xyl360 wrote:Fascinating discussion guys, you seem to have covered pretty much everything and did so without erupting in a flame war (something this topic tends to generate) .
I was considering something similar not long ago myself when purchasing some TF's on ebay. If I purchase an official Has/Tak product on ebay from an individual (not a store that sells on ebay, like ToyArena does), then hasn't Hasbro/Takara already received all of the profit that they will gain from the toy already when whoever the original purchaser of the figure was bought it at retail (be it the seller if they were the original purchaser, or whoever they may have bought it from), so when I pay an insane price for it, just because it's no longer available at retail, Has/Tak actually sees no profits from the money that I paid (I'm assuming the seller isn't writing any checks to Has/Tak as a "Thank you for making this figure so rare/currently unavailable so I could charge a lot for it.") so in such a scenario, what would be the difference between buying a KO/third party toy or a legit Has/Tak toy?
I can understand the difference from a collector's point of view if they're collecting for value (a real Has/Tak toy is worth more than a KO because it's the real deal etc.), but for a collector like myself, who doesn't keep anything MISB, displays my figures and plays with them, what's the difference?
xyl360 wrote:Is there any difference at all? Like I said, I understand a G1 collector getting upset that they paid an insane price for a KO that a seller was passing off as the real deal (something I don't like either because that's fraud), but from my point of view, I just want the figure represented in my collection, who manufactured it is irrelevant most of the time, especially if I missed the boat the first time around when Has/Tak actually released it (I bought a KO Henkei Ramjet for this very reason, and almost got a KO Henkei Rodimus until I found out Takara was doing a reissue).
All of those collectors that think that 3rd parties are so much better than KOs should keep one thing in mind. 3rd parties are not going to go up in value.
joesaysso wrote:The difference is, regardless of whether or not it is MISB, its still authentic. If you have to spend a lot of money to get the figure you want, would you rather come away from the situation with something authentic or not authentic. Which raises another good similarity between KOs and 3rd parties. Neither has any long term value. All of those collectors that think that 3rd parties are so much better than KOs should keep one thing in mind. 3rd parties are not going to go up in value. Essentially, they are being bought at their peak value. There price may go up initially after their availability disappears. But a few years down the road they won't be worth anything. 10 years down the road, no one will be desperately be seeking a MISB Warbot Defender to add their collection. Because it is not part of a collection. Its a good quality imitation of a Hasbro toy. (ahem, sounds like knock-off) And thats all it will ever be. If you come across a MISB G1 Optimus Prime, your heart almost assuredly skips a beat. 20 years from now, a MISB Fans Project Crossfire will not be giving anybody any heart attacks.
Overcracker wrote:I'm sorry, why is a third party product less legit than a Hasbro or Takara product?
Just because they are small companies, making less products doesn't mean they are less legit than Hasbro/Takara/Tomy.
Hasbro/Takara do not I repeat do not own in any way the transforming robot toy market.
Anybody can build a transforming robot if they wanted to and still be legit. Hell if they couldn't then Bandai, and Yamato, and all those other transforming robot makers would be ripping off Hasbro which they are not.
Fans Project may take inspiration for somethings in Hasbro designs, but as even Hasbro knows inspiration on something is completely legitimate.
I'm pretty sure they didn;t pay Bugatti any rights for this toy:
Or did they pay any rights to Aston Martin for:
Or even Chrysler for this:
Just because its 3rd party does not mean its any less legit or valuable than Hasbro's own products.
Seriously without third party competitors in any commercial niche there would be no loyal competition in any market.
Just like Shell, BP and Exon can all make Gasoline, LG, Apple, Samsung etc.. can all make cellphones that operate similarly and look very similar too; Hasbro, Bandai, Fansproject etc;.. can all make Transforming robots legally and legit..ly.
Its when you knockoff the complete design, engineering and look of a figure such as iGear's Faith Leader and MP Seekers, the KOs of classic seakers etc... thats when you loose any legitness.
Third party companies are perfectly legit.
Jeep! wrote:Why do I imagine Dead Metal sounding exactly like Arnie?
Intah-wib-buls?
Blurrz wrote:10/10
Leave it to Dead Metal to have the word 'Pronz' in his signature.
joesaysso wrote:
The difference is, regardless of whether or not it is MISB, its still authentic. If you have to spend a lot of money to get the figure you want, would you rather come away from the situation with something authentic or not authentic. Which raises another good similarity between KOs and 3rd parties. Neither has any long term value. All of those collectors that think that 3rd parties are so much better than KOs should keep one thing in mind. 3rd parties are not going to go up in value. Essentially, they are being bought at their peak value. There price may go up initially after their availability disappears. But a few years down the road they won't be worth anything. 10 years down the road, no one will be desperately be seeking a MISB Warbot Defender to add their collection. Because it is not part of a collection. Its a good quality imitation of a Hasbro toy. (ahem, sounds like knock-off) And thats all it will ever be. If you come across a MISB G1 Optimus Prime, your heart almost assuredly skips a beat. 20 years from now, a MISB Fans Project Crossfire will not be giving anybody any heart attacks.
joesaysso wrote:I view KOs and 3rd parties as bad investments. If you had onto them for too long you'll be lucky to get your money back. I appreciate what they both bring to the table. I just believe that they should be more appropriately priced so that you can enjoy them now because down the road they won't be worth anything.
Overcracker wrote:I'm sorry, why is a third party product less legit than a Hasbro or Takara product?
Astronopolis wrote:Overcracker wrote:I'm sorry, why is a third party product less legit than a Hasbro or Takara product?
by definition, they are Transformers not officially licensed by Hasbro. Its a technicality, and one that I ignore, but its still there.
Gauntlet101010 wrote:
Right now there's no way to prove this statement. And I tend to disagree. In the future people who still collect classics (and there's no doubt in my mind that there will be Neo-G1 collectors in the future)
At this point the market is still too new to really argue the point either way.
Overcracker wrote:I'm sorry, why is a third party product less legit than a Hasbro or Takara product?
xyl360 wrote: I collect because I enjoy the figures themselves, regardless of rarity.
Astronopolis wrote:KOs will always be KOs, but I would think that 3rd party items would be more of an investment against hasbro toys, because they are produced in more limited quantities. FansProjects Cliffjumper kit fetches quite a pretty penny, as well as pretty much every item with limited release and no reissues. it does remain to be seen if this pattern will continue in the future, but for now you can reliably scalp a 3rd party item in the short term.
The only reason Neo-G1 collectors exist now is because we have reached the point in the Transformers life span where G1 has become nostalgic to the generation of kids who grew up with it. Those kids are now adults who crave that G1 fix. However, there will come a time when, sadly, the generation of current collectors is a generation that did not not grow up with G1.
Anything that resembles a G1 Starscream will mean significantly less to them than it does to me because they didn't watch Starscream torment Megatron.
joesaysso wrote:
At the end of the day, whether its an exact copy of Hasbro's property or someone else's own version of Hasbro's property but it has a different name and its not called a Transformer, its still draining from Has/Tak's well. And neither is truly authentic. Yet some collectors fool themselves into thinking they are different and one is somehow better than the other.
joesaysso wrote:These people can justify meshing their collection with 3rd party transforming robots, which are just as authentic as a KO
Overcracker wrote:
Other Third party products provide a figure to fill a void that Hasbro at the time has not filled hence no draining.
K.O.s profit off of someone else's work by making available a similar but inferior quality product at the same time the real product is being sold without the expense of design or engineering for it.
3rd party products so far offer things that are either not available in Hasbro's own lines at the time or at all, or simply add on to current Hasbro products.
Overcracker wrote:I was under the impression the main point was that 3rd part products and KO's are the bane of Hasbro, I agree on K.O's I just think 3rd Party products are perfectly legal.
In your example of someone stealing my painting there's something there that actually exists to be stolen and modified: i.e the painting. That's a K.O.
However if I were to make a painting of a red car with a blond woman next to it, does that automatically preclude everybody else from painting a red car with a blond girl? I don't think so.
In the Defender instance, you are saying that no one has the right to ever produce or design a green and gray robot that turns into a helicopter and some kind of "car" ever because at some point almost 30 years ago Hasbro had the balls to make one?
That's like saying no one ever again can make a red sports car becauose Ferrari already did it.
I'm sorry but no defense attorney anywhere is going to go to court over that.
Jeep! wrote:Why do I imagine Dead Metal sounding exactly like Arnie?
Intah-wib-buls?
Blurrz wrote:10/10
Leave it to Dead Metal to have the word 'Pronz' in his signature.
joesaysso wrote:Thats interesting. Perhaps the oversized/better plastic may have something to do with it. Longterm worth may be an area where 3rd parties and KOs may differ. I suppose HQ KOs and junk KOs would also differ as well.
But how are you determining their worth for this statement?
Jeep! wrote:Why do I imagine Dead Metal sounding exactly like Arnie?
Intah-wib-buls?
Blurrz wrote:10/10
Leave it to Dead Metal to have the word 'Pronz' in his signature.
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