The Energon Pub

Being a fan of G1 figures, I could not be more happy! I do not collect TFs for their value or their age, I collect them because I like the Toys. Just because I was born too late to take advantage of their original release, does not mean I should have to pay 100s of dollars more for a piece of plastic that I think looks cool.

These new companies are making figures I want with quality I want with a price that I can afford far more that originals. I can also enjoy opening the box myself, applying the stickers myself, and wont have to try and hunt one down off ebay, only to have to spend hours with a Qtip cleaning the thing cause the previous owner was a smoker and never cleaned their toys! I would also have to say that even if the new plastic is of lesser quality (wich I dont even think it is), it is probably stronger than 20 year old plastic anyways!

If Hasbro or Takara/Tomy were making these, then I would pick those up. Since this does not appear to be happening, I am more then happy to add these to my collection!

The Chaos Bringer wrote:A real Metroplex wouldn't pass the drop test either.

And that may be why we won't see Hasbro reissuing Metroplex, just like it wouldn't issue Brave Maximus in North America. The rules have changed in twenty years - a responsible company is required to follow those rules.

The Chaos Bringer wrote:And I wouldn't worry about a baby becoming a mental midget from eating a KO Metroplex. No one would leave a Metroplex, KO or no KO, within reach of a baby. If they did, that's their fault, not whoever made the toy. After all, the sticker says "not suitable for children under the age of 3 years." If you don't heed the warning, who's fault is that?

Guns are dangerous and there are still lawsuits filed when someone is accidently hurt by them. Or more on point, there have been numerous lawsuits about toys and children, recently and in the past. Which is why we have things like "drop tests" in the first place.

Lookit, a lot of small fly-by-night KO operations are interested in a quick buck over safety. And if my hypathetical four year old got hurt by a bootleg Metroplex he played with at a friend's house, and I couldn't get a hold of the manufacturer, I'd sue the store that sold it.

If I was a toystore, I would not take the risk of that, or of having Hasbro's Legal Department come down with a charge of IP theft.

The Chaos Bringer wrote:A real Metroplex wouldn't pass the drop test either.

Yes it would, it weighs half of Cybertron Supreme Starscream.

harley quinn wrote:I do not collect TFs for their value or their age, I collect them because I like the Toys. Just because I was born too late to take advantage of their original release, does not mean I should have to pay 100s of dollars more for a piece of plastic that I think looks cool.

*DING DING DING* We have a winnah!

You are correct.

GetterDragun wrote:

The Chaos Bringer wrote:A real Metroplex wouldn't pass the drop test either.

Yes it would, it weighs half of Cybertron Supreme Starscream.

It might not.The drop test is not just about the weight of the figure but also if the figure breaks in half when droped from high places.

But I'm not willing to use my G1 Metroplex as a test subject to find out if it would pass

Autobot032 wrote:

harley quinn wrote:I do not collect TFs for their value or their age, I collect them because I like the Toys. Just because I was born too late to take advantage of their original release, does not mean I should have to pay 100s of dollars more for a piece of plastic that I think looks cool.

*DING DING DING* We have a winnah!

You are correct.

Why is Harley Quinn correct, supporting bootleggers is correct? If these KOs were clearly marked as such than I wouldnt care, but they are designed to fool the eye.

Some of us want to own a piece of TF history, not a fake, reverse engineered by a scam artist.

Imagine a new collector, who owned bots as a kid trying to navigate the vintage market today, likely he would be ripped off by his 5th purchase.

Again, the aggravation here is how these KOs are engineered to fool collectors. KO artists used to be a joke, offering flimsy alternatives to real TFs, now they are approaching the point of providing products that are identical to the naked eye. The KO market would not have attracted such sophisticated bootleggers if their wasnt big money to be had. Buying KOs expands the possibility for more KOs by funding these companies.

Buying KOs damages the future of the G1 collectors market.

I'm just going to come out and saying knowing all too well it's going to offend some people.

To those who are supporting and buying these KO's as substitutes and passing them off in their collections as a genuine TF figure, you're an insult to TF collectors.

Sorry, but that's just how I see it. You're supporting crooks, you're supporting people who are selling shoddy products at inflated prices and who are preying on the gullible and making it difficult for people to get GENUINE products.

And you're slapping Hasbro and TakaraTomy in the face by supporting these KO companies.

If you're going to spend money on a hobby, then give it to those who brought us, and continue to bring us, the Transformers brand we all know and love. Show your support to them, not some unknown company whose sole intention is to rip people off.

Well, buying a g1 piece off of eBay isn't really supporting any company, other then eBay itself.

Anyways, It's no one's business who collects what. Some hardcore Transformers collectors collect the knock offs too, just because. Doubt anyone would call them an insult to the collecting world.

None the less, some people collect for the sake of having that 20 year old toy, no matter the condition of it. Some people collect to have it MISB original, for their own reasons. Some people don't want to break the bank for a G1 original Prime, so they buy a hopefully cheaper knock off version. Can't really blame them. They want a nice box replica, thats what they want.

Of course, what I don't like and what I don't agree with, and what we can't really do anything about, is eBay people lying and saying it's an original blah blah blah and getting away with that sort of stuff.

Also, I don't appreciate seeing takara stamped on these knock off versions. Knock off toy companies should NOT put taht on their products, and they should know that, but they must not care.

I'm all about loose G1. Don't care what condition it is. But the chances of me getting a a wheeljack that I am happy with without spending silly amounts of money for, or spending silly amounts of money for his parts is pretty slim, so I might buy a knock off wheeljack if i find out for a reasonable price and see some pictures. That's abotu as far as I go for knock offs, unless they make a Fort Max knock off!

I can afford the $100 for a loose, really good condition chrome G1 metroplex. but I won't spend $100 on a wheeljack, hard to validate!

Burn wrote:To those who are supporting and buying these KO's as substitutes and passing them off in their collections as a genuine TF figure, you're an insult to TF collectors.

Some collectors are just interested in affordable cool-looking robots, regardless of who makes them. KO, original, whatever, it's fun to transform and you enjoy it. What's wrong with that? My collection is maybe 1/2 TF, 1/2 various mechas from other lines. I like diversity. I don't have any KO right now, but if I was to come across a cool one, I wouldn't mind getting it. Collections are personal. It's not like collectors who have G1 KOs are waiting to scam some unsuspecting fan later down the road... Most of us are collecting for fun, not for investment.

EDIT : I actually have a KO, King Dam (Dia Battles). Pretty good one with die-cast. I love it and I don't mind not having the original, it does the exact same job.

Burn wrote:I'm just going to come out and saying knowing all too well it's going to offend some people.

To those who are supporting and buying these KO's as substitutes and passing them off in their collections as a genuine TF figure, you're an insult to TF collectors.

Absolutely the truth! I dont care if anyone is offended.
As tempting as some of these KOs are, they simply arent the real thing.

Buying them is only helping damage the collector's community.
I want to see the collectors market flourish, not be watered down by fakes. Maybe it doesnt seem like a big deal now, but what about years down the road? What if there were hundreds of KO molds polluting ebay and conventions? Would we continue to be so apathetic if there was an even ratio of official to KO bots in the market?

Sid Burn wrote:

Burn wrote:I'm just going to come out and saying knowing all too well it's going to offend some people.

To those who are supporting and buying these KO's as substitutes and passing them off in their collections as a genuine TF figure, you're an insult to TF collectors.

Absolutely the truth! I dont care if anyone is offended.
As tempting as some of these KOs are, they simply arent the real thing.

Buying them is only helping damage the collector's community.
I want to see the collectors market flourish, not be watered down by fakes. Maybe it doesnt seem like a big deal now, but what about years down the road? What if there were hundreds of KO molds polluting ebay and conventions? Would we continue to be so apathetic if there was an even ratio of official to KO bots in the market?

Who cares, some people like them, some don't. Don't buy them if you don't like them. Don't let it ruin your christmas, cause judging by your posts, it has ruined you for the last week. I don't know what you are trying to prove at this point. There is a market for them, Hasbro/Takara arn't meeting that market. someone filled that spot in the market (it may be illegal, but they know they can get away with it). If there wasnt a market for knockoffs, they wouldn't be there. Atleast they arn't like coins and stuff where people are getting burned for thousands of dollars. Live, love, and don't let thinking about how much you hate Transformers KOs ruin your life. There are more important things out there.

Some of you are taking this hobby wayyyyyyyyyyyy too seriously. It's almost scary.

Sid Burn wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:

harley quinn wrote:I do not collect TFs for their value or their age, I collect them because I like the Toys. Just because I was born too late to take advantage of their original release, does not mean I should have to pay 100s of dollars more for a piece of plastic that I think looks cool.

*DING DING DING* We have a winnah!
You are correct.

Why is Harley Quinn correct, supporting bootleggers is correct? If these KOs were clearly marked as such than I wouldnt care, but they are designed to fool the eye.

Some of us want to own a piece of TF history, not a fake, reverse engineered by a scam artist.

Imagine a new collector, who owned bots as a kid trying to navigate the vintage market today, likely he would be ripped off by his 5th purchase.

Again, the aggravation here is how these KOs are engineered to fool collectors. KO artists used to be a joke, offering flimsy alternatives to real TFs, now they are approaching the point of providing products that are identical to the naked eye. The KO market would not have attracted such sophisticated bootleggers if their wasnt big money to be had. Buying KOs expands the possibility for more KOs by funding these companies.

Buying KOs damages the future of the G1 collectors market.

That's your opinion on the matter, and you're entitled to it.
Would I love a fully legit item for a good price? Well sure, who wouldn't? But for people like me (and many others like me) they offer an affordable alternative and I see nothing wrong with that.

I will concede one point: You are correct, they should make it clear that they are not Hasbro originals. (However, some of the auctions and sites flat out say "Chinese made, not Hasbro original. This remake replica."

I'll even give you the part about fooling some of the people (but in all fairness...not all of us are wet behind the ears enough to go in head first and say "Yup, looks legit to me!") but if you're going to get into collecting, you've got to fall on your face. It's one of the ways you learn. Not to mention, there are plenty of online sources that will tell a person the difference between these bootlegs and the originals. Past a certain point...if that person doesn't do at least a little bit of research on a figure before buying it, then doesn't some of the blame rest on their shoulders as well?

I'd have purchased Masterpiece Megatron back in March/April/May if I had been more impatient than I already am. I decided to go with a Wii because I wasn't sure that it was a good investment for my collection. (and I mean that as a personal financial investment. Not a bankable, ooh this could make me money, financial investment.) I studied all of the negatives and positives and then when the second round of Megatron's came out from Takara (with more in January) I realized that we're rounding the bend on his availability coming to an end. So, I decided it was worth the risk. I also knew that if he broke, it was on me and my decision to buy him. Fortunately I lucked out and followed my own advice of patience when handling him. He's one of the better figures I've owned and I'm glad I waited. I'd have been one of the first to buy and break him.

Now, it's publicly known that these Masterpiece figures tend to be fragile. (Not all of them though) Yet Takara keeps poppin' 'em out of the molds and shippin' 'em out. So why isn't Takara held accountable for their slipping QC and fatal design flaws?

Burn wrote:I'm just going to come out and saying knowing all too well it's going to offend some people.

"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." With that being said...I don't have high hopes for the next section.

Burn wrote:To those who are supporting and buying these KO's as substitutes and passing them off in their collections as a genuine TF figure, you're an insult to TF collectors.

Sorry, but that's just how I see it. You're supporting crooks, you're supporting people who are selling shoddy products at inflated prices and who are preying on the gullible and making it difficult for people to get GENUINE products.

And you're slapping Hasbro and TakaraTomy in the face by supporting these KO companies.

And I was right. And so were you, about it being offensive. Problem is, you made sure it was overly offensive. That was disgustingly rude.

Part of the problem with this fandom is the selfish, high and mighty, haughty attitudes that come from the people involved. THEY'RE FRIGGIN' TOYS, NOT LIFE CHANGING PIECES OF TREASURE THAT BRING OUT THE MEANING OF LIFE! Oh so many people seem to forget that. Too many people live *in* the TF world, not with it. They become a part of it, except they take it one step too far. No one's insulting other TF collectors by buying these. The collectors are the ones doing the insults, PERIOD.

You're just angry that your precious G1 collection might have it's market drop out if someone could go with a cheaper alternative. I for one applaud it. I think the prices charged for some of these pieces are absolutely ridiculous. But I find it INSANE that people are willing to take a car payment's worth of dough and spend it on a TOY. A TOY!

I (and many others) collect for the enjoyment! Collect just to have it because it's cool! We don't do it for the money, the prestige, or the possible monetary gain. (Besides, the old adage "It takes money to make money" doesn't fit here.) You'll end up spending more just to buy the figure from the getgo, than you ever will from a resale of it. Case example of where it *does* work would involve anything from Jin, but his is a specialty item that's handcrafted, lovingly. There IS a price to be put on that, and many gladly pay it. It's a one in a million piece, can't be found anywhere else. The average retail figure, however, ain't worth squat in the big scheme of things. Talk to any outsider and they'll say something like "Oh yeah, I remember those." you show them an auction for Fort Max, and there's a really good chance you'll hear "Wow. I could buy a winter beater for that price! I ain't gonna pay that for a *TOY*." The value you for you and I tends to be much different just in our world. Then you add in the outsiders and it becomes quite clear that what we hold so precious ain't worth squat to the rest of the world. And that's why I collect for me. I collect for fun, and not the money issue. If it was about money, I'd have found something else to invest in that was a sure thing.

The company bought the molds and factory, fair and square. All of it belongs to them now. They've every right to produce a product with property they own. Now, in all fairness...I agree with you about copyright stamps, packaging, blatant 1:1 copies. This company is smart enough to know that that's how they'll make their money (and it works) but the figure itself...isn't illegal, or dirty. It's a legitimate item created from molds they OWN. Now, if they reverse engineered existing figures and starting pumpin' 'em out like they are now...then, yes. I'd fully agree with you. As it stands, however...your argument is not fully correct.

Oh and slapping Hasbro/Takara in the face? Oh please. We've paid for their paychecks so many times over, it's disgusting.
Hasbro left us hanging in the lurch with the Classics Seekers. Takara's QC has gone down so low that people waited a YEAR to buy Masterpiece Starscream from Wal-Mart because they knew it was half the price and if it broke, they could at least get it replaced...no problem. Hasbro and Takara know that the collectors want Sunstreaker, Trailbreaker, Ratbat, etc and they could easily buy the factory and the molds BACK in a hostile takeover if need be, but they don't do it. Why? I don't have the answer, and I'd darn sure like to know. They want people to buy their product, yet they don't give us all of it when they could. They just don't do it. So this bootlegger company saw the hole in the market, exploited it (yes, I'll concede that point too!) and legally took the molds they purchased fair and square and produced the items that fill the holes. It's not the best way to approach it, but that's how it is. If you don't like it, don't buy the products, but don't deny others who willingly want to buy them. Don't disparage their character and tell them what kind of people you think they are just because they're willing to buy something that isn't a Hasbro/Takara product.

Remember...when you're the one pointing the finger, three others are pointing right back at YOU.

Burn wrote:If you're going to spend money on a hobby, then give it to those who brought us, and continue to bring us, the Transformers brand we all know and love. Show your support to them, not some unknown company whose sole intention is to rip people off.

I'm not sure whether to laugh, or become even more angry with this one.

Everyone you see here supports Hasbro and Takara, even if they've bought a bootlegged G1 figure.

Collectors here own:

Armada
BW/BM
Energon
Cybertron
Classics
Masterpiece
Movie
RiD

And all of those are legitimate, Hasbro/Takara made items. Where did that money go? Into their paychecks, into their business, into providing income for more figures for the future. Obviously they're doing a terrific bit of business this year, because they're constantly sold out.

These current bootlegs are coming from a line that Hasbro doesn't even involve themselves with anymore. Takara does here and there, but not in the past year (that I recall)

If Hasbro/Takara stepped up to the plate, bought the molds or reverse engineered the existing figures (which I know the whole R.E. thing has been covered, I can keep up.) then the collectors would buy their products instead of the bootleggers.

The blame ultimately lies with Hasbro/Takara.
They light the fire and get it going, then walk away and let it burn out of control. The bootleggers come along, fix Hasbro/Takara's screwups and bring it back under control. Hasbro/Takara's take on it? *shrugs*

If anyone should be angry at an offending party...it's us being angry at HASTAK. Takara owned all of the first season G1 molds long before they were licensed by Takara for use in the US, so why hasn't Takara released the figures that the bootleggers are? And...why was Hasbro allowed to sell their molds off to this company? Those moves are boneheaded and a direct hit to the pocketbooks.

It's their fault that your fellow collectors are willing to buy legitimately made figures to help fill the holes that Hasbro and Takara are NOT willing to do.

People are so busy pointing fingers at the wrong culprit. Point the blame at the big two, and then yourself.

Because ultimately, at the end of the day...all of it is on YOUR hands. You don't have to buy these items, you choose to. Once you've chosen to do so, you have two options left to you:

1.) Enjoy the product and be happy and let others do so.
or
2.) Whine about all of it, deny others of any happiness they might find at an affordable price, and complain about it around the clock and personally attack an entire group of people for doing so.

It's a shame no one's willing to take the third option:

Live and let live, go on with your life, not concerning yourself with the lives of other and shut the yap.

Briggs wrote:Well, buying a g1 piece off of eBay isn't really supporting any company, other then eBay itself.

True, but at the same time the money isn't going to companies that are making figures to exploit the collector market.

Anyways, It's no one's business who collects what. Some hardcore Transformers collectors collect the knock offs too, just because. Doubt anyone would call them an insult to the collecting world.

I have a couple of knock-offs. Perhaps I should explain myself better.

It's the people that buy these KO's and put them in their collection and regard them as the real thing.

It's not the real thing, it's a fake. And for someone to try to pass it off as the real thing in their collection is kidding themselves.

Dr.Z wrote:Some collectors are just interested in affordable cool-looking robots, regardless of who makes them. KO, original, whatever, it's fun to transform and you enjoy it. What's wrong with that? My collection is maybe 1/2 TF, 1/2 various mechas from other lines. I like diversity. I don't have any KO right now, but if I was to come across a cool one, I wouldn't mind getting it. Collections are personal. It's not like collectors who have G1 KOs are waiting to scam some unsuspecting fan later down the road... Most of us are collecting for fun, not for investment.

See above. Hope that explains things a little more clearly.

The only interest I have in KO's is for any mold modifications. There's some interesting ones out there.

Burn wrote:It's the people that buy these KO's and put them in their collection and regard them as the real thing.

But who does that?

Dr. Z wrote:

Burn wrote:It's the people that buy these KO's and put them in their collection and regard them as the real thing.

But who does that?

And what does it matter? Im not gonna be your friend anymore cause you have that KO Slag posed next to your G1 Prime. You are trying to fool the world but you can't fool me.

Does it really matter? Do you get in a Transformers pissing contest over who has the better collection? Are you 12?

Autobot032 wrote:

Sid Burn wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:

harley quinn wrote:I do not collect TFs for their value or their age, I collect them because I like the Toys. Just because I was born too late to take advantage of their original release, does not mean I should have to pay 100s of dollars more for a piece of plastic that I think looks cool.

*DING DING DING* We have a winnah!
You are correct.

Why is Harley Quinn correct, supporting bootleggers is correct? If these KOs were clearly marked as such than I wouldnt care, but they are designed to fool the eye.

Some of us want to own a piece of TF history, not a fake, reverse engineered by a scam artist.

Imagine a new collector, who owned bots as a kid trying to navigate the vintage market today, likely he would be ripped off by his 5th purchase.

Again, the aggravation here is how these KOs are engineered to fool collectors. KO artists used to be a joke, offering flimsy alternatives to real TFs, now they are approaching the point of providing products that are identical to the naked eye. The KO market would not have attracted such sophisticated bootleggers if their wasnt big money to be had. Buying KOs expands the possibility for more KOs by funding these companies.

Buying KOs damages the future of the G1 collectors market.

That's your opinion on the matter, and you're entitled to it.
Would I love a fully legit item for a good price? Well sure, who wouldn't? But for people like me (and many others like me) they offer an affordable alternative and I see nothing wrong with that.

I will concede one point: You are correct, they should make it clear that they are not Hasbro originals. (However, some of the auctions and sites flat out say "Chinese made, not Hasbro original. This remake replica."

I'll even give you the part about fooling some of the people (but in all fairness...not all of us are wet behind the ears enough to go in head first and say "Yup, looks legit to me!") but if you're going to get into collecting, you've got to fall on your face. It's one of the ways you learn. Not to mention, there are plenty of online sources that will tell a person the difference between these bootlegs and the originals. Past a certain point...if that person doesn't do at least a little bit of research on a figure before buying it, then doesn't some of the blame rest on their shoulders as well?

I'd have purchased Masterpiece Megatron back in March/April/May if I had been more impatient than I already am. I decided to go with a Wii because I wasn't sure that it was a good investment for my collection. (and I mean that as a personal financial investment. Not a bankable, ooh this could make me money, financial investment.) I studied all of the negatives and positives and then when the second round of Megatron's came out from Takara (with more in January) I realized that we're rounding the bend on his availability coming to an end. So, I decided it was worth the risk. I also knew that if he broke, it was on me and my decision to buy him. Fortunately I lucked out and followed my own advice of patience when handling him. He's one of the better figures I've owned and I'm glad I waited. I'd have been one of the first to buy and break him.

Now, it's publicly known that these Masterpiece figures tend to be fragile. (Not all of them though) Yet Takara keeps poppin' 'em out of the molds and shippin' 'em out. So why isn't Takara held accountable for their slipping QC and fatal design flaws?

Burn wrote:I'm just going to come out and saying knowing all too well it's going to offend some people.

"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." With that being said...I don't have high hopes for the next section.

Burn wrote:To those who are supporting and buying these KO's as substitutes and passing them off in their collections as a genuine TF figure, you're an insult to TF collectors.

Sorry, but that's just how I see it. You're supporting crooks, you're supporting people who are selling shoddy products at inflated prices and who are preying on the gullible and making it difficult for people to get GENUINE products.

And you're slapping Hasbro and TakaraTomy in the face by supporting these KO companies.

And I was right. And so were you, about it being offensive. Problem is, you made sure it was overly offensive. That was disgustingly rude.

Part of the problem with this fandom is the selfish, high and mighty, haughty attitudes that come from the people involved. THEY'RE FRIGGIN' TOYS, NOT LIFE CHANGING PIECES OF TREASURE THAT BRING OUT THE MEANING OF LIFE! Oh so many people seem to forget that. Too many people live *in* the TF world, not with it. They become a part of it, except they take it one step too far. No one's insulting other TF collectors by buying these. The collectors are the ones doing the insults, PERIOD.

You're just angry that your precious G1 collection might have it's market drop out if someone could go with a cheaper alternative. I for one applaud it. I think the prices charged for some of these pieces are absolutely ridiculous. But I find it INSANE that people are willing to take a car payment's worth of dough and spend it on a TOY. A TOY!

I (and many others) collect for the enjoyment! Collect just to have it because it's cool! We don't do it for the money, the prestige, or the possible monetary gain. (Besides, the old adage "It takes money to make money" doesn't fit here.) You'll end up spending more just to buy the figure from the getgo, than you ever will from a resale of it. Case example of where it *does* work would involve anything from Jin, but his is a specialty item that's handcrafted, lovingly. There IS a price to be put on that, and many gladly pay it. It's a one in a million piece, can't be found anywhere else. The average retail figure, however, ain't worth squat in the big scheme of things. Talk to any outsider and they'll say something like "Oh yeah, I remember those." you show them an auction for Fort Max, and there's a really good chance you'll hear "Wow. I could buy a winter beater for that price! I ain't gonna pay that for a *TOY*." The value you for you and I tends to be much different just in our world. Then you add in the outsiders and it becomes quite clear that what we hold so precious ain't worth squat to the rest of the world. And that's why I collect for me. I collect for fun, and not the money issue. If it was about money, I'd have found something else to invest in that was a sure thing.

The company bought the molds and factory, fair and square. All of it belongs to them now. They've every right to produce a product with property they own. Now, in all fairness...I agree with you about copyright stamps, packaging, blatant 1:1 copies. This company is smart enough to know that that's how they'll make their money (and it works) but the figure itself...isn't illegal, or dirty. It's a legitimate item created from molds they OWN. Now, if they reverse engineered existing figures and starting pumpin' 'em out like they are now...then, yes. I'd fully agree with you. As it stands, however...your argument is not fully correct.

Oh and slapping Hasbro/Takara in the face? Oh please. We've paid for their paychecks so many times over, it's disgusting.
Hasbro left us hanging in the lurch with the Classics Seekers. Takara's QC has gone down so low that people waited a YEAR to buy Masterpiece Starscream from Wal-Mart because they knew it was half the price and if it broke, they could at least get it replaced...no problem. Hasbro and Takara know that the collectors want Sunstreaker, Trailbreaker, Ratbat, etc and they could easily buy the factory and the molds BACK in a hostile takeover if need be, but they don't do it. Why? I don't have the answer, and I'd darn sure like to know. They want people to buy their product, yet they don't give us all of it when they could. They just don't do it. So this bootlegger company saw the hole in the market, exploited it (yes, I'll concede that point too!) and legally took the molds they purchased fair and square and produced the items that fill the holes. It's not the best way to approach it, but that's how it is. If you don't like it, don't buy the products, but don't deny others who willingly want to buy them. Don't disparage their character and tell them what kind of people you think they are just because they're willing to buy something that isn't a Hasbro/Takara product.

Remember...when you're the one pointing the finger, three others are pointing right back at YOU.

Burn wrote:If you're going to spend money on a hobby, then give it to those who brought us, and continue to bring us, the Transformers brand we all know and love. Show your support to them, not some unknown company whose sole intention is to rip people off.

I'm not sure whether to laugh, or become even more angry with this one.

Everyone you see here supports Hasbro and Takara, even if they've bought a bootlegged G1 figure.

Collectors here own:

Armada
BW/BM
Energon
Cybertron
Classics
Masterpiece
Movie
RiD

And all of those are legitimate, Hasbro/Takara made items. Where did that money go? Into their paychecks, into their business, into providing income for more figures for the future. Obviously they're doing a terrific bit of business this year, because they're constantly sold out.

These current bootlegs are coming from a line that Hasbro doesn't even involve themselves with anymore. Takara does here and there, but not in the past year (that I recall)

If Hasbro/Takara stepped up to the plate, bought the molds or reverse engineered the existing figures (which I know the whole R.E. thing has been covered, I can keep up.) then the collectors would buy their products instead of the bootleggers.

The blame ultimately lies with Hasbro/Takara.
They light the fire and get it going, then walk away and let it burn out of control. The bootleggers come along, fix Hasbro/Takara's screwups and bring it back under control. Hasbro/Takara's take on it? *shrugs*

If anyone should be angry at an offending party...it's us being angry at HASTAK. Takara owned all of the first season G1 molds long before they were licensed by Takara for use in the US, so why hasn't Takara released the figures that the bootleggers are? And...why was Hasbro allowed to sell their molds off to this company? Those moves are boneheaded and a direct hit to the pocketbooks.

It's their fault that your fellow collectors are willing to buy legitimately made figures to help fill the holes that Hasbro and Takara are NOT willing to do.

People are so busy pointing fingers at the wrong culprit. Point the blame at the big two, and then yourself.

Because ultimately, at the end of the day...all of it is on YOUR hands. You don't have to buy these items, you choose to. Once you've chosen to do so, you have two options left to you:

1.) Enjoy the product and be happy and let others do so.
or
2.) Whine about all of it, deny others of any happiness they might find at an affordable price, and complain about it around the clock and personally attack an entire group of people for doing so.

It's a shame no one's willing to take the third option:

Live and let live, go on with your life, not concerning yourself with the lives of other and shut the yap.

Wow....this is pretty much the same argument I've used when debating the merits of buying bootleg DVD's of movies.Its nice to see a like minded person.It was a delite to read your reply.

Some fans are pissed because they chose Metroplex. If it had been Overlord or Grandus, I don't think they would have cared that much.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Wow....this is pretty much the same argument I've used when debating the merits of buying bootleg DVD's of movies.

You buy bootleg DVDs of movies that are already available on DVD?

I had a nice big reply typed up nearly ready to go before my computer did something silly and I lost it.

And rather than wasting more time replying, i'm just going to make this as short as possible and get to the point.

"High and mighty, haughty attitudes"

Given that this was in direct response to what I said, I can only assume this was aimed at me. Am I offended? No. See, i'm use to people judging me from a post or two. I'm use to people not making the effort to get to know me, to know how I tick, why i'm into Transformers. Want to judge me like that? Go right ahead, it says so much about you, and I know the truth about myself anyway.

The company bought the molds and factory, fair and square

Yes they did.

All of it belongs to them now

Yes it does

They've every right to produce a product with property they own

Yes they do. However you're missing something.
They don't own the names. They don't own the likenesses. The names especially are still copyrighted by Hasbro/TakaraTomy. People seem to be overlooking that little tidbit.

Oh and slapping Hasbro/Takara in the face? Oh please. We've paid for their paychecks so many times over, it's disgusting ... etc etc with more whining about Hasbro

Honestly, you do yourself no favours here. You're quick to criticise me about getting worked up over it all, perhaps I should remind you of your own quote? - "THEY'RE FRIGGIN' TOYS, NOT LIFE CHANGING PIECES OF TREASURE THAT BRING OUT THE MEANING OF LIFE!" - Yet toys they sure seem to get you riled up at Hasbro/TakaraTomy good and proper ...

Hasbro and Takara know that the collectors want Sunstreaker, Trailbreaker, Ratbat, etc and they could easily buy the factory and the molds BACK in a hostile takeover if need be, but they don't do it. Why? I don't have the answer, and I'd darn sure like to know.

This one truly cracked me up.

"Easily buy the factory and molds BACK" ... easy huh? How can you know it's so easy to do yet not understand why they don't do it?

Could it be perhaps that the factories were sold off at a time when Takara was in financial distress? A time when Transformers was NOT the popular franchise it is today?

Takara was nearly bankrupt you know, and if I recall, they came close to it a couple of times before the merger with Tomy.

You know another reason why Hasbro/TakaraTomy don't give us the figures we want?

Because people support the KO companies.

Why would they release genuine high quality figures into a market flooded with cheap poor quality stuff?

Is anyone of the misguided belief that the toy buying public (not just collectors) is going to pay extra for them?

Now of course figures like the Dinobots would be at a price point to compete with these "reissue knock-offs".

But what about Devestator and the other gestalts? You can pick these up for $5 or so. For Hasbro/TakaraTomy to put out gestalts would cost, at best, $50+. Into a market flooded with $5 versions.

Anyone seeing the bad business move there?

That right there is why you're not getting the figures you want, because the market is flooded with cheap poor quality versions. And they're not going to compete against them just because "the collector fans would support them". If a company were to survive on collectors in a market filled with cheap KO's, it'd be instant business suicide.

It's a shame no one's willing to take the third option:

Live and let live, go on with your life, not concerning yourself with the lives of other and shut the yap.

You do understand the concept of a "discussion forum" don't you? I have a right to speak my mind (and i'm doing so in a non-flammatory way, people will either be proud or worried i'm getting old and losing my touch) as much as you do.

I don't expect people to agree with me. That's what I like about discussion forums, people can give different views on things.

The trick is being able to accept the differences of opinions, and not telling them to "shut the yap" if you don't like them.

Barrelass wrote:

Burn]It's the people that buy these KO's and put them in their collection and regard them as the real thing.[/quote]

[quote="Dr.Z wrote:But who does that?

And what does it matter? Im not gonna be your friend anymore cause you have that KO Slag posed next to your G1 Prime. You are trying to fool the world but you can't fool me.

Does it really matter? Do you get in a Transformers pissing contest over who has the better collection? Are you 12?

Dr.Z - From what i've seen, there's a couple of people in this thread that seem to do that. I won't name names though as that would be borderline flammatory, but go back and have a read for yourself.

Barrelass - It doesn't matter, I just find it disappointing that people would take such an easy option, and maybe it's because i'm very proud of my collection that makes me think this, but for a person to do that to me demonstrates they don't seem to have much pride for their own collection.

Not my business I know. But disappointing none the less.

As for the age crack, yeah ... no comment on that one. Just not worth it.

I really don't have much more to add (and people breathed a sigh of relief) so feel free to tear what i've said apart, feel free to tear who I am apart, judge me to your hearts content, but before you do, try reading what i've posted and open your mind to the possibility that some of the things just might, even if it's a teeny tiny little bit, make sense. Please?

Barrelass wrote: Live, love, and don't let thinking about how much you hate Transformers KOs ruin your life. There are more important things out there.

Agreed, but I do love collecting transformers. I intend to collect transformers for many years and it saddens me to see the vintage market becoming more and more diluted.

I dont mean to be overly dramatic, but I can see where this is going and it wont be good for anyone.
The point I am trying to make is buying these KOs make the KO market flourish and attracts more bootleggers. Maybe you get to enjoy a mirage KO right now, but you are expanding an industry that is bad for the hobby long term.

Autobot032 and Burn are on opposite sides of the short term issue. I agree with points from both sides, but I am more concerned with the effects this will have on the collector's market in 5,10,15 years.

Type Devastator into ebays search engine and tell me that it isnt a little disturbing that 90% of the auctions are KO. Now what if this happened with every G1 character you looked for. That is a bleak future for collectors.

SWEET ZOMBIE JESUS! You guys need to calm down. Some collectors hate KOs because they're richer than the rest of us and could afford a vintage Metroplex with their pocket money. Good for them!
Some collectors like them because they can't afford a vintage Metroplex or simply have better priorities like paying for gas. GOOD FOR THEM!

No one here is an insult to TF collectors. As I pointed out earlier, HasTak can't reissue Metroplex because it wouldn't survive a drop test. It has a gigantic torso and a wasp waist. Drop it and it cracks in half. HasTak CAN'T reissue it. So the KOers produce it so those of us that want one can get one for a more affordable price. Since HasTak can't reissue it, the KO isn't competing with any official transformers product HasTak aren't losing any more money than they'd lose if someone bought one off eBay.

Also a lot of G1s have broken over the years. By now there simply aren't enough Metroplexes to go around. If there were no KOs and all the "real collectors"(read: rich collectors) bought the vintage ones, the rest of us would be very sad indeed.

I want a Metroplex. If you're telling me that I just shouldn't get to have one because I haven't won the lottery then we are going to have a fight. If you aren't going to lose sleep knowing that I was able to get a Metroplex that I could actually afford, then we'll get along fine.

The Chaos Bringer wrote:Some collectors hate KOs because they're richer than the rest of us and could afford a vintage Metroplex with their pocket money. Good for them!
Some collectors like them because they can't afford a vintage Metroplex or simply have better priorities like paying for gas. GOOD FOR THEM!

You might want to rephrase "better priorities" to "different priorities." I fall into the former category of your argument but regardless of the money I am able to spend on my collection, I dont want to see a 1:1 ratio of KO to official transformers and that is where this is headed.

None of us have even seen this KO Metroplex either, it is going to be quite funny if the thing looks like ****. All this point counterpoint will be for nothing.

I do know that the profits these KOs are managing right now is ridiculous. If you think that KO Metroplex is going to be cheaper than a vintage one, you should check out the final bids on the KO Dinobots. I am betting this KO is going to come in over the $100 buyitnow mark.

Sid Burn wrote:

The Chaos Bringer wrote:Some collectors hate KOs because they're richer than the rest of us and could afford a vintage Metroplex with their pocket money. Good for them!
Some collectors like them because they can't afford a vintage Metroplex or simply have better priorities like paying for gas. GOOD FOR THEM!

You might want to rephrase "better priorities" to "different priorities." I fall into the former category of your argument but regardless of the money I am able to spend on my collection, I dont want to see a 1:1 ratio of KO to official transformers and that is where this is headed.

None of us have even seen this KO Metroplex either, it is going to be quite funny if the thing looks like ****. All this point counterpoint will be for nothing.

I do know that the profits these KOs are managing right now is ridiculous. If you think that KO Metroplex is going to be cheaper than a vintage one, you should check out the final bids on the KO Dinobots. I am betting this KO is going to come in over the $100 buyitnow mark.

That's eBay sellers. It's not the KOer's fault. Someone could also sell it for a lot under the $100 buyitnow mark. It's all up to the seller. The KOer jut makes the thing avaliable at all.

The Chaos Bringer wrote:That's eBay sellers. It's not the KOer's fault. Someone could also sell it for a lot under the $100 buyitnow mark. It's all up to the seller. The KOer jut makes the thing avaliable at all.

If current trends continue, you will be hard pressed to find this upcoming KO for cheap. The Dinobots and Mirage are brutally high in price, the pricing seems constant amongst most of the KO sellers. Obviously the gestalts are cheaper but they are obvious fakes.

I do agree that it is a multi pronged problem, and eventually distributers of these KOs will realize that they will move more product by reducing prices, but it all boils down to whether or not you are satisfied with a counterfeit product, I for one am not.

I am very tempted by the dinobots, due to the lack of a reissue on Hastak's part but in the end, if I owned them I would always look at them as KOs and not transformers.

I suppose it is too much to ask that the entire collector's community shun these KOs for the sake of the future collector's market, but I for one wont be adding to the problem.

I do agree that it would be nice if they remove the original copyright, or change it to say 2007, but so far they aren't.

Since I personally can't do anything about this like start up my own factory and make these slightly differently, I really have no right to critisize what another group of people are produsing. All I can do is give my opinion on their product, and possibly add some suggestions and speculations of things to come.

What I do really have a problem with are statements like this.

"I'm just going to come out and saying knowing all too well it's going to offend some people. To those who are supporting and buying these KO's as substitutes and passing them off in their collections as a genuine TF figure, you're an insult to TF collectors."

I do not express my opinions to then be insulted by a stranger. Altho I feel differently from some people, I will NEVER insult a persone based on what they chose to buy. I am dissapointed in the maturity level that is sometimes displayed here. I do understand that this is a group of people who still play with toys, but I would have thought that everyone here has grown up enough to be able to "play nice".

I love Transformers. Being a girl, I was not given any Tfs growing up, so my entire collection is made up of figures I had to obtain for myself in tha past 5 years or so. That is tough when you mostly like figures that are 25 years old. I have very few G1 originals, ALL of the Takara reissues, and I am more then happy to fill the rest of those gaps with good quality KO versions.

Metroplex will be a very exciting addition to my collection. If I drop it down the stairs and it snaps in half, I am ok with that, because I know the risks involved and that this is a reason why Hastak wont reissue it. I guess I will just have to treat it will the same respect and care as my other figs, and there should never be a problem.