Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

bookofjunon wrote:I already ordered mine.

These KO's are no different than Hasbro reissuing the originals. Metroplex is a hard to find MISB figure.

Plus, since Hasbro and Takara are unwilling to give us Mirage, Wheeljack, Sunstreaker, Metroplex, and the Dinobots I say let those who are willing to reissue them reissue them.

I'm not talking about those cheap combiner KO's of Devastator or Superion that obviously are low quality crap. These are figures that once removed from their package, much like official reissues, are nearly impossible to tell they are KO's.

Who cares???

I am glad these companies are reissue these figures. And that's really what they are, reissues, not KO's.

the quality of these figures is NOT the same as the original. The plastics used are a cheaper quality as are the stickers. I'll take an original over an over-priced cheap reproduction any day.

Burn wrote:Yes, these KO's do offer a cheaper alternative, but as i've said numerous times, these are produced by companies who are looking to exploit collectors. Yes yes yes, that's what businesses do, but these guys are doing it through illegally produced products. To me, buying them is a slap in the fact to TakaraTomy and Hasbro who, despite all their misgivings, have given me 20+ years of entertainment.

And I would rather support them over a bunch of con artists.
(Again, my personal opinion, not meant to insult anyone)

Seibertron wrote:the quality of these figures is NOT the same as the original. The plastics used are a cheaper quality as are the stickers. I'll take an original over an over-priced cheap reproduction any day.

Sure, I'd rather have an original Shelby AC Cobra over a replica but I can't afford one. I'd love to trade my KO MISB Prime for a real G1 release in box fig...

Any takers?

Didn't think so.

The fact is that I can't justify the extreme price tag associated with MISB G1 TF toys...so for my toy room I use the "KO" version:

To KO or not to KO, that is the question. What am I saying? Metroplex sucked.

i agree with alot of you ive bought my share of KO's like superion and defensor from K-MART that were of very crappy quality and i bought devastator from biglots and CVS and to CVS KO might have been Smaller In Size But His Quality Was Way Better Than Biglots Devastator. the worst KO'S ive seen Are Biglots Devastator, K-MARTS Superion and Defensor, Biglots KO'S Of Leo COnvoy, Optimus From Beast Machines And Transmetal Ratrap. I Think For Collectors Like Me that dont Wanna Pay A Fortune On A MISB Metroplex A Good Quality KO Would Be Great And As For Fortress Maximus That Would Be A Killer KO

I feel so important and so cheap at the same time

devzilla wrote:... What am I saying? Metroplex sucked.

Excuse me?

I think that's too expensive for a KO. We don't even know about the quality yet.

its all good....i still have the original mom bought me back in the 80s..and its still brand new mint in box...lol

Metroplex79 wrote:I feel so important and so cheap at the same time

devzilla wrote:... What am I saying? Metroplex sucked.

Excuse me?

You have a new name remember.

Burn wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:However, these are not Knock Offs. These are Bootlegs.

Knock offs or bootlegs ... whatever you want to call them they're still illegal (outside of China anyway) productions produced with the intent to fool the collector into paying out money for over priced, often shoddy products.

MagnusPrimal wrote:If TakaTomy and Hasbro would just step up and start reissuing these figures, there would be a much smaller market for the KO's

People are aware that the reason legit versions aren't produced is (and until someone proves me wrong this seems to be the explanation) because the molds were left in the factories, and those factories have now been sold to the KO companies who are now utilising these molds?

So someone please enlighten me as to how TT/Hasbro can produce something they no longer have the molds for without the added cost of reverse engineering.

Why 'without the added cost?' They could reverse-engineer the molds. They did it with Soundwave/Soundblaster. So obviously, it can be done. And considering Takara's tendency to repeatedly re-release figures, they would likely make their money back.
They could offer to buy the molds from the companies producing the KOs. They could go into partnership with those companies.
I don't believe that there isn't a market for figures like Mirage, Wheeljack, Sunstreaker, and the Dinobots. Somebody is buying the KOs being produced, for a lot more than what Takara charges. Heck, they could raise their prices, and still be cheaper. And those people who don't like KOs would be buying then, since they'd be 'official.'

MagnusPrimal wrote:

Burn wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:However, these are not Knock Offs. These are Bootlegs.

Knock offs or bootlegs ... whatever you want to call them they're still illegal (outside of China anyway) productions produced with the intent to fool the collector into paying out money for over priced, often shoddy products.

MagnusPrimal wrote:If TakaTomy and Hasbro would just step up and start reissuing these figures, there would be a much smaller market for the KO's

People are aware that the reason legit versions aren't produced is (and until someone proves me wrong this seems to be the explanation) because the molds were left in the factories, and those factories have now been sold to the KO companies who are now utilising these molds?

So someone please enlighten me as to how TT/Hasbro can produce something they no longer have the molds for without the added cost of reverse engineering.

Why 'without the added cost?' They could reverse-engineer the molds. They did it with Soundwave/Soundblaster. So obviously, it can be done. And considering Takara's tendency to repeatedly re-release figures, they would likely make their money back.
They could offer to buy the molds from the companies producing the KOs. They could go into partnership with those companies.
I don't believe that there isn't a market for figures like Mirage, Wheeljack, Sunstreaker, and the Dinobots. Somebody is buying the KOs being produced, for a lot more than what Takara charges. Heck, they could raise their prices, and still be cheaper. And those people who don't like KOs would be buying then, since they'd be 'official.'

I asked Hasbro about this at Botcon. They said rebuilding a mold from an existing figure is easy and that is was already done with Soundwave.

By the way, anybody thinking cost of making the molds as the main issue is wrong. Look at Energon Grimlock and Swoop, I guarantee they sold less of those than reissues (I only saw like 2 per store), and that was a new mold with a newly developed figure. I have no idea why Hasbro/Takara would do something like Predaking over the Dinobots, but they did and it sold. Now the only thing I could see preventing this is expected sales being low, for figures with KOs available, I can see this being a fear, but come on! The Dinobots! Every one would buy a giftset of all 5 for like $150 bucks (basing that number on Predaking reissue price), those crappy reissue ones are $100 each!

Guh, kill Chinese Knock-Offs already~!

Of all the KOs I know about this is certainly the largest! I wouldn't have expected any of these companies to make "reproductions" of figures this large. A nice way to get vintage figures despite the price. I wonder how much a near mint Metroplex would cost.

GetterDragun wrote:I asked Hasbro about this at Botcon. They said rebuilding a mold from an existing figure is easy and that is was already done with Soundwave.

Yeah but years before that we were told that the Soundwave mold was broken and beyond repair.

And technically the Soundwave reissue isn't the original G1 as there were modifications done to it so it's not an exact reissue.

So years ago we were told the molds were either "lost" (read that as "we left them in a factory, the factory was then sold so we no longer have access to them"), "destroyed" or "damaged".

And the Energon Grimlock/Swoop molds is an interesting point. They were released in such small numbers and have yet to be repainted. Two molds they never seem to have gotten their monies worth out of.

And if I had time to search I do remember reading something about a new mold being expensive to develop. Damned if I can remember when I read it though.

-edit-
Wikia note on new molds and costs involved
By no means an authorative source but mostly what i'd heard. If i'm wrong, i'm wrong, so be it.

BotCon 05 tidbit?
From here

How about reissues of Wheeljack, Mirage, Sunstreaker, Trailbreaker, Ironhide or Ratchet?

At the BotCon 2005 panel, Hasbro confirmed that the molds for Wheeljack and Mirage are "long since depleted".

I'd buy a good quality KO Metroplex. I honestly don't care if it's original, reissue, or KO. It's going to get opened, played with, and enjoyed. That's all that matters to me. As long as it looks good, doesn't fall apart, and comes with all it's parts, that's all that really counts to me. I wish there were more KOs so I could own more G1 toys without having to pay high prices. Especially ones of molds that Hasbro/Takara refuse to reissue like the Dinobots or Fort Max.

I'm very unhappy with these KOs. I understand the argument that Hasbro and Takara isn't doing anything with the molds and ...

But still the prices these are going for is rediculious!

Metroplex is one of my favorite G1 figures and if you don't have him he is strongly recommended.

But like the recent KOs we've been seeing, these pieces arent vintage, or official, sell them at an affordable rate and stop passing pyrite for gold.

GetterDragun wrote:I asked Hasbro about this at Botcon. They said rebuilding a mold from an existing figure is easy and that is was already done with Soundwave.

Yes but the larger work done on Soundwave's mold was also done back in the 80's.From what I understand the amound of repair needed for the newer Soundwave reissues was minamal.

GetterDragun wrote:By the way, anybody thinking cost of making the molds as the main issue is wrong. Look at Energon Grimlock and Swoop, I guarantee they sold less of those than reissues (I only saw like 2 per store), and that was a new mold with a newly developed figure. I have no idea why Hasbro/Takara would do something like Predaking over the Dinobots, but they did and it sold. Now the only thing I could see preventing this is expected sales being low, for figures with KOs available, I can see this being a fear, but come on! The Dinobots! Every one would buy a giftset of all 5 for like $150 bucks (basing that number on Predaking reissue price), those crappy reissue ones are $100 each!

Interesting point But I can still see cost being a major hill to over come.The issue being that depending on the ammount of repair needed to the molds.....basicly if new molds must then be made then those molds would fall under the new safty laws for new toys.It would not be considered a reissued vintage toy to the safty commision [or what ever the people who check toys safty are called] and would fall under the new toy safty guide lines.Witch meens that some of them would not be able to be sold in the U.S. and some of Hasbro's other markets.

I dont think that Takara wants to invest the money needed to create the new molds if the international sales will be limited.

Aren't the WST Dinobots technically bootlegs?
Since when is there so much bootleg hate?

Consider this.

Hasbro and Takara have given us low quality figures before. My classics deluxe Prime feels like it's made of KO plastic. And yet it is considered a legit figure(despite sucking)

My reissue Soundwave's cassetes are poorly molded and don't fit together properly in either mold. And the plastic on both feels like paper! I've had KOs of much higher quality than this. And yet those cassettes are "official" so they are considered to be inherently better than KOs or bootlegs.

My 08/09/concept camaro/whatever Bumblebee is assembled wrong in a way that prevents the left sholder from being moved into its proper place. And when I took the figure out of the package I had to trim so much extra plastic flash off that I couldn't believe I was holding a legit figure.

I'm not even going to go into the rest of my movie figures.

I've owned my fair share of KOs/bootlegs in my life and I often find that they are of higher quality than "legit" figures. So what's the problem?

And BTW I want a complete Metroplex and I am NOT paying $200 for it. So I ask you all to NOT do anything to put pressure on bootleg companies to quit it. Why should I not be able to get a figure for cheap when Hasbro/Takare simply refuse to reissue it themselves? A bootleg Metroplex wouldn't exactly be competing with anything Has/Tak have on the market right now. So again, what's the problem?

The Chaos Bringer wrote:Aren't the WST Dinobots technically bootlegs?
Since when is there so much bootleg hate?

Consider this.

Hasbro and Takara have given us low quality figures before. My classics deluxe Prime feels like it's made of KO plastic. And yet it is considered a legit figure(despite sucking)

My reissue Soundwave's cassetes are poorly molded and don't fit together properly in either mold. And the plastic on both feels like paper! I've had KOs of much higher quality than this. And yet those cassettes are "official" so they are considered to be inherently better than KOs or bootlegs.

My 08/09/concept camaro/whatever Bumblebee is assembled wrong in a way that prevents the left sholder from being moved into its proper place. And when I took the figure out of the package I had to trim so much extra plastic flash off that I couldn't believe I was holding a legit figure.

I'm not even going to go into the rest of my movie figures.

I've owned my fair share of KOs/bootlegs in my life and I often find that they are of higher quality than "legit" figures. So what's the problem?

And BTW I want a complete Metroplex and I am NOT paying $200 for it. So I ask you all to NOT do anything to put pressure on bootleg companies to quit it. Why should I not be able to get a figure for cheap when Hasbro/Takare simply refuse to reissue it themselves? A bootleg Metroplex wouldn't exactly be competing with anything Has/Tak have on the market right now. So again, what's the problem?

I think the KO hate comes from the fact that many of the KO sellers try to pass them off as originals and ask some pretty high prices for them.Take a look at some of the prices for the KO G1 Swoop.I've seen it sell for about $150. bucks....thats nuts.I wouldnt mind paying 15 or 20 bucks for a KO but they are asking to much.

Sure there are expensive KOs out there. But the really expensive ones tend to be of higher quality than most other KOs. And seriously, how much would Hastak charge for an actual reissue Metroplex? I bet it would be more than the reissue is going to cost. Sure, someone out there will try to pass this off as the real thing at some point. But like I said in my above post, Hasbro often tries to pass garbage off as being "legit" so the KO sellers aren't the only ones that should be taking heat for it.

The Chaos Bringer wrote:Sure there are expensive KOs out there. But the really expensive ones tend to be of higher quality than most other KOs. And seriously, how much would Hastak charge for an actual reissue Metroplex? I bet it would be more than the reissue is going to cost. Sure, someone out there will try to pass this off as the real thing at some point. But like I said in my above post, Hasbro often tries to pass garbage off as being "legit" so the KO sellers aren't the only ones that should be taking heat for it.

True....but at least if we get a peace of crap from Hasbro we can at least take it back to the store and pitch a bitc% and get our money back.You cant always do that with the KO's.

I agree with Sid Burn, but for a reason different from (legitimate) fears in the vintage market - intellectual property theft.

Frankly, I'm intrigued by bootlegs but there are dangers inherent in them. These toys do not undergo the same rigours that are required of toys produced by companies like Hasbro. Do you think this KO Metroplex will undergo the drop test? What are the chances of toxicity in the paint applications?

So if one of these items falls into the hands of a child who is in some way harmed, who do you think will be affected? Because if the KO is as good in appearances as is claimed, then the first on the line will be Hasbro and the negative press become an issue (even if all the details come out in the end).

Crappy KOs like the old aerealbots and constructicons, or 3-D imaginatings of characters like the Quintessons (not a knock-off but IP theft from Sunbrow nonetheless) are better because they can't be seen to negatively affect Hasbro. But a good quality KO? Who knows...

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:I asked Hasbro about this at Botcon. They said rebuilding a mold from an existing figure is easy and that is was already done with Soundwave.

Yes but the larger work done on Soundwave's mold was also done back in the 80's.From what I understand the amound of repair needed for the newer Soundwave reissues was minamal.

GetterDragun wrote:By the way, anybody thinking cost of making the molds as the main issue is wrong. Look at Energon Grimlock and Swoop, I guarantee they sold less of those than reissues (I only saw like 2 per store), and that was a new mold with a newly developed figure. I have no idea why Hasbro/Takara would do something like Predaking over the Dinobots, but they did and it sold. Now the only thing I could see preventing this is expected sales being low, for figures with KOs available, I can see this being a fear, but come on! The Dinobots! Every one would buy a giftset of all 5 for like $150 bucks (basing that number on Predaking reissue price), those crappy reissue ones are $100 each!

Interesting point But I can still see cost being a major hill to over come.The issue being that depending on the ammount of repair needed to the molds.....basicly if new molds must then be made then those molds would fall under the new safty laws for new toys.It would not be considered a reissued vintage toy to the safty commision [or what ever the people who check toys safty are called] and would fall under the new toy safty guide lines.Witch meens that some of them would not be able to be sold in the U.S. and some of Hasbro's other markets.

I dont think that Takara wants to invest the money needed to create the new molds if the international sales will be limited.

I specifically asked them that question with the Grimlock/Swoop mold in mind. And for clarifying what I wrote, they said that if the figure exists, making a new mold from scratch (not repairing a failing mold) is easy. And that is what they did with Soundwave, not fix a mold. They said that to engineer a new figure is the difficult part. So Energon Grimlock/Swoop would be a significant amount of effort as compared with redoing Sunstreaker. I asked the question to settle this debate once and for all. Redoing Sunstreaker from a figure bought on e-bay is a lot less cost and work than people think.

And the safety law is a good point. But for the most part, the figures we want are no different than the Jazz or Prowl reissue. Plus (I know this is a Japanese item) if you ever held Revoltech Getter 2, it's like holding a figure made of razors, and that made the market!

A real Metroplex wouldn't pass the drop test either.
And I wouldn't worry about a baby becoming a mental midget from eating a KO Metroplex. No one would leave a Metroplex, KO or no KO, within reach of a baby. If they did, that's their fault, not whoever made the toy. After all, the sticker says "not suitable for children under the age of 3 years." If you don't heed the warning, who's fault is that?

GetterDragun wrote:I specifically asked them that question with the Grimlock/Swoop mold in mind. And for clarifying what I wrote, they said that if the figure exists, making a new mold from scratch (not repairing a failing mold) is easy. And that is what they did with Soundwave, not fix a mold.

It was my understanding [and if I'm wrong I'm sorry] that what they did when they found out that the Soundwave mold was damaged that they just modifide the orriginal "Casset Man" mold and recasted the mold.And again it was done in the late 80's or early 90's so some of the newer safty laws were not yet in place.

GetterDragun wrote:They said that to engineer a new figure is the difficult part. So Energon Grimlock/Swoop would be a significant amount of effort as compared with redoing Sunstreaker. I asked the question to settle this debate once and for all. Redoing Sunstreaker from a figure bought on e-bay is a lot less cost and work than people think.

This I understand.

GetterDragun wrote:And the safety law is a good point. But for the most part, the figures we want are no different than the Jazz or Prowl reissue. Plus (I know this is a Japanese item) if you ever held Revoltech Getter 2, it's like holding a figure made of razors, and that made the market!

True but the safty laws in the U.S. are different when it applys to old molds that are considered vintage collecters items ,and new toy molds that would be considered new toys collectors items.

Reissues only have to be modifide to fit current safty guidlines....larger missiles of gun.

But a new toy mold has to be designed with all the new safty laws in mind from scrach.So the same guidelines that apply to reissues like Jazz and Prowl wouldnt apply to the new molds of G1 figures like Sunstreaker and Wheeljack because as new molds they would have to be designed from scrach with the new laws in mind.