The Energon Pub

So I've been thinking about Pretenders. On the one hand, the original toys kinda sucked- the inner robots were dreadful and the outer shells were bricks. On the other hand, some of the shell designs were pretty awesome, and they played a major part in the classic comics (and the Japanese cartoon continuity). The Pretenders definitely deserve some form of homage, but the question is, how?

There's 4 ways of doing it as far as I can see.

1: The PWTT approach- the shell is a standalone figure, with the robot represented by a little transforming tech drone that can become weapons for the "shell" and also form a backpack. Whilst innovative, this perhaps isn't quite the right approach for Transformers (although it works fine IMO for the original universe PWTT created).

2: The small figure/big shell approach- either the inner Transformer is very very small (about Legends size) or the articulated shell is very very large. In either case, the inner robot could curl up inside the chest of the shell, which due to its size would retain plenty of articulation. The problem with this is that if the inner robot was anything larger than a Deluxe, it would get pretty expensive, and the "tiny robot" solution would only really work with Legends displays.

3: The snap-on approach- instead of an actual shell, the figure would come with snap-on armour pieces for robot mode which would make it resemble the shell design. The problem I can see with this is it could end up looking very half-hearted or disjointed, and it might not work with certain transformations.

4: The homage approach- rather than actually including a separate shell, the figure would be a "normal" Transformer with a robot mode that homaged the shell design (ROTF Bludgeon as an example). Whilst for some figures this would work (the Monster Pretenders had mediocre inner robots anyway, and it would make sense to just give them monster modes based on their shells with appropriately organic and grotesque robot/combined modes arising from this) I personally feel some designs deserve more than simple lipservice. Skullgrin for example deserves more than new colours and a new head on the Straxus mold.

Personally? I think the ideal solution depends very much on the Pretender in question. Bludgeon is already accounted for with the fantastic HFTD mold and as such needs no updates. Thunderwing has a decent figure, but said figure is far too small- if a 3rd party were to do something similar to the HasTak figure but larger then I'd be satisfied. I've already mentioned how I think the Monster Pretenders/Monstructor should be done. Skullgrin and Bloodbath, however, have such bestial (and awesome) shell designs that relegating them to "regular toy with a design homage" territory presents issues- notably, getting them to transform into an even remotely convincing vehicle mode whilst maintaining the design of their original shells. Also, in the case of Skullgrin, part of his character is the duality between his inner robot and the persona he takes on in his shell.

Here are a few examples of how I think the characters should be handled.

Cloudburst: Homage approach (his inner robot is fairly similar to his outer shell's design, which due to being very mechanical should be easy to replicate on a transforming figure).
Skullgrin: Tiny robot/huge shell approach (See above. The duality of his character actually works quite well with the "tiny robot" option- the idea of the colossal, ravening beast hiding a physically puny robot is strangely intriguing).
Submarauder: Homage approach? (His inner robot's vehicle mode is...utterly nonsensical. However, it does resemble a horseshoe crab quite a bit, and having a giant crustacean turn into a monstrous fishman would work quite well I think, especially with his fascination with the sea).
Octopunch: ...I have no idea. He turns into a crab already, so perhaps the snap-on armour approach would work best?

Anyway, your thoughts?

I've already advocated the snap-on armor approach in the Thunderwing thread, but I'll elaborate a bit more here.

Basically, I see it done best like City Commander. That transformed Voyager Prime into a very, VERY different looking robot. So much so that, just from the front, you couldn't even tell which version of the mould you're using.

The main drawback is that, unlike CC, the armor bits do nothing at all outside of being armor. Maybe you could make some kind of excuse "tank" more or "spaceship" mode, but I doubt it.

However, I agree that it wouldn't work best for all characters. The Bludgeon we have (and even the voyager with those upgrades) is a great looking bot.

The hardest ones to really pull off - with the Pretender concept intact in any way - are the human pretenders. The Club did Metalhawk and, outside of it being a kinda goofy one-off figure, it didn't really work too well, IMO. I can't really see any way of retaining the Pretender concept with those outside of a face (or head) swapping gimmick and small bits of armor that would really just be kibble outside of the figure itself, even moreso than a monster armor idea.

http://fate8.blogspot.ca/2008/04/trans- ... lebee.html
Or you could split the difference. I almost forgot about this - the Trans scanning figures from the first movie. It has a lot in common with a Pretender. This may be an interesting way to tackle the concept. I can see this sort of figure working well for the beat Pretenders too if you have duplicate parts for both robot and organic beast modes. I dunno if this'd work with Human Pretenders too (maybe).

I really liked the Classics approach that were mixes of both the robot and shell.

But For guys like say Grimlock, I would really like a damn good inner robot, with snap on armor, because I love the look of both incarnations.

This isn't just a Pretenders question - it's an Action Master question, a Target Masters question, a Head Masters question - really any characters that aren't traditional Transformers.

I tend to align with the Classics/Generations interpretation, when they're done right. I think one of the reasons figures like ROTF voyager Bludgeon work really well is because the movie style helps the armored up, other-worldy look take shape. That's also why I use Botcon SG Octopunch as Classics Octopunch - the movie aesthetic is a great avenue for integrating Pretenders' 'monster' and 'robot' aspects.

I don't have issues with Generations Thunderwing or Skullgrin - both work fine, they just needed to be bigger. Voyager-size works best for most Pretenders.

If anything, I like how Action Masters are being reintegrated into the regular Generations ranks. Axor/Circuit are prime examples, but that mold is simply amazing, so it might be unfair.

Would like to see something similar to what ROTF HFTD Voyager Bludgeon's toy was.

Thought Generations Deluxe Thunderwing was a okay toy. But wanted it to be a Voyager class toy or bigger.

Honestly don't see the harm in using HasTak's evolved CHUG Pretender toy idea. But making the toy bigger like Voyager, Ultra or Leader class. So it can fit a Minicon or Legends toy inside the Robot torso cavity. The main big toy can still look like HFTD Bludgeon or Generations Thunderwing. Just add a mini toy. The bigger the toy, the bigger the mini figure can become by default, to squeeze into a cavity in the robot torso.

Does the inner robot need to be their for a CHUG styled evolved fusion pretender plus inner robot toy? No. Don't think 30th Voyager Brainstorm's headmaster partner was needed on a obvious IDW character design. That has no organic binary headmaster nebulan partner. Just add it in as a bonus for nostalgia. To please old school G1 fans. If new school fans don't want the old school gimmick tiny inner robot for the evolved pretender. then they can throw the tiny toy out, give it away or keep it in storage.

I’m happy with Hasbro’s approach to “Pretenders”. Keep in mind that Hasbro’s approach only works with Decepticon Pretender shells. Botcon Metalhawk was proof that Autobot pretender shells need to stay forgotten in time. I don’t want to see MOTU style action figures that make flesh creatures the character and the robot an afterthought. And I definitely don’t want to see the Hero Mashers concept used in a cheesy attempt to sell endless combinations of repaints.

No, Please don't want anything similar to what PWTTOO is doing with their pretenders idea.

Having the inner robot for the Pretender with no articulation and as a parts former for the bigger pretender shell. Is not what I think a G1 Pretender toy is.

Think the PWTTOO's toy idea. Was taken from the AOE Construct bots toy line for the BMOG toys. and also taken from the Hasbro Hero Smashers toy lines for the PWTTOO Pretenders. Where the BMOG inner robot is just a beast that snaps aparts and acts as armor for the bigger robot. Like the AOE Constructs bots Dinosaurs do for the bigger robot in the toy set. The Bigger PWTTOO pretenders remind me of Hasbro's Hero smahers toy line idea.

Well, Hasbro's take on the Pretenders removes the Pretender part entirely. Just for the sake of argument, in theory are there any other approaches that could work as Neo Pretender ideas?

I can't think of any other way to make the Pretender concept work other than the ways mentioned. Despite the difficulty it'd be neat to see a 3rd party take it on.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Well, Hasbro's take on the Pretenders removes the Pretender part entirely. Just for the sake of argument, in theory are there any other approaches that could work as Neo Pretender ideas?

I can't think of any other way to make the Pretender concept work other than the ways mentioned. Despite the difficulty it'd be neat to see a 3rd party take it on.

I got an idea...

Make the robots the focal point, not the pretender shells. Make robots that have full articulation. Created helmets and armor that snap on to the robot to make it look like the 1980's pretenders shells. Like Maiden Japan did for ROTF Bludgon.

Rated X wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Well, Hasbro's take on the Pretenders removes the Pretender part entirely. Just for the sake of argument, in theory are there any other approaches that could work as Neo Pretender ideas?

I can't think of any other way to make the Pretender concept work other than the ways mentioned. Despite the difficulty it'd be neat to see a 3rd party take it on.

I got an idea...

Make the robots the focal point, not the pretender shells. Make robots that have full articulation. Created helmets and armor that snap on to the robot to make it look like the 1980's pretenders shells. Like Maiden Japan did for ROTF Bludgon.

Dude, YES! I'm still sad that I missed out on that Bludgeon add-on kit. I haven't really thought about it lately, but I really liked it.

Rated X wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Well, Hasbro's take on the Pretenders removes the Pretender part entirely. Just for the sake of argument, in theory are there any other approaches that could work as Neo Pretender ideas?

I can't think of any other way to make the Pretender concept work other than the ways mentioned. Despite the difficulty it'd be neat to see a 3rd party take it on.

I got an idea...

Make the robots the focal point, not the pretender shells. Make robots that have full articulation. Created helmets and armor that snap on to the robot to make it look like the 1980's pretenders shells. Like Maiden Japan did for ROTF Bludgon.

Think the problem with this idea is. None of the non Classics Pretenders. Have iconic memorable robot modes that fans care about. Most of those inner robots had the equivelant of Generic easily forgetable robot designs.

Snap on armor that does nothing but gets set to the side. Fans don't like.

Think the only reason MMC Catilla Felis Saber was successful. Was due to many key factors like. MMC Felis saber biggest selling point was it combined with Feral Rex. Don't think many would have bought it if it was a stand alone toy. Their is a huge shortage of G1 Mechanical beast bots in the CHUG toy line, So desire for them is really high. Think inner pretender beast bots are more rare than inner pretenders vehicle bots, So demand was higher for the inner pretender beast bots.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:

Rated X wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Well, Hasbro's take on the Pretenders removes the Pretender part entirely. Just for the sake of argument, in theory are there any other approaches that could work as Neo Pretender ideas?

I can't think of any other way to make the Pretender concept work other than the ways mentioned. Despite the difficulty it'd be neat to see a 3rd party take it on.

I got an idea...

Make the robots the focal point, not the pretender shells. Make robots that have full articulation. Created helmets and armor that snap on to the robot to make it look like the 1980's pretenders shells. Like Maiden Japan did for ROTF Bludgon.

Think the problem with this idea is. None of the non Classics Pretenders. Have iconic memorable robot modes that fans care about. Most of those inner robots had the equivelant of Generic easily forgetable robot designs.

Snap on armor that does nothing but gets set to the side. Fans don't like.

Think the only reason MMC Catilla Felis Saber was successful. Was due to many key factors like. MMC Felis saber biggest selling point was it combined with Feral Rex. Don't think many would have bought it if it was a stand alone toy. Their is a huge shortage of G1 Mechanical beast bots in the CHUG toy line, So desire for them is really high. Think inner pretender beast bots are more rare than inner pretenders vehicle bots, So demand was higher for the inner pretender beast bots.

You may be right about the pretender robots. But only because they never made the G1 cartoon and had distinct personalities. Alot of the G1 vintage brick toys sucked, but their cartoon personalities sold the toys like hotcakes. The seekers are the classic example. I bought MMC Felisaber with no intention of ever combining him with Feral Rex. I don't need a bulky Divebomb backpack. Felisaber is sitting in my pile of loot now, but when I get him, I will display himwith my other Hasbro Pretender homages.

Of the three Pretenders I have - Skullgrin, Chain Claw, and Landmine - none have their Pretender shells. And the only shell I think was great of those I had was Skullgrin. Even so I'd really want attention paid to that inner robot. Nobody wants something useless as part of their pricy toy.

Still, people may want the inner robots. Pretenders were just popular enough to still be really known as their own characters, unlike most Micromasters. So I think there may be a market for the inner robots. Except for characters who are really known for the shells - and that's the Decepticons if we're really naming names.

Pretenders is a really flawed concept. All modes are really hampered by the gimmick. Every single method you go for has flaws.

Homage with shell robot mode sand vehicle modes (the official approach) - Not really a Pretender. Unworkable for the non-monster Pretenders.

Snap on armor (ala City Commander or the Bludgeon armor) - You have left over bits.

Articulated "shell" with a Mini-con/Legends inner figure / with a mini figure that becomes a weapon - The actual robot "transformer" is compromised while the shell is fully realised.

I was thinking, however, that the snap on armor could be made to have a nice display when unused.
http://www.gundamplanet.com/saint-seiya ... cloth.html
Like this.

Think if HasTak made Voyager class animal Pretenders. For Catilla, chainclaw, Snarler and Carnivac. That were done in the Beastwars Organic beast mode style. that had animal organic pretender shells that Transformed into robot modes. With a Minicon Robotic beast that transformed into a robot hidden inside the pretender shell torso cavity . Think many fans would happily buy these Voyager toys for the USA retail $24 price. Think HasTak might even be able to save money in the budget. By simply reusing some of the CHUG Animal bot minicons. Don't see many spending over $80 for Third party toys using this idea.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Think if HasTak made Voyager class animal Pretenders. For Catilla, chainclaw, Snarler and Carnivac. That were done in the Beastwars Organic beast mode style. that had animal organic pretender shells that Transformed into robot modes. With a Minicon Robotic beast that transformed into a robot hidden inside the pretender shell torso cavity . Think many fans would happily buy these Voyager toys for the USA retail $24 price. Think HasTak might even be able to save money in the budget. By simply reusing some of the CHUG Animal bot minicons. Don't see many spending over $80 for Third party toys using this idea.

We have $90 Autobot clones and pricy Headmasters. I really didn't think either was popular enough to warrant 3rd prices, but here we are.

Really, that Kickstarter project came really, really close.

Well, I already contested the whole minicon inner robot idea from the get go, so just shifting that to animals doesn't really work for me. I mean ... Minicons suck all on their own. Maketoy's Swerve didn't suck, but it's hard to see a guy like Thunderwing being so tiny as a robot. That's just disappointing, the same way the old inner robots were.

I have thought about those old Beast Wars moulds. That's a missed opportunity for a Botcon set. Again, though .... that's not really a Pretender.

Edit:
I think it's also worth noting that, outside of Bludgeon and Thunderwing, it's unlikely Hasbro will ever tackle Pretender as their own unique moulds. We should really focus on 3rd Party solutions. Because Hasbro's not gonna give us much. Recolors / remoulds at best.

It would be veeeeeeery difficult to implement the Pretender concept today as we have a very vocal (albeit minority) who complain about this and that about articulation, price and scale.

In Masterforce, it was kind of surprising how Takara used the sentai/Gatchaman approach and a bit of mass shifting to sell the figs. People would say wha? "A human size being wearing combat armor would be carrying within him a 60 foot tall robotic alien being?" Yet it's okay for Soundwave to shrink and be carried by a teenager?

A fully poseable shell is impossible if you follow the original concept. They'll have to be static figures with articulation maybe confined to his arms and maybe the head.

Focus on the core robot (all the 1st and 2nd release Pretenders were slim in build.......kind of like Arcee) that can fit into the static shell.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Think if HasTak made Voyager class animal Pretenders. For Catilla, chainclaw, Snarler and Carnivac. That were done in the Beastwars Organic beast mode style. that had animal organic pretender shells that Transformed into robot modes. With a Minicon Robotic beast that transformed into a robot hidden inside the pretender shell torso cavity . Think many fans would happily buy these Voyager toys for the USA retail $24 price. Think HasTak might even be able to save money in the budget. By simply reusing some of the CHUG Animal bot minicons. Don't see many spending over $80 for Third party toys using this idea.

We have $90 Autobot clones and pricy Headmasters. I really didn't think either was popular enough to warrant 3rd prices, but here we are.

Really, that Kickstarter project came really, really close.

Well, I already contested the whole minicon inner robot idea from the get go, so just shifting that to animals doesn't really work for me. I mean ... Minicons suck all on their own. Maketoy's Swerve didn't suck, but it's hard to see a guy like Thunderwing being so tiny as a robot. That's just disappointing, the same way the old inner robots were.

I have thought about those old Beast Wars moulds. That's a missed opportunity for a Botcon set. Again, though .... that's not really a Pretender.

Edit:
I think it's also worth noting that, outside of Bludgeon and Thunderwing, it's unlikely Hasbro will ever tackle Pretender as their own unique moulds. We should really focus on 3rd Party solutions. Because Hasbro's not gonna give us much. Recolors / remoulds at best.

Think doing a Third party MP Leader class G1 Thunderwing toy might be a good idea. Because of the bigger toy class. might be possible to shove a fully articulated legends class maybe basic class toy. inside the pretender shell cavity. Don't think doing a Deluxe inner robot would be possible for a leader shell.

Think giving G1 Thunderwing a Leader class toy is appropriate. As the G1 toy was big. G1 Thunderwing in the Marvel comics was shown as a huge robot.

I MIGHT be happy with the new Legends class size of robot; the way Maketoy made Swerve. It may be possible if a portion of the robot could stick out the back; like a reverse Star Saber or Powermaster Prime. Maybe there could be flaps that close like doors if you take the robot out?

But I gotta admit, I really wouldn't want any part of a leader Pretender to be tiny. Not the "shell" portion and not the inner robot.

Of course, in the absence of anything else, I'd take anything. I'd have bought PWTT's Skullgrin and Landmine.

Yeah, the Pretender concept is not an easy one to replicate. I just kinda feel that they deserve at least some recognition, even if it's simple lip service.

Whilst I'm generally vehemently opposed to kibble that does nothing outside of one mode, I think it's fair to say that with any approach, the "shell" (whatever it may be) would have to be set aside when not in use. Unless you got really clever (so for example, with a Skullgrin figure, had an inner robot that turned into a tank, snap-on armour that made his robot mode resemble his shell complete with skull-head, and said snap-on armour could form accessories for the tank mode to make it resemble some knd of Mad Max/GWAR satanic hell-skull-tank of death) or just went the "homage to the outer shell" route instead, the shell-figure/snap on armour would have to be relegated to the parts bin.

I still want a Submarauder that has a robot mode like his shell and transforms into a monstrous horseshoe crab though. I mean, look at his "submarine" mode!




What can I say, the more crabs the better.

I still like the inner robot with an action figure shell idea.

Yes, I agree that the larges the inner bot could be would legends class, but I'm OK with that.

Transformers are robots, they can be lots of sizes.

The thought of some of the smaller bots donning larger suits completely works IMO.

Now, I get that scale becomes an issue because Grimlock, Jazz and Bumblebee were pretenders, but ... well, you can't have everything. For the majority of the pretenders, that were their own characters, it works.

Thunderwing is a bit of an odd character, even among pretenders, in that his shell transformed too. That could totally work to make that character interesting. A transforming Voyager figure with a companion transforming Legends figure is something I would be into buying.

I think PWTT was close to having it right. But it is clear they spent very little time on the "inner" robots, and for the most part failed to make them look like their inspirational counterparts. I thought he backpack solution was an OK compromise, and I was planning to have legends figures or minicons that were closer to the original inner bots substituted right away.

rpetras wrote: Thunderwing is a bit of an odd character, even among pretenders, in that his shell transformed too. That could totally work to make that character interesting. A transforming Voyager figure with a companion transforming Legends figure is something I would be into buying.

Thinking a Voyager toy might be too small to stuff a Legends toy inside a shell cavity. Calculating only a Minicon can get put in their.

Speculating if you want a Legends class or basic toy stuffed inside a cavity in the Pretender shell toy. Guessing the Pretender shell needs to be at least Ultra or Leader class.

When I say Cavity, I'm referring to Two doors opening and closing to allow a Minicon or Legends or Basic toy to fit into a cavity in the shell.

Not referring to the entire pretender shell getting split down the middle sideways into two front back halves. Like the Regular Pretenders shells were.

Would like the Legends or minicon or basic to fit inside a shell like the G1 Mega Pretender inner robots did. Suppose a recent example is how CW Minimus Ambus fits into the cavity in that CW Leader Ultra Magnus suit of armor. Or how the Two inch BrainMaster fits into the chest cavity of that Voyager class smaller red jet bot toy.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Thinking a Voyager toy might be too small to stuff a Legends toy inside a shell cavity. Calculating only a Minicon can get put in their.

If the inner and outer parts were engineered for the combination, I think it would be do-able with legends size figures.

Why not have a face plate the spins around ala-Animated Blitzwing? Human\alien one side and bot the other. I'd be tempted to have something similar to the G1 Super-Pretenders and have snap-on accessories that worked in both robot and vehicle mode, to provide the 'shell' experience, without anything being potentially lost, whilst making sure the main robot and its alt-mode were both recognizable

:edit: - to expand. Say I have Landmine and I have some armor parts and a gun that can fit onto the buggy to upgrade him into a armored car or they could snap together into a small gun-tarantula.

IMO there was nothing wrong with Hasbro's original approach, it simply needs updating. I'd like to see a deluxe robot in a larger shell and both being articulated.

Similar to the Voyager toy MMC made for Felisaber Catilla. Think if MMC or another Third party. Made voyager toys for the inner Pretenders Snarler, Chainclaw and Carnivac that transformed. Think some might buy them. If they could all combine with Feral rex as replacements limbs, Think they'd sell a bit better.