The Energon Pub

im sorry but you missed my point there.

im saying compare the quality of the top grossing movies in the seventies to those in the modern era


now my point about transformers was in reference to your statement which stated you were susprised it was green lighted, when i would argue it was perfect for green light as it fit into the handy target market which has developed where movie logic is, robots get hit, bits fall off is the pinnacle.

different points, unrelated.

for example the top grossing movies of the 2000's nine were sequels. give the audience what they lapped up first time[/quote]

Isn't that kind of the point of sequels?[/quote]



what is the point

- giving fans another serving of what they got

some of the greatest sequels have been about developing the story, and going in different directions to the original

if the only point of the is to regurgitate what has already been provided then we may as well all give up and jsut produce the same movie over and over

shamone wrote:

OptiMagnus10 wrote:So...basically you're blaming people who are entertained Transformers and action for killing "intelligent" movies?

not at all. transformers isnt the progenitor of this phenomenon, its merely the end result. it acts as a self fulfilling prophecy for the studio execs.

we cant produce intelligent movies, the market isnt there. so we mass produce dumb ass movies, with minimal dialogue (so it selLs abroad), and when the numbers come in its dominated by these dumb ass movies, thus proving their point

when you reduce choice from the audience, then you cant say what they choose is what they want

Thank you for clarifying. That makes perfect sense.
However, I must say I thoroughly enjoyed Revenge of the Fallen. Maybe I'm a dumba$$, I don't know, but I don't think I am. Even my own father loved it. In fact, he loved it so much (along with movie 1) that he wants to go to the first showing at midnight of TF3. So at the same time, you cannot say there are not people that like this stuff.

But this all boils down to opinions. That's it. Some people can be more easily entertained than others. Some people want intelligence and complexity, others just go with the flow as long as it has some entertainment value.

Capt.Failure wrote:

amtm wrote:While yes this is a valid arguement, you also have to realise that you can't immediately assume the only reason people saw it over and over was to "give it another try."
...
As for Bay's opinion? Easily grandstanding to drum up positive buzz. It won't help, since critics hate his films regardless other than The Rock. But as with RotF the viewers will determine it's success.

I agree on both points. I was merely pointing out that the other side was also making assumptions they couldn't prove, since they haven't surveyed everyone who paid to see it to discover their reasons for paying. All statistics need to be taken with a grain of salt.

5150 Cruiser wrote:Ha ha! Man, have to laugh at this. I can understand paying to see it the first time and then coming out not liking it. Thats fair. But then not only did you pay to see it a second time (paying with a gift card is irrelevant since you could have used that gift card for something else that you actually liked. So either way, you wasted your money) but you paid again to see it a third. This isn't fan loyalty, this is stupidity. Sorry. But thats the truth. Just because your a TF fan, doesn't mean you have to like, or force yourself to like anything TF related.

You apparently didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say I was trying to force myself to like something. I wanted to see the IMAX difference visually. And since many of the people who defend the movie seem to suggest "if you only give it a chance, it's not so bad" I wanted to drive home the point that giving it another chance doesn't necessarily change an opinion.

Like i said before, i agree that you won't know if your going to like something unless you've seen it. But what are you trying to say? Thousands of people contributed millions repeatedly because they wanted to force themselves to like this movie? Really?? And this is why ROTF has earned as much as it has?? seriously man.... Thanks for the laugh!

I never said that. You assumed that's what I meant.

amtm wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

amtm wrote:While yes this is a valid arguement, you also have to realise that you can't immediately assume the only reason people saw it over and over was to "give it another try."
...
As for Bay's opinion? Easily grandstanding to drum up positive buzz. It won't help, since critics hate his films regardless other than The Rock. But as with RotF the viewers will determine it's success.

I agree on both points. I was merely pointing out that the other side was also making assumptions they couldn't prove, since they haven't surveyed everyone who paid to see it to discover their reasons for paying. All statistics need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Yeah good point.

Thank you for clarifying. That makes perfect sense.
However, I must say I thoroughly enjoyed Revenge of the Fallen. Maybe I'm a dumba$$, I don't know, but I don't think I am. Even my own father loved it. In fact, he loved it so much (along with movie 1) that he wants to go to the first showing at midnight of TF3. So at the same time, you cannot say there are not people that like this stuff.

But this all boils down to opinions. That's it. Some people can be more easily entertained than others. Some people want intelligence and complexity, others just go with the flow as long as it has some entertainment value.[/quote]

i am as guilty as rest of you.

was i underwhelmed by the first movie yes
did i read the awful reviews of rotf from critics i respect - yes
did i have misgivings about rotf from the trailer - yes

did it stop me paying cash to see it - hell no

will i pay to see dotm if same scenarios pans out - yes


im a sap, a captive audience for the studios. TF is a no brainer to make, they knwo old fans will flock to it regardless of quality

ever since i have seen tf motion picture in cinema twenty odd years ago all i wanted as live action version.

hence why i believe many of my generations feel let down, we want our choildhood rekindled but with th sensibilities of the adults we are.

would the 6 or 7 year old me love current movies - hell yes

in 20 years time if new movies were made for the first time in 20 years would i be excited - yes

would i be disappointed - probably. they wouldnt live up to my childdood awesomeness memories of the originl live action movies, to my developed eyes

Capt.Failure wrote:

point still stands, the plot characters and logic in rotf are cretinous , yet the "fans" lap it up.

sure if thats what they are into fine, but sadly exec sees this, and as a result output becomes more and more simplistic as movies aimed at mature adults are seen as financial blackholes.

rotf is just one of many pieces which means that intelligent plotted movies are becoming a rarity



i hated that movie too !

Gonna have to call b/s on that one too. As a film buff I think the idea that "simplistic" movies are killing the film industry to be absurd. The plague of remakes and rehashes are doing that, since the executives are afraid to spend money on new ideas. If you ask me it's a miracle the Transformers films got made due to that outlook since it was a new IP in terms of big budget films.

Simplistic films have their place alongside complex films. Liking one does not make you less than if you liked the other, or even both.

I agree with you 100% Cap. I'm a film buff that grew up on all kinds of movies and I not only welcome simple movies, but I appreciate them, just as much as I appreciate any other more complex dramas or thrillers, etc. At the end of the long day, it's those "simple" movies that I can watch over and over. Why do people think it's so wrong to like these. Like it somehow demeans their intelligence, which is down right asinine. I actually feel sorry for the people who can't appreciate a good simple flick. They are really missing out.

Road-hole wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

point still stands, the plot characters and logic in rotf are cretinous , yet the "fans" lap it up.

sure if thats what they are into fine, but sadly exec sees this, and as a result output becomes more and more simplistic as movies aimed at mature adults are seen as financial blackholes.

rotf is just one of many pieces which means that intelligent plotted movies are becoming a rarity



i hated that movie too !

Gonna have to call b/s on that one too. As a film buff I think the idea that "simplistic" movies are killing the film industry to be absurd. The plague of remakes and rehashes are doing that, since the executives are afraid to spend money on new ideas. If you ask me it's a miracle the Transformers films got made due to that outlook since it was a new IP in terms of big budget films.

Simplistic films have their place alongside complex films. Liking one does not make you less than if you liked the other, or even both.

I agree with you 100% Cap. I'm a film buff that grew up on all kinds of movies and I not only welcome simple movies, but I appreciate them, just as much as I appreciate any other more complex dramas or thrillers, etc. At the end of the long day, it's those "simple" movies that I can watch over and over. Why do people think it's so wrong to like these. Like it somehow demeans their intelligence, which is down right asinine. I actually feel sorry for the people who can't appreciate a good simple flick. They are really missing out.

This. Honestly, when has a movie ever truly made someone stupid? Some people who where stupid before have seen movies and tried to imitate what happened in them and died or where injured, sure...but like I said, they where stupid before they saw the movie that led to their demise.

Road-hole wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

point still stands, the plot characters and logic in rotf are cretinous , yet the "fans" lap it up.

sure if thats what they are into fine, but sadly exec sees this, and as a result output becomes more and more simplistic as movies aimed at mature adults are seen as financial blackholes.

rotf is just one of many pieces which means that intelligent plotted movies are becoming a rarity



i hated that movie too !

Gonna have to call b/s on that one too. As a film buff I think the idea that "simplistic" movies are killing the film industry to be absurd. The plague of remakes and rehashes are doing that, since the executives are afraid to spend money on new ideas. If you ask me it's a miracle the Transformers films got made due to that outlook since it was a new IP in terms of big budget films.

Simplistic films have their place alongside complex films. Liking one does not make you less than if you liked the other, or even both.

I agree with you 100% Cap. I'm a film buff that grew up on all kinds of movies and I not only welcome simple movies, but I appreciate them, just as much as I appreciate any other more complex dramas or thrillers, etc. At the end of the long day, it's those "simple" movies that I can watch over and over. Why do people think it's so wrong to like these. Like it somehow demeans their intelligence, which is down right asinine. I actually feel sorry for the people who can't appreciate a good simple flick. They are really missing out.

Yes, this is how I feel to an extent. I don't understand why it is so wrong that I love ROTF. It's such a problem to someone whenever I imply my enjoyment of the film. The simple movies and complex ones both equally entertain me. I can't even tell the difference between a simple one and a complex one when I'm watching them. I watch them simply to be entertained.

ROTF was a retarded, racist, poorly written piece of ****. And I had a great time watching it.

shamone wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:8oo million doesnt make the movie good

it also doesnt mean that of those who spent the money t watch the movie thought it was good

its a rather silly defence to say the movie was good because of its takings.

i dont trust bay to make a better movie and believe that this i pure hype for dotm.

Except it's a perfect defense.

Let's do a little rough math. $400 million (the film's US earnings) divided by $12 (the rough amount a movie ticket costs).

The answer is 33,333,333.33 repeating. Let's just say thirty million people saw the movie once. Of course it's silly to imagine that many saw it once since the financial earnings of high grossing films come from repeat viewings, which is a well known fact. What you're left with is either many people seeing it over and over, something you don't do with a movie you hate, or millions seeing it once. The latter is something that doesn't happen when a movie gets reviews as bad as RoTF.

The only logical conclusion is that despite the Transformer fan community opinion, the movie is insanely popular. I'm not saying you're wrong for not liking it, but it's flat out assinine to say it's hated by everyone. Proof shows that's far from the truth, close to being an outright lie.

i see your point, but that wasnt point i was making

which is popular doesnt mean good.

just as unpopular doesnt mean good.


unfortunately dotm is representative of what studios realise the movie going market is, young dumb 15-22 year olds wno dont care about plot, characters or logic.

This is something I've noticed a lot from people who didn't like RotF. Attacks on the intelligence and taste of those that did. You try to twist things around just to make yourself in the right and it's pathetic. No one is right or wrong for liking it and no one is smarter or has better taste for not liking it. I loved the movie and guess what? I was 26 at the time and my IQ is 135.

i thought in ROTF...the fallen won..but unfortunately he didn't..

Why is this still an issue its on to the next one now get over it people liked ROTF you did'nt deal with it ther's plenty of other things to complain about in the G1 cartoons.

But this all boils down to opinions. That's it. Some people can be more easily entertained than others. Some people want intelligence and complexity, others just go with the flow as long as it has some entertainment value.

No, it doesn't boil down to opinions.
ROTF was a bad movie, period.

When I first saw it I was really dissapointed, especially Devastator getting owned by 2 autobots I hoped would kick the bucket somewhere in the film so that Jolt and Sideswipe would speak a little more.
Second time watching was better, since I didn't have any expectations.

And to say that some people enjoy simplistic bad movies is also shortsighted. I happen to enjoy both. I like movies like Heat, but I also greatly enjoyed Virus (Yess, look it up I think no actor in it liked it). I just thought the cyborgs looked cool .
I even have a collection of Yoshihiro Nishimura films (look it up if you're bored)

So the movie had good and bad points, just like the first one. My opinion is that in ROTF the bad points almost overshadowed the good points.

What I've seen from DOTM it's promising. Hope we don't get served with sex/fart/drugs jokes, I hope mr. Bay reserves that for his American Pie remake.

PS. I'm 26 and pretty sure I have no IQ :p

Evil_the_Nub wrote:

shamone wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:8oo million doesnt make the movie good

it also doesnt mean that of those who spent the money t watch the movie thought it was good

its a rather silly defence to say the movie was good because of its takings.

i dont trust bay to make a better movie and believe that this i pure hype for dotm.

Except it's a perfect defense.

Let's do a little rough math. $400 million (the film's US earnings) divided by $12 (the rough amount a movie ticket costs).

The answer is 33,333,333.33 repeating. Let's just say thirty million people saw the movie once. Of course it's silly to imagine that many saw it once since the financial earnings of high grossing films come from repeat viewings, which is a well known fact. What you're left with is either many people seeing it over and over, something you don't do with a movie you hate, or millions seeing it once. The latter is something that doesn't happen when a movie gets reviews as bad as RoTF.

The only logical conclusion is that despite the Transformer fan community opinion, the movie is insanely popular. I'm not saying you're wrong for not liking it, but it's flat out assinine to say it's hated by everyone. Proof shows that's far from the truth, close to being an outright lie.

i see your point, but that wasnt point i was making

which is popular doesnt mean good.

just as unpopular doesnt mean good.


unfortunately dotm is representative of what studios realise the movie going market is, young dumb 15-22 year olds wno dont care about plot, characters or logic.

This is something I've noticed a lot from people who didn't like RotF. Attacks on the intelligence and taste of those that did. You try to twist things around just to make yourself in the right and it's pathetic. No one is right or wrong for liking it and no one is smarter or has better taste for not liking it. I loved the movie and guess what? I was 26 at the time and my IQ is 135.

In fairness its easy to make the assumption thats its fans are not the smartest when you read some of the posts here

"who cares about character, plot or logic"

"rotf was retarded racist piece of **** and i loved it"


as for enjoying simplistic movies, thats a given, Aliens, T2, Independance Day, hell the star wars movies were all simple movies but highly enjoyable.

ROTF is more than simple, imho, its willfully stupid and ignorant, and shows no respect to its audience, expecting them to be pleased with explosions and crass humour and lazy racial stereotypes.

Simple = good
Willfully stupid - bad

Compare and contrast if you will, T2 and T£, or even dumb and dumber with dumber and dumberer (or whatever it was called)

Honestly,....
What the point any more guys? Half of this thread is people "misunderstanding' the others "points", and even then the typical response has been "Well, we'll have to just agree to disagree".
others have been contradicting themselves to the fullest...

noctorro wrote: No, it doesn't boil down to opinions.
ROTF was a bad movie, period.

Then in the same post...

noctorro wrote: So the movie had good and bad points, just like the first one. My opinion is that in ROTF the bad points almost overshadowed the good points.

I mean seriously??

This (by this I'm implying the whole ROTF good vs. bad debate) is getting ridiculous. I think Evil the Nub hit it on point. No one is right or wrong. no ones opinion is better or carries more weight than the other. Some are really reaching to get there point across. And for what? The other side isn't going to change the opinion on the matter any time soon.
Lets just accept the fact that Bay and co. has admitted some faults of the last movie and are going to attempt to improve on them. If the movie is released and all the stuff that he said won't be in it, is in it, then those that don't like that kind of humor/story/plot etc, can then have free rant to bitch. But until then stop wasting your breath.

5150 Cruiser wrote:Honestly,....
What the point any more guys? Half of this thread is people "misunderstanding' the others "points", and even then the typical response has been "Well, we'll have to just agree to disagree".
others have been contradicting themselves to the fullest...

noctorro wrote: No, it doesn't boil down to opinions.
ROTF was a bad movie, period.

Then in the same post...

noctorro wrote: So the movie had good and bad points, just like the first one. My opinion is that in ROTF the bad points almost overshadowed the good points.

I mean seriously??

This (by this I'm implying the whole ROTF good vs. bad debate) is getting ridiculous. I think Evil the Nub hit it on point. No one is right or wrong. no ones opinion is better or carries more weight than the other. Some are really reaching to get there point across. And for what? The other side isn't going to change the opinion on the matter any time soon.
Lets just accept the fact that Bay and co. has admitted some faults of the last movie and are going to attempt to improve on them. If the movie is released and all the stuff that he said won't be in it, is in it, then those that don't like that kind of humor/story/plot etc, can then have free rant to bitch. But until then stop wasting your breath.

or people can freely express their opinions, and contrdict themselves or make shams of themselves because they are free to do it.

Discourse and debate is what makes life interesting, not oh well i think this, you think that so lets not say anything

No, it doesn't boil down to opinions.
ROTF was a bad movie, period.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. It is a bad movie to you but your opinion is not fact, period.

or people can freely express their opinions, and contrdict themselves or make shams of themselves because they are free to do it.

Discourse and debate is what makes life interesting, not oh well i think this, you think that so lets not say anything

Discourse and debate may be what make life interesting, but what you and many of the film's haters try to do is squash the opinions of the other side with opinions presented as fact with statements such as the former. Silencing the other side's voice is not discussion.

Much of this thread has gone like this...

Hater: See, the movie was bad.

Fan: Maybe to you, but I liked it.

Hater: No, it's BAD! Here's why it's bad! Nobody thought it was good!

Fan: Alot of people did actually, see? Here's why.

Hater: Those are just opinions! It's bad and you're wrong!

Fan: You just said it's an opinion, so how does that make it any more wrong than your own?

*repeat from the first line*

Why not just find comfort in your own opinion of the film rather than attack those who like it when they state such, or discuss your differing opinion civily? 99% of my posts in this thread have been to counter such attacks, not try to drill my opinions down your throat. The other 1% was just what I thought of the film. I think it's ridiculous that those who liked it are forced to defend themselves rather than take part in any civil discussion.

As members of the fanbase, we know, or at least 'remember more frequently at the present time' that Bay has a reputation for lying.As a result, regardless of whether Bay is strategically lying or had a personal reason to tell some truth, his stratagem worked on the masses, on the advertising campaigns for Bay himself, for rotf and for Dotm,according to what I've read here.
Meanwhile,we, as actual fans and not cinema trend & fad followers, are going over the same old same old.

I believe the fanbase made itself the unimportant voice.Hasbro has a routine policy of 'ignore the target audience'.If we are not the target audience, then that is exactly what we are.Think about it.

Chances are that Dotm has been written with intent to save certain aspects of rotf, point being that the actual cinematic rating of rotf won't exist until after the release of DotM.

shamone wrote: or people can freely express their opinions, and contrdict themselves or make shams of themselves because they are free to do it.

Discourse and debate is what makes life interesting, not oh well i think this, you think that so lets not say anything

Sure, you can say anything you want. But when you contridicte yourself to that extent, in the same post mind you, then you loose any credibility.

And at this point, its not even a debate anymore. Its becoming repeditive of the same coments.

I believe the fanbase made itself the unimportant voice.Hasbro has a routine policy of 'ignore the target audience'.If we are not the target audience, then that is exactly what we are.Think about it.

I believe this to be partly true. To a point i do believe that the fan base has dug its own hole. bay and co. did listen to complaints about the first movie and built them into the second...

I.E.- people complained Optimus got pushed around to easy in the first movie. Bay and Co. responed by making him a bad ass. That resulted by people complaining he was too bad hare core leader/warrior whatever. Go figure.

- people bitched the camera's moved to fast and they couldn't tell one robot from another,... Bay and Co. responed by slowing down the camera and showed more detail in the robto scenes. People still complained about the filming.

If the fan base doesn't start to reconise that Hasbro/the producers/writers/Bay etc. did pay attention, At some piont the higher ups are going to stop caring and do what they want.
Bay admitting that there were faults in the ROTF is proof that he/they are listening, but "fans" don't seem to want to listen, or they don't care.

Also, what exactly makes Bay a liar? What did he say that makes someone want to put this kind of label on them?

5150 Cruiser wrote: Also, what exactly makes Bay a liar? What did he say that makes someone want to put this kind of label on them?

I think it was that misinformation campaign before RotF to prevent any spoilers getting leaked. Which doesn't count because he said he was going to release false information.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote: Also, what exactly makes Bay a liar? What did he say that makes someone want to put this kind of label on them?

I think it was that misinformation campaign before RotF to prevent any spoilers getting leaked. Which doesn't count because he said he was going to release false information.

Thats what i kinda figured. But your right, he forwarned everyone so I don't see him as lying, but more "miss-enforming" people with info.

Anyhow, people act saying Megatron wasn't going to be in the movie, was on par with weapons of mass destruction, or not sleeping with the secratary while wiping off the lipstick from your collar.

I believe this to be partly true. To a point i do believe that the fan base has dug its own hole. bay and co. did listen to complaints about the first movie and built them into the second...

Considering the Transformers fanbase is one of the most conservative, self hating, easily angered and spiteful fanbases of any form of media ever I'd say Bay is better off ignoring them. Don't get me wrong this isn't a mean spirited stab at Transformers fans. Remember: I am one too. I'd be lieing through my teeth if I said the concept of Beast Wars was something I accepted with open arms (hell I didn't watch it until years later because of the concept).

OptiMagnus10 wrote:But this all boils down to opinions. That's it. Some people can be more easily entertained than others. Some people want intelligence and complexity, others just go with the flow as long as it has some entertainment value.

noctorro wrote:No, it doesn't boil down to opinions.
ROTF was a bad movie, period.

This has to be one of the worst posts I've read this week. I've heard this over and over and it sounds more ignorant every time I hear it....almost as bad as some of the crap I used to say. ROTF being a bad movie is a slagging opinion. Not a fact. Accept it.

noctorro wrote:When I first saw it I was really dissapointed

There you go. That's how you felt. You didn't say "When I first saw it I realized it was bad", now did you? No. This statement already tells your opinion on the matter.

noctorro wrote:So the movie had good and bad points, just like the first one. My opinion is that in ROTF the bad points almost overshadowed the good points.

This is hilarious. You just undid your first two statements with this one. You directly state "My opinion is that..." See? This is a matter of opinion. Not fact. Now respect the opinions of others. I paid the price for not doing that when I joined.

noctorro wrote:PS. I'm 26 and pretty sure I have no IQ :p

Yeah I'll agree with you.
Trust me though, there have been some downright strange and stupid things posted in this forum (I contributed).

Capt.Failure wrote: Considering the Transformers fanbase is one of the most conservative, self hating, easily angered and spiteful fanbases of any form of media ever I'd say Bay is better off ignoring them. Don't get me wrong this isn't a mean spirited stab at Transformers fans. Remember: I am one too. I'd be lieing through my teeth if I said the concept of Beast Wars was something I accepted with open arms (hell I didn't watch it until years later because of the concept).

I'd agree with this 100%. I've said it multiple times, but in a way, i hope the next reboot is done by some like Uwe Boll. Chances are people would be begging for Bay to come back after his hands get in the mix.