The Energon Pub

intellectual property needs to be protected. I dont care if some collector's want a cheap menasor, that does not override the tremendous work that goes into building a successful fiction.

a successful intellectual property takes years to develop and even more time to keep relevant. No amount of rationalization makes KO products anything but theft of that intellectual property.

instead of speaking from your own viewpoint, try to reverse roles. What rights does a creator have to his creation? How would a creator react to another entity siphoning profit from their hard work.

I hope Hastak does eventually find a way to abolish these, as no one's intellectual property should be stolen regardless of how popular it is. Gijoe, Thundercats and Ninja Turtles, the other heavy hitters in the 80s and early 90s have all lost a lot of steam, becoming less and less relevant to the mainstream.

We should be thrilled that Hasbro, Takara, Dreamwave, IDW, Marvel and all the other creatives that contribute to our favourite fiction do so with such passion. Transformers are alive and well due to them, and condoning theft of their work does not make any sense.

Sid Burn wrote:intellectual property needs to be protected. I dont care if some collector's want a cheap menasor, that does not override the tremendous work that goes into building a successful fiction.

I agree, but only to some extent. I.P. does need to be protected, but past a certain point, I'm not too sure it's as important as folks might think.

Plus I don't think Hasbro's all that interested in the story, but more the toys and making money off of them. I'd say IDW handles the story more than anyone at this point. (Well Bay and his crew, for the movies, but you get what I mean.) I'm sure Hasbro is more than willing to support the stories, because it helps sell toys, but let's face it: First things first: It's all about moving product for them. And that's fine, because toys make money, and usually without a story to go along with them. I mean, who wouldn't profit off of that? It's a genius idea, really. And I'd say it's served them well for quite some time.

Granted, I'll say that toys like TransFormers and Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers seem to fare better with a story in tow, but things like Star Wars, Spider-Man, seem to do okay without a show or current movie to help move them along. I'd say those are geared more towards collectors than kids, though. Still, a sale's a sale.

My point is, just like any other business Hasbro is worried about what's selling now. I don't think they have the time to look back.

And I should clarify one thing about all of my postings here: I was mainly speaking in reference to combiner molds only, not the Dinobots or G1 cars molds. I should've been a tad bit clearer on that.

But I still believe Hasbro's still at fault to some extent. More on that, in a moment.

Sid Burn wrote:a successful intellectual property takes years to develop and no amount of rationalization makes KO products anything but theft of that intellectual property.

But where do you draw the line? If it's a full on copy, I can see where you're coming from, I really can. But, what if it's a figure that's a mish mash of various designs? Take for example a G.I. Joe sized figure with various goofy accessories, and he has elements of a Power Ranger helmet (but it's not actually any of their original designs), and bits and pieces of his weapons look something like Galvatron's cannon. Obviously there are some homages in use, some of it you can see and say "Hahasha, that's just awful looking. I see where they were going with it." But let's face it, a figure of that design isn't affecting anyone's IP. So, would you block their right to make that figure? I mean, where do you draw the line?

Ooh.... another case in point: Happywell's Road Bots. Some people thought of them as Alternator knockoffs because Happywell used to be a bootlegger and KO maker, but they went legit with Road Bots, and some (not all) people still found them to be KOs.

Problem is, they weren't. They were brand new designs that no one else had. Would it be fair for someone to prevent them from producing the Road Bots line?

That's why I think there should be limitations on how this is handled.

Sid Burn wrote:instead of speaking from your own viewpoint, try to reverse the position and see what a creator's rights are to his creation.

I do, in fact. Here's the problem, I look at it from a logical standpoint rather than a seemingly emotional one.

I'm company Qwerty. I produce product A. I see that product A is no longer profitable and decide to move onto product B. I then sell off my factories and all of the molds inside, which are now the property of the people who bought them from me.

And now that it's 20+ years later and I've moved onto products X, Y, Z, and revisited product A with a 2.0 series using brand new designs and focus on the core audience of today's world...I most certainly look back fondly on what got me here today, but I'm more concerned with today's problems, I can't focus money and time on tracking down something that obviously isn't as important to me as it once was.

Otherwise I'd have never sold the molds that made me a goldmine. Or at least fought tooth and nail to reclaim them.

Company Asdfgh now mass produces items using the molds I sold them. They pack them in "classic" packaging to help them sell. Do I like them using the packaging designs, names, colors, etc? No. Can I stop them from producing product in the molds that I sold them? No. (Or at least I don't think so.)

It would be my fault for allowing them access to the molds and getting this whole thing started. If anything, I'd buy the molds back, I'd reverse engineer them, and cater to the audience that first made me what I am today.

But Hasbro hasn't done that, and I'm not sure they plan to, and I'll admit, it's probably not fiscally responsible for them to do so, but they must understand that there is a market for these specific items and because they didn't meet the demand, someone else will. And has. It's not currently cutting into Hasbro's profits, so without affecting them, they're not going to do squat about it.

I agree that it does hurt vintage collecting, and I'm sorry to see people who've been burned by it, but that doesn't affect Hasbro, or their bottom line.

Sales of legitimate items between collectors don't bolster or hurt their sales either. G1 just doesn't have any economical effect on them right now. Outside of TRU reissues.

I could see TakaraTomy being affected by these bootlegs, but they don't seem to be phased by it much either.

I still think it would've been far more sensible for these companies to keep these molds rather than sell them. I understand some were destroyed and pretty much useless, but the ones that did remain, should've remained HasTakTom property.

If I was them, it'd be my own fault for letting this happen.

I can't blame the fans for it.

Autobot032 wrote:

Sid Burn wrote:intellectual property needs to be protected.

I agree, but only to some extent. I.P. does need to be protected, but past a certain point, I'm not too sure it's as important as folks might think.

Autobot, I usually agree with your opinions, but in this case I have to agree with Blurrz, you dont know what you are talking about, at least in regards to your response to me.

I own a commercial illustration and concept design studio, that is how I make my living. I deal with intellectual properties everyday in film and advertising and let me assure you, there is nothing that makes it right to deliberately copy a trademarked intellectual property.

The amount of work that goes into designing a series like transformers is immense, absolutely immense. Transformers started with only 20 characters, and now has hundreds, these creations, the world they live in and the connections that make the entire fiction work takes years to produce, tweak and revise into something cohesive that may or may not strike a chord with the masses.

I really cannot explain the scope of keeping something like transformers relevant, suffice it to say Hasbro knows the value of the fiction. That is why they are involved in botcon, that is why they allow marvel, dreamwave and now IDW to add to the TF universe. That is why they have creatives like Michael Bay, Activision and High Moon studios generating content for them to approve and revise. Without the fiction, there is nothing to drive sales, nothing to draw people in on a mass scale.

your examples of spiderman and star wars are incorrect as both have current shows designed to push the sales of their current lines.

That being said, any company or person that has not been given permission to use an established fiction, and does so regardless is stealing from the owner of that fiction.

Not trying to flame you, just stating facts, we have laws that protect intellectual property for a reason. There is no amount of time that makes it alright, there is no popularity a fiction can attain to make it alright.

The only exception (in the case of transformers) is if hasbro ALLOWS it. They did not pour 25 + years into developing a successful and relevant property so that some jackass in china can start pumping out inferior copies without consent.

Sid Burn wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:

Sid Burn wrote:intellectual property needs to be protected.

I agree, but only to some extent. I.P. does need to be protected, but past a certain point, I'm not too sure it's as important as folks might think.

Autobot, I usually agree with your opinions, but in this case I have to agree with Blurrz, you dont know what you are talking about, at least in regards to your response to me.

I own a commercial illustration and concept design studio, that is how I make my living. I deal with intellectual properties everyday in film and advertising and let me assure you, there is nothing that makes it right to deliberately copy a trademarked intellectual property.

The amount of work that goes into designing a series like transformers is immense, absolutely immense. Transformers started with only 20 characters, and now has hundreds, these creations, the world they live in and the connections that make the entire fiction work takes years to produce, tweak and revise into something cohesive that may or may not strike a chord with the masses.

I really cannot explain the scope of keeping something like transformers relevant. Hasbro knows the value of the fiction, that is why they are involved in botcon, that is why they allow marvel, dreamwave and now IDW to add to the TF universe. Without the fiction, there is nothing to drive sales.


that being said, any current company that has not been given permission to use an established fiction to move product, and does so regardless is stealing from the owner of that fiction.

Not trying to flame you, just stating facts, we have laws that protect intellectual property for a reason. There is no amount of time that makes it alright, there is no popularity a fiction can attain to make it alright.

The only exception (in the case of transformers) is if hasbro ALLOWS it. They did not pour 25 + years into developing a successful and relevant property so that some jackass in china can start pumping out inferior copies without consent.

Beautiful. If there's anyone on this forum who understands your point, it's me. I'm with you all the way. Not trying to beat down anyone, either. Just the belief that it is ok to run with other peoples ideas and creations no matter the time that has elapsed. There is a point where IP enters the public domain, but this is not one of those cases.

HighPrime wrote: There is a point where IP enters the public domain, but this is not one of those cases.

correct, and often it is the creator who allows his ownership to lapse for various reasons.

quick example, I was involved in the redesign of a new mascot for a very well known chocolate company.

I allowed my creation to become property of this chocolate company for a monetary compensation we both agree to, if I was to start promoting this creation as my own, and sold chocolate with packaging that featured that mascot I would be sued in all likeliness. And rightly so as I do not own the property.

I can promote myself as the concept artist who designed it but I do not own it. and I certainly cannot profit from it past my initial compensation and whatever ongoing compensation I arranged with this corporation.

just because the TF KO manufacturers have slid into a gray area based on the laws where they live does not make it right. Just because Hasbro is a huge corporate entity does not make it right.

I dont mean to make my example so basic, not looking to insult anyone's intelligence but some posters seem to have trouble understanding ownership of this kind of property.

if you DO understand it and choose to ignore it, that is your decision, I personally choose to observe and respect that ownership. Especially since the TF property has given me years upon years of enjoyment.

Rated X wrote:If we dont pass on retro style toys to the younger generation at affordable prices, the hobby will die with us and those originals you cherish so much will decline in value like many other 80's collectibles with no fanbase.

First off. NO. NO. NO. and NO. As much as the real world isn't a nice place, I do not see the 45,000+ members on Seibertron.com quitting Transformers anytime soon.

There are a handful of your comments that seem to be based on little factual basis aka flawed, so I'm just going to generalize like you do. If you don't like Hasbro, why don't you just stop collecting Transformers? Huh? There's little more reason as to why Hasbro isn't releasing this kind of stuff, other than what you perceive them to be as 'greedy'.

Casts - This **** was made in the 1980's like you said. If the casts made for these were in perfect condition, yeah I'd bet that we'd be seeing more Encores and Reissues. That's not the case. I'm not entirely sure what the list is, but usable casts from the Generation One era is quite low. To make new ones, if it is even freaking possible, it costs money and time.

There Is No Greed - If Hasbro actually wanted to release Generation One Encores? You know how much money they would make? Don't even associate the word greed with Hasbro when you're talking about Generation One figures, simply because they aren't at retail anymore. The only people who are profiting are the fans who have owned previous Generation One figures and are selling them to the secondary market

Transformers Never Dies - Don't say it like me, you and Billy Joe are the only three remaining Transformers fans in the world. We aren't the Main buyers, sadly the Kids and Children are. Hasbro does somewhat acknowledge us collectors', it's their use of homages and Botcon. But at the end of the day, kids will always want toys, and that need of toys will always profit Hasbro the most. Last time I checked, kids are still being made, and us Hardcore collector's, well we are the dying breed. I know there are times when you state that FABs, or Robot Heroes, or Mighty Muggs and Plushies are stupid. But guess what, half of Hasbro's Transformers are not aimed at us, they're aimed for the kids!

Reasons as to why KO's are bad? Well there's a ton of them that have already been listed in the thread. I'll add one.

Premium - Even before I became a Transformers nut here on Seibertron.com, I knew that in order to buy Transformers from the 80's, I'd have to pay a price, that's just something you have to assume when something is Vintage. I know as time progresses, the value of those Vintage toys will increase. This is where KO's come in. Eventually those KO's will end up into the hands of someone Malicious. They want to take advantage of my knowledge that Generation One figures are expensive. The people who have been swindled into buying KO's, whether it be in the past or future, cannot accept KO's for what they are.

I hope you end up reading this, maybe you'll stop asking less redundant questions. Why am I in such a bad mood, why am I so serious about this? Well there's always a balance between work and play, but I am always dedicated and passionate about the things I enjoy. That's how things get done. When someone, maybe not you particularly, asks me why so serious, I'm going to tell them how I got these scars.

Blurrz wrote:I am always dedicated and passionate about the things I enjoy. That's how things get done. When someone, maybe not you particularly, asks me why so serious, I'm going to tell them how I got these scars. [/color]

nice, wonderfully said. We cant all be apathetic to a practice that hurts the hobby we enjoy. The idea that KO's are somehow helping the G1 markets and the ongoing success of TF as a brand is the most bizarre concept I have heard in this thread.

I have been scammed once before, on a cyclonus, which the seller cleverly packed in a beat up but authentic G1 box. The insert and fig itself was KO.
Since then I have educated myself on all the common KOs, took me a long time to find a mirage I was SURE was real, from a seller I trust. It stinks that we as collector's have to be cautious like this. I think TFs might be the worst as well, as I dont hear this kind of thing from Tcat collectors, or heman collectors.

Sid Burn wrote:

Blurrz wrote:I am always dedicated and passionate about the things I enjoy. That's how things get done. When someone, maybe not you particularly, asks me why so serious, I'm going to tell them how I got these scars. [/color]

nice, wonderfully said. We cant all be apathetic to a practice that hurts the hobby we enjoy. The idea that KO's are somehow helping the G1 markets and the ongoing success of TF as a brand is the most bizarre concept I have heard in this thread.

Really all the KO's do is make the the vintage market a lot more dubious. I'd be pretty upset if I bought a loose complete Menasor on Ebay only to find out the four limbs were authentic and Motermaster and his accessories were KO's. This happened to me when I was putting together my first Predaking. I bought Tantrum and Divebomb listed as loose but complete, but when they showed up only the actual figures were authentic, all the accessories including Divebomb's wings were from KO's. Of course the seller claimed to have no knowledge they were KO's, but I was able to produce quite a bit of evidence that they were and he gave me a partial refund. I also informed him that he had a Rampage listed that had the KO accessories, which he never removed or edited the description to let potential buyers know.

craggy wrote: and damaging Hasbro's good name

Wow, somebody actually typed that with a straight face. When it comes to Transformers, I'll bite the hand that feeds me all day long. How many figures are we excited about when we first hear about them only to be less than pleased about them when they finally come out because Hasbro butchered them somehow? How many people were stoked to finally get there hands on Animated Arcee only to have her thumbs break off after the first couple poses?

Don't get me wrong, Hasbro gets it right plenty of times too but by the same token, I've wasted my money on enough figures to consider myself even with Hasbro and I don't think I owe them a single dime of my money.

Clearly, there are some Liberals and some Conservatives here when it comes to the knock-off issue. I like to think of myself as "middle of the road". I understand how a potential collector could be duped into buying a knock-off when they are looking for the real thing. On the other hand, if a knock-off is sold with full discretion as a knock-off its less harmful.

The true G1 collectors should use caution when buying figures. Knock-off buyers and owners should be responsible with what they buy and re-sell. However, to say that Hasbro can't do anything about this issue is ridiculous in my opinion. If some little Transformers forum on the net could get wind of a knock-off coming out BEFORE it comes out, then so could Hasbro. I believe that Hasbro understands that knock-off products are not hurting them at all.

Yeah, all of the tree huggers could spout off about intellectual properties and such and they would be absolutely right. But the knock-offs are NOT hurting Hasbro. The companies who make the knock-offs are getting money from Hasbro's property, this is true, but they aren't costing Hasbro any money.

If anything, the knock-offs are keeping properties that Hasbro isn't doing anything with right now relevent. Hasbro is smart enough to know where they stand. And they know that if they wanted to put out a Menasor re-issue, everybody will come running and pay mint for an authentic Hasbro product. Their toys may be cheap and half-assed sometimes but Hasbro knows their fan base better than most give them credit for. Hasbro knows that only a small fraction of fans will tolerate knock-offs in their collection. They also know that a large percentage of the same fans who bought the knock-off will also buy a real version if it ever gets re-issued.

They ABSOLUTELY could do more about knock-offs getting released. It just isn't worth their time or their funds. Because in the grand scheme of things, Hasbro knows that the money that the knock-off company is getting for a Hasbro property is microscopic compared to what Hasbro would get for the same property if they chose to put it out on their own.

And if Hasbro isn't too bothered by such things, why should I be? My collection is for me and nobody else. If I feel so inclined to add a knock-off to my collection, I will do so with little regard to how such a move would make the "real" collectors out there feel. "Real" collectors should educate themselves better and use caution in what they buy. A) thats what a hobby is all about and B) its not like rip-off products are new in the world or are only limited to Transformers. Using caution when buying things online or sight-unseen is true no matter what you are buying and when. There's a reason
the phrase "buyer beware" exists.

In conclusion, I believe that there is a place in there world for knock-offs, as long as they are put out there under the right conditions. I absloutely DO NOT condone knock-offs being sold a legitimate versions under any circumstances. However, more often than not, thats the fault of the seller, not the knock-off manufacterer-er.

For the record, I do not own any knock-offs currently but I don't rule out the possibilty either. Especially if a real good knock-off of MP Megatron ever came out. The real MP Megatron is such a brittle piece of junk that I will never pay full price for it. But at a reduced knock-off price, if it breaks I wouldn't have to shed real tears over it.

Rated X wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:

Rated X wrote:I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I ask why such negativity on knock offs ???

Cause it's stealing? Your ok with people stealing Hasbro and Takara's intellectual property?

Cmon...

The molds are 25 years old. The people who invented them are probally in a wheelchair. And Im sure the rights have been sold off so many times that the inventors probally dont even know the names of the people who currently own them. With all due respect, stop worrying about the corporate machine and think of the fans that made them rich...

That's like saying it's ok to steal the Mona Lisa because it is old. Also, I am thinking of the fans. I defend the company that made us fans. Without them there would be no new figures.

What bothers me the most is how people who claim to be collectors do not have the moral fortitude to stand up for the company that creates the products that they like. If you really like Transformers, why not support Hasbro and Takara?

joesaysso wrote:

craggy wrote: and damaging Hasbro's good name

Wow, somebody actually typed that with a straight face. When it comes to Transformers, I'll bite the hand that feeds me all day long. How many figures are we excited about when we first hear about them only to be less than pleased about them when they finally come out because Hasbro butchered them somehow? How many people were stoked to finally get there hands on Animated Arcee only to have her thumbs break off after the first couple poses?

Don't get me wrong, Hasbro gets it right plenty of times too but by the same token, I've wasted my money on enough figures to consider myself even with Hasbro and I don't think I owe them a single dime of my money.

Clearly, there are some Liberals and some Conservatives here when it comes to the knock-off issue. I like to think of myself as "middle of the road". I understand how a potential collector could be duped into buying a knock-off when they are looking for the real thing. On the other hand, if a knock-off is sold with full discretion as a knock-off its less harmful.

The true G1 collectors should use caution when buying figures. Knock-off buyers and owners should be responsible with what they buy and re-sell. However, to say that Hasbro can't do anything about this issue is ridiculous in my opinion. If some little Transformers forum on the net could get wind of a knock-off coming out BEFORE it comes out, then so could Hasbro. I believe that Hasbro understands that knock-off products are not hurting them at all.

Yeah, all of the tree huggers could spout off about intellectual properties and such and they would be absolutely right. But the knock-offs are NOT hurting Hasbro. The companies who make the knock-offs are getting money from Hasbro's property, this is true, but they aren't costing Hasbro any money.

If anything, the knock-offs are keeping properties that Hasbro isn't doing anything with right now relevent. Hasbro is smart enough to know where they stand. And they know that if they wanted to put out a Menasor re-issue, everybody will come running and pay mint for an authentic Hasbro product. Their toys may be cheap and half-assed sometimes but Hasbro knows their fan base better than most give them credit for. Hasbro knows that only a small fraction of fans will tolerate knock-offs in their collection. They also know that a large percentage of the same fans who bought the knock-off will also buy a real version if it ever gets re-issued.

They ABSOLUTELY could do more about knock-offs getting released. It just isn't worth their time or their funds. Because in the grand scheme of things, Hasbro knows that the money that the knock-off company is getting for a Hasbro property is microscopic compared to what Hasbro would get for the same property if they chose to put it out on their own.

And if Hasbro isn't too bothered by such things, why should I be? My collection is for me and nobody else. If I feel so inclined to add a knock-off to my collection, I will do so with little regard to how such a move would make the "real" collectors out there feel. "Real" collectors should educate themselves better and use caution in what they buy. A) thats what a hobby is all about and B) its not like rip-off products are new in the world or are only limited to Transformers. Using caution when buying things online or sight-unseen is true no matter what you are buying and when. There's a reason
the phrase "buyer beware" exists.

In conclusion, I believe that there is a place in there world for knock-offs, as long as they are put out there under the right conditions. I absloutely DO NOT condone knock-offs being sold a legitimate versions under any circumstances. However, more often than not, thats the fault of the seller, not the knock-off manufacterer-er.

For the record, I do not own any knock-offs currently but I don't rule out the possibilty either. Especially if a real good knock-off of MP Megatron ever came out. The real MP Megatron is such a brittle piece of junk that I will never pay full price for it. But at a reduced knock-off price, if it breaks I wouldn't have to shed real tears over it.

I sounds like a broken record here...

Seems to me you clearly don't understand and missed the point completely. This is Hasbro's property, their invention, and their decision as to whether they want to issue product or not. No company has any business issuing product that makes use of Hasbro/TT's IP. For someone who claims to be a Transformer fan you should bad mouth the company that is responsible for all of this pretty harshly. For every bad figure you bought, there are 10+ reviews of it before it even touches your hand. You have every opportunity to become an informed consumer before you buy. So, your rationalization for KOs is that some TFs that Hasbro made break in your hands, so it's OK for another company to make them? Since you've no KOs, you've no knowledge that they are made with even more inferior materials. What will you do at the point? Clamour for a KO company to KO the KO companies?

I'm scratching me head attempting to understand why you collect TFs. Help me understand, please.

GetterDragun wrote:What bothers me the most is how people who claim to be collectors do not have the moral fortitude to stand up for the company that creates the products that they like. If you really like Transformers, why not support Hasbro and Takara?

Surprisingly there seem to be quite a few fans who love Transformers yet hate Hasbro/Takara, weird isn't it?

I hate Takara and Hasbro because they always keep me in the poor house because of their products

To end this fist fight.......Takara/Hasbro, if it is good for your bottom line.....re-issue all your G1 stuff (and all the naysayers, brick not articulated haters will start to bloveate as well about the quality and all that scrap)if not then tough............for all of us collectors.

That's it, finito! Now as for knock offs, they'll always be around if there's the demand. It's worst if someone will sell a K.O. as the real McCoy.......go hang 'em dry! If a well made K.O. is sold AS a K.O. to no detriment to the buyer as well...........then fine.

Again, no matter how much we rage against the machine the K.O. makers will continue making them...because it makes them a profit. Whether it's Gucci bags, Reebok shoes, etc.

Fact is, this KO Menasor probably isn't going to be released in the states anyway. Many will import it anyway, but that point is moot. It's being made by a company that has no legal requirement to respect IP because the country that the factory is in does not respect IP.

If an American Distributor decides they want to import and sell the KO's in America, then we run into the legality of respecting Hasbro's IP in a competing market. Even then though, It's ultimately up to Hasbro if they would want to file a grievance against such a company. We've had many KO's of other G1 figures (especially combiners) show up in toy aisles and to my knowledge, Hasbro hasn't lift a finger against them.

Perhaps, it's possible that Hasbro are actually happy about KO figures being available? Think about this, back in G1, what made Transformers special? My answer would be it's ability to distance itself from the competition quality-wise, mainly referring to Go-Bots. So I look at KO's as the modern-day Go-Bots. Cheap pieces of crap that kids will accept, but would honestly prefer a REAL Transformer in it's place.

Sure, $20 spent on KO's by Mom and Dad cuts into Hasbro's market-share right away, but after they break while the kid plays with them, what do they do? Replace it with a real one from Hasbro to cheer the kid up and like that, that $20 (and maybe more) missed before seemingly never happened.

I can't help but feel someone's missing a trick here. I mean, if you've got the molds, why not produce the colour colour variations lots of fans want, but can't have?

G2 Menasor.
G1 Autobot colours.

Even I would be severely tempted by an Autobot colours Menasor.

Amelie wrote:I can't help but feel someone's missing a trick here. I mean, if you've got the molds, why not produce the colour colour variations lots of fans want, but can't have?

because it is theft, please read the thread for an itemized list of all the issues concerning intellectual property rights.

last post on this, either you get it or you dont.

Sid Burn wrote:because it is theft, please read the thread for an itemized list of all the issues concerning intellectual property rights.

last post on this, either you get it or you dont.

*chuckles* - Didn't say it wasn't theft. In fact, if you had read my previous post, that would have been clear.

All I'm saying is, if you're going to "steal", why not produce something that hasn't been mass-produced in that form before? I was personally impressed at the knock-off Mirage in red and gold, for example. It's obviously a KO, and therefore one I can live with being on the market.

It's the ones in the correct colours masquerading as the real thing we need to worry about. Outrageous colour schemes are more of a novelty by comparison.

Okay guys, let's not do this again.

It's a divisive issue, so let's leave it. Any idiot can argue on the internet but it takes a strong person to say "Someone has a difference of opinion to me but maybe that's okay."

OK I'm going to lock this thread while we can#t make it go away permanently I will at least lock it.

As I will lock all future news posts that warn you of new KOs.

So instead of discussing the newly announced KOs at hand and how to tell them apart form the real deal you'll just have the article.