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MINDVVIPE wrote:I got some good advice from a moderator here once, a mod named Burn. He said if you don't really like reading it, don't. Pretty simple. No one is forcing you to read each post in these threads.
Burn wrote:One thing I've never understood about all the hatred for the movies is why EVERYTHING is always Bay's fault.
Why do people completely overlook the two-bit hacks that are Orci and Kurtzman? They're the ones that gave he story to Bay to begin with. They're the ones that most likely came up with the stereotype robots, the bad jokes, the teenage love stories.
Actually, original sript of RotF has neither stupid jokes nor such pathetic Megatron. And this are the two main reasons why RotF was so bad. DotM ending is also enitrely Bay's - and you can feel it, since it seems like retarted ending.Burn wrote:Why do people completely overlook the two-bit hacks that are Orci and Kurtzman? They're the ones that gave he story to Bay to begin with. They're the ones that most likely came up with the stereotype robots, the bad jokes, the teenage love stories.
TurboMMaster wrote:So yes, with different director, both RotF and Dotm could easily be medicore at worst
TurboMMaster wrote:Actually I belive that first movie was quite decent. It's RotF and DotM are the movies that ruined franchise. And I don't belive that Bay can create good Transformers Movie on he's own. Everything was good as long as Bay's hands were tied. And this is why AoE can't be a good movie: It is simply too much "up to Bay." If plot is interesting, Bay is gonna ruined it, if CGI is impresive, Bay is gonna add balls etc. DotM ending is enough to consider Bay as one of the worst directors in history.
One joke. It was one masterbation joke.SlyTF1 wrote:TurboMMaster wrote:Actually I belive that first movie was quite decent. It's RotF and DotM are the movies that ruined franchise. And I don't belive that Bay can create good Transformers Movie on he's own. Everything was good as long as Bay's hands were tied. And this is why AoE can't be a good movie: It is simply too much "up to Bay." If plot is interesting, Bay is gonna ruined it, if CGI is impresive, Bay is gonna add balls etc. DotM ending is enough to consider Bay as one of the worst directors in history.
What the hell makes the first movie so much better? Does anyone not remember masterbation jokes, Bumblebee pissing, and the camera shaking so much you couldn't make out a damn thing every time something remotely interesting was going on?
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:One joke. It was one masterbation joke.SlyTF1 wrote:TurboMMaster wrote:Actually I belive that first movie was quite decent. It's RotF and DotM are the movies that ruined franchise. And I don't belive that Bay can create good Transformers Movie on he's own. Everything was good as long as Bay's hands were tied. And this is why AoE can't be a good movie: It is simply too much "up to Bay." If plot is interesting, Bay is gonna ruined it, if CGI is impresive, Bay is gonna add balls etc. DotM ending is enough to consider Bay as one of the worst directors in history.
What the hell makes the first movie so much better? Does anyone not remember masterbation jokes, Bumblebee pissing, and the camera shaking so much you couldn't make out a damn thing every time something remotely interesting was going on?
And that and Bee's peeing scene were about it for the crudest jokes of that movie, whereas the second couldn't go five minutes without throwing another one in our faces, and the third just kept jumping from one awkward/disturbing/aggravating scene to the next before it finally reached the Chicago battle that was depressing in and of itself.
TF2Revenge shouldn't have included Megatron, instead, it should have taken the example from "War Within 2: Dark Ages", removing Prime & Meg's to focus on others. The Fallen Prime should have been the paramount focus, being well harbinger of a "dead" god/Unicron. The Fallen, a Judas figure in the comic, here, should have been played in almost a supernatural way, even looking like an undead robot, acting as Dracula type, [not zombie], heroic, romantic, and horrifying & evil.
Thunderwing should led the 'Cons, and been the one to summon the Fallen. I think it would have worked better as a film about paranoia & espionage. The Autobots dealing with Thunderwing & Bludgeon, who'd operate in the shadows, with minions in more than just metal disguise, pretenders, adding humans and animals disguises.
http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-fan-art/342437-thunderwing.html
Thunderwing, manipulated by the Fallen, aware of it, but not caring, would take the Matrix from Optimus. Op. Prime, not dying, instead, in a coma. Viewers not sure if he'd live or not.
Grimlock & the Dinobots could have been introduced along with the Constructicons/Devastator. Grimlock leading, & even a proper, reluctant, but very competent Hot Rod.
Limited Edition Botcon's Artist Alley PRINTS. "Dinobots VS Devastator"
http://unrealbooks.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=714&osCsid=3mcg6qd5iuqru3s4iaid5nrri0
The Fallen, in the 2nd to last act, should have been destroyed by the humans - luring him in to a prepared city, filled only with volunteers, Sam himself there to maintain an illusion, using a hydrogen bomb used to slay him. Sam leaving a message for his loved ones, mentioning the joy that the 'Bots gave him, & being willing to repay them, & save earth.
The climax would see Thunderwing shot down over a dramatic vista in battle with, possibly, the Aerialbots. The wreckage of Thunderwing's body found - without the Matrix, setting for the cliffhanger.![]()
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TF3 BOT: The set up for Dark-side of the Moon, should have been better, using what trailers promised & executing the idea better. Shockwave as the main villain. Prime stolen then revived by Shockwave, as Nemesis Prime. Nemesis, with the "dead" Matrix. N. Prime, undead & essentially possessed, a dark prophet hearing from the mysterious "dead" god from the stars.
Only by reviving Alpha Trion on the Moon & using the Key to Vector Sigma to forge a new Matrix & new Prime, & then capturing Optimus/Nemesis, defeating Shockwave. Bludgeon escaping with the "dead" Matrix.![]()
Cybertron Bludgeon by dcjosh - Deviantart.com - http://dcjosh.deviantart.com/art/Cybertron-Bludgeon-37620275
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TF4Our actual next film, though I will still explain what can be done. 4th Movie starts with the new Prime - hunting Bludgeon, only Bludgeon opens the "dead" Matrix, the "dead" god's essence fills the global web, at the same time, Megatron is revived as Galvatron, by the "dead" god, now revealing himself as Unicron. Galvatron, backed by a new army of cons. Start conquering earth.
Galvatron by dcjosh - Deviantart.com
Galvatron seemingly, incinerates Starscream, who was a legit threat to his ruel. In battle giant battle, Bot's Vs Con's, humans on both sides, the new Prime gives Galvatron's army a serious defeat, but is himself, lost in the battle, no one knowing where he is, after. Galvatron learns he was betrayed by Starscream before having killed the him.
Unicron still controls the earth though.
SEEKER TEAM request: SUNSTORM member... by kishiaku - Deviantart.com
Starscream now Sunstorm, having taken opportunity to capture the new Prime, taking the Matrix in to himself, is overwhelmed by it's power. Now, a new creature, burning with holy power, Sunstorm finds the former Nemesis Prime. Giving Optimus a chance to redeem himself, & telling Optimus, his time alive was limited & must save the universe before joining the allspark.
The end could go any number of ways. Ultimately seeing Galvatron exiled, and Unicron defeated.
Other humans could have been added. Many characters of all kinds.
SlyTF1 wrote:This is basically how I feel. But I just ignore most of it, because I know if I say what I want to say, I'll end up getting myself banned.
MINDVVIPE wrote:I got some good advice from a moderator here once, a mod named Burn. He said if you don't really like reading it, don't. Pretty simple. No one is forcing you to read each post in these threads.
Burn wrote:MINDVVIPE wrote:I got some good advice from a moderator here once, a mod named Burn. He said if you don't really like reading it, don't. Pretty simple. No one is forcing you to read each post in these threads.
I still have to read it though.![]()
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go crawl off into my lounge chair, watch Arrow, and die slowly from gout related pain. If people feel the need to start a flamewar, don't call me!
TurboMMaster wrote:Actually, original sript of RotF has neither stupid jokes nor such pathetic Megatron. And this are the two main reasons why RotF was so bad. DotM ending is also enitrely Bay's - and you can feel it, since it seems like retarted ending.Burn wrote:Why do people completely overlook the two-bit hacks that are Orci and Kurtzman? They're the ones that gave he story to Bay to begin with. They're the ones that most likely came up with the stereotype robots, the bad jokes, the teenage love stories.
So yes, with different director, both RotF and Dotm could easily be medicore at worst
Burn wrote:TurboMMaster wrote:So yes, with different director, both RotF and Dotm could easily be medicore at worst
They could also have been a lot worse.
Uwe Boll anyone?
SlyTF1 wrote:TurboMMaster wrote:Actually I belive that first movie was quite decent. It's RotF and DotM are the movies that ruined franchise. And I don't belive that Bay can create good Transformers Movie on he's own. Everything was good as long as Bay's hands were tied. And this is why AoE can't be a good movie: It is simply too much "up to Bay." If plot is interesting, Bay is gonna ruined it, if CGI is impresive, Bay is gonna add balls etc. DotM ending is enough to consider Bay as one of the worst directors in history.
What the hell makes the first movie so much better? Does anyone not remember masterbation jokes, Bumblebee pissing, and the camera shaking so much you couldn't make out a damn thing every time something remotely interesting was going on?
Autobot032 wrote:I've seen Bay films, outside of Transformers. While they're not a thinking man's set of films, they certainly aren't as immature as Transformers has been. I've never seen animals hump, or robot balls or anything of that nature in Armageddon, The Rock (especially The Rock) or Pearl Harbor. Oh and The Island. (Which oddly enough was written by Orci & Kurtzman and I did enjoy it. Perhaps it's Rodgers who's to blame for most of the guttural trash... No. I forgot. They put a whole bunch of whorey skin flick moments in Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness... Nevermind.)
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:I've been wondering the same thing. In all honesty, I enjoyed Armageddon, The Island and The Rock, and frankly he did well with these movies. Not exactly Oscar winners, but I enjoyed them for what they were--action flicks. Most importantly, there were no immature jokes.
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:One thing I can confirm is that the Bumblebee peeing scene, Devy balls and Wheelie humping Fox's leg were Bay's idea. He said as much in the DVD commentaries.
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:Orci and Kurtzman were also on record saying that Kruger was "responsible" for Jetfire's parachute fart scene.
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:So why all the childish jokes only in TF movies? Who knows?
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:It could be as complex as a subconscious attempt to distance himself from a subject matter he's not comfortable with (he prefers more "manly" and slick stories, let's face it), like how people make jokes when caught in an awkward or uncomfortable situation.
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:Or, it's something as simple as just some childish humor added to make the teens laugh.
BTW, the masturbation joke was an improv joke by the actress who played Sam's mom. Bay's innocent of that one, at least.
Autobot032 wrote:Exactly. Thank you.
Autobot032 wrote:Well, that just goes to show you what he thought of the material when this all started. You have to admit, by DOTM, he eased up quite a bit on that kind of stuff. For the most part, it was just dark and violent.
Autobot032 wrote:I love how they throw him under the bus. Nice. -_-
Let's go over a quick list of their efforts, shall we?
[*]Legend Of Zorro: Pretty good, especially when it clocked in at 90 minutes. Briskly paced, considering all of what happened. Oh. Wait, what's that? There's another HOUR to go? And it's boring and slow? Aw crap. (It was exactly that.)
[*]Star Trek: Kirk has an issue with standing up. He hung off of a ledge as a child, he hung off of a ledge during the planetary drill sequence, he hung off of a ledge yet again during the final battle with Nero and his men. (How many times can you wring that idea out?!) On top of that, they made Kirk a TERRIBLE fighter. I give them credit for putting a lot of fight in him, but he clearly lacked the skill. Which the original did not. Forgot to add... Kirk just had to be bangin' the Orion chick. (I'm glad she wasn't a slave like in the original) His ho status remained intact. (Although the original wasn't that bad.)
[*]Star Trek Into Darkness: ...seriously, Jim, get some grav boots. (AKA we made him dangle near death, hanging off of something again. Cuz God Bless America, that's what the world wants to SEE!) When I saw this, again, I was like O_o Fortunately, they did give him the ability to fight well this time. Forgot to add, Kirk's doing TWINS this time in the beginning of the flick AND he stares at Carol Marcus, even though she told him to turn around and NOT look. The way she was standing there with her arms out in a "lookit me!" pose was nothing more than a gratuitous flesh show.
[*]Transformers: Adolescent freak show meets adolescent dream girl, hijinks ensue because he's an idiot and his parents are wasted on wine. But wait...what's this? His car turns into a giant alien robot? And it speaks through the radio?! NO WAI MAN! Along the way, there are jokes about a dog's bling, the dog urinating on a giant robot who then wants to terminate said creature, and...wow. That's exasperating. You get the point. Eh, might as well add that Mikaela was leered at as a piece of meat for the majority of the film.
[*]Revenge Of The Fallen: Could've been good, they screwed everyone by taking their little hiatus because they weren't getting their dues or some nonsense. (Plenty of people don't get their dues every day, are they ALL striking? No.) Now, I did enjoy the film, but it's ridiculously flawed. And you can see where their ever so gentle touch hit the script.
They have no right to be putting Kruger's head on a pike when they're the ones who started this whole mess.
Autobot032 wrote:Because it's a childish property. Believe me, I have missed out on the fact that this all started with comics and cartoons with the purpose of selling toys. It's a silly, silly thing. I embrace that, actually. Though pissing Bumblebee way crosses the line. It was never THAT silly. Bay's comments and approach prove that there was no respect for the material when he started. I do think he's grown to respect it at least some, now.
Autobot032 wrote:Now that's a fair point. I will give you that one. I don't think Bay's perfect, but he's not the monster he's been painted as. I do think he's socially awkward as we've been lead to believe by past stars working with him. Doesn't make him a bad guy, but it does make him a difficult guy. Which does suck, no doubt. I do think he's making Transformers manly and slick as you put it. Slow going, but it's happening. What if he's actually telling the truth this time? What if it serious and there's no goofiness? I'm not sure it could work, honestly. We're so used to the movieverse as it is now, you make such a harsh change like this, all of a sudden and without warning, it might lose it's audience. I do want to see where they take it. We might just be surprised. (Most likely not, I concede, but maybe.)
Autobot032 wrote:Sadly, the childish humor worked on all people in all walks of life. People can come on here and say they didn't laugh, but that's bull. The theater I went to (I saw multiple showings), all the audiences laughed. A lot. So, what does that say about us, as people? Not much. And the masturbation joke sounds like something Julie White would do. She's kinda nutty. Awesome, but nutty.
Autobot032 wrote:SlyTF1 wrote:This is basically how I feel. But I just ignore most of it, because I know if I say what I want to say, I'll end up getting myself banned.
No one's getting banned, because they're not going to go overboard. Okay? Great.
Autobot032 wrote:TurboMMaster wrote:Actually, original sript of RotF has neither stupid jokes nor such pathetic Megatron. And this are the two main reasons why RotF was so bad. DotM ending is also enitrely Bay's - and you can feel it, since it seems like retarted ending.Burn wrote:Why do people completely overlook the two-bit hacks that are Orci and Kurtzman? They're the ones that gave he story to Bay to begin with. They're the ones that most likely came up with the stereotype robots, the bad jokes, the teenage love stories.
So yes, with different director, both RotF and Dotm could easily be medicore at worst
One other thing people are overlooking here and still blaming Bay for. The writer's strike. ROTF, like many other productions, was hit hard by the writer's strike. Which was ridiculous and a total waste. (All that picketing and striking for what? Subpar writing that continues to this day? Canceled shows and box office bomb movies that still stink up the sewer?) Bay had people to answer to. Not just his crew to which he is fiercely loyal (seriously, he might be a hardass, but the people who work for him love him) but also to Paramount and Dreamworks who were burning through money by the day, trying to get it to theaters on time.
Those two hacks, Orci & Kurtzman, along with every other Tom, Dick and Harry who think they can write their way out of a paper bag (but can't even write down a phone number), decided to strike right in the middle of doing all this after everyone signed on, checks were written, flight plans laid out, etc. You get the idea. Bay did help with the script, that's true, but he was forced to. When you have multibillion dollar conglomerates breathing down your neck, plus people beneath you who need to feed their families and keep roofs over their heads, it's not such a pleasant thought, now is it?
Even if the strike hadn't occurred, the film still would've been bad because of Orci & Kurtzman. Both ROTF and DOTM had a saving grace... Ehren Kruger. The best parts of ROTF I'm sure came from him, while all of the awesome of DOTM came from him.
The first film is just flat out boring. Sure, it has the wow factor going for it, but it doesn't carry a film. I don't care so much for Sam and his parents that I want to watch them for 56 minutes in a film about alien robots. (Seriously, the Transformers, for which the film is titled, don't even show up until about 56/57 minutes into the film. And even then, they're stretched thin with even more human element.) All of the problems with the first film are due to Orci, Kurtzman and Rodgers. (The latter of them wrote Halle Berry's Catwoman. Meeowch.)
I've seen Bay films, outside of Transformers. While they're not a thinking man's set of films, they certainly aren't as immature as Transformers has been. I've never seen animals hump, or robot balls or anything of that nature in Armageddon, The Rock (especially The Rock) or Pearl Harbor. Oh and The Island. (Which oddly enough was written by Orci & Kurtzman and I did enjoy it. Perhaps it's Rodgers who's to blame for most of the guttural trash... No. I forgot. They put a whole bunch of whorey skin flick moments in Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness... Nevermind.)
Rodimus Prime wrote:I read all the posts regarding the debate about the writers, and they include all my reasoning for saying that considering the overall flow of story as well as specific details regarding to events and characters, I prefer Ehren Kruger over Orci&Kurtzman. I also agree that the writers' strike is mainly responsible for the damage caused to RoTF (it could have been a really GREAT sequel, maybe not to the level of T2: Judgment Day, Dark Knight or Empire, but at least around The Road Warrior. Instead we get Temple of Doom-like ineptness.) because it put the responsibility of adding finishing touches to the script on Bay himself. He's hell of an action shooter but a marginal storyteller, so of course the story suffered.
Tronus_Rex wrote:I've done the same but chose to stay out. I will say that the "dynamic duo" have a fun and good style, but, the writers strike did effect TF2 RotF, as has been pointed out. But when you compare TF Prime to TF3 DotM, you can see that Bay still has a very heavy influence.
Burn wrote:Tronus_Rex wrote:I've done the same but chose to stay out. I will say that the "dynamic duo" have a fun and good style, but, the writers strike did effect TF2 RotF, as has been pointed out. But when you compare TF Prime to TF3 DotM, you can see that Bay still has a very heavy influence.
Bay would have an influence, but you can't compare a big budget movie to a cartoon. O&K wrote the movie, but only produce the cartoon.
If you're going to give them credit for TF Prime then you may as well give Don Murphy credit for the movies.
And that man doesn't deserve credit.
Tronus_Rex wrote:
I hope TF4 is like Pirates 4, a film that is considered by many, to be as good, or even better than the first film.![]()
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SlyTF1 wrote:Tronus_Rex wrote:
I hope TF4 is like Pirates 4, a film that is considered by many, to be as good, or even better than the first film.![]()
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That's another movie series that bewilders me as to why people like the first more than the second and third.
SlyTF1 wrote:Tronus_Rex wrote:
I hope TF4 is like Pirates 4, a film that is considered by many, to be as good, or even better than the first film.![]()
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That's another movie series that bewilders me as to why people like the first more than the second and third.
Tronus_Rex wrote:But, if you enjoyed the 3rd, then please, enjoy it. Unless it actually stops being fun for you, why care what anyone thinks, but yourself?
SlyTF1 wrote:Tronus_Rex wrote:But, if you enjoyed the 3rd, then please, enjoy it. Unless it actually stops being fun for you, why care what anyone thinks, but yourself?
Because every time I watch the movies, all I can think about is how much everyone hates them, then I feel like a dumbass for liking things no one else does.
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