The Energon Pub

WonkoTheSane42 wrote::-?

Absolute Zero wrote:When asked if you believe black people matter, that their lives have worth, and you can't say "Yes, they do have worth and value and indeed matter." or something along those lines, and instead go back to "I can't support the Black Lives Matter movement" even after being told those are not the same... Eh, I think that speaks for itself. No one is going to go "HA! Gotcha!" if you say yes they do. No one is going to suddenly show up with a card reader telling you to donate or force you to go march.

When your stance is neutral though, I wonder how and why. Because this isn't a question of McDonalds or Burger King, Hasbro or Takara, Popeyes or Chic Fil A, Pepsi or Coke, Biden or Trump, or any other competing brand. It's do the lives of people have value. Should they be treated as equals.

When the first slaves arrived in America in 1619, maybe a majority of people didn't think it was right to own another human being. But we'll never know, because that majority didn't stand up. Instead they stayed neutral.

When Jim Crow laws were put into place in America in 1877 following the Civil War, maybe a majority of people didn't think it was right to strip rights from Black people. But we'll never know, because that majority didn't stand up. Instead they stayed neutral.

When Civil Rights started in the 1950s and 1960s, maybe the majority supported it. Maybe we could have avoided the last 60+ years of on again off again protests and riots, and got fully enforced civil rights so everyone would be equal. But we'll never know, because enough people didn't stand up. Instead to many stayed neutral.

So now in 2020, you can't stand up and say "Yeah. I think Black people matter." and stick with neutrality saying "There's always another way" but don't put one forth, and then get upset when people tell you you're part of the problem.

Well, history is pretty clear.

Keep in mind, this is only American history, and doesn't even cover the terrible things done to Native Americans or British problems with race or Australian problems with race or Canadian problems with race. And it's not even a complete history. I'm sure if I spent enough time, I could find a laundry list of times where if people just stood up, things would be different. But sitting in neutrality is comfortable. Standing for something isn't.

Maybe you think this is just a stupid fan site, so it doesn't matter. But if not here, behind your anonymity, then when?

Maybe it is a stupid fan site, but think about why you're here. Think about your favorite characters. Not just from Transformers, but from any and all mediums. Think about what they would do.

Not sure if this post is addressed to me, But I was the last one to post, So if it wasn't addressed to me, Just ignore the following response.
I'll start from the top of the post, And work my way down.
-
"When asked if you believe black people matter"
Of course black people matter. I've never said they don't, And I'll never say they don't.
Some of my friends and favorite people are black. Of course their lives matter.

"When your stance is neutral though"
Not sure if you've read my post on page 6 of this thread, But I am not neutral. As I told Burn, I'm simply not looking for a fight.
Yes black peoples lives have value, And they should be (I always have) treated as equals.

"When the first slaves arrived in America in 1619"
I would have stood up. Unfortunately, Despite my best efforts, I am not yet immortal. Sadly, That was 401 years ago, And I was not alive yet.

"When Jim Crow laws were put into place"
Read previous.

"When Civil Rights started in the 1950s"
Well, We're getting close, But sadly, I was still not alive. Regardless, I still would've stood up.

"So now in 2020, you can't stand up and say "Yeah. I think Black people matter." "
I'll say it again, Yes. I think black people matter. I'm absolutely all for standing on a corner protesting.
But I won't shut down a highway quite possibly full of people who are in agreement with me and have done nothing wrong. The problem with a movement this large, Is there are always bad apples who twist and distort its message to their own ends. Of course this isn't the majority, But they are there.

"Well, history is pretty clear."
Indeed. Nothing to add here.

"But sitting in neutrality is comfortable."
Read second.

"Maybe you think this is just a stupid fan site, so it doesn't matter. But if not here, behind your anonymity, then when?"
I do not think this is a "stupid fan site", And I do believe it matters. And, To quote something I said to Burn,
"I'm always one for a civil conversation about things like this."

"Think about your favorite characters. Not just from Transformers, but from any and all mediums. Think about what they would do."
I have. I don't know if you're familiar with classic X-Men, But I think this is a good analogy. I want to be Charles Xavier here, Not Max Eisenhardt.

You're not looking for a fight? I get that, I really do. But Black people unfortunately don't have the luxury of just avoiding it like that. It is white privilege that you can avoid those fights. I'm not even saying that as a condemnation, just as a wake-up call.

Does this mean you now have to get into every fight possible on this topic? Hell no, a lot of them are sure to be pointless expenditures of time and energy. But please, at least recognize that the fact that you can avoid those fights is a privilege.

-Kanrabat- wrote:It's not just "a few bad apples. If the police of their group won't condemn the violence made by their own side, it's now the whole basket that is rotten


Also, you are in a circular firing squad and you don't know it.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/12/seattle-p ... es-matter/

Fixed the first part for you. The protesters have repeatly condemned violence on their side, to the point they turned people over to the police for smashing things. There has also been reports of off duty/plain clothes white cops breaking windows and **** during the protests.

The second part, he's just one dude, not all of BLM. The original founders of BLM are actually all women (even scarier!) and each city has it's own cell of leadership and operates independently. The leadership cell coordinates when one of the cells requests support. Perhaps you should follow the tenants of Sun Tzu.

High Command wrote:

-Kanrabat- wrote:being lynched for liking a tweet

Deliberate attempt to bait with that choice of word.

Robert Fuller and Malcolm Harsch were two black men found hung in California over the last few days. The police ruling them both suicides without performing any investigation.
Being cancelled on social media is not the same thing.

Don't you know, black men have a history of hanging themselves from trees! All those lynchings was nothing but internet propaganda invented by the Democratic left extremists to take your jobs! Smh. California Police are the worst.

-Kanrabat- wrote:You haven't paid any attention to the articles shown in the video. It's not about "political correctness" at all but CANCEL CULTURE. Search the term. No one is immune. Especially the loudest of the virtue signalers.

TV shows and movies being pulled off the air, sponsorship being lost due to a dissenting opinion

You mean like how groups such as 1 Million Moms (Spoilier, not one million members, also mostly angry white men) try and specifically the Southern Baptist Church did for decades? OH wait, it's only wrong when it's your view being repressed right?

-Kanrabat- wrote:The Purge is here. This is the bed you guys made over the years. Time to sleep in it.

Oh yay! I like that idea! To bad the rules are what, no politicians and no police are allowed to be victims. Hmm... Actually it sounds kinda like we've been living in the Purge for centuries if you're not melanin challenged.

-Kanrabat- wrote:If you want to play that game, some people actually committed suicide over being cancelled on social media.

This is going to be really mean, but they were weak and selfish. Living with major depression and bipolar disorder and really just wanting to die already is really hard. i.w.t.k.m.s.b.i.d.w.m.f.a.f.t.b.s

It's sad that that people kill themselves, but it's worse when you think that the people they left behind mattered so little to them. I've been ready to cash out for a long time, but I keep playing because I don't want to hurt people.

High Command wrote:Laughter is such a pleasant jolly thing, I've changed my mind about you and want to buy you a present now.

Buy him another hentai girl statue for his signature. I'm sure that one has been worn out by now.

WonkoTheSane42 wrote:Not sure if this post is addressed to me, But I was the last one to post, So if it wasn't addressed to me, Just ignore the following response.
I'll start from the top of the post, And work my way down.
-
"When asked if you believe black people matter"
Of course black people matter. I've never said they don't, And I'll never say they don't.
Some of my friends and favorite people are black. Of course their lives matter.

"When your stance is neutral though"
Not sure if you've read my post on page 6 of this thread, But I am not neutral. As I told Burn, I'm simply not looking for a fight.
Yes black peoples lives have value, And they should be (I always have) treated as equals.

"When the first slaves arrived in America in 1619"
I would have stood up. Unfortunately, Despite my best efforts, I am not yet immortal. Sadly, That was 401 years ago, And I was not alive yet.

"When Jim Crow laws were put into place"
Read previous.

"When Civil Rights started in the 1950s"
Well, We're getting close, But sadly, I was still not alive. Regardless, I still would've stood up.

"So now in 2020, you can't stand up and say "Yeah. I think Black people matter." "
I'll say it again, Yes. I think black people matter. I'm absolutely all for standing on a corner protesting.
But I won't shut down a highway quite possibly full of people who are in agreement with me and have done nothing wrong. The problem with a movement this large, Is there are always bad apples who twist and distort its message to their own ends. Of course this isn't the majority, But they are there.

"Well, history is pretty clear."
Indeed. Nothing to add here.

"But sitting in neutrality is comfortable."
Read second.

"Maybe you think this is just a stupid fan site, so it doesn't matter. But if not here, behind your anonymity, then when?"
I do not think this is a "stupid fan site", And I do believe it matters. And, To quote something I said to Burn,
"I'm always one for a civil conversation about things like this."

"Think about your favorite characters. Not just from Transformers, but from any and all mediums. Think about what they would do."
I have. I don't know if you're familiar with classic X-Men, But I think this is a good analogy. I want to be Charles Xavier here, Not Max Eisenhardt.

No, it wasn't addressed to you. I posted it as a general comment. Thanks for making it about you and trying to devalue the points.

Also, interesting choice, Xavier. The man who trained children to go and fight battles to protect humans and mutants. But that's cool. You don't want to fight.

Absolute Zero wrote:

WonkoTheSane42 wrote:Not sure if this post is addressed to me, But I was the last one to post, So if it wasn't addressed to me, Just ignore the following response.
I'll start from the top of the post, And work my way down.
-
"When asked if you believe black people matter"
Of course black people matter. I've never said they don't, And I'll never say they don't.
Some of my friends and favorite people are black. Of course their lives matter.

"When your stance is neutral though"
Not sure if you've read my post on page 6 of this thread, But I am not neutral. As I told Burn, I'm simply not looking for a fight.
Yes black peoples lives have value, And they should be (I always have) treated as equals.

"When the first slaves arrived in America in 1619"
I would have stood up. Unfortunately, Despite my best efforts, I am not yet immortal. Sadly, That was 401 years ago, And I was not alive yet.

"When Jim Crow laws were put into place"
Read previous.

"When Civil Rights started in the 1950s"
Well, We're getting close, But sadly, I was still not alive. Regardless, I still would've stood up.

"So now in 2020, you can't stand up and say "Yeah. I think Black people matter." "
I'll say it again, Yes. I think black people matter. I'm absolutely all for standing on a corner protesting.
But I won't shut down a highway quite possibly full of people who are in agreement with me and have done nothing wrong. The problem with a movement this large, Is there are always bad apples who twist and distort its message to their own ends. Of course this isn't the majority, But they are there.

"Well, history is pretty clear."
Indeed. Nothing to add here.

"But sitting in neutrality is comfortable."
Read second.

"Maybe you think this is just a stupid fan site, so it doesn't matter. But if not here, behind your anonymity, then when?"
I do not think this is a "stupid fan site", And I do believe it matters. And, To quote something I said to Burn,
"I'm always one for a civil conversation about things like this."

"Think about your favorite characters. Not just from Transformers, but from any and all mediums. Think about what they would do."
I have. I don't know if you're familiar with classic X-Men, But I think this is a good analogy. I want to be Charles Xavier here, Not Max Eisenhardt.

No, it wasn't addressed to you. I posted it as a general comment. Thanks for making it about you and trying to devalue the points.

Sorry if you think I was trying to devalue anything, Really. I was just trying to civilly state my feelings.

Also, interesting choice, Xavier. The man who trained children to go and fight battles to protect humans and mutants. But that's cool. You don't want to fight.

Not sure if you know but.. Xavier was paraplegic, And trained kids to protect a society that ultimately didn't even want them; In the hopes of realizing a future where you are not judged for your appearance, But rather your actions.

But that's cool. You don't want to fight.

Maybe your right. Maybe we should fight. As you said, History is clear. And throughout it, Violence has solved everything.

WonkoTheSane42 wrote:Not sure if you know but.. Xavier was paraplegic, And trained kids to protect a society that ultimately didn't even want them; In the hopes of realizing a future where you are not judged for your appearance, But rather your actions.

But that's cool. You don't want to fight.

Maybe your right. Maybe we should fight. As you said, History is clear. And throughout it, Violence has solved everything.

Depending on who was writing Xavier was if he was a paraplegic, but he still had the strongest telepathic mind and was quite involved in some of the early X-Men missions. I seem to recall him even supposedly dying on 5 points that I am aware of.

Funny, violence is how America was founded. Or did you miss the American Revolution which was preceded by a bunch of looters destroying property in the Boston Harbor?

Absolute Zero wrote: Funny, violence is how America was founded. Or did you miss the American Revolution which was preceded by a bunch of looters destroying property in the Boston Harbor?

Since you're just going to knock down strawmen, I will too.
I did indeed miss the American revolution, As I wasn't alive.

WonkoTheSane42 wrote:

Absolute Zero wrote: Funny, violence is how America was founded. Or did you miss the American Revolution which was preceded by a bunch of looters destroying property in the Boston Harbor?

Since you're just going to knock down strawmen, I will too.
I did indeed miss the American revolution, As I wasn't alive.

Well, if you were, you'd have plenty of time to have earned a lot of money. And maybe some education. Because you obviously don't know what a strawman argument is.

Absolute Zero wrote:

WonkoTheSane42 wrote:

Absolute Zero wrote: Funny, violence is how America was founded. Or did you miss the American Revolution which was preceded by a bunch of looters destroying property in the Boston Harbor?

Since you're just going to knock down strawmen, I will too.
I did indeed miss the American revolution, As I wasn't alive.

Well, if you were, you'd have plenty of time to have earned a lot of money. And maybe some education. Because you obviously don't know what a strawman argument is.

I said violence solves nothing. You changed the subject to the American Revolution, Which is not the same thing.
Definition of a Strawman fallacy: "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument."
Yeah, Your statement was a strawman.
The following is the sort of thing would be Americans wanted to get away from, Copied from Wikipedia, Because I'm too lazy to write it out,

"To be hanged, drawn and quartered was a punishment in England used for men found guilty of high treason. The full punishment was made up of the following - the victim was:
Dragged, usually by a horse, on a wooden frame to the place where he was to be publicly put to death.
This is one possible meaning of drawn.
A more likely meaning of drawn is the removal of the inner organs.
Hanged by the neck for a short time or until almost dead.
Removed from hanging and placed on a table. Still alive, the victim was cut open in the abdomen and his intestines and sex organs removed (this is another meaning of drawn—see the reference to the Oxford English Dictionary below). The removed organs were burned in a flame, prepared close to the prisoner.
The victim's head was cut off, and the rest of the body hacked into four parts or quarters.
Typically, the five body parts (i.e. the four quarters of the body and the head) would be put on public display in different parts of the city." End Wikipedia quotation.
Corresponding link: https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han ... _quartered

Now then, When was the last time you saw someone drawn and quartered in the United States, Hmm?
This is not the same thing.

By the way, I'm done responding.
From the start, I've remained civil and constructive, And refrained from insults and condescension.
You have not.
I'm going to take the high road and just be done, Because I have no interest in childish insults.
I'm not going to call you uneducated, However, I will state I suspect you to be a troll.
Either way, Goodbye.
Have a nice life.

WonkoTheSane42 wrote:I said violence solves nothing. You changed the subject to the American Revolution, Which is not the same thing.

So what you're saying then is either the American Revolution solved nothing, or was not violent.

Your argument was violence solves nothing. I provided a literal case were violence solved something.

Would you like more? Perhaps the Scots rebellion against England for independence?

Wonko has opted to leave the discussion. Drop it and move on.

Psychopaths advocating and condoning violence aside, I just discovered this chanel:



So, more "far right extremists" I guess.

If advocating for non-violent solutions and personal responsibilities for your own actions, without following the dictats of a tribe is "far right", then I WILL wear the "far right" badge with honor.

White guilt is pointless. Check.
Not using a position of privilege to help is bad. Check.
#metoo did a lot of good. Check.
Don't simply make a post simply to make yourself feel good, get likes or virtue signal. Check check check.

We know.

High Command wrote:We know.

Too many don't. Especially the rich Hollywood type who live in a mansion surrounded by a 12' high wall in their gated community.

¯\_(⏓ヘ⏓)_/¯

-Kanrabat- wrote:

High Command wrote:We know.

Too many don't. Especially the rich Hollywood type who live in a mansion surrounded by a 12' high wall in their gated community.

¯\_(⏓ヘ⏓)_/¯

I don't think any of them post or visit this site ...

Burn wrote:

-Kanrabat- wrote:

High Command wrote:We know.

Too many don't. Especially the rich Hollywood type who live in a mansion surrounded by a 12' high wall in their gated community.

¯\_(⏓ヘ⏓)_/¯

I don't think any of them post or visit this site ...

Of course they don't but they are "influencers" and too many sheep hang on their word.
That last "I take responsibility" video was pure concentrated cringe and extremely condescending to any self-respecting black person.

-Kanrabat- wrote:they are "influencers" and too many sheep hang on their word.
.

The irony of this statement.

-Kanrabat- wrote:too many sheep hang on their word.

Oh please don't try telling us you're "woke" and not a "sheep".

Actually go right ahead and say it, people could enjoy a good laugh at your expense.

Burn wrote:

-Kanrabat- wrote:too many sheep hang on their word.

Oh please don't try telling us you're "woke" and not a "sheep".

Actually go right ahead and say it, people could enjoy a good laugh at your expense.

Unrelated more or less, but we do have a monument of woke.

https://www.comicsands.com/tom-cotton-o ... 71170.html

-Kanrabat- wrote:Psychopaths advocating and condoning violence aside,

I like you. You deserve a Rodimus star.

Seibertron wrote:This is MY form of protesting.

Lol, wow, so brave.

Welp, I hope someone has their mod wrath and mana untapped because this one has been coming for a while(Told you this thread would get me in trouble eventually)

Absolute Zero.

I've been following this every day and you have rubbed me the wrong way every time I see you. I didn't know what it was at first, I had to think a lot about it. It finally came to me the other day when I saw a post you made about the American revolution, the back and forth with Cliffjumper and something felt off. It didn't feel like someone trying to make an arguement or a stand, it felt like escalation. We've had a lot of that in this thread, so I let it go but it kept nagging at me. I finally got it though. I did a bit of research, because Gammon is a new word for me. I noticed that you editted your posts to that after you were warned against painting broad strokes against whites. So I dictionary'd it.

There are two definitions that I think are relevant. The first is the actual definition. A gammon is a ham, most often used to refer to Virginia hams. This one might be a bit reaching, but ham is always called the other white meat. So if you can't outright call people white and make your statement, you could just substitute that and call them white a different way.

The other, more direct definition comes from the British lexicon. It's a new one, gaining popularity in the 2010s to refer insultingly to white people that also tend to lean conservative. As I understand it also has ties back to the first definition, so while I might have been reaching before I learned this definition I'm not now. You're using gammon to insulting call people white. I could probably think of a few other names that would do the same thing but this post is going to be on the edge enough without giving the mods more ammunition.

Back to my original points, I've reviewed a lot of what you've said in this thread. You've made some good arguements, when it suited you, but the rest of the time, particularly against Kanrabat and Cliffjumper, well, lets look.

Absolute Zero wrote:Also for gammons to lose their shyte over.

Absolute Zero wrote:God damn gammons. They'll use whatever racist and bigoted argument including making things up to keep their knee on the neck of black people.

Absolute Zero wrote:I'm done with you. Reply if you want, but I'm done giving space to proven ignorant racists and bigots and wasting breath responding. You're not worth my time.

Absolute Zero wrote:I know you think black lives matter conditionally, I'm trying to get you past that point.

...

Please do not quote me again. I no longer wish to speak down to your level. If you do, I will be forced to ask if that constitutes harassment.

Absolute Zero wrote:But that's cool. You don't want to fight.

Absolute Zero wrote:Funny, violence is how America was founded. Or did you miss the American Revolution which was preceded by a bunch of looters destroying property in the Boston Harbor?

You have been insulting. You have been racist. You have been dismissive. You've been threatening. And I think given what I've seen, you've been looking for a fight. I understand that we have a policy on this site against targetting other members specificly but I think right now it needs to be done. Given everythng I've seen, you're being a bully. I want to say that you are, but I don't want to make assumptions. Maybe, just maybe, I've taken the wrong thing away here, and I want to leave room to be wrong here because I don't want to be right. But if I am, I think apologies are in order. We can disagree, we can argue, and we can debate with each other here and still keep it civil.

ShadowKatt wrote:The other, more direct definition comes from the British lexicon. It's a new one, gaining popularity in the 2010s to refer insultingly to white people that also tend to lean conservative. As I understand it also has ties back to the first definition, so while I might have been reaching before I learned this definition I'm not now. You're using gammon to insulting call people white. I could probably think of a few other names that would do the same thing but this post is going to be on the edge enough without giving the mods more ammunition.

Gammon is certainly a term of mockery but isn't against a race, rather the politics of people who have particularly nationalist views that they love to share with others.
The name comes from the particular shade of pink that old white men (who make up the overwhelming majority of this group in the UK) go when ranting about brexit and other right wing tropes or in faux outrage at being called out on something.
Not all white people are gammons, most gammons are white.

An example:
https://youtu.be/NfFrW4yDubc
Of the two white men in this very short video, one of them is a gammon the other is not.

High Command wrote:

ShadowKatt wrote:The other, more direct definition comes from the British lexicon. It's a new one, gaining popularity in the 2010s to refer insultingly to white people that also tend to lean conservative. As I understand it also has ties back to the first definition, so while I might have been reaching before I learned this definition I'm not now. You're using gammon to insulting call people white. I could probably think of a few other names that would do the same thing but this post is going to be on the edge enough without giving the mods more ammunition.

Gammon is certainly a term of mockery but isn't against a race, rather the politics of people who have particularly nationalist views that they love to share with others.
The name comes from the particular shade of pink that old white men (who make up the overwhelming majority of this group in the UK) go when ranting about brexit and other right wing tropes or in faux outrage at being called out on something.
Not all white people are gammons, most gammons are white.

An example:
https://youtu.be/NfFrW4yDubc
Of the two white men in this very short video, one of them is a gammon the other is not.

Hopefully you'll forgive me for not watching the video. I'm sure it makes a fine point but I got the definition from Dictionary.com ( https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gammon?s=t Definition Two) and Wikipedia, for what that's worth ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gammon_(insult) ). While I'm wary of using Wikipedia as a reference for anything, a cursory glance at the sources look reliable. Therefore while my point may lack nuance, as you pointed out, I believe it still stands.

ShadowKatt wrote:

High Command wrote:

ShadowKatt wrote:The other, more direct definition comes from the British lexicon. It's a new one, gaining popularity in the 2010s to refer insultingly to white people that also tend to lean conservative. As I understand it also has ties back to the first definition, so while I might have been reaching before I learned this definition I'm not now. You're using gammon to insulting call people white. I could probably think of a few other names that would do the same thing but this post is going to be on the edge enough without giving the mods more ammunition.

Gammon is certainly a term of mockery but isn't against a race, rather the politics of people who have particularly nationalist views that they love to share with others.
The name comes from the particular shade of pink that old white men (who make up the overwhelming majority of this group in the UK) go when ranting about brexit and other right wing tropes or in faux outrage at being called out on something.
Not all white people are gammons, most gammons are white.

An example:
https://youtu.be/NfFrW4yDubc
Of the two white men in this very short video, one of them is a gammon the other is not.

Hopefully you'll forgive me for not watching the video. I'm sure it makes a fine point but I got the definition from Dictionary.com ( https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gammon?s=t Definition Two) and Wikipedia, for what that's worth ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gammon_(insult) ). While I'm wary of using Wikipedia as a reference for anything, a cursory glance at the sources look reliable. Therefore while my point may lack nuance, as you pointed out, I believe it still stands.

The video makes no particularly good points at all besides showing a British politician getting very cross when it's pointed out to him that one of the main problems his nationalistic pet cause has is that it is very attractive to racists.

Ok let's put it another way, the term "white supremacist" is also a not racist term despite being based on a skin colour because it is describing an ideology not a race.
Note that I'm not saying that gammon means white supremacist.
Most gammons are not white supremacists, many white supremacists are gammon.

I find it funny that a British person is basically told their definition of a word from their lexicon doesn't matter. God I love America.