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I would be satisfied with a counterfeit if it is capable of transforming back and forth without breaking. There are "legit" transformers that can't even do that. I guess it would kind of suck if one of you guys that can afford a mint Metroplex bought the KO for full price thinking you were getting the real thing, but if the KO is that close to the real thing then how much difference would it make? If it uses the same mold as the real thing then the only difference should be plastic quality but then again HasTak don't always use the best plastic anyhow.

In any case, I am inclined to consider something to be an official product if it is made from a mold owned by the company that is producing it.

Burn wrote:...
making it difficult for people to get GENUINE products.

I'm pretty sure that's TakaTomy/Hasbro, by not making the genuine products available to purchase.
I would love to be able to buy new Dinobots from either of the companies listed above. But they won't make them available for me to purchase.
Of course, I'm not buying the bootlegs/knockoffs either, but that's because I can't justify the cost to myself, not because they're not official Hasbro/TakaTomy product.

Burn wrote:
Why would they release genuine high quality figures into a market flooded with cheap poor quality stuff?

Is anyone of the misguided belief that the toy buying public (not just collectors) is going to pay extra for them?

Now of course figures like the Dinobots would be at a price point to compete with these "reissue knock-offs".

But what about Devestator and the other gestalts? You can pick these up for $5 or so. For Hasbro/TakaraTomy to put out gestalts would cost, at best, $50+. Into a market flooded with $5 versions.

Because the stuff out now, at least the cheap stuff, is crap. I bought a Devastator KO, and it's broken. And I didn't play with it, I merely tried to combine the figures.
I have the Defensor and Superion KOs, and they're not bad. But there's still a chance I would buy a reissue.
The Menasor KO doesn't even have a complete set of KO Stunticons.
The other combiners don't have KOs, that I'm aware of.
And the Dinobots... as others have stated, the price could reasonably be expected to be in the neighborhood of $150 for the set. The KOs at best usually cost about $70 each, correct? By my math, that equals:
Complete set of KOs= $350.
Complete set of reissues=$150.
Now, which one do you think would be more popular?
The same thing with the Autobot cars. Even if Mirage is high quality, it still costs about $70. A reissue Mirage would be what, $35-$40? Personally, I know which one I'd go for.
Which is why I still don't understand why TakaTomy won't reissue these things.

A hundred and ten bucks for a knockoff? That's over fifty quid- 2/3 more than the original cost back in the day! Then there's postage from Hong Kong (although Singapore usually has better overseas rates and might be a better place to buy from- if you get an honest seller who quotes actual cost) to factor in. In the words of St Francis of Assisi- screw that.

24 quid ($50) plus shipping for my red Mirage was bad enough. By the by- the plastic quality is not quite up to Hasbro standard. It just feels slightly rougher and the paint detailing isn't perfect. However, the accessories, paperwork and box are spot on. They did a remarkable job- even the paper and cardboard stock for the instructions and box are the same. The box has a slight red caste but other than that it's probably identical to an original.

-Nick

So far this new company looks very promising. As long as the quality is as good as they claim it will be, I will be a very happy collector, and so will many other people I am sure.

Posted by Spencer from http://www.agesthreeandup.com on http://www.tfw2005.com.

As I said, this is company new to the KO figures and while talking to the owner, he told me that he did not know how much people were unhappy with the copyrites on the boxes and the figures. He told me that he will remove this from their boxes and figures for all subsequent runs of this figure. They will also consider this on any other figures they produce.

What we are seeing here is the birth of the "Reproduction Model" and what we've seen over the past few years has been official "Reissues".

Really, it has simply been the complexity of Transformers over the past 15 years that has prevented the Reproduction crew from going to town. With the popularity of the movie, we now have given rise and reason for those with the ability to Repro Transformers to do so.

I remember years back when my dad was collecting vintage post-war robot toys from Japan, Repros were all the rage. Usually, the original company had long since gone out of business and people were glad for the chance to buy the replica toy.

As to these Reproductions we're seeing now. They actually aren't KOs or Bootlegs in the sense that we've known those terms. Reproductions are usually done with high quality materials. They may even end up being better made in the end when compared to originals.

They are not official. They should NOT be considered "official" nor should they be considered "Reissues". Reproductions have a history of including a date stamp of the current year or other small, but distinguishable characteristics which set them apart.

In some ways I hate these things. I know that somewhere, someone is going to pass one off as true vintage. I detest that.

I also do not understand who in their right mind would pay $100+ for a Metroplex Repro when it is an easy to find vintage toy complete for less than $65.

We as collectors are going to have to deal with these things. It's a simple fact of life.

In some ways, this comes down once again to the haves vs have-nots argument. Only, this time both sides are arguing the same thing and don't realize it.

Some don't like Reproductions because they can afford the originals. They want authenticity to their collection.

Some like Reproductions because they think that there will be affordable alternatives to G1 vintage.

Well, the Repros probably won't actually kill the vintage market. I doubt they can flood it enough to do so. Apparently these things ARE expensive to make. So, those that want authenticity don't have too much to worry about in reality. Those expecting cheap alternatives are just wrong. These Repros will increase in value and price themselves right out of the market. "Reproduction" Robby-the-Robots from 15 years back are more expensive than the originals.

I tell you what though; no one is going to pass up a Black Zarak without GPS just because he's a Repro.

bookofjunon wrote:I already ordered mine.

These KO's are no different than Hasbro reissuing the originals. Metroplex is a hard to find MISB figure.

Plus, since Hasbro and Takara are unwilling to give us Mirage, Wheeljack, Sunstreaker, Metroplex, and the Dinobots I say let those who are willing to reissue them reissue them.

I'm not talking about those cheap combiner KO's of Devastator or Superion that obviously are low quality crap. These are figures that once removed from their package, much like official reissues, are nearly impossible to tell they are KO's.

Who cares???

I am glad these companies are reissue these figures. And that's really what they are, reissues, not KO's.

I agree with him, and I also believe that KOs are a great way to get what you can other wise not, or have to pay too much for...there will always be KOs...look at Gi Joe and the Corps toys.. knock offs, and more knock offs.. but off equal quality.. only in that case there are no name brand characters.. still I may want to get these K-Mart (Knock off) Transformers, intead of paying through the nose from Macy's (Hasbro) originals..

know what I mean?

Some people have a hard time grasping (me included) the reasons for spending $100 + on a knock off/bootleg/repo Metroplex when you can go and get a loose vintage one, complete, in great condition, for under $100.

And what we don't get is that some people like to keep it in box on their shelf. It's the idea of mib for display that they are willing to pay the $100+ for, not what's actually inside it. If they cared what was inside (like me), they'd buy the original for less then what the knock off will be selling for.

Once you understand that then you can see *their* side of things, of why they would purchase a repo.

It's all about the box.

And if they themselves try to pass it off as original blah blah, well, that's their own issue.. haha, they are lying to themselves, but again, who cares. It's their collection.

I still don't think it should be $100+ though, Hasbro/Takara prices are so high because they are *crooks*, like every company, out to make a profit, but they have to spend more money on factories/employees/quality control/mass shipping/etc/whatever, so that justifies a reissue costing $100 (sky lynx) a bit better then a knock off company does who probably won't make as many as a large company will and probably doesn't spend as much money on their infrastructure in the first place.


It's funny, I go on on, but what did I just do a few weeks ago? Bought a knock off Masterpiece Transforming Prime trailer for $100.. lol. But I think I'll go with it's an original, because, well, it is NO OTHER LIKE IT!

No offense guys and I don't know what you all are smoking, but I have NEVER and I mean never seen a Metroplex, MISB with all it's pieces go for less than 150 bucks plus shipping.

And no offense to any of you nice american fellows but MOST of the people on ebay are ripping Canadians and non americans off with their shipping fees.

Some of them are even so blantant as to admit they are breaking the rules of ebay. (Stating that the shipping fee covers their packing supplies is one thing, saying it covers their paypal fees or listing fees is against ebay's policies and MOST of them do it.)

So what, this is a KO, why do you all care if someone decides to spend the money for it? Honestly, since you are all so convinced you can buy one EXACTLY the same box and all for 65 bucks go ahead, we're not stopping you.

bookofjunon wrote:No offense guys and I don't know what you all are smoking, but I have NEVER and I mean never seen a Metroplex, MISB with all it's pieces go for less than 150 bucks plus shipping.

And no offense to any of you nice american fellows but MOST of the people on ebay are ripping Canadians and non americans off with their shipping fees.

Some of them are even so blantant as to admit they are breaking the rules of ebay. (Stating that the shipping fee covers their packing supplies is one thing, saying it covers their paypal fees or listing fees is against ebay's policies and MOST of them do it.)

So what, this is a KO, why do you all care if someone decides to spend the money for it? Honestly, since you are all so convinced you can buy one EXACTLY the same box and all for 65 bucks go ahead, we're not stopping you.

I guess you right about ebayer sellers.I've made a few sales to guys in Canada latly and the buyers were a little suprised that I didnt charge them more for shipping.

Right this very second I'd honestly rather see Hasbro create a new Fort Max than run across a KO of Metroplex. But that's just my wish for new (or at least reissues of old) Headmaster figures reasserting itself again.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

bookofjunon wrote:No offense guys and I don't know what you all are smoking, but I have NEVER and I mean never seen a Metroplex, MISB with all it's pieces go for less than 150 bucks plus shipping.

And no offense to any of you nice american fellows but MOST of the people on ebay are ripping Canadians and non americans off with their shipping fees.

Some of them are even so blantant as to admit they are breaking the rules of ebay. (Stating that the shipping fee covers their packing supplies is one thing, saying it covers their paypal fees or listing fees is against ebay's policies and MOST of them do it.)

So what, this is a KO, why do you all care if someone decides to spend the money for it? Honestly, since you are all so convinced you can buy one EXACTLY the same box and all for 65 bucks go ahead, we're not stopping you.

I guess you right about ebayer sellers.I've made a few sales to guys in Canada latly and the buyers were a little suprised that I didnt charge them more for shipping.

I wouldn't doubt it. I was charged 20 dollars to ship 2 comic books, tell me someone isn't being nice there. This was after he listed I have very reasonable shipping fees. Now I simply ask them before I bid, and most are just out to lunch with their costs.

bookofjunon wrote:So what, this is a KO, why do you all care if someone decides to spend the money for it? Honestly, since you are all so convinced you can buy one EXACTLY the same box and all for 65 bucks go ahead, we're not stopping you.

Just out of curiosity, how many G1 figures do you own?

What's your experience with buying them? Are you a vintage collector?

I'd like to better understand why you can't at least understand the argument of the opposing viewpoint at this point in the discussion.

How about a Masterpiece style Metroplex KO?

Counterpunch wrote:

bookofjunon wrote:So what, this is a KO, why do you all care if someone decides to spend the money for it? Honestly, since you are all so convinced you can buy one EXACTLY the same box and all for 65 bucks go ahead, we're not stopping you.

Just out of curiosity, how many G1 figures do you own?

What's your experience with buying them? Are you a vintage collector?

I'd like to better understand why you can't at least understand the argument of the opposing viewpoint at this point in the discussion.

I own about 100 G1 figures give or take 5 or 10 either way. Since the quality on these KO's has gone way up recently, I hardly care about originals anyway. As long as I have the figure. To me the whole if it isn't an original it's crap viewpoint is retarded.

bookofjunon wrote:To me the whole if it isn't an original it's crap viewpoint is retarded.

The fact that you aren't articulating a concession to the opposing viewpoint and instead simply call it retarded tells me that you still aren't making an attempt to understand it.

You can disagree all you want, but before you try to debase the opposing viewpoint, you have to at least know where to aim your gun.

I don't even disagree with you that Reproduction Transformers are a new and important part of the market. There are toys out there that should be reproduced because Has/Tak is either unwilling or unable to do so.

However, (this being the kind of concession I was referring to) any and all reproductions should seperate themselves by trade-stamp and date from original vintage pieces. The vintage market is real and it is valid. Counterfit figures damage the market, collector confidence, and the ability to purchcase goods online in drastic ways.

The only way to counter this effect is by proper trade-stamp and dating of these reproductions.

I hope that was clear. It's hard to type when riding on the short-bus, in my wheelchair, with my safety-helmet on...being retarded and all.

Auto Bot wrote:How about a Masterpiece style Metroplex KO?

Anemis (Mark's projects) is making a giant one right now.

Auto Bot wrote:How about a Masterpiece style Metroplex KO?

What does that even have to do with this topic?

Counterpunch wrote:

bookofjunon wrote:To me the whole if it isn't an original it's crap viewpoint is retarded.

The fact that you aren't articulating a concession to the opposing viewpoint and instead simply call it retarded tells me that you still aren't making an attempt to understand it.

You can disagree all you want, but before you try to debase the opposing viewpoint, you have to at least know where to aim your gun.

I don't even disagree with you that Reproduction Transformers are a new and important part of the market. There are toys out there that should be reproduced because Has/Tak is either unwilling or unable to do so.

However, (this being the kind of concession I was referring to) any and all reproductions should seperate themselves by trade-stamp and date from original vintage pieces. The vintage market is real and it is valid. Counterfit figures damage the market, collector confidence, and the ability to purchcase goods online in drastic ways.

The only way to counter this effect is by proper trade-stamp and dating of these reproductions.

I hope that was clear. It's hard to type when riding on the short-bus, in my wheelchair, with my safety-helmet on...being retarded and all.

First, if you are going to debate, do not put words in anyone's mouth. I didn't call anyone retarded.

Second, I did listenm to the other viewpoint, it makes no sense. Reproductions and KO's do not diminish the values of the originals in anyway. We are talking about toys here, considering MOST of them are worthless once they've been opened the point is moot.

Third, I don't care if the hardcore fans agree or not, I consider myself a very hardcore fan and I don't care. If it allows someone to get a figure they want, complete with a box who cares. Obviously Hasbro doesn't so why the hell should any of you? That to me is retarded.

Fourth, the fact I called the viewpoint retarded has nothing to do with whether or not I understand it. I think it's a stupid view, that is MY opinion, no one asked you to agree with it.

Fifth, When Hasbro or Takara decides to care about these, maybe I will too, until then to those who want them, fill yer boots. I'll take the Metroplex until I can find a G1 original for 100 bucks still sealed in its box with no stickers applied.

bookofjunon wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

bookofjunon wrote:No offense guys and I don't know what you all are smoking, but I have NEVER and I mean never seen a Metroplex, MISB with all it's pieces go for less than 150 bucks plus shipping.

And no offense to any of you nice american fellows but MOST of the people on ebay are ripping Canadians and non americans off with their shipping fees.

Some of them are even so blantant as to admit they are breaking the rules of ebay. (Stating that the shipping fee covers their packing supplies is one thing, saying it covers their paypal fees or listing fees is against ebay's policies and MOST of them do it.)

So what, this is a KO, why do you all care if someone decides to spend the money for it? Honestly, since you are all so convinced you can buy one EXACTLY the same box and all for 65 bucks go ahead, we're not stopping you.

I guess you right about ebayer sellers.I've made a few sales to guys in Canada latly and the buyers were a little suprised that I didnt charge them more for shipping.

I wouldn't doubt it. I was charged 20 dollars to ship 2 comic books, tell me someone isn't being nice there. This was after he listed I have very reasonable shipping fees. Now I simply ask them before I bid, and most are just out to lunch with their costs.

$20 bucks for shipping 2 comic books to Canada???????I just sent a buyer in Canada a MP Starscream for around that much.

Damn

bookofjunon wrote:Second, I did listenm to the other viewpoint, it makes no sense. Reproductions and KO's do not diminish the values of the originals in anyway. We are talking about toys here, considering MOST of them are worthless once they've been opened the point is moot.

Worthless? You see, this kind of statement leads me to kind of discredit anything else you might have to say about value and the secondary market. Stating that loose Transformers are worthless is a statement which belies a large degree of ignorance concerning vintage Transformers. The vintage TF market is almost exclusively loose figures. Boxed toys have a premium which is at times staggering.

Third, I don't care if the hardcore fans agree or not, I consider myself a very hardcore fan and I don't care. If it allows someone to get a figure they want, complete with a box who cares. Obviously Hasbro doesn't so why the hell should any of you? That to me is retarded.

Did you read the part where I said that these things were acceptable alternatives, if and only if they provide different trade and date stamping?

I don’t think you did.

Also, that word ‘retarded’…you keep using it, but I do not think it means what you think it means.

Also, the “I don’t care what the majority of those interested in the subject thinks, but I demand they agree with my viewpoint! nownownow!” view, well, it’s…it’s retarded.

Fourth, the fact I called the viewpoint retarded has nothing to do with whether or not I understand it.

WRONG.

It has everything to do with whether you understand it.

I think it's a stupid view, that is MY opinion, no one asked you to agree with it.

No one said I couldn’t shove that viewpoint in the fire and see if it holds up either.

Fifth, When Hasbro or Takara decides to care about these, maybe I will too, until then to those who want them, fill yer boots. I'll take the Metroplex until I can find a G1 original for 100 bucks still sealed in its box with no stickers applied.

I got mine for $65. Best of luck.

Counterpunch wrote:I got mine for $65.

MISB? BS.

Dr. Z wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:I got mine for $65.

MISB? BS.

Its possible.I myself found a mint in sealed box Skylinx and Metroplex at a small toystore in Brooklyn about 6 years ago.Bought them both at about $45 bucks each.I thought it was the luckest day for TF collecting in my life.My most unluckest day in a horror story.

Why the big deal over MISB?

You're eventually going to crack that baby open, so why not go MIB? At least then you can see what the quality of the figure is like inside.

And it's not like Metroplex can be viewed inside the box anyway, so if you want a box to display go find a box and forget the figure.

Burn wrote:Why the big deal over MISB?

You're eventually going to crack that baby open, so why not go MIB? At least then you can see what the quality of the figure is like inside.

And it's not like Metroplex can be viewed inside the box anyway, so if you want a box to display go find a box and forget the figure.

I got one of each on display too.I only bought the MISB one's because I couldnt believe my luck.