The Energon Pub

whacko wrote:

TF-fan kev777 wrote:

whacko wrote:I backed this thing, but I am thinking about backing out.

The more I see of this figure the more it does not look like $180 worth of toy. It is basically a Commander Class toy selling at an inflated Titan Class price. It even looks like it is recycling blast effects from past Commander Class toys.

$100-120 seems like a fairer price for what they're offering. $180 seem a little bit high. Especially since $180 is $20 more than MP-24 Starsaber sold for and this toy isn't going to have Masterpiece levels of plastic, paint and sculpt quality.

I don't completely disagree, but I think you are overlooking 2 main points. First comparing the price to MP Starsaber's original price is just an unfair comparison no matter how you look at it. MP Starsaber was made 6 years ago before the MP line changed their pricing format and before the regular generations line did the same. If MP Starsaber was released within the last year, we would at least have a current comparable price (my guess would be around $200-$250 if released today). Generations deluxes could still be gotten for $10 on sale back in 2015 versus $10 for a core class now. Does that mean that core figures should be the size of deluxes because this is what their price point was 6 years ago?

Second is that there really isn't a great standard definition of what makes a Commander Class figure. So far, we just have Jetfire, Sky Lynx and Rodimus Prime to go by. Jetfire was the biggest and simplest, Rodimus was the smallest and by far the most complex, and Sky Lynx is somewhere in the middle. Comparing what we've seen so far, Victory Saber is definitely more materials and more complex than Rodimus Prime so the price going beyond the normal commander price point in into Titan range makes sense.

I have all 3 Commanders so far, and what they have shown for Victory Saber is definitely beyond what any of the 3 commander releases have covered.

Edit: tldr: If you are using prices from 6 years ago as your basis on whether something is worth it to you, the answer will almost always be no.

I'm not using prices from 6 years ago as my basis for whether this is worth the price Hasbro is charging. I'm using current prices.

Star Saber isn't any larger or more complicated than either Jetfire or Sky Lynx, both of which I also own, but the set does come with a Victory Leo which looks like a more or less basic voyager class figure.

Commander Class figures have generally sold for $90 and voyagers sell for around $30. $90 + $30 = $120

Haslab wants $180 for this set

Just looking at the prototypes, I don't think the quality they are offering matches the price. Victory Leo who I know is more or less an accessory, has visibly hollow thighs and arms. So does Saber. The brainmaster doesn't look like it has any articulation. The guns are visibly hollow, etc.

Starsaber looks good, and the Victory Saber combined mode looks good as well. I just think it look more like $120-140 worth of toys so far, not $180.

And I'm not opposed to spending money when I think it is warranted. I've purchased nearly $2000 worth of Transformers and 3P toys over the last two months. I just like getting good value for my money and I think Hasbro might be trying to pull a fast one.

To each his own, but Star Saber seems far more deluxe to me than store bought figures. Maybe you'll feel differently when the painted sample comes.

william-james88 wrote:

whacko wrote:I backed this thing, but I am thinking about backing out.

The more I see of this figure the more it does not look like $180 worth of toy. It is basically a Commander Class toy selling at an inflated Titan Class price. It even looks like it is recycling blast effects from past Commander Class toys.

$100-120 seems like a fairer price for what they're offering. $180 seem a little bit high. Especially since $180 is $20 more than MP-24 Starsaber sold for and this toy isn't going to have Masterpiece levels of plastic, paint and sculpt quality.

Due to the lack of economies of scale, this toy would never ever give you the same worth of $180 you would see at retail. Ever.

No different than 3p companies charging upwards of $40 for scout sized toys https://tfsource.com/ironfactory/IF-EX49-void-legion/

In both cases, you're paying that price because the sunk cost of making the master mold has less product for that cost to spread out upon.

If you want to ensure you get something worth $180 retail, then just stick to retail.

Of course, you would then miss out on toys like this that would never be found at retail, and that added rarity will definitely play into inflated secondary market prices. So not buying it now if you are slightly interested would backfire when your only chance of experiencing the toy is to spend $400 on e-bay.

Your best bet is to just back it now and if you don't like it when it's released, then just sell it then since there is guaranteed to be new collectors around then that simply were not around when this toy was being backed.

Sorry friend, but this just sounds like a load of B$ to me.

You're rambling on about the "economies of scale" without any knowledge whatsoever regarding how many of these toys Hasbro will actually end up making. They could get 40,000 backers (not likely, but possible) and then the "economies of scale" swing radically in the opposite direction than it would had they just barely hit their 11,000 backer goal. Also consider that Haslab only serves North America, and there is zero chance that this character will not also be offered (eventually) to Japanese collectors and likely to other retailers across the globe.

How many Commander Class Kingdom Rodimus Prime toys did Hasbro manufacture? Do you know for certain that they made more than 11,000 of them? How would the economy of scale of that figure be significantly different than this figure?

I agree that once the crowd funding campaign is over, people who missed out are going to be trying to buy them on the secondary market. Time will tell if the price goes up significantly but I'm not really worried about "making my money back" if I decide I don't want the toy.

I am worried that projects like this will drive up prices across the board for Hasbro toys. If collectors are continually willing to pay more for less product, Hasbro has no reason to continue offering us more to keep customers happy. People complained when the new WFC series began and toys of all classes shrunk significantly but the quality bumped up a bit so people justified it.

How much more are people willing to justify before we're back to get crap toys as premium prices like we did in 2015 when Combiner Wars was the current toy line?

whacko wrote:How many Earthrise Kingdom Rodimus Prime toys did Hasbro manufacture? Do you know for certain that they made more than 11,000 of them? How would the economy of scale of that figure be significantly different than this figure?

I asked this exact question, I wish I knew. However I'm told, we don't know the exact answer, Hasbro doesn't make such things public. But it seems to be a safe bet that any mass retail toy would be produced at a high enough quantity to justify the making of the mold, so probably more than any crowdfunding would need. Also there are the prospects of using the mold multiple times (A Selects Primus toy, or SG Rodimus for instance could both be a reuse for Kingdom Rodimus)

Victory Saber (Like Unicron) will presumably only have one use, and not be used to make repaints of other characters because none really fit that mold

whacko wrote:I am worried that projects like this will drive up prices across the board for Hasbro toys. If collectors are continually willing to pay more for less product, Hasbro has no reason to stop offering us more to keep customers happy. People complained when the new WFC series began and toys of all classes shrunk significantly but the quality bumped up a bit so people justified it. How much more are people willing to justify before we're back to get crap toys as premium prices like we did in 2015 when Combiner Wars was the current toy line?

This is a lot of conjecture and opinion. Just because YOU didn't like CW doesn't mean everyone felt the same way, also the prices of the toys back then were less expensive. the main issue most seem to have with CW was it's repetition. Still, it did not suffer form many of the overall QC issues that WFC toys have had.

Smaller independent retailers like Super 7 do this all the time. Their toys are way more expensive because they are selling to a smaller market, so before they make a mold and produce a toy, they have to absolutely know it is going to be profitable first. Whether or not Victory Saber will be 2, 3 or more times it's current value in the secondary market is of little concern to me as well. Still I'd rather have this Haslab Project, than convention and club exclusives that were far more expensive, yet no new molds were made, except for perhaps a small head swap tool on occasion.

Still nobody is under obligation. If you don't want to purchase one, then by all means don't. I didn't purchase Unicron for various reasons already stated, but I am very happy for those that did, and are satisfied with it. Victory Saber (Star Saber and Victory Leo), happen to be characters I've wanted modern updates for a very long time, and frankly never thought would happen. Also It is priced in a range that is reasonable for *me* (not everyone will agree) so yes I am, giving this Haslab my support.

whacko wrote:

Star Saber isn't any larger or more complicated than either Jetfire or Sky Lynx, both of which I also own, but the set does come with a Victory Leo which looks like a more or less basic voyager class figure

Which basic voyagers have 3 modes and the ability to split apart and recombine in 2 different configurations?

Also, this project is open to the entire globe and Haslab serves more than just north america. Please look things up before posting falsehoods.

william-james88 wrote:

whacko wrote:

Star Saber isn't any larger or more complicated than either Jetfire or Sky Lynx, both of which I also own, but the set does come with a Victory Leo which looks like a more or less basic voyager class figure

Which basic voyagers have 3 modes and the ability to split apart and recombine in 2 different configurations?

Also, this project is open to the entire globe and Haslab serves more than just north america. Please look things up before posting falsehoods.

Also, a reminder that Galvatron, Optimus Prime, Shockwave, Astrotrain, and Ultra Magnus are all "voyagers" as well.

I wish people will stop thinking we are still in 2011.

-Kanrabat- wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

whacko wrote:

Star Saber isn't any larger or more complicated than either Jetfire or Sky Lynx, both of which I also own, but the set does come with a Victory Leo which looks like a more or less basic voyager class figure

Which basic voyagers have 3 modes and the ability to split apart and recombine in 2 different configurations?

Also, this project is open to the entire globe and Haslab serves more than just north america. Please look things up before posting falsehoods.

Also, a reminder that Galvatron, Optimus Prime, Shockwave, Astrotrain, and Ultra Magnus are all "voyagers" as well.

I wish people will stop thinking we are still in 2011.

Don't forget Kingdom Rodimus also being a "Voyager"

Sentinel_Primal wrote:

-Kanrabat- wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

whacko wrote:

Star Saber isn't any larger or more complicated than either Jetfire or Sky Lynx, both of which I also own, but the set does come with a Victory Leo which looks like a more or less basic voyager class figure

Which basic voyagers have 3 modes and the ability to split apart and recombine in 2 different configurations?

Also, this project is open to the entire globe and Haslab serves more than just north america. Please look things up before posting falsehoods.

Also, a reminder that Galvatron, Optimus Prime, Shockwave, Astrotrain, and Ultra Magnus are all "voyagers" as well.

I wish people will stop thinking we are still in 2011.

Don't forget Kingdom Rodimus also being a "Voyager"

Fokkit, ALL Transformers are voyageurs because they got shipped around the globe at one point or another.

-Kanrabat- wrote:

Sentinel_Primal wrote:

-Kanrabat- wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

whacko wrote:

Star Saber isn't any larger or more complicated than either Jetfire or Sky Lynx, both of which I also own, but the set does come with a Victory Leo which looks like a more or less basic voyager class figure

Which basic voyagers have 3 modes and the ability to split apart and recombine in 2 different configurations?

Also, this project is open to the entire globe and Haslab serves more than just north america. Please look things up before posting falsehoods.

Also, a reminder that Galvatron, Optimus Prime, Shockwave, Astrotrain, and Ultra Magnus are all "voyagers" as well.

I wish people will stop thinking we are still in 2011.

Don't forget Kingdom Rodimus also being a "Voyager"

Fokkit, ALL Transformers are voyageurs because they got shipped around the globe at one point or another.

Space... The final frontier... These are the Voyagers of the HasLab enterprise...

william-james88 wrote:

whacko wrote:

Star Saber isn't any larger or more complicated than either Jetfire or Sky Lynx, both of which I also own, but the set does come with a Victory Leo which looks like a more or less basic voyager class figure

Which basic voyagers have 3 modes and the ability to split apart and recombine in 2 different configurations?

Also, this project is open to the entire globe and Haslab serves more than just north america. Please look things up before posting falsehoods.

So by your argument Modulators/Weaponizers/Fossilizers should cost more than other Deluxe class figures because they have robot, vehicle/base modes and break apart to form weapons and armor? Also, we've had voyager class triple changers in Titans Return and Power of the Primes. They were priced the same as any other voyager even though they had 3 forms and not just 2.

Haslab isn't open to the entire globe. I forgot that they expanded to the UK but the Haslab website states that they only ship to North America and the UK, and that is very far from "open to the entire globe."

https://hasbropulse.com/pages/shipping-return-policy

https://uk.hasbropulse.com/pages/delivery-return-policy

I guess people could back the project, have the product shipped to a U.S./CA or U.K address and then have a peson or company ship it to their country for them, but that isn't exactly the same thing as being "open to the entire globe."

o.supreme wrote:
Victory Saber (Like Unicron) will presumably only have one use, and not be used to make repaints of other characters because none really fit that mold

whacko wrote:I am worried that projects like this will drive up prices across the board for Hasbro toys. If collectors are continually willing to pay more for less product, Hasbro has no reason to stop offering us more to keep customers happy. People complained when the new WFC series began and toys of all classes shrunk significantly but the quality bumped up a bit so people justified it. How much more are people willing to justify before we're back to get crap toys as premium prices like we did in 2015 when Combiner Wars was the current toy line?

This is a lot of conjecture and opinion. Just because YOU didn't like CW doesn't mean everyone felt the same way, also the prices of the toys back then were less expensive. the main issue most seem to have with CW was it's repetition. Still, it did not suffer form many of the overall QC issues that WFC toys have had.

Smaller independent retailers like Super 7 do this all the time. Their toys are way more expensive because they are selling to a smaller market, so before they make a mold and produce a toy, they have to absolutely know it is going to be profitable first. Whether or not Victory Saber will be 2, 3 or more times it's current value in the secondary market is of little concern to me as well. Still I'd rather have this Haslab Project, than convention and club exclusives that were far more expensive, yet no new molds were made, except for perhaps a small head swap tool on occasion.

Still nobody is under obligation. If you don't want to purchase one, then by all means don't. I didn't purchase Unicron for various reasons already stated, but I am very happy for those that did, and are satisfied with it. Victory Saber (Star Saber and Victory Leo), happen to be characters I've wanted modern updates for a very long time, and frankly never thought would happen. Also It is priced in a range that is reasonable for *me* (not everyone will agree) so yes I am, giving this Haslab my support.

I am not saying that people didn't like Combiner Wars. I have nearly every Combiner Wars toy sold, and many of the Unite Warriors versions as well.

However it isn't conjecture or opinion to state that those toys were significantly lower quality than Transformers toys that came immediately before the series or since. Plastic was thinner, articulation was extremely limited on deluxe class figures, joints were weak across the field, mold reuse was taken to crazy levels, and over the last 5-7 years the plastic of the deluxe class toys has become brittle and begun to decay. Plastic decays over time anyway, but I have toys from 2003 that are still in nearly new condition while many of my Combiner Wars toys have cracks just from being in storage.

I have basically all of the WFC toys as well, and while they haven't been free from QC issues the overall quality of the toys is much higher than Combiner Wars was. Not just with regards to design and articulation (remember, many CW deluxes didn't even have real FEET!), but also plastic quality and durability for the most part.

As I've stated I have already backed the Victory Saber campaign, but I think that this particular figure could have been released in the mainline at mainline prices instead of being crowd funded at the current $180 price point. I still don't see $180 worth of toy in this campaign yet. Maybe paint and additional accessories would add value but it would be nice if Hasbro was more forthcoming with those details BEFORE the crowd funding campaign ends.

I bet the "full value" of the toy will only be reached once all tiers get unlocked.

whacko wrote:

o.supreme wrote:
Victory Saber (Like Unicron) will presumably only have one use, and not be used to make repaints of other characters because none really fit that mold

whacko wrote:I am worried that projects like this will drive up prices across the board for Hasbro toys. If collectors are continually willing to pay more for less product, Hasbro has no reason to stop offering us more to keep customers happy. People complained when the new WFC series began and toys of all classes shrunk significantly but the quality bumped up a bit so people justified it. How much more are people willing to justify before we're back to get crap toys as premium prices like we did in 2015 when Combiner Wars was the current toy line?

This is a lot of conjecture and opinion. Just because YOU didn't like CW doesn't mean everyone felt the same way, also the prices of the toys back then were less expensive. the main issue most seem to have with CW was it's repetition. Still, it did not suffer form many of the overall QC issues that WFC toys have had.

Smaller independent retailers like Super 7 do this all the time. Their toys are way more expensive because they are selling to a smaller market, so before they make a mold and produce a toy, they have to absolutely know it is going to be profitable first. Whether or not Victory Saber will be 2, 3 or more times it's current value in the secondary market is of little concern to me as well. Still I'd rather have this Haslab Project, than convention and club exclusives that were far more expensive, yet no new molds were made, except for perhaps a small head swap tool on occasion.

Still nobody is under obligation. If you don't want to purchase one, then by all means don't. I didn't purchase Unicron for various reasons already stated, but I am very happy for those that did, and are satisfied with it. Victory Saber (Star Saber and Victory Leo), happen to be characters I've wanted modern updates for a very long time, and frankly never thought would happen. Also It is priced in a range that is reasonable for *me* (not everyone will agree) so yes I am, giving this Haslab my support.

I am not saying that people didn't like Combiner Wars. I have nearly every Combiner Wars toy sold, and many of the Unite Warriors versions as well.

However it isn't conjecture or opinion to state that those toys were significantly lower quality than Transformers toys that came immediately before the series or since. Plastic was thinner, articulation was extremely limited on deluxe class figures, joints were weak across the field, mold reuse was taken to crazy levels, and over the last 5-7 years the plastic of the deluxe class toys has become brittle and begun to decay. Plastic decays over time anyway, but I have toys from 2003 that are still in nearly new condition while many of my Combiner Wars toys have cracks just from being in storage.

I have basically all of the WFC toys as well, and while they haven't been free from QC issues the overall quality of the toys is much higher than Combiner Wars was. Not just with regards to design and articulation (remember, many CW deluxes didn't even have real FEET!), but also plastic quality and durability for the most part.

As I've stated I have already backed the Victory Saber campaign, but I think that this particular figure could have been released in the mainline at mainline prices instead of being crowd funded at the current $180 price point. I still don't see $180 worth of toy in this campaign yet. Maybe paint and additional accessories would add value but it would be nice if Hasbro was more forthcoming with those details BEFORE the crowd funding campaign ends.

If I may, third party websites are already selling the toy as well (their backing numbers are added towards the end, same as with Unicron) so, yes given the spread of websites that are offering Starsaber, I would say it's world wide.

Also cw was designed to feature heavy mold reuse as that was how Warden pitched it to get Hasbro's approval, hence why he was allowed to do more in future lines culminating in his Swan song of the WfC Trilogy.

If hasbro had wanted this to be mainline retail, it would have been mainline retall (and likely suffered as a result, same as leader class Rodimus Prime would have) however Hashro clearly didn't feel like it would sell (I don't think they were wrong.)

Part of the problem here is one of comparison, you keep comparing to mainline retail Price points, which have been evolving these past few years to give priority to bot mode scale. You may as well compare apples to oranges for all the good it will do.

However, this is your choice at the end of the day, and as pointed out, you won't have a hard time flipping it after the fact (along as you don't go too stupid with the asking price like some people with unicron)

Well, looks like Hasbro might be starting to add international orders? Cause it just jumped up from roughly 6000 backers to 7345 backers. Good news is that puts us at roughly 67% of the way there, but the bad news is I'm not sure if that was one burst of backers from one site/country, or if that was ALL of the international backers that he had

That is a good question. Online retailers are a bit mixed. Robot Kingdom is still taking pre-orders. TF Source says their pre-order listing is "sold out", while BBTS, EE, and HLJ don't even have it available for pre-order yet. Perhaps they are still negotiating? We can only hope this includes some of the international pre-orders so far, and not all of them. It would be nice when large bumps like this occurred if Hasbro gave some sort of indication of the source of the backing. Also, you know TT is going to have to have some official way to distribute this to customers in Japan. It would be almost inconceivable to me, to think they would want only 1,200 or so, just using last nights bump as a "what if" example.

The nice thing is we are officially 2/3 of the way there now.

Whacko, your Combiner Wars toys are deteriorating? What kind of climate do you live in? How are you storing your figures? I’ve moved 3 times over the past few years, with my figures going into and out of storage as I pack and unpack them between houses, and nothing has broken, or even suffered so much as a stress mark. Your case seems more unique than ubiquitous so far.

My guess is that the large jump we saw last night was from a site or sites similar to TF Source that closed their pre-orders and already knows their total that they will be ordering.

Sentinel_Primal wrote:Well, looks like Hasbro might be starting to add international orders? Cause it just jumped up from roughly 6000 backers to 7345 backers. Good news is that puts us at roughly 67% of the way there, but the bad news is I'm not sure if that was one burst of backers from one site/country, or if that was ALL of the international backers that he had

We at least know it hasn’t gone up in Japan yet, so that isn’t all of the international orders

whacko wrote:How many Commander Class Kingdom Rodimus Prime toys did Hasbro manufacture? Do you know for certain that they made more than 11,000 of them? How would the economy of scale of that figure be significantly different than this figure?

We can make an educated guess that it's considerably more than that. In the US it's being sold in both Walmart and Target stores (whether or not they actually get to the shelf is another story). And no, this isn't very scientific, it's just an example of retail potential. There are 4,740 Walmarts and 1,914 Targets, if each store is allotted 2 figures you're already at 13,308 potential figures at retail in the US and that's just two retailers in physical stores in the US alone. Add in online retailers like Walmart, Target, Amazon, Pulse, BBTS, etc. and you'll possibly doubled that number. Then you factor in world wide sales and you probably aren't that far from 80K or more.

o.supreme wrote:TF Source says their pre-order listing is "sold out", while BBTS, EE, and HLJ don't even have it available for pre-order yet.

BBTS aside, EE wont get it since they're a regular retailer that doesn't do special orders like this, they've never offered a HasLab product. HLJ wont get it, it'll be a Takara Tomy Mall exclusive in Japan like Unicron.

Nemesis Primal wrote:Does anyone else find it odd how little they're advertising this Haslab compared to the others? Like, sure they did the FFF reveal for it and they showed the prototype at that expo, but they didn't send out an email notification for that livestream before or after the fact, or any of the seemingly incessant HasLab emails they've sent for Unicron, Galactus, etc that I was getting regardless of the fact that I hadn't backed any of them.

It does feel like they could be trying harder. They announced the FFF would be happening via email, but that's really the only email they've sent out that has anything to do with this. They posted the Japanese Victory logo back in July and the week before the reveal they posted "Let's say GO!" on Facebook, but that was basically it leading up. Seems like they're mostly using social media this time. I'm guessing the next update will be for the second stretch goal, but there's no telling if they'll announce that before or after the first one is unlocked.

Emerje

Wolfman Jake wrote:Whacko, your Combiner Wars toys are deteriorating? What kind of climate do you live in? How are you storing your figures? I’ve moved 3 times over the past few years, with my figures going into and out of storage as I pack and unpack them between houses, and nothing has broken, or even suffered so much as a stress mark. Your case seems more unique than ubiquitous so far.

Not to derail or anything, but I've had several cw figures just degrade and break, the red aerialbot's nosecone screw-hole area and two silverbolts (the combiner neck plate hinge and the nosecones and near the antennae) all within a year or so of owning them, and just having them in a standard house environment

Anyone else thinking of buying a second one to make an easy buck?

The way I see it, everybody wins. One more gets ordered, adding to what's needed to reach a tier and unlike Scalping, you buying more does not limit anyone from getting one. Then, since we know this item is limited, can only be bought once, and won't be available at retail, it is certain that not everyone who might be interested in this cool toy one day is ordering one now. So there's a nice opportunity to sell this toy at a markup later.

As with all toys that were once easy to get but now are not.

That would be logical....
Hmmmm.....

I think I will cancel my order, then back two. The shipping price for two will barely be different from one.

I have been considering a second one. I'll need to see how the finances line up next month before pulling the trigger.

-Kanrabat- wrote:That would be logical....
Hmmmm.....

I think I will cancel my order, then back two. The shipping price for two will barely be different from one.

Yeah, if we sell our second copy at a markup that covers the shipping and taxes, then we are already a winner. I will do that too. While this toy is expensive, it's not crazy like Unicron or Galactus so buying 2 is doable.

It certainly would be a good investment, even if it takes a year to get the item, and say, waiting a couple months or even up to as long as another year after it arrives to sell it again to profit. I just wonder if someone took the same $200 and invested in a specific stock if it would be a better course of action? The only thing I would suggest is; yes, get more than one if you can afford to fully pay for it. Paying for it with a Credit Card, you would surely lose money as the interest compounded in not paying it off would be a losing endeavor. I am fortunate in that I probably *could* afford to purchase more than one now. However I am always monitoring eBay for items on my want list, and and extra $200 could cross one of those off my list at any given moment, so I probably wont. I've noticed the number of backers has been really slow the past few days, but I am also aware many international orders have not yet been offered, let alone counted. I wonder what Hasbro is waiting for? Plus some people get paid bi-monthly. I would hope to see a little uptick this weekend. I am merely waiting for October 1st. I will be getting a new bank card at that time, and figure it better to order on the new card, then order on the one I have now, and have to reverify in a year. The only outstanding Pulse pre-orders I have currently are Artfire and Black Zarak, which I kind of knew from the beginning I'd have to reverify based on the expiration of my current card.