The Energon Pub

Feel free to post. Why this new thread, well, for all intents and purposes, 3rd party rides on the coat tails of the official products. FP did well with CC for UM. But what's getting ridiculous is that back then, even CC got KOed.

Then I hear an opinion about KOs makers give the real manufacturers pause to improve their products(?). Though its logic escapes me as KO DON'T really follow and QC for that matter. (Though in the case of Encore/G1 Metroplex, Tomy did sucker punch the KO companies by releasing him, Metroplex, out of the blue. Was it because of the KO Metroplex making it's rounds or just coincidental that Encore Metroplex mold was also available............still waiting for Encore Scorponok btw)

3rd party companies do maintain some street cred with the QC like FP, Maketoys etc.

Feel free to post so as to keep focus on a particular subject.

I bought a KO City Commander, and KO Henkei Seekers... I since have re-bought the official versions of both. The KO's were just too floppy. So I regret both KO purchases.

I think HasTak has been good about reissuing things the past few years so there isn't as much of a need for KO's. Old Generations figures are being re run by Hasbro Asia, and MP's seem to get 2 or 3 runs back to back.

Sometimes the upsized Ko's or crazy recolors are tempting, but so far I haven't bit on any.

There's only 2 kinds of KO/counterfeit I'd be willing to buy:

1: Hilarious poundshop crap like the kind Thew occasionally showcases, as it's so often hilarious that you can forgive it for crumbling in your hands. If the quality is actually high enough that it can be serviceable custom fodder then even better. It also helps that most of them are so obviously knockoffs that there is no way you're going to buy them instead of the real thing- I'm certainly not going to replace a genuine set of Protectobots with a cheap set of Safey Converters now am I?

2: I have some sympathy for "ethical" bootlegging, when a toy is long out of production and the original maker isn't going to be making anymore any time soon because either the company no longer exists or the molds have decayed beyond use or whatever. For example, if a bunch of fans in China were to get hold of an intact G1 Mirage and go "Hey, this guy's molds are gone and he's super hard to find, let's reverse engineer some molds from this toy and reproduce him! That way at least fans can get the closest thing to an actual reissue possible, and we can keep the figure "preserved" so to speak!" I wouldn't have a problem with that- HasTak aren't losing revenue from it as Mirage has long since gone out of production and they are unable to reissue him. I view this kind of "toy conservation" similarly to recasting vintage miniatures- if it isn't hurting the creators and it keeps the sculpts "alive" then it's fine.

What I DON'T approve of is when bootleggers take an existing, very much in production figure and make low-quality counterfeits, sometimes resized or otherwise altered, and resell them for reduced prices, thus depriving the original creators of any revenue and ultimately driving companies out of business. It's basically theft and I refuse to buy counterfeits.

Then of course you have the mythical 4 Star, who made some incredible KOs with surprisingly high quality and practically every single piece heavily retooled. I kinda want to own one of their toys, especially one of their Dinobots, as they're original enough (and AFAIK very high quality) that I can sort of forgive them (helps that they're so heavily modified that they're quite clearly meant to be original characters rather than just low-quality copies).

My opinion on 3rd Party stuff has always been that they're a collection enhancement. Is most of it pretty good? Yes. Is it needed? No.

In the last couple of years Hasbro has made a concerted effort into filling up rosters - be it the 1984 Cast, or the Movie cast, or the IDW cast - they're all being put out by Hasbro (for the most part). 2 years ago, proper Gestalts were a pipe dream and now we have Combiner Wars to fill that niche so we don't need 3rd Party gestalts on our shelves anymore. It's a very interesting time to be a TF Collector.

Where I think we'll see 3rd parties in the next few years will be homaging the Japanese era characters. Sure, we'll see some from The Club, but I find it unlikely that they'll every really be re-done by official sources.

KO replicas can pretty much suck it. However, I have a KO MP Ratbat awaiting my return home, and the KO Dino-cassettes are standing proudly, so I'm not 100% clean.

Just as guilty that I previously owned some high end KOs. Back then they were not available (Devastar) so I bit (I got the original WJ and Grimlock I purchased in ebay). But now, if officially available..........well don't want to pass judgement.Though if you can buy the official MPs (because, if Tomy don't earn squat, they'll no longer schedule new releases for the MP line)

On the logic of KO putting the official companies on notice, well, it only happened once with Encore Metroplex. Too bad this was not the case on Scorponok. I still haven't seen another example of this possibly happening.

3rd party is kind of Blurred lines as I love FP and other high quality companies take on some characters. Especially on not Broadside and Fascist Fortmax. Worth the price.

The last time I cared about KOs was when they KOed the Dinocassettes and made the Classic Seeker mould in a bunch of colours that fun Pub still hasn't touched. But that's it. I have no regrets on any KO purchase, but that said - I haven't bought a great many either.

KOs actually leave me somewhat disappointed. For example, I love the Classic Seeker mould and all, but the quality on those leaves a lot to be desired. Also, that recent oversized iGear Seaspray? Right up my alley .... except they cheaped out again and left out the forearm filler, so they're totally hollow. It ruins the look, so forget it.

KOs exist, but that's all the good I can really say about 'em. There's no point in over glorifying them. They just make a quick buck for really cheap merchandise. I doubt they put anyone "on notice" or serve as a counterbalance to anything. That's giving them way, WAY too much credit. Gotta say, though, were I a G1 collector I'd probably hate KOs. And I mean deeply loath. Unless you have them in hand it's difficult to tell a legit from the fakes. I'm not so I don't, but I can feel for those guys.

That said buying them doesn't make you the devil either. They're just toys.

If those high quality KO companies want to KO MMC Feral Rex, MT's Gestalts, TFC's Gestalts and sell the gestalts for around $100 each, I'll buy them.

I believe 3rd Party products are a boon to the hobby. From upgrading official figures, to filling out holes in collections, and even sometimes making a "better" figure than the official version. It seems 3rd Party products have managed to sneak into so many different realms of collecting that there should be something for everyone.

There are many reasons to discredit an opinion that they are a bane to the hobby. I think the most important is that there is a huge financial gap between official and unofficial, and official products will sell more units because they are usually a fraction of the price of unofficial products. Also, if TFs are marketed towards children, then parents will likely purchase the cheaper products. And those cheaper products are on shelves in the toy aisle of local markets.

From what we've seen so far, 3rd Party cannot prosper to the level it has today without the official products. I don't think that will change any time soon.

KOs, on the otherhand, permeate through various products and will continue to do so. I like the idea of KO'ing a product that is no longer available through the market, but what a grand idea it was for Takara/Hasbro to begin to sell the Encores and other reprintings.

3rds are a boon in my opinion. If only for the fact that we get figures which are both superiorly reimagined and engineered than anything HasTak wants to put substantial effort into. However, because of 3rds I think HasTak has grown a bit more competitive or challenged which, for the adult collector, turns into a win win situation really. Don't get me wrong, I don't pretend to be an expert, but I do see a lot more Generations brand toys coming out the woodwork lately compared to when we first got Generations Prime, Megs, and Bumblebee and I truly think this is due in part to adult collectors flocking to 3rds who make the characters collectors want, not the characters 3rds think will sell the most. (Bumblebee Plagues anyone?)

On a side note, 3rds competing with other 3rds is also a -huge- boon to this hobby. Competition is forcing 3rds not to cut so many corners. Those 3rds that do are quietly phased out and forgotten about while those who truly wish to succeed make products -worth- buying. If 3rds are a bane to -anything- then it's too our wallets.

That's where KOs come in. While I don't own any KOs and don't plan to in the future, I can see where some collectors would be praising them due to having access to the figures they're interested in at a price they can afford. However, collectors also have to realize they're likely, almost intentionally, buying a faulty product be it weaker materials, bigger QC issues, funky & mismatched colors etc, but I digress. Are KOs a bane...? I would have to say no. It allows collectors to keep collecting, it promotes the hobby and inspires some competition albeit to a far less extent than the 'big boys' do.

TL;DR?

3rds and KOs = Boon to collector, Bane to wallets both collector and HasTaks.

I always find competition to be a good thing, so I find the entire 3P "movement" as a boon to the hobby. Others have mentioned that Hasbro and Takara have really "stepped up the game" referencing things like Combiner Wars, the more rapid releases of MP stuff, filling in gaps in Classics collections, and putting out interesting characters we NEVER thought we would get, like Metroplex. All true. While I don't KNOW if this is the result of 3P, I highly suspect that it played a part in the direction the hobby is going. If we are willing to spend the kind of money we do on the 3P stuff, Hasbro has GOT to be taking notice of it.

If it wasn't for Hercules I probably would have dropped TF collecting years ago, and the whole 3P scene is where most of my attention is focused these days. However, I still buy official products, so I still contribute to HasTak's bottom line as well. I'm sure I'm not alone, so in that sense it is a boon to the hobby all around as collectors that were getting bored were re-energized. If it wasn't for 3P keeping me interested Hasbro would make NOTHING from me as far as the Transformers brand.

As far as KOs go, there is a wide range of KOs out there, so it is tough to lump them together. You have the true cheap knock offs, which I do not support, because they are just junk.
You have the reproductions, which many see as a good thing when they recreate out of print figures, and I agree.
You also have reproductions of current figures, that are rescales or recolors. Personally I like these too as they can give me a chance to own a figure I might not otherwise have a place for. Faith Leader, for example, has been my "Classics" Optimus for years, since I never really liked the normal classics Op. While I have several versions of MP-01, Faith Leader does what those can't and fits with my classics quite nicely. There have been TONS of KO Alternators in different decos that are great too. These serve to expand out the cast in ways you couldn't with the official releases, and because they tended to be cheaper, were great for customizers.
Then you have the true reproductions of current products exactly as they are. I tend not to support these because I'd rather have the original, but if I can get a figure for a significant cost savings, I don't hold a deep moral objection to these either. As an example, KO Classics Counterpunch is 1/4 the price of his legit counterpart, I can't justify that difference in price for a chunk of plastic that will sit on a shelf.

It's hard to imagine anyone int his particular part of the forum taking the stance that 3rd parties are a bane to the hobby. It's hard to see anyone with a bone to pick would venture here. 3rd parties are easier to ignore than KOs.

i say boon. most things are made to go with your existing collection. i believe 3P inspires people to buy more official merchandise since 3P only fills the gaps.

KO's on the other hand, i dont agree with. especially the recent flood of MP KO's. just dont.

Think those low-low quality KO TF toys are a bane to the hobby. think there is nothing worse than taking the HasTak toy and taking away articulation. taking away gimmicks, using cheap plastic. most ugly colors they could find that day.

High quality KO TF toys, Think they are a boon to the hobby. For those seeking original toys and want to pay a much lower price.

3rd party TF toys, Think they are a definate boon to the hobby on multiple levels. It allows fans to get toys Hastak isn't currently making.

While I have no proof and it's all guessing on my part. Think HasTak might look at the success of some 3rd party TF toys and use them as a test market. Think the reason we got HasTak Combiners wars toys, Is because HasTak might have seen how popluar the 3rd party combiners were with the fans.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:If those high quality KO companies want to KO MMC Feral Rex, MT's Gestalts, TFC's Gestalts and sell the gestalts for around $100 each, I'll buy them.

I don't think any third party combiners will ever get KOd. REmember when they say they'll KO MT's giant? That never happened.. I wouldn't trust KO companies with combiners.. I mean even the originals can't stand up (TFC's Superion)

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Think those low-low quality KO TF toys are a bane to the hobby. think there is nothing worse than taking the HasTak toy and taking away articulation. taking away gimmicks, using cheap plastic. most ugly colors they could find that day.

High quality KO TF toys, Think they are a boon to the hobby. For those seeking original toys and want to pay a much lower price.

Boon and bane to the hobby, Tsu. Not boon/bane to a person's collection

guarayakha wrote:

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Think those low-low quality KO TF toys are a bane to the hobby. think there is nothing worse than taking the HasTak toy and taking away articulation. taking away gimmicks, using cheap plastic. most ugly colors they could find that day.

High quality KO TF toys, Think they are a boon to the hobby. For those seeking original toys and want to pay a much lower price.

Boon and bane to the hobby, Tsu. Not boon/bane to a person's collection

Sometimes that's all some people care about.

They make good spare parts (the KO) on certain occasions that your original matches the KO mold.

A bane I find in KOs is this:

1.You want to buy or sell an original MP. Unless you are familiar with the vendor (not those from ebay China)you get a 50/50 chance of getting a KO.

2. Given how a lot of KO is floating, they tend to dilute the market if you may want to resell you figure/item just the way fake vintage guns have also soured the market

3. It's good if out in front, they, the KOs are labelled such...KOs.

Get my point?