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JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:No no no no, Universe Hot Shot just won't do! Use the retooled/original Henkei mold instead, like with Dion.

Different tooling but same mold, JelZe.

Sabrblade wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:No no no no, Universe Hot Shot just won't do! Use the retooled/original Henkei mold instead, like with Dion.

Different tooling but same mold, JelZe.

I know, Sabrblade, hence me saying "retooled".

Here's a thought for a UT theme. Suppose it's post-Cybertron story that involves this guy.

After all, we just got a magazine story involving the Destructons, and have previously gotten a comic with Solarbot. No one's too obscure at this point.

Sabrblade wrote:Here's a thought for a UT theme. Suppose it's post-Cybertron story that involves this guy.

After all, we just got a magazine story involving the Destructons, and have previously gotten a comic with Solarbot. No one's too obscure at this point.

I know right, what an amazing character, peaks and troughs of his life story, it's just byautiful.

SW's SilverHammer wrote:I know right, what an amazing character, peaks and troughs of his life story, it's just byautiful.

Why do I get the feeling that if IDW or any other company instead of the Club decided to breathe life into this character you wouldn't be complaining?

Sabrblade wrote:

SW's SilverHammer wrote:I know right, what an amazing character, peaks and troughs of his life story, it's just byautiful.

Why do I get the feeling that if IDW or any other company instead of the Club decided to breathe life into this character you wouldn't be complaining?

Nah i'd still complain.

SW's SilverHammer wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

SW's SilverHammer wrote:I know right, what an amazing character, peaks and troughs of his life story, it's just byautiful.

Why do I get the feeling that if IDW or any other company instead of the Club decided to breathe life into this character you wouldn't be complaining?

Nah i'd still complain.

Then kindly explain to me what is wrong with writers taking undeveloped, untapped material that has yet to be explored and then breathing life into it to make it more substantial and potentially more worthwhile than the unappealing state of nothingness that it currently is?

I mean, is that not the same as when a writer creates something new from the ground up? (which happens all the time)

Sabrblade wrote:

SW's SilverHammer wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

SW's SilverHammer wrote:I know right, what an amazing character, peaks and troughs of his life story, it's just byautiful.

Why do I get the feeling that if IDW or any other company instead of the Club decided to breathe life into this character you wouldn't be complaining?

Nah i'd still complain.

Then kindly explain to me what is wrong with writers taking undeveloped, untapped material that has yet to be explored and then breathing life into it to make it more substantial and potentially more worthwhile than the unappealing state of nothingness that it currently is?

I mean, is that not the same as when a writer creates something new from the ground up? (which happens all the time)

Because it's dumb. Why should we care about a character with as deep and rich a history as one still frame, a passing mention, and about one sentence worth of character. Or an alternatively be wowed that the club has revived characters from Transformers in 3-D that about .01 percent of the transformers fandom liked or cared about before the club got a hold of them. At least when somebody creates a new character, they create their mythos from scratch, they create their unique character. When the club, "breathes life" as it were, the character is usually boiled down to:

"Hey, isn't it so awesome we pulled this character from a passing mention no one particularly remembers, and created an entire alternate universe around to justify it's existence, he's the most awesome super badass that was ever made ever, with at totally deep and tragic back-story that isn't contribed and about as well written as Tumblr TF Slash fiction."

I'm getting god damn Ferak flash backs.

Sabrblade wrote:Here's a thought for a UT theme. Suppose it's post-Cybertron story that involves this guy.

After all, we just got a magazine story involving the Destructons, and have previously gotten a comic with Solarbot. No one's too obscure at this point.

Not for you, anyway Too bad we don't have a proper Pterosaur mold to use (No Animated please), I'd have loved to see Ravenus.

EDIT: I just thought of one: Cybertron Brimstone in G1 Swoop colors, can be repurposed as Shattered Glass Swoop.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Here's a thought for a UT theme. Suppose it's post-Cybertron story that involves this guy.

After all, we just got a magazine story involving the Destructons, and have previously gotten a comic with Solarbot. No one's too obscure at this point.

Not for you, anyway Too bad we don't have a proper Pterosaur mold to use (No Animated please), I'd have loved to see Ravenus.

Now see, that idea I like.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:EDIT: I just thought of one: Cybertron Brimstone in G1 Swoop colors, can be repurposed as Shattered Glass Swoop.

SG Swoop is Cybertron Brimstone in Armada Ravenus colors.

Sabrblade wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:EDIT: I just thought of one: Cybertron Brimstone in G1 Swoop colors, can be repurposed as Shattered Glass Swoop.

SG Swoop is Cybertron Brimstone in Armada Ravenus colors.

Depends which Ravenus: that Transmetal Terrorsaur (which is more likely) or his G1-inspired body and colors:



I went with the latter, just because I can and offers (twisted) possibilities.

P.S. I know, technically it's his Diaclone deco, which was used for the G1 cartoon.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:EDIT: I just thought of one: Cybertron Brimstone in G1 Swoop colors, can be repurposed as Shattered Glass Swoop.

SG Swoop is Cybertron Brimstone in Armada Ravenus colors.

Depends which Ravenus: that Transmetal Terrorsaur (which is more likely) or his G1-inspired body and colors:



I went with the latter, just because I can and offers (twisted) possibilities.

P.S. I know, technically it's his Diaclone deco, which was used for the G1 cartoon.

I actually prefer the mutated colorscheme and look for the character. I actually really like that dark, dark, blue going on green.

Either way, he'd make a good proposal for a potential UT side story. We'd just need that mold to be available.

SW's SilverHammer wrote:Why should we care about a character with as deep and rich a history as one still frame, a passing mention, and about one sentence worth of character. Or an alternatively be wowed that the club has revived characters from Transformers in 3-D that about .01 percent of the transformers fandom liked or cared about before the club got a hold of them.

That's the main question to ask of any newly-developed TF character of any series, as it's the job of the writer to make them appealing to us and make us care about them. Regardless of whether it's the Club or IDW or anyone.

After all, before any cartoon or comic comes out, the toys themselves are a bunch of fictionless nobodies just like Initial T, and it's up to the fiction to make them appealing. Whether the fiction succeeds or fails is something that cannot be determined until after it comes out, and is largely an opinionated answer since some characters appeal to some people and not to others.

Currently, why should we care about Strongarm, or Sideswipe, or Fixit, Grimlock, or Steeljaw, or Underbite, or any of the new Decepticons, from the upcoming RID cartoon right now?

SW's SilverHammer wrote:At least when somebody creates a new character, they create their mythos from scratch, they create their unique character.

I fail to see how that doesn't apply to any of the examples I've listed. Solarbot had no mythos, so they created his backstory from scratch. The Destructons got a whole new mythos of their own created for them by the Club, since the comic they originally debuted in had next-to-no mythos for them of its own. Likewise, Initial T has no mythos, so any that the Club would write about would also be made from scratch.

The only things the above had before the Club got to them that newly-made characters don't have are names (or in the case of the Destructons, appearances).

SW's SilverHammer wrote:When the club, "breathes life" as it were, the character is usually boiled down to:

"Hey, isn't it so awesome we pulled this character from a passing mention no one particularly remembers, and created an entire alternate universe around to justify it's existence, he's the most awesome super badass that was ever made ever, with at totally deep and tragic back-story that isn't contribed and about as well written as Tumblr TF Slash fiction."

Looking at all the Club characters that even come close to that hyperbolic description, I count 2005 Ricochet and...

...


...

SW's SilverHammer wrote:I'm getting god damn Ferak flash backs.

They made Ferak into nuttier mechanical engineer than Wheeljack.

Sabrblade wrote:

SW's SilverHammer wrote:Why should we care about a character with as deep and rich a history as one still frame, a passing mention, and about one sentence worth of character. Or an alternatively be wowed that the club has revived characters from Transformers in 3-D that about .01 percent of the transformers fandom liked or cared about before the club got a hold of them.

That's the main question to ask of any newly-developed TF character of any series, as it's the job of the writer to make them appealing to us and make us care about them. Regardless of whether it's the Club or IDW or anyone.

After all, before any cartoon or comic comes out, the toys themselves are a bunch of fictionless nobodies just like Initial T, and it's up to the fiction to make them appealing. Whether the fiction succeeds or fails is something that cannot be determined until after it comes out, and is largely an opinionated answer since some characters appeal to some people and not to others.

SW's SilverHammer wrote:At least when somebody creates a new character, they create their mythos from scratch, they create their unique character.

I fail to see how that doesn't apply to any of the examples I've listed. Solarbot had no mythos, so they created his backstory from scratch. The Destructons got a whole new mythos of their own created for them by the Club, since the comic they originally debuted in had next-to-no mythos for them of its own. Likewise, Initial T has no mythos, so any that the Club would write about would also be made from scratch.

The only things the above had before the Club got to them that newly-made characters don't have are names (or in the case of the Destructons, appearances).

SW's SilverHammer wrote:When the club, "breathes life" as it were, the character is usually boiled down to:

"Hey, isn't it so awesome we pulled this character from a passing mention no one particularly remembers, and created an entire alternate universe around to justify it's existence, he's the most awesome super badass that was ever made ever, with at totally deep and tragic back-story that isn't contribed and about as well written as Tumblr TF Slash fiction."

Looking at all the Club characters that even come close to that hyperbolic description, I count 2005 Ricochet and...

...


...

SW's SilverHammer wrote:I'm getting god damn Ferak flash backs.

They made Ferak into nuttier mechanical engineer than Wheeljack.

Alright then i'm clearly wrong, go back to preaching Club fiction like it's the gospel, because it totally is. You've successfully converted me.

I edited my post when you posted yours.

SW's SilverHammer wrote:Alright then i'm clearly wrong, go back to preaching Club fiction like it's the gospel, because it totally is. You've successfully converted me.

That's not fair! I'm not in this to "win" or "be right". I don't want your defeat.

We'll care about Strongarm and Fixit because they'll appear in an entire season (probably multiple seasons) of a cartoon with multiple opportunities for characterization. Also, voice acting. Obscure characters the club uses often get a single issue comic, sometimes with only bit parts.

I'd prefer the Club just make entirely new characters than pull obscure one-offs from the ether. But that's just me.

Sabrblade wrote:

SW's SilverHammer wrote:Alright then i'm clearly wrong, go back to preaching Club fiction like it's the gospel, because it totally is. You've successfully converted me.

That's not fair! I'm not in this to "win" or "be right". I don't want your defeat.

Too bad, I brought it, set it down on the table, and opened it. Now where's my entire year of wings devoted to The Triumverate?

megatronus wrote:I'd prefer the Club just make entirely new characters

Every time they try that it rarely succeeds for them.

Interesting conversation here. I don't completely agree or completely disagree with anyone.

Sabrblade wrote:

megatronus wrote:I'd prefer the Club just make entirely new characters

Every time they try that it rarely succeeds for them.

This has a lot to do with the fiction. Their new characters are barely removed from the super obscure ones that get brought in. Flak and Ferak are both well and truly new characters. They both share names and some design inspirations from other things, sure, but why one is looked at, generally, as brand new and the other as an obscure LSotW homage is weird to me. The quality of the writing is one issue, which leads to...

SW's SilverHammer wrote:"Hey, isn't it so awesome we pulled this character from a passing mention no one particularly remembers, and created an entire alternate universe around to justify it's existence, he's the most awesome super badass that was ever made ever, with at totally deep and tragic back-story that isn't contribed and about as well written as Tumblr TF Slash fiction."

This is part of the problem, though it's not as bad as you make it sound imo. The problem is depth and stereotypes.

I'm going to pick on this year's set (Pirates vs Knights) because it's really easy.

Stuff done well:
- Generally, the toys themselves, with some notable QC problems but we'll ignore those because they don't make sense to worry about in the context of this one particular discussion.
- Many different characters with different traits.
- In a well-established Universe (Wings, right? Could be wrong here)
- Good mix of beloved characters and obscure ones

Now that I've been positive, here's my bitch fest about the stuff not done well, and it falls on the plight of the obscure characters they attempted, and failed, to get me to care about.

- Ferak and Tornado: They've done a decent job with Tornado's Facebook page in making him relevant, but it's convoluted, in my opinion of course, and it's on Facebook which not everyone has. Meaning, I have no idea about most of it. Ferak was cool in the comic for like a page? Then he's just background white noise.

- Alpha Trizer: Really? Cheetor merged with the spirit of Alpha Trion or some **** and got reformatted into magical lion guy? Who thought this was a good idea? This is patently dumb, but on a more objective level, it's lazy. Wanna make a new character today Jesse? Nah, let's just use Botanica magic to merge a couple other characters so they can be all wise, sagely, and catty.

- Ginrai: So he's the leader of the Knights. Aaaaand that's it. Nothing else of value was added to his character.

- Apelinq: No backstory to speak of and basically invincible. Well then. "Deep"

- Flareup and Flamewar: Set back female TF characters a decade. Flareup is happy and BUTT. Flamewar is cunning and BOOBS. I am not 11 years old anymore, and I doubt most of Funpub's target audience is either. Not only is this more lazy characterization, but it's borderline insulting and misogynistic.

There's also not much hope that I'll ever see these characters in the future. Looks like Shockaract, maybe, but there's not much to want to keep up investment in where the story goes. That, to me, is their big problem. Too many made up characters or attempts at "fleshing out" obscure ones, only to never see them again outside of maybe a cameo.

So, while I'm happy to see them take chances and put a little weight behind the obscure characters of the TF world, especially if it turns into a bad ass toy, I can get over it. Their track record, however, is not very good, at least not to me. They have too many universes, too many start and stop plots, and too many abandoned characters that it's way easier to look forward to something they do when it's based off an established character, because then I don't have to waste time learning about them. 3H's early 00's stories took place in a relatively consistent universe for many years. Sure, they didn't put out 30 toys a year either, but that's beside the point. My point is that you could get invested in something, because it was going to be important or show up again. When Fun Pub decides to do something new, I don't know whether or not to care, and sometimes I'm not made to care for years. Not good when trying to sell said 30 toys a year.

Obscure and interesting aren't mutually exclusive traits, just look at MTMTE right now. Some of the characters there are also brand spankin' new - Nautica is already downright beloved. This is because she's not a walking stereotype, is important to the plot, has great interaction with the other established characters, and we know she'll be around. I can't say that about Buttup and Boobwar.

tl;dr Read the damn post

That's a lot of stuff there, but your underlying point is very clear (and is something I allude to in my earlier post about Strongarm/Fixit): whatever they decide to do, build a new character or raise an obscure one, they have to do it thoughtfully and with a mind towards giving that character longevity within an ongoing narrative, beyond that years botcon theme or set. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nice post, Scotty. I'll only respond to a couple of things.

ScottyP wrote:Flak and Ferak are both well and truly new characters.

Nice Furmanism.

ScottyP wrote:- In a well-established Universe (Wings, right? Could be wrong here)

Yes. Wings Universe, far distant future.

ScottyP wrote:- Ferak and Tornado: They've done a decent job with Tornado's Facebook page in making him relevant, but it's convoluted, in my opinion of course,

How so? One's a typical 'Con punk and the other's an absent-minded gizmo-maker.

ScottyP wrote:and it's on Facebook which not everyone has. Meaning, I have no idea about most of it.

It's a free, open Facebook page that anyone can access. I don't have Facebook, but I read the whole thing (cuz I legitimately enjoyed the story).

ScottyP wrote:- Alpha Trizer: Really? Cheetor merged with the spirit of Alpha Trion or some **** and got reformatted into magical lion guy? Who thought this was a good idea? This is patently dumb, but on a more objective level, it's lazy. Wanna make a new character today Jesse? Nah, let's just use Botanica magic to merge a couple other characters so they can be all wise, sagely, and catty.

Would it have made any difference had it just been yet another plain old, ordinary iteration of Alpha Trion?

ScottyP wrote:- Ginrai: So he's the leader of the Knights. Aaaaand that's it. Nothing else of value was added to his character.

The Facebook also went into him, as did his toy bio.

ScottyP wrote:- Apelinq: No backstory to speak of and basically invincible. Well then. "Deep"

He's an existing character. His backstory was made known over a decade ago. And, he does have a bio.

ScottyP wrote:- Flareup and Flamewar: Set back female TF characters a decade. Flareup is happy and BUTT. Flamewar is cunning and BOOBS. I am not 11 years old anymore, and I doubt most of Funpub's target audience is either. Not only is this more lazy characterization, but it's borderline insulting and misogynistic.

I agree about the excessive focus of their bodies was unnecessary, but sadly there is a large part of the fandom that disagrees with us. But, like Apelinq, these two are also existing characters. And, again, they're backstories are in the bios.

Does no one read those? Cuz they're kind of important when it comes to TCC characters. They put their backgrounds in the bios so the fiction can focus on the here and now with them. Are people seriously expecting, like, IDW levels of storytelling here with rich lengthy multi-issue histories all crammed into a single issue? Every BotCon comic has advertise like 20 toys and put them all into a single issue that also has to tell a complete story with a beginning, middle, and end that makes some semblance of sense. They don't have the luxury of being able to go into everyone and everything across multiple years like IDW can with its many ongoings and mini-series and spotlights and etc. Cut them some slack when they gotta be doing so much with so little.

ScottyP wrote:There's also not much hope that I'll ever see these characters in the future. Looks like Shockaract, maybe, but there's not much to want to keep up investment in where the story goes. That, to me, is their big problem. Too many made up characters or attempts at "fleshing out" obscure ones, only to never see them again outside of maybe a cameo.

It's best to view each BotCon issue as a one-shot that's meant to be standalone on its own, regardless of whether it might happen to be tied to a larger story. And if it is, great, more opportunity for things to get further developed. But for those that cliffhanger their endings with no signs of a sequel, then it's no different from all those little "You decide what happens next!" stories that kids get to finish up with their toys and imaginations. To my knowledge, only one BotCon story has ever really gotten a sequel story and that was the 2013 Machine Wars one, whose sequel became an online comic instead of a print one.

megatronus wrote:That's a lot of stuff there, but your underlying point is very clear (and is something I allude to in my earlier post about Strongarm/Fixit): whatever they decide to do, build a new character or raise an obscure one, they have to do it thoughtfully and with a mind towards giving that character longevity within an ongoing narrative, beyond that years botcon theme or set. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Pretty much, yep


And Sabr, good retort, sir! I will also limit replies

Sabrblade wrote:Would it have made any difference had it just been yet another plain old, ordinary iteration of Alpha Trion?

I think it would have made more sense. I give an 'A' for effort on Alpha Trizer, but I feel like this is something a good editor would snuff out. I'm also not a fan of expanding the story of established characters in the way they did it here.

Sabrblade wrote:Does no one read those? Cuz they're kind of important when it comes to TCC characters. They put their backgrounds in the bios so the fiction can focus on the here and now with them. Are people seriously expecting, like, IDW levels of storytelling here with rich lengthy multi-issue histories all crammed into a single issue? Every BotCon comic has advertise like 20 toys and put them all into a single issue that also has to tell a complete story with a beginning, middle, and end that makes some semblance of sense. They don't have the luxury of being able to go into everyone and everything across multiple years like IDW can with its many ongoings and mini-series and spotlights and etc. Cut them some slack when they gotta be doing so much with so little.

I do give them some slack, otherwise I could have gone into probably triple the word count in my earlier post

I guess the bios just feel like filler to me. They say a lot without telling a lot, if that makes sense. They also seem to try really hard sometimes to make something grandiose. I'll use Apelinq since I have Timelines #10 on my desk right now, although this is operating under my assumption that their Apelinq is not the same as the 3H Apelinq. Here's a quote:

"Apelinq once believed the voice belonged to Vector Sigma or Primus himself"

I'll potentially care about him without him needing to be some mystical medium of deified characters. This, to me, is a waste of the bio's word count that could be used for something else. Like, "Apelinq uses his Transfer Interlink to create Cybernanas, which grant him super speed in battle for 30 nanocycles". Maybe not that exactly, because it's stupid, but something like that is more interesting to me. Tell me about him, not about how important he is. The story will take care of the latter part.

Sabrblade wrote:It's best to view each BotCon issue as a one-shot that's meant to be standalone on its own, regardless of whether it might happen to be tied to a larger story. And if it is, great, more opportunity for things to get further developed. But for those that cliffhanger their endings with no signs of a sequel, then it's no different from all those little "You decide what happens next!" stories that kids get to finish up with their toys and imaginations. To my knowledge, only one BotCon story has ever really gotten a sequel story and that was the 2013 Machine Wars one, whose sequel became an online comic instead of a print one.

I wish they would end comics with "You decide what happens next!" They don't though, it's almost always a cliffhanger that might hang for half a decade or indefinitely.

You bring up an interesting point on the print stories. I can't remember the last club mag that had one. Why not use their website for it? I guess the Tornado stuff kind of counts, but it's not traditional prose. That can be a great medium to flesh out details that don't fit elsewhere - since they're limited in how much comic material that can be done, it'd be great to see prose used more often to continue adventures and character building.

Back before their old site crashed and the old Members Only section was lost, I viewed the Club fiction like so:

• BotCon comics - one-offs that advertise the convention toys
• Magazine comics - Worldbuilding stories that can do whatever they want for fun.
• Text stories - the true meat of the Club fiction that dives deep into the heart of what they're trying to do with the above stories
• Whatever else - extra stories of varying relevance

But ever since the site crash, we haven't really had that third branch in effect, leaving it to the others to try and cover the back of that missing most important (substance-wise) branch. Those text stories were crucial to making things matter in the Club fiction, be they characters or events, as those stories could afford the space needed to really make something worthwhile, even as worthwhile as the more mainstream IDW comics could. But now that they're gone, the other branches have a much harder job on their hands.

The closest we've gotten back to having those text stories is Tornado's Facebook logs, which even came with the bonus of being free for anyone to read, rather than just Club members like most of the old text stories were.

ScottyP wrote:"Apelinq once believed the voice belonged to Vector Sigma or Primus himself"

Where is this quote from? I can't find it in the toy's bio, unless I'm looking at the wrong bio.