormaster seems to have Gold/Metallic Plastic Syndrome in his waist.

Indeed he does... too bad.

And I'm very much interested in that list. I'm still trying to figure out who to pair with an eventual Inferno + Legends Groove and Alpha Bravo

For me , Legends Groove is with UW Defensor, so he is *Twice* as Groovy . If the aligned continuity taught me one thing, it's that it is ok to have more than one Transformer in the same universe with the same name. To have 2 on the same team would be extremely Unique, but I see them as sort of a father-and-son pairing working on the same rescue team.

As for Inferno, alas, he is the ONE Combiner I have that needs a last member to be created by either or for completion, as all other characters are taken, Currently it's Inferno as the torso. PotP Jazz and Ricochet as legs, PotP Wreck-Gar as an arm, and TAV Override as the chest piece.

Alpha Bravo is part of Optimus Maximus which will consist of: Battle Core Optimus (aka Ultra Magnus for my head canon), Alpha Bravo, Smokescreen, Red Swoop ( and currently Missing Member- G2 Ratchet) with CW Pipes as the chest plate

Did you get gold Starscream? Also what you going to do about the God Neptune repaint (assuming it happens of course). Did you also get the TF Club combiner?

ZeroWolf wrote:Did you get gold Starscream? Also what you going to do about the God Neptune repaint (assuming it happens of course). Did you also get the TF Club combiner?

Just Magnaboss for me, easiest to assemble with Silverbolt, Ironhide and Prowl as main retail. All one'd need is two new members

Yes My starscream is Potp Starscream, Blackwing, Dreadwind, Botcon 2016 Terrorsaur and Golden Lagoon Starscream (aka Sunstorm) and one of the Reflectors as a weapon.

I have all club and con exclusives except the 4 build-a figure Rachet variants and Flash Sentry.

Not going to worry about hypothetical toys until there is any actual evidence they are coming out.

I did the same with Magnaboss. Since I already had UW Grand Convoy Prime getting CW Silverbolt, prowl, and Ironhide, adding the stickers, and getting Tigatron and Unit 3 was fairly easy. Glad I jumped on them quickly as I see they are quite pricey now

Combiner Wars was right before I returned to collecting TF's, my dark age lasted from sometime during Thrilling 30/Generations all the way to the middle part of Titans Return. So my experience with the rebooted scramble city concept is limited to my Abominus gestalt, which is..spotty? I really like his colors and the size of him but the hip joints are scary soft in places, so getting him to balance in a dynamic pose is a touch frustrating at times. With this in mind it really makes me want to get UW Devastator He so expensive tho! But it would make my inner child thrilled to have such a great representation of him