The Energon Pub

The expected price for this set is between $70-85 I believe. (I read it earlier, hours and hours ago.)

That's much, much more affordable than some of the prices we've seen for the originals.

Now, with that out of the way, I think some of you are taking this way, way too seriously and you're bordering on abusive/trollish posting.

Some of you are being outright offensive with what you say, and all because of TOYS.

Some of you I agree with, some I disagree with, some of you I've agreed with in the past and have just lost my respect.

I understand the frustration of seeing people get ripped off with fakes, I understand being angry about paying full price and someone comes along and provides nearly (notice I said nearly) the same product for a fraction of what you paid.

I get all of that.

Here's the problem. Hasbro and TakaraTomy have done you the disservice. Not your fellow collector. While it doesn't exactly help matters when people buy bootlegs*, they are not causing the problem.

Hasbro and TakaraTomy are CREATING the problem by not giving us the combiners. They can reissue Convoy to the point I've lost count, in various packaging styles and schemes, but they can't reissue the combiners? No. That's a load of crap, and you and I both know it.

1.) The Bruticus Encore sold out fast in many places. It proved that there's a market for the combiners.

2.) Piranicon has been reissued twice (and now, possibly a third time), and he sold like hot cakes both times.

3.) Fans have been asking the companies to put these guys out for quite some time, and the answer is always "NO". (They give a lengthy, detailed response sometimes, but the gist is "NO".)

Well, there's a problem. You have the market for it, you have the demand, but no one's willing to make the product. Enter the bootleggers.

Here's something to think about...you blame the people buying the bootlegs for supporting this, but you too are helping to support this so called travesty. How? Because you're okay with taking "NO" for an answer and listening to Hasbro and TakaraTomy give us LAME ASS excuses as to why they aren't making these.

Not to mention, seeing what they gave us with an official Encore, was just pathetic. Mold warping, pieces not fitting right, etc. Even the bootleggers were able to produce sturdier and better looking bootlegs, recently.

So, you want your fellow collectors to overpay, you want to support HasTakTom giving us horribly made reissues, and you're willing to just take their excuses as the end all, be all of this issue?

No. Absolutely not. Not when a bootleg of equal or even just slightly lesser quality (I.E. a solid C-7.5-8.5 out of C-10) for much, much less than a used and abused 20 something is available.

Has everyone forgotten that this is supposed to be all in fun? Sure, the hobby can be expensive, but it's not supposed to be about the money. It's about having the toys. The toys were and are made for fun. They stand for fun. Even though it's big business, it doesn't have to be serious. Some of you folks taking this hard, just aren't having fun anymore. So really, what is the point?

I think it's great that you're purists (though I only agree with it to a certain extent), but I see now that you're not only taking it WAY too far, but you're starting to take it personally and making it personal and outright attacking your fellow fandomites.

That's ridiculous, it's crossing a line, and it's absolutely unnecessary.

If you want to be pure and keep your collection original, more power to you.

If your fellow collector wants to willingly buy a bootleg and save some money, more power to them.

If someone isn't bright enough to figure out that REMAKE means it's not ORIGINAL, then it's their fault they got rooked.

Anybody with common sense and simple reading ability can read the word remake and think "Oh, this is not an original from the 1980s. Okay. That explains why it's cheaper."

If you can't do that or you're not willing to, then it's your fault and you shouldn't blame anyone else for it.

This is absolutely ridiculous and downright offensive, and all because of toys. Some of you should be ashamed of what you said and how you said it. It was rude, cruel, and absolutely disgusting.

This reminds me of my experience playing Left4Dead today. I actually had people SCREAMING at me and other players about the purity of the game and being serious about it.

IT'S A FRIGGIN' VIDEO GAME! IT'S MEANT TO BE FUN! NOT SERIOUS BUSINESS!

Grown adults SCREAMING at each other over a video game!

And I'm seeing the same despicable actions taking place here.

You want to assign blame? You point those fingers at HasTak, and right in your own mirror. It's not just the people who buy them, you and the companies are to blame as well. And that, is fact.

*=(these are bootlegs, seeing as they're exact copies. New designs based off of original characters and wacky remolds are knock offs. It could be said that FansProject's stuff is knock off territory.)

If Takara has lost the molds I'd think it would be kinda cool to see them release the Land Bison set from their Brave series as Menasor. You'd be one figure short but it would look cool.

KO/bootlegs are always a hot button issue, and bring out strong opinions on both sides. The only KO's I've ever bought were for kitbashing and they ended up being of such low quality I ended up throwing them in the trash. Personally I don't really care one way or the other. The only thing I would worry about is the KO's being passed off as the real deal or having the KO's mixed in with the originals to make complete Menasors and sold as authentic.

Rated X wrote:I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I ask why such negativity on knock offs ???

I dont even own any knock offs, but I support them to the fullest. I own an original G1 Bruticus, Devastator, Piranahcon, and Abominus plus 3 of the Stunticons from the 80's. Instead of worrying about the value of them, Im supporting the ever growing transformers fanbase by endorsing knock offs. If we dont pass on retro style toys to the younger generation at affordable prices, the hobby will die with us and those originals you cherish so much will decline in value like many other 80's collectibles with no fanbase.

Plus, I never got to complete my Menasor in the 80's because I wasnt doing well in school and mom and dad wasnt buying no rewards for F's on the report card...LOL I can finally get my hands on him brand new !!!

So if you had a million dollar idea, it would be ok with you if I decided to market the same idea, call it the same idea, and be portrayed as the inventor of the idea which originally was yours? That's ok with you?

KOs are not going to keep to this hobby alive, nor do they perpuate the continuation of transformers. Simply more rationalization on the justification for the existance of KOs. If anything, KOs perform the exact opposite. They steal money from the creators, and devalue the originals. It staggers me the number of people who can't or don't want to believe that KOs are a cancer. These aren't products that are taking an existing idea and refining it or introducing new ones, they are out and out thieves leeching off of Hasbro/TT.

I collect transformers because I grew up with them, not to make money on them. If I want to make money, I invest in capital markets, my 401k, or simply work longer hours. Personally, I'd rather pass on decent values and a strong moral center to my children then the ideology that the theft of someone elses ideas and creations is justified if the price is right. That is what KOs are doing. I'm sure a bunch of guys in China aren't thinking, "Hey, the collectors of the world deserve a chance to own these transformers." They are in this for the money. Hasbro may be missing a opportunity, here, but that is their right. Transformers are their creation and they can release, re-release, or not release any product of thier design that they choose. They don't owe us anything except to be thankful we buy their product.

This has nothing to do with being pure, it is about the Transformers brand that belongs to Hasbro. No other company has the right morally or legally to sell a product under this banner.

HighPrime wrote:Blah blah blah

Here's the problem. Hasbro facilitated this by selling the factory and the molds years ago.

The buyers now own those molds and I'm sure they're entitled to use them. I agree they shouldn't be in TF packaging, but if I buy something, I'm going to use it.

Who wouldn't?

Hasbro and TakaraTomy should've done a much better job of keeping tabs on all of this instead of opening the wound themselves.

Autobot032 wrote:

HighPrime wrote:Blah blah blah

Here's the problem. Hasbro facilitated this by selling the factory and the molds years ago.

The buyers now own those molds and I'm sure they're entitled to use them. I agree they shouldn't be in TF packaging, but if I buy something, I'm going to use it.

Who wouldn't?

Hasbro and TakaraTomy should've done a much better job of keeping tabs on all of this instead of opening the wound themselves.

I wouldn't.

Hasbro didn't sell the rights to the designs, likeness, names, transformations, or anything related to transformers. All of those are copyrighted and owned by Hasbro. Yeah, they should have done a better job of locking up their stuff, but that doesn't give anyone the right to profit from it.

Look no further than the knucklehead who lost his iPhone in a bar, then someone found it, sold and profited from it, and now is under arrest for theft along with the purchaser of the stolen property. The right thing to do was to return the lost phone. Unfortunately, we need laws in place to help people distinguish between right and wrong.

Autobot032 wrote:

HighPrime wrote:Blah blah blah

Here's the problem. Hasbro facilitated this by selling the factory and the molds years ago.

The buyers now own those molds and I'm sure they're entitled to use them. I agree they shouldn't be in TF packaging, but if I buy something, I'm going to use it.

Who wouldn't?

Hasbro and TakaraTomy should've done a much better job of keeping tabs on all of this instead of opening the wound themselves.

Ah yes I remember this. To think there was a point in time not that long ago Hasbro believed they wouldn't make another Transformer.

HighPrime wrote:

Rated X wrote:I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I ask why such negativity on knock offs ???

I dont even own any knock offs, but I support them to the fullest. I own an original G1 Bruticus, Devastator, Piranahcon, and Abominus plus 3 of the Stunticons from the 80's. Instead of worrying about the value of them, Im supporting the ever growing transformers fanbase by endorsing knock offs. If we dont pass on retro style toys to the younger generation at affordable prices, the hobby will die with us and those originals you cherish so much will decline in value like many other 80's collectibles with no fanbase.

Plus, I never got to complete my Menasor in the 80's because I wasnt doing well in school and mom and dad wasnt buying no rewards for F's on the report card...LOL I can finally get my hands on him brand new !!!

So if you had a million dollar idea, it would be ok with you if I decided to market the same idea, call it the same idea, and be portrayed as the inventor of the idea which originally was yours? That's ok with you?

KOs are not going to keep to this hobby alive, nor do they perpuate the continuation of transformers. Simply more rationalization on the justification for the existance of KOs. If anything, KOs perform the exact opposite. They steal money from the creators, and devalue the originals. It staggers me the number of people who can't or don't want to believe that KOs are a cancer. These aren't products that are taking an existing idea and refining it or introducing new ones, they are out and out thieves leeching off of Hasbro/TT.

I collect transformers because I grew up with them, not to make money on them. If I want to make money, I invest in capital markets, my 401k, or simply work longer hours. Personally, I'd rather pass on decent values and a strong moral center to my children then the ideology that the theft of someone elses ideas and creations is justified if the price is right. That is what KOs are doing. I'm sure a bunch of guys in China aren't thinking, "Hey, the collectors of the world deserve a chance to own these transformers." They are in this for the money. Hasbro may be missing a opportunity, here, but that is their right. Transformers are their creation and they can release, re-release, or not release any product of thier design that they choose. They don't owe us anything except to be thankful we buy their product.

This has nothing to do with being pure, it is about the Transformers brand that belongs to Hasbro. No other company has the right morally or legally to sell a product under this banner.

I grew up with Transformers too. Thats why I collect them. And Im one of the lucky few who saved his whole G1 collection, weapons and all. However I see my collection (Both new and old figures) as really cool retro decor for a bachlor pad. My figures or not for my visitors to inspect with a magnafying glass for quality or authenticity. They are on display for my visitors to say "Oh s**t I used to have those when I was a kid, you got one bad ass collection !" Thats why I dont like the same old "buyers beware" introduction used to report knock offs. It is such a negative way to talk about something that many fans appreciate. And when negativity is dished out from the start, of course its gonna bring on more negativity from the opposing side. I always say in my comments: "I mean no disrespect to anyone" because some collectors seem to be so sensitive about their collections. It amazes me how some people are against you owning the same figures they own at a cheaper price, even if they live 1,000 miles away from you. Like if me owning a knock-off menasor is going to effect their collection in California. Im all the way in Miami, the bottom of the map. Cant we all just get along, meet up and have a few beers at Botcon, and get wasted and have a good time talking transformers ???

Rated X wrote:Cant we all just get along, meet up and have a few beers at Botcon, and get wasted and have a good time talking transformers ???

No.

Because it's easier to complain and it gives them something to do.

The level of negativity, in recent months, is astounding.

And that leads me to this next part:

I don't know if it's because our fellow collectors are growing older, too serious, or whatever, but this is getting ridiculous.

If you're losing joy in what you're doing, then what is the point?

A child looks at a TransFormer and says "AWESOME! LOOK WHAT IT CAN DO MOMMY!" and everything is right with his or her world.

We look at it and all we can do is complain, complain, complain.

I understand that we grow up, we all do, we have to, to some extent.

But this is ridiculous. They are TOYS. They are meant to be joyous, fun, playthings. They're meant to be silly, they're meant to entertain.

They are not meant to be a source of future income, an investment, "srs business", or anything of that nature.

You people ARE ruining it for the rest of us. Grown adults fighting over some bootlegs that are older than the children they were made for. Heck, these bootlegged figures are older than some of the people collecting them.

They are not making revenue for Hasbro or TakaraTomy because they are no longer important to them, and haven't been for over TWO DECADES. A decade is 10 years people, think about that for a second. Some people can have their entire lives change in the course of a single decade, not to mention two plus.

With no current plans to reissue them, no complaints from HasTakTom (at this very moment), and no one's being personally affected...there is absolutely no reason for everyone to get so enraged by the fact that these things exist.

I love TransFormers. I love the mythos. I find them to be fun, I find them to be enjoyable, and they let me be a kid at heart again, even if for a moment or two.

That's what these are all about. When you walk down the aisle of any toy department or TRU and you have a giant smile on your face just the same as the kid next to you, that should tell you "Wow. This is awesome. I'm 10 again. YES!"

The instant you look at the pegs and shelves and think "Hmm. That'll be worth a cool hundred in about five years, I better get two.", you've failed. Failed at having fun.

If it floats your boat to take this seriously and act like it's the end of the universe, then there's nothing I can do to stop you. You're entitled to that opinion, no matter how ridiculous it is.

But it also means we don't have to listen to you, after a while, and we might even shun you. And maybe we should. When you ruin it for the rest of us, it's just not right.

Hasbro's told us time and again that we play no important role in their business. They basically swat us with a thank you or two, here and there for our dedication, but first and foremost....their focus is KIDS.

Kids want goofy colors, lights, sounds, and things that look cool. That's what we fell in love with when we were kids. If we don't love that anymore, then we need to get out of this hobby and grow old and rot. Just like every other person who grew old, not grew up.

They are toys.

Why can't anyone just have fun anymore?

Autobot032 wrote:

Rated X wrote:Cant we all just get along, meet up and have a few beers at Botcon, and get wasted and have a good time talking transformers ???

No.

Because it's easier to complain and it gives them something to do.

The level of negativity, in recent months, is astounding.

And that leads me to this next part:

I don't know if it's because our fellow collectors are growing older, too serious, or whatever, but this is getting ridiculous.

If you're losing joy in what you're doing, then what is the point?

A child looks at a TransFormer and says "AWESOME! LOOK WHAT IT CAN DO MOMMY!" and everything is right with his or her world.

We look at it and all we can do is complain, complain, complain.

I understand that we grow up, we all do, we have to, to some extent.

But this is ridiculous. They are TOYS. They are meant to be joyous, fun, playthings. They're meant to be silly, they're meant to entertain.

They are not meant to be a source of future income, an investment, "srs business", or anything of that nature.

You people ARE ruining it for the rest of us. Grown adults fighting over some bootlegs that are older than the children they were made for. Heck, these bootlegged figures are older than some of the people collecting them.

They are not making revenue for Hasbro or TakaraTomy because they are no longer important to them, and haven't been for over TWO DECADES. A decade is 10 years people, think about that for a second. Some people can have their entire lives change in the course of a single decade, not to mention two plus.

With no current plans to reissue them, no complaints from HasTakTom (at this very moment), and no one's being personally affected...there is absolutely no reason for everyone to get so enraged by the fact that these things exist.

I love TransFormers. I love the mythos. I find them to be fun, I find them to be enjoyable, and they let me be a kid at heart again, even if for a moment or two.

That's what these are all about. When you walk down the aisle of any toy department or TRU and you have a giant smile on your face just the same as the kid next to you, that should tell you "Wow. This is awesome. I'm 10 again. YES!"

The instant you look at the pegs and shelves and think "Hmm. That'll be worth a cool hundred in about five years, I better get two.", you've failed. Failed at having fun.

If it floats your boat to take this seriously and act like it's the end of the universe, then there's nothing I can do to stop you. You're entitled to that opinion, no matter how ridiculous it is.

But it also means we don't have to listen to you, after a while, and we might even shun you. And maybe we should. When you ruin it for the rest of us, it's just not right.

Hasbro's told us time and again that we play no important role in their business. They basically swat us with a thank you or two, here and there for our dedication, but first and foremost....their focus is KIDS.

Kids want goofy colors, lights, sounds, and things that look cool. That's what we fell in love with when we were kids. If we don't love that anymore, then we need to get out of this hobby and grow old and rot. Just like every other person who grew old, not grew up.

They are toys.

Why can't anyone just have fun anymore?

I agree with you homie...

Now I do my share of complaining too, but about 80 percent of it is complaining about the complainers. When I was ten there were certain figures I thought were stupid looking and I made fun of them. Needless to say I do the same thing with new figures I think look stupid. But I never stop having fun in the process. I enjoy collecting. I agree that some collectors are just getting too old. Kind of like that grumpy old man who wont sell you that classic car rotting in his backyard, but he refuses to restore it either.

I find t hypocritical that the same people who consider knock offs "stealing" are willing to buy 3rd party products that are a blatant stolen idea. It's like if I stole your face and renamed it PE-01, Warbot Defender, or TRNS-01 - Valkyrie to avoid copyright enfringment. No matter how you sugarcoat the name, some poor cartoon artist isnt getting paid for his work. But he collected his paycheck 20 years ago. And if he isnt complaining, why should you ??? The same thing should be said for knock-offs. If Hasbro/Takara isnt looking to sue the bootleggers in a court of international law, why should anyone appoint themselves as the Transformers police ???

Does Lamborghini sue the company that makes body kits for the Pontiac Fiero ??? Heck no !!! And alot of really cute chicks love the attention they get riding in it even if you tell them its a replica. Is anyone getting my point here ???

Ill say it once again, I mean no disrespect to anyone. But I feel this point needed to be made. A few weeks back I saw the board removed a thread about the upcoming Generations Thrust. It appeared to have some heated comments on it that I read at work, but when I got home and logged in to post, it was mysteriously gone. However, they left the thread above it for the upcoming Generations Drift. Is the Botcon/Henkei Thrust contraversy that bad to actually remove a thread ??? I was shocked...

Rated X wrote:Now I do my share of complaining too, but about 80 percent of it is complaining about the complainers. When I was ten their were certain figures I thought were stupid looking and I made fun of them. Needless to say I do the same thing with new figures I think look stupid. But I never stop having fun in the process. I enjoy colleting. I agree that some collectors are just getting too old. Kind of like that grumpy old man who wont sell you that classic car rotting in his backyard, but refuses to restore it either.

Oh I complain in the same manner. We have that right, but it does tend to go overboard. And I like your analogy for the simple fact that I can hear the bones creakin' on these folks losin' it over some toys.

Rated X wrote:why should anyone appoint themselves as the Transformers police ???

Negativity + something to do = ruined for the rest of us.

Rated X wrote:Is the Botcon/Henkei Thrust contraversy that bad to actually remove a thread ??? I was shocked...

Sadly, yes. However, their complaints for that figure make much, much more sense than what's been said here. When Hasbro and FunPublications charge you an arm and a leg for a set of figures, then TakaraTomy does basically the same thing, but for a lot less, and then Hasbro comes back around and gives you pretty much the same figure (though I've debated that...) for only $10.00, I can understand why folks would be upset about that. That sounds reasonable.

Complaining about bootlegs of 20+ year old toys that the companies and today's kids don't even give a crap about?

Ridiculous.

I don't like knock-offs, and the reason is perfectly simple. Vintage. I'm not being "elitist" nor do I think that Hasbro\Takara are being particually damaged by the knock-off market. I am primarily a vintage collector - I like the idea of a toy that has survived many years of being played with, left in a garage and thankfully not thrown away. It has a bit of history to it, and for me that adds to the fun of collecting - was it a bargain? how worn is the chrome? tight joints? Fun.

I don't like knock-offs simply because they've severely damaged the vintage collecting market. Having been stung a couple of times in the past with a loose knock-off, I have become ever more weary of buying vintage online. It's upsetting to buy a figure you thought was something it isn't, to have it produce stress-marks on the first transformation you give it and, very quickly, fall to pieces. Vintage collecting has become something of a dangerous affair these days, with lots of loose\boxed crap being honked as genuine. When Takara and Hasbro sell reiusses, you can usually tell which is the vintage and which is the reissue, even out of the box. With knock-offs, you can't just from a photo - they're bootlegs designed to deceive you into parting with your hard-earnt cash.

Saying "I want an original Leo Kaiser but can't afford it, so I want a knock-off" (BTW - I also can't afford many G1 TFs, but I just put up with it) is all well and good, but consider the frustration of those that have bought these frightful, poorly-produced, pieces of junk thinking they'd got the geniune deal.

Amelie wrote:I don't like knock-offs, and the reason is perfectly simple. Vintage. I'm not being "elitist" nor do I think that Hasbro\Takara are being particually damaged by the knock-off market.

Nice to see someone on that side of the argument approach this subject with respect for her fellow collector and still have a differing viewpoint that's reasonable and understandable.

+1 respect point.

Amelie wrote:Having been stung a couple of times in the past with a loose knock-off, I have become ever more weary of buying vintage online. It's upsetting to buy a figure you thought was something it isn't, to have it produce stress-marks on the first transformation you give it and, very quickly, fall to pieces.With knock-offs, you can't just from a photo - they're bootlegs designed to deceive you into parting with your hard-earnt cash.

I'm sorry to hear that you were deceived and taken for I ride. I mean that sincerely.

I would like to point out legit figure examples that have stress marks, because they aren't perfect either:

Classics/Henkei Rodimus: chest hinge, shoulder socket cup. (hinge is known for breaking.)

Animated Wreck-Gar: shoulders held in by vertical pins, transformation causes stress marks.

Masterpiece Starscream (Japanese or American): wing hinges, with reports of full breakage.

To name but a few. Now, I have owned bootlegs that were downright terrible, but I also owned some that were quite sturdy and rather impressive. One plus to bootleg figures is that you expect some issues and sometimes end up pleasantly surprised. It really bothers me when I open a Hasbro or TakTom figure that's stress markeded, or rushed. (Early ROTF figures are excellent examples of rush jobs.)

Amelie wrote:Saying "I want an original Leo Kaiser but can't afford it, so I want a knock-off" (BTW - I also can't afford many G1 TFs, but I just put up with it) is all well and good, but consider the frustration of those that have bought these frightful, poorly-produced, pieces of junk thinking they'd got the geniune deal.

Indeed I do consider their frustrations, but when they tell people they're wrong for collecting how they want, and that it must be their way (which is what they're saying) is just not true, and it's unfair for them to try and force it on us.

I commend you for sharing your point of view without crossing the line as others have, plus your post had excellent points that are hard to disagree with. (i.e. you kept a rational mind and used common sense when saying your piece)

+1 extra respect point.

Now, if only there were more of you. *sighs*

I like certain types of KOs, the utterly weird and kinda cool ones, like ROTF Animated Starscream.

Or KOs that improve the original toy, like KO Overlord with Starsaber head and shoulders who is of a higher quality than the original HasTak stuff, plus he looks sweet.

I do however dislike KOs like these here that imitate the original toy exactly and are sometimes used to be passed off as the original, remember that time BBTS got screwed over by one of their suppliers, when they where given the KO Metroplex instead of the originals?

Dead Metal,
BBTS wasn't the supplier that was screwed over by KOs. That honor belonged to TFsource. They still have some instock, even.

Rated X/Autobot032,

Imagine I'm smiling as you read this. I don't want either of you to think I'm angry. The whole point of these boards is to carry on discussions, whether we agree or not. We're not claiming either of our beliefs in KO collecting is right/wrong. What I'm talking about is theft of intellectual property and then selling it as your own.

Both of you have contradicted yourselves and provided more than enough evidence damning KOs, even though that doesn't seem to be your intentions. This isn't about sapping fun from your collecting. It's not about anger, either It's not about purity of collecting. I'm not sure anyone is angry here, but looks like disagreement is being perceived as an attack on people's rights to buy KOs. No one cares about your bachelor's pads or whether any of us believe future generations are going to suffer because a 1986 toy is not available for them to marvel at. No one is entitled to these toys, either. Just because we want something doesn't give anyone the right to take it. Call a spade a spade. These KO companies are duplicating Hasbro/TTs hard work, ingenuity, and product, and then claiming it as their own. That is theft. That's what this about. No matter how many ways this is rationalized, that doesn't make theft ok. It just helps the person buying or selling these things cope with their reasoning that in the end, no one is being hurt. Let's ignore the fact that none of these companies have to meet quality and safety regulations which give them another leg up when stealing other people's work.

There's a difference between companies like FansProject and companies like Zhong Jin, and to a great extent, iGear. Fansproject doesn't use any of the names, none of the transformations are the same, and none of the likenesses are exact. We all know what figure warbot is supposed to be, but that is simply because we have background on the TF universe. FansProject helps us to imagine this. Fansproject proves that you can make a product people want without stealing. Additionally, Hasbro doesn't have a lock on converting robots. What they do have, though is a lock on a figure called Sunstreaker, his robot mode, vehicle mode, transformation, and its use under the Transformers label. Changing the color or size doesn't change this right. What the KO companies should be doing is licensing product from Hasbro. The Transformers club does this to great success. Even Hasbro licensed product; G1 Jetfire for example. They didn't go out and steal it and then slap a TF label on it. Of course, we all know Hasbro won't issue licenses to the KO companies.

Also, you guys mentioned that the KO makers are using molds that Hasbro/TT don't care about or no longer use. Let's disprove that right now. Prowl, Red Alert, Optimus Prime, Encore Metroplex, Binaltech Wheeljack, and Henkei Skywarp are all molds used within the past 5 years. The list can go on and on. Hasbro/TT spent a lot of money designing these only to have another 'company' make the exact product. How can the theft of someone's labor and product ever be justified as 'OK?'

Bringing the point home, these companies are thieves. They took what others have done and claimed it as their own.


Look, I'm still smiling.

I'm pretty certain BBTS recalled a shipment of Encore Metroplexes due to them being KOs, just like TFSource, I think I even newsed that message back then.

Dead Metal wrote:I'm pretty certain BBTS recalled a shipment of Encore Metroplexes due to them being KOs, just like TFSource, I think I even newsed that message back then.

For your reference
BBTS official statement on KO Metroplex
http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/ ... lex/14804/

You did news this, though

HighPrime wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:I'm pretty certain BBTS recalled a shipment of Encore Metroplexes due to them being KOs, just like TFSource, I think I even newsed that message back then.

For your reference
BBTS official statement on KO Metroplex
http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/ ... lex/14804/

You did news this, though

Lol got confused there, then the other store must have been Ages 3 and up. Oh well I can always be right.

Dead Metal wrote:

HighPrime wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:I'm pretty certain BBTS recalled a shipment of Encore Metroplexes due to them being KOs, just like TFSource, I think I even newsed that message back then.

For your reference
BBTS official statement on KO Metroplex
http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/ ... lex/14804/

You did news this, though

Lol got confused there, then the other store must have been Ages 3 and up. Oh well I can always be right.

I'd say your percentages around .999, though

Hot button issue, these KOs. Here's what it all boils down to every time. "I'm right!" "No, I am". When the truth is, who cares? It's like having a buddy who's reeeeally into something you might find ridiculous or slightly disturbing and how they've finally landed this great new piece. What should you do? I dunno about you but I'd say congrats on your awesome new find! It isn't my thing but it makes YOU happy. That's cool to me. See at this point, nobody is losing anything here. Hasbro and Takara aren't bringing these guys out. Know why? They don't have the molds. Even if they did, they'd most likely require serious, expensive retooling for an uncertain sales return. Could they backwards engineer new molds for G1 and so on? Sure, but it's prohibitively expensive. So much, that unless it has a guaranteed audience, like Soundwave, it's probably not happening. What I don't get is why people get so up in arms over others buying these. You shouldn't care. You should be going about your own collecting nature instead of ranting on about something that has been a constant in the brand since its very inception. It won't ever change, despite your morality, or how much you disagree with the product.

Flux Convoy wrote:Hot button issue, these KOs. Here's what it all boils down to every time. "I'm right!" "No, I am". When the truth is, who cares? It's like having a buddy who's reeeeally into something you might find ridiculous or slightly disturbing and how they've finally landed this great new piece. What should you do? I dunno about you but I'd say congrats on your awesome new find! It isn't my thing but it makes YOU happy. That's cool to me. See at this point, nobody is losing anything here. Hasbro and Takara aren't bringing these guys out. Know why? They don't have the molds. Even if they did, they'd most likely require serious, expensive retooling for an uncertain sales return. Could they backwards engineer new molds for G1 and so on? Sure, but it's prohibitively expensive. So much, that unless it has a guaranteed audience, like Soundwave, it's probably not happening. What I don't get is why people get so up in arms over others buying these. You shouldn't care. You should be going about your own collecting nature instead of ranting on about something that has been a constant in the brand since its very inception. It won't ever change, despite your morality, or how much you disagree with the product.

I'm not up in arms in people buying these things. I think discussions can be had without ranting and raving. The point I'm making is that it's theft. It's not a question of who's right and who's wrong, or which side your on. It doesn't appear there's a lot of people who share my belief that taking something from someone is wrong. Or perhaps, there's a belief that some levels of copying the work and ingenuity of others and passing it off as you own is OK, but other forms of theft; that's wrong.

Turning a blind eye to things doesn't make it better or right. Can you imagine people having this sort of mentality for other things that have gone on in the world since anyone can remember... "Ah the hell with it.. it's been going on forever.. what can I do to change it?" We're talking about toys, here, so I'm not taking any of this too seriously. Just making a point and providing lively conversation.

I'm no fool to believe that their won't always be KOs. Ultimately, it's Hasbro's decision whether they want to stop it or not. If people didn't buy KOs they wouldn't exist, however. That's what happens to product in the market when no one buys it. Anyway, the point of this thread was a warning "Beware of KO Menasor." I've noted it, and appreciate the heads up

I don't understand why reverse engineering a mold is supposedly so expensive. I'm fairly certain that Hasbro has stated in Q&A's that doing this is a piece of cake from a technical stand point. Heck, when I was in college I took a jewelery making class (don't laugh I needed the elective hours ) and one of the things we did was recast existing items. I recast some G1 Opimus Prime fists, and they turned out surprisingly decent. Now keep in mind we were using a primitive bare bones set-up and I got decent results, and to be honest I was one of the worst students in the class. Some of the other art major types in there were turning out really nice looking stuff. I'm sure had the professor brought in a G1 era toy and had the entire class work on it, they could have created a a new set of molds that would have made a passable reproduction. You can't tell me that a toy company with all that talent and all those resources can't do this in a economical fashion.

El Duque wrote:I don't understand why reverse engineering a mold is supposedly so expensive. I'm fairly certain that Hasbro has stated in Q&A's that doing this is a piece of cake from a technical stand point. Heck, when I was in college I took a jewelery making class (don't laugh I needed the elective hours ) and one of the things we did was recast existing items. I recast some G1 Opimus Prime fists, and they turned out surprisingly decent. Now keep in mind we were using a primitive bare bones set-up and I got decent results, and to be honest I was one of the worst students in the class. Some of the other art major types in there were turning out really nice looking stuff. I'm sure had the professor brought in a G1 era toy and had the entire class work on it, they could have created a a new set of molds that would have made a passable reproduction. You can't tell me that a toy company with all that talent and all those resources can't do this in a economical fashion.

I suspect one of the problems it that it seems to be hit and miss as to which re-releases sell well and which end up shelfwarmers. Usually it isn't children (as far as I know) buying the Encores and the TRUs, it's only adult collectors. It's possible that the risk/reward just doesn't work out in Hasbro's favour.

Or to put it another way, designing and making Universe Sunstreaker probably wound up cheaper and more profitable than retromolding the G1-one would have been.

I'll admit that certain figures would be no-brainers (eg. the Dinobots, Shockwave) but I can understand Hasbro's reasons for not going down that road.

Locked for a bit, while I determine exactly how much GREAT JUSTICE!!!(tm) will be delivered for the absolutely un-called for dickery.

We will return to your regularly scheduled bickering shortly.

Here's the deal...

On these topics that are prone to getting out of hand, I am completely sick of seeing arguments bolstered with ad hominem attacks.

Argue, make your case, show how the other side is wrong...

Get insulting and I'm not even going to explain why you're getting a board warning/suspension from now on.

No passing 'Go' and no $200. The only person you're allowed to openly insult on this board is me.

No further polite warnings or PMs encouraging good behavior.