The Energon Pub

Swerve wrote:No, it was the first or second weekend in November. Which makes that figure impressive when you consider it was reached, and it wasn't even the busiest shopping day of the year.

You are correct, sir.

npk wrote:I honestly don't think Joe Blow wants HD in the first place.
There just isn't enough difference in picture quality to justify ANY difference in price to Joe.
Joe will adopt HD when HD is ubiquitous and not before, IMO.

That's possibly true. I know many people that still haven't switched over to an HD TV yet. They can't imagine spending that much money on a television when the one they have right now is still working just fine.

It remains to be seen how the mandatory HD switch in 2009 is going to affect those without HD televisions. If an HD convertor, which is basically going to allow people with regualr TVs to still pick up broadcasts, is a cheaper alternative, they'll probably still go with that instead. I'm surprised that places still sell regular old tube TVs. I guess they have to get rid of the stock they have.

I feel that if HD is going to be mandatory in the near future, manufacturers need to appeal to the person that doesn't want to spend anymore money than they have to or try to show a bigger value in HD. A company willing to reach those people will do really well. While i can't find the actual number, I've read and heard mixed extimates that anywhere from as few as 9% to about 25% of the US has bought into HD, so I imagine there is a huge portion of the consumer market there just waiting to be tapped.

Swerve wrote:

npk wrote:I honestly don't think Joe Blow wants HD in the first place.
There just isn't enough difference in picture quality to justify ANY difference in price to Joe.
Joe will adopt HD when HD is ubiquitous and not before, IMO.

That's possibly true. I know many people that still haven't switched over to an HD TV yet. They can't imagine spending that much money on a television when the one they have right now is still working just fine.

It remains to be seen how the mandatory HD switch in 2009 is going to affect those without HD televisions.

I wouldnt take the 2009 deadline very seriously, the industry and government have tried to set these kind of deadlines before but the fact remains, as NPK said, many consumers simply have no desire to upgrade at this point.

If they suddenly cut the analog signal to all televisions, millions upon millions of people would be affected. There are simply too many people still watching tv through a beat up old crt to allow for a mandatory switch to HD.

This change will be a slow burn, not an overnight cutoff. Slowly all the major television stations will switch to HD and crts will be pulled from the market until LCD, Plasma and Projection are all that is available. The final step will be when all major cable and satelite providers no longer offer anything below an HD box.

Sid Burn wrote:It was almost as if you were being misleading on purpose. As Abilor pointed out, 30 gigs IS a dual layered HDDVD, it HAS been tapped.

seriously, I cannot argue with someone pulling facts from fiction. Do some research and repost. As it is your only point of interest is the low price of HDDVD players, though they are still outsold by BD players (and you cant negate consoles, that isnt valid, the BD rom is a selling point for consumers, not a "forced" add on)

Honestly, if you believe half of the things you write, then you have been misled yourself. Sorry to be the one to let you know.

Trust me, I know very much what I am talking about. I'm dumbing it down so that your fabled "joe blow" can follow along. HD-DVD is an expandable media. So even though a single layer HD-DVD disc is less than that of a BR, it means nothing, since it can be expanded to accomodate higher volume, if needed (which, again, this has yet to be needed).

Find me a movie that requires more than 51 gigs of disc space and I'll give Blu-Ray the credit that you are so willing to throw at them for another useless cost-raising feature.

No one pulls facts from fiction quite as well as BR and PS3 fanboys. Proclaiming BR superior due to an utterly useless technical spec is like saying Coke is better than Pepsi because you can put Coke in a bigger can.

Also, saying consoles don't count is completely fair. If HD-DVD was included in every 360 whether or not the buyer wanted it, there'd be some 13 million HD-DVD players out there, as opposed to PS3's 5.5 million BR players which probably only get used by a fraction of their owners, since not everyone even owns an HD television.

So the BR argument that BR outsells HD is the definition of pulling fact from fiction. Stand alone HD players FAR outsell stand-alone BR players. No one buys a PS3 so that they can get a $600 Blu-Ray player. For another 'joe blow' analogy, that'd be equivalent to buying a car so you can have a radio. Dumb dumb dumb.

The only reason Blu-Ray still thrives is because Sony FORCES their customers to buy one in order to play the PS3. This is FACT, not opinion.

I wish Sony would just release a non-BR playing PS3 just to show how much people DON'T want PS3 because of the BR player. Wait, they did... the PS2 - which is still outselling Xbox 360 and PS3 combined monthly and currently at 39 million... Interesting.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/04/xbox ... ps-to-129/

XBox 360 HD-DVD Drive is now $130.00 and can attach to a Windows PC via USB.

That will definitely help bolster HD-DVD's sales. Not to mention the five free HD-DVD movies just for purchasing the drive (or other HD-DVD player).

I'm a tad shocked at the price drop, honestly.

EDIT: Six movies. Five from the coupon and King Kong, included with the drive.

TheStarScreamer wrote:Trust me, I know very much what I am talking about. I'm dumbing it down so that your fabled "joe blow" can follow along. HD-DVD is an expandable media. So even though a single layer HD-DVD disc is less than that of a BR, it means nothing, since it can be expanded to accomodate higher volume, if needed (which, again, this has yet to be needed).

Find me a movie that requires more than 51 gigs of disc space and I'll give Blu-Ray the credit that you are so willing to throw at them for another useless cost-raising feature.

No one pulls facts from fiction quite as well as BR and PS3 fanboys. Proclaiming BR superior due to an utterly useless technical spec is like saying Coke is better than Pepsi because you can put Coke in a bigger can.

Also, saying consoles don't count is completely fair. If HD-DVD was included in every 360 whether or not the buyer wanted it, there'd be some 13 million HD-DVD players out there, as opposed to PS3's 5.5 million BR players which probably only get used by a fraction of their owners, since not everyone even owns an HD television.

So the BR argument that BR outsells HD is the definition of pulling fact from fiction. Stand alone HD players FAR outsell stand-alone BR players. No one buys a PS3 so that they can get a $600 Blu-Ray player. For another 'joe blow' analogy, that'd be equivalent to buying a car so you can have a radio. Dumb dumb dumb.

The only reason Blu-Ray still thrives is because Sony FORCES their customers to buy one in order to play the PS3. This is FACT, not opinion.

I wish Sony would just release a non-BR playing PS3 just to show how much people DON'T want PS3 because of the BR player. Wait, they did... the PS2 - which is still outselling Xbox 360 and PS3 combined monthly and currently at 39 million... Interesting.

Alright, this will be my last attempt with you since you blatantly dont know what you are speaking about. I also have no desire to debate someone who lowers the argument to insults rather than points and counterpoints.

Bluray is an integral part of PS3 architecture to be used for games AND movies, your desire for a bluray stripped PS3 is impossible.

Sony isnt forcing anything, noone made these millions of people buy a PS3, again, the BDROM is what makes the PS3 so desirable in gaming and Hd movie viewing.

HDDVDs move to an expanded 51 gig disk is only possible on a trilayered disk, just to get the same storage as a standard dual layered Blu disk. There is already a prototype for a 6 layer 200gb bluray disc so please dont argue expandability with me.
I would like to see a future where the entire LOTR trilogy in HD comes on one disc, you cant have that with HDDVD.

It really comes down to the market and what consumers are choosing with their wallets. Here are some stats for you from black friday.

"According to Neilsen/VideoScan, Blu-ray software sales for the week of Black Friday were 72.6% - compared to just 27.4% for HD DVD. Describing the notably successful HD DVD promotions evident throughout the high-profile shopping day as a "fire sale," Blu-ray continues to claim victory in the sheer number of high-definition titles moved. Stating that as of November 24, there were 2.7 million Blu-ray capable machines in houses in North America (this figure includes Playstation 3 consoles), the announcement contrasts these numbers against the 750,000 players and game drives recently announced by the HD DVD camp last."

Here are some other fun facts for you to consider on a more worldwide scale where the gap in sales is much wider between Blu and HDDVD

"Total sales of Blu-ray movies in the US topped the 4 million mark in November. It took 10 months for Blu-ray Disc sales to top 1 million, just over three months to reach the two million, less than 3 months to reach three million and just over 2 months to reach the four million. Despite a significant head start in the market, HD DVD didn't pass the 2.5 million mark until the middle of November.

Year-to-date (through Nov. 25), Blu-ray movie titles have outsold HD DVD in the US by a 2-to-1 margin.

Of the top 20 high-definition titles in the US this year, 18 are available on Blu-ray.

Blu-ray movie have 73% of the market in Europe – outselling HD DVD by a 3-to-1 margin according to sales data provided by Media Control Gfk International.

Blu-ray's share of the HD recorder market in Japan is now 95% as of the week ending November 12, 2007, according to Media Control Gfk International."

As I said, the sales numbers are what they are. You are welcome to any format you like, I am only trying to educate people on which side is giving the consumer more.

Sid Burn wrote:I am only trying to educate people on which side is giving the consumer more.

Which is generally appreciated, however (and this is not the first time, I've noticed it) it comes across as being extremely harsh in spots.

I realize this is a hot button issue with you (and many others) but sometimes we allow the simplest things to get carried away.

It's alright if you're a fan of PS3/Blu-Ray and others might be fans of HD-DVD...in the end, isn't what makes you happy the most important?

Is it really necessary to fight over something like this? Seriously?

Autobot032 wrote:

Sid Burn wrote:I am only trying to educate people on which side is giving the consumer more.

Which is generally appreciated, however (and this is not the first time, I've noticed it) it comes across as being extremely harsh in spots.

I realize this is a hot button issue with you (and many others) but sometimes we allow the simplest things to get carried away.

It's alright if you're a fan of PS3/Blu-Ray and others might be fans of HD-DVD...in the end, isn't what makes you happy the most important?

Is it really necessary to fight over something like this? Seriously?

Totally agree with you Autobot, I am not going to push on the subject anymore. You are right, I am pretty passionate about Bluray and all its possibilites, I wasnt looking for a debate but it sucked me right in.

On the plus side, this format debate was one of the reasons you and I became buddies a while back, so it isnt all bad
I think that was when Bay first opened his mouth on the subject funnily enough.

To each his own is the best way to leave it. At the moment if would take a determined eye to see the difference in quality, but in the future, that gap will widen to favour BDrom in my opinion.

Blu-Ray discs have way more capacity than the HD-DVD discs but I am sure this is just for now.
I do own a PS3 but to me there is no difference between the two. It is bogus that Transformers is not released on Blu-Ray but for now I think these disks are too expensive anyway.

For a while there this was becoming a pissing contest. In all honesty is was starting to look kind of lame.

Sid Burn wrote:Alright, this will be my last attempt with you since you blatantly dont know what you are speaking about. I also have no desire to debate someone who lowers the argument to insults rather than points and counterpoints.

I fail to see where I have insulted you. If having a good debate with solid arguements and a differing stance on the topic is insulting to you, then perhaps you should cool off from the topic. Here's some news for you: using "you don't know what are speaking about" to retort a very mature and valid post is lowering the argument.

This format war will NOT be decided by how many Blu-Ray discs are sold. It will not be decided by how many PS3s are sold. It will be decided when the public makes the jump and picks up a stand-alone player of either type. Not everyone, not even CLOSE to everyone who watches movies does so on a PS3. This may come as news to you.

Just because a couple million people watch Wild Hogs and Ratatooille on their PS3 does not make the brand any better. Better sales does NOT equal better product. Case in point - iPod.

We see your point - BR sells better. But until you can come up with any valid reason that it is actually a better product, then we're arguing 2 different points, altough you fail to see the difference. Stop trying to defend your PS3 purchase by berating HD-DVD.

The 2 are just as good as each other a best. They both have very minor and pointless tech spec differences, but overall, it is going to come down to price first (which HD is owning) and titles second (which won't matter once either side wins).

TheStarScreamer wrote:

Sid Burn wrote:Alright, this will be my last attempt with you since you blatantly dont know what you are speaking about. I also have no desire to debate someone who lowers the argument to insults rather than points and counterpoints.

I fail to see where I have insulted you:

perhaps you should cool off from the topic.
This may come as news to you.
until you can come up with any valid reason
altough you fail
Stop trying to defend your PS3 purchase by berating HD-DVD.
Trust me, I know very much what I am talking about.
I'm dumbing it down
useless cost-raising feature
No one pulls facts from fiction quite as well as BR and PS3 fanboys.
the definition of pulling fact from fiction
Dumb dumb dumb
This is FACT, not opinion

Abilor wrote:

TheStarScreamer wrote:

Sid Burn wrote:Alright, this will be my last attempt with you since you blatantly dont know what you are speaking about. I also have no desire to debate someone who lowers the argument to insults rather than points and counterpoints.

I fail to see where I have insulted you:

perhaps you should cool off from the topic.
This may come as news to you.
until you can come up with any valid reason
altough you fail
Stop trying to defend your PS3 purchase by berating HD-DVD.
Trust me, I know very much what I am talking about.
I'm dumbing it down
useless cost-raising feature
No one pulls facts from fiction quite as well as BR and PS3 fanboys.
the definition of pulling fact from fiction
Dumb dumb dumb
This is FACT, not opinion

Couldnt have said it better myself, you told the entire thread that you were dumbing it down for them. I dont think people enjoyed that.

As a final note, you mentioned that when a final format is decided, it wont matter who got the most sales, but it is the format that gets the most sales that generally becomes the standardized format, little circular logic there.

Anyway, as I told Autobot, I wont push the issue, I think that the Blu fans have said their piece and that most of the valid arguments for HDDVD have been for lower pricing which I agreed to, though I stand by the idea of "you get what you paid for." Cheaper isnt better, its just cheaper.

Abilor wrote:

TheStarScreamer wrote:

Sid Burn wrote:Alright, this will be my last attempt with you since you blatantly dont know what you are speaking about. I also have no desire to debate someone who lowers the argument to insults rather than points and counterpoints.

I fail to see where I have insulted you:

perhaps you should cool off from the topic.
This may come as news to you.
until you can come up with any valid reason
altough you fail
Stop trying to defend your PS3 purchase by berating HD-DVD.
Trust me, I know very much what I am talking about.
I'm dumbing it down
useless cost-raising feature
No one pulls facts from fiction quite as well as BR and PS3 fanboys.
the definition of pulling fact from fiction
Dumb dumb dumb
This is FACT, not opinion

.

Useless Picture

The minute you resort to using internet slang pictures you begin to lose creditability. Both of you are backing your points with facts, that aspect of your posts cant be disputed, but the simple fact that one is seeing insults where in reality there is no implied insult and takes offense to it makes the whole damn convo really pointless and immature.

Anytime a console company uses a certain format for its games they are forcing the comsumer that wants to continue to have a relationship with said company to use that particular tech. Sometimes it is for the better, ie nintendo vs sony with sony's use of disc's for the playstation instead of cartridges, sometimes its not for the better likes sony's attempt at Minidisc and UMD's.

In the end the consumer will decide who wins out and it may be for better or for worse when it comes down to it but price and affordability will be the biggest factor in the end.

I'd prefer direct media downloads. It would be cheaper- there would be less garbage, less use of oil for plastics, and better all around. And if you really, REALLY wanted the object, then for apying a little more, you probably would get something nice (like a special edition) that comes with a book. But Digital is the way to go.

And Bay is still a jerk.

Robinson wrote:The minute you resort to using internet slang pictures you begin to lose creditability.

Sorry. Seibertron folks don't like allegorical postings? I thought I was only burning creditability I'd already earned with detailed posts that get less response than, "BLURAY PWNS UR ALL HATERS HDVDD IS GAY! HAX4EVA!"

Why then are so many threads full of fluffy, ginormous sigs?

I'm NOT trying to pick a fight here, if it's a problem, I'll stop.

Robinson wrote:The minute you resort to using internet slang pictures you begin to lose creditability. Both of you are backing your points with facts, that aspect of your posts cant be disputed, but the simple fact that one is seeing insults where in reality there is no implied insult and takes offense to it makes the whole damn convo really pointless and immature.

Yes. Thank you. I think your avatar is very fitting to this point as well.

SoooTrypticon wrote:I'd prefer direct media downloads. It would be cheaper- there would be less garbage, less use of oil for plastics, and better all around. And if you really, REALLY wanted the object, then for apying a little more, you probably would get something nice (like a special edition) that comes with a book. But Digital is the way to go.

And Bay is still a jerk.

I'm surprised more aren't in favor of this. The bulk of direct download is off of usenet and torrents. I have a "premium" cable modem without the digital television, and I can pull down 14 megabits (~2 Megabytes) per second, only $60 a month. That's an *uncompressed* HD-DVD or Blu-Ray (which weight the same, about ~25 gig) in about 3.5 hours. A compressed blu-ray or HD-DVD gets pulled down in about an hour. The Xbox Live movie service, a viable commercial application of this, can get you watching HD movies after only about ten minutes by using the buffer.

It's a lot more viable than people think! Of course, I was the type who left a 2400 baud modem churn for four days at a time for a single file... I feel spoiled rotten now.

Abilor wrote:

Robinson wrote:The minute you resort to using internet slang pictures you begin to lose creditability.

Sorry. Seibertron folks don't like allegorical postings? I thought I was only burning creditability I'd already earned with detailed posts that get less response than, "BLURAY PWNS UR ALL HATERS HDVDD IS GAY! HAX4EVA!"

Why then are so many threads full of fluffy, ginormous sigs?

I'm NOT trying to pick a fight here, if it's a problem, I'll stop.

I'm not picking one either I am just saying what I see on the outside looking in.

Now I haven't seen any "BLURAY PWNS UR ALL HATERS HDVDD IS GAY! HAX4EVA!" post or anything in regards to the"leet" type of post that is lame in itself. What i have seen is a couple people that express their opinion of hd over blu ray and vise versa. They may have not done it in the most expressive way but hey what can you do. Then there were those like myself that had no opinion one way or another. Then you have 3 presumably grown adults getting into a pissing match over what tech is better and "I can pull better facts than you". 1 of those individuals states that someone is being immature with name calling and/or insults and then goes on to post a useless picture. If you feel you are so above their "level" and they are insulting you by dumbing it down then don't stoop to their level, it just makes you look like that much more of an ass to some people.

People will have their favorites. To you and a few others its Blu Ray, to some it's HD-DVD, To the rest its dvd and vhs. Hell I watch more movies on my PSP than I do on my dvd player, Guess what its a 5 inch screen compared to 50 inch, its cheap 10 dollar headphones and a sore arm from holding the psp for 2 hours but you know what I get enjoyment out of it and I'm not trying to justify why its so much better. YOu like what you like, I like what I like, and others Like what you don't like plain and simple.

Robinson wrote:

Abilor wrote:

Robinson wrote:The minute you resort to using internet slang pictures you begin to lose creditability.

Sorry. Seibertron folks don't like allegorical postings? I thought I was only burning creditability I'd already earned with detailed posts that get less response than, "BLURAY PWNS UR ALL HATERS HDVDD IS GAY! HAX4EVA!"

Why then are so many threads full of fluffy, ginormous sigs?

I'm NOT trying to pick a fight here, if it's a problem, I'll stop.

I'm not picking one either I am just saying what I see on the outside looking in.

Now I haven't seen any "BLURAY PWNS UR ALL HATERS HDVDD IS GAY! HAX4EVA!" post or anything in regards to the"leet" type of post that is lame in itself. What i have seen is a couple people that express their opinion of hd over blu ray and vise versa. They may have not done it in the most expressive way but hey what can you do. Then there were those like myself that had no opinion one way or another. Then you have 3 presumably grown adults getting into a pissing match over what tech is better and "I can pull better facts than you". 1 of those individuals states that someone is being immature with name calling and/or insults and then goes on to post a useless picture. If you feel you are so above their "level" and they are insulting you by dumbing it down then don't stoop to their level, it just makes you look like that much more of an ass to some people.

People will have their favorites. To you and a few others its Blu Ray, to some it's HD-DVD, To the rest its dvd and vhs. Hell I watch more movies on my PSP than I do on my dvd player, Guess what its a 5 inch screen compared to 50 inch, its cheap 10 dollar headphones and a sore arm from holding the psp for 2 hours but you know what I get enjoyment out of it and I'm not trying to justify why its so much better. YOu like what you like, I like what I like, and others Like what you don't like plain and simple.

Whoah. Rein in your pwnies. For the record, I posted the "picture" that was SO terrible and inappropriate and childish, curtailing the otherwise loquacious and refereed exposition on the topic, but I was NOT the poster who felt insulted. Though I did intervene on his behalf upon viewing what I characterize as encephelatic anal insertion, as per previous post.

Besides, though my age is advanced based on internet standards, I never claimed to be "adult."

I never directly said it was you that was insulted, I said 1 of the 3 people that were disucssing the format war in detail indicated that the other was being insulting. If I spoke too soon in presuming that you are an adult then I apologize but showing off how many big words you can use in a sentences does not directly indicate "advanced age by internet standards". Please don't try to show off how intelligent you may be because in the end some people may just be more put off by your attitude than needed.

We are all here for one common thing and thats an affinity for transformers. We all in one form or another play with kids toys, theres no need to act superior to one another.

Honestly what is so much better about Blu Ray? DVD disc is the future, HD DVD is the industry standard update to DVD. Blu-ray is just the next evoloution of Sony's Beta Max tape, Mini-disc, and UMD disc, all of which failed. Has a sony media format ever survived? Sony sucks, they don't know what they are doing. And since Blu Ray is a sony technology I imagine you get "disc read" errors like crazy because the fact is sony and lasers don't mix. they have the worst CD players, their game console lasers fail, and their dvd drives go bad.

Blu Ray was dead before it hit the market.

Cormaster628 wrote:Honestly what is so much better about Blu Ray? DVD disc is the future, HD DVD is the industry standard update to DVD. Blu-ray is just the next evoloution of Sony's Beta Max tape, Mini-disc, and UMD disc, all of which failed. Has a sony media format ever survived? Sony sucks, they don't know what they are doing. And since Blu Ray is a sony technology I imagine you get "disc read" errors like crazy because the fact is sony and lasers don't mix. they have the worst CD players, their game console lasers fail, and their dvd drives go bad.

Blu Ray was dead before it hit the market.

Whoa. Hold up there a second, cowboy.

We don't know what the future is for this format and won't for quite some time. (Which is why I'm remaining neutral for now before spending the dough.)

Yes, it's true that their CD players, PS2s, DVD drives, etc go bad. (Sony used to be a name you could depend on)

But to say all of their formats have failed? No.

Sony helped design the compact disc (and look at where it is now) and without it, DVDs most likely would've never been thought of, or at least not as they are now.

Yeah, Minidiscs have failed, and Beta, and UMD disc, so it does give credence to the idea that Blu-Ray could fail (especially at the prices it commands) but to say it will absolutely fail is just pulling facts out of thin air.

I'd say within the next year (or once the HD standard kicks in) we'll finally see a winner in this debate. Until then, it's anyone's game.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing Sony get knocked down a few pegs.

If anyone else had designed Blu-Ray, I'd give it a fair shake, but since it comes from them and their quality (recently) is notorious for being absolute crap in some things (fine in others, like...remotes and headphones) I just can't give Blu-Ray much credit right now.

I'd rather not let Microsoft win the war either, but nothing you can do about it in all honesty.

i think everyone its nuts , who gives a crap if its normal or HD or blue ray.. thats all my brother kept braggin about with his HD tv and how it was sooooo clear .. Kept pestering me to come see it and when i did , big friggen deal man you got suckerd into buying somthing to follow the flock. ooooo you can see the faces of the people in the crowd when the game is on , wft who cares you are watching the game not the fans .. .. i got the normal DVD and an happy i got the movie could care less if i can see the so called detail.. its a waste of money if you ask me,

TheStarScreamer wrote:Blu-Ray... superior? HAHAHAHAHA!

I needed that kind of joke this morning. Anyone who thinks Blu-Ray s superior obviously doesn't remember the last few format war spearheaded by Sony *cough* (betamax) (minidisc) *cough*

LMAO! Dont forget UMD, which sony claimed would replace and combine DVD's and Cd's.

Anything Sony is behind is something to stay away from