The Energon Pub

Bumblebeast wrote: I don't agree with Autobot brutality.

Cops will always try to capture a thief/killer/kidnapper alive and then taking it to trial. Prime on the other hand is judge/juror and executioner - Judge Dredd style.

Unless the thief/killer/kidnapper has already, and is apparent that they have no regard for life themselves. In this case Demolisher destroyed at least 2 military helicopters, and ran over a fleet of civilian cars, and destroyed a bridge. Its clear letting him live served no real purpose. Also,you have to consider his size. Its not like they could just through him in some make shift prison.

"For the death of soldiers, and killing of innocent civilians, you are sentenced to 50 yrs to life in prison!"
Since its clear that these guys can live for well over 1,000 yrs, there's really no point in that now is there?

Bumblebeast wrote:War or not, Autobots being brutal puts them on the unsympathetic side, whilst it is supposed for them to be the good guys. It's like US soldiers torturing prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. Aren't they supposed to be the good guys ?

Who said anything about torturing? The deaths of the decepticons were straight and to the point.

Bumblebeast wrote:Even Batman (who is pretty badass) doesn't kill the Joker in The Dark Knight And this doesn't mean he is a coward, it means that he doesn't want to become what he is fighting. Prime shouldn't become a Decepticon to fight Decepticons.

But you forget, this isn't a human were talking about. There are no prisons these guys stay at till there put on trial. There's no jury of their peers that will decide their fate. There's no rehabilitation program for these guys (at least not on earth).
Batman doesn't kill the Joker cause he leaves it in the hands of the judicial system. A system that does not exist for the decepticons.

As for the scene with Prime against Megs, Starscream and "Grindor", Prime did what he needed to do. You think Megs or the gang were trying to tickle Prime? Hell no! They were trying to kill him to get to Sam, and they succeeded.

Anyways, wasn't prime and the rest of the autobots being to "wimpy" in the first movie a big complaint? Now there the bad ass's we've all come to expect and there's still complaining? Come On people, you can't have it both ways!

Totally correct 5150 Cruiser.

This thread contains some pretty outlandish, farfetched ideas about how an alien robot warrior is supposed to act. I mean, people actually have a problem with Optimus Prime fighting and killing Decepticons? He would not make that choice if he didn't have to. He is a leader , and leaders sometimes have to do bad things and make tough decisions (that they would seriously prefer not to have to make) in order to save commrades and the people under their protection. Prime did what had to be done, and everyone knows it.

Prime Riblet wrote:Totally correct 5150 Cruiser.

This thread contains some pretty outlandish, farfetched ideas about how an alien robot warrior is supposed to act. I mean, people actually have a problem with Optimus Prime fighting and killing Decepticons? He would not make that choice if he didn't have to. He is a leader , and leaders sometimes have to do bad things and make tough decisions (that they would seriously prefer not to have to make) in order to save commrades and the people under their protection. Prime did what had to be done, and everyone knows it.

I'll tell you one thing,.. If i were ever in an interstelar war against transforming robots that take the form of earth vehicles....
I sure wouldn't mind having Prime fighting on my side!

But in all seriousness,...

Even if this isn't how were used to seeing Prime or the rest of the autobots acting, i still don't see anything wrong with it. Like you said Prime Riblet, they do what needs to be done in the situation at hand. In this case, (the movie universe), were seeing some overly aggressive decepticons that need to be dealt with in the same manner. IN a sense, we already saw what happened when the bots attempted to be overly cautious in the first movie. They got there asses handed to them. Now that they know that playing doctor Phil won't work, its time to go terminator on their ass's!

Shadowman wrote:They're not cops, they're soldiers. A soldier does not simply take an enemy combatant away, nor does he let them retreat.

Really? Law of Land Warfare says otherwise. Medieval codes of chivalry said otherwise as well. Many soldiers writing from WWI say otherwise too. I'm curious as to where you got this idea.

HK, former soldier. Capture, contain, neutralize, baby.

hellkitty wrote:

Shadowman wrote:They're not cops, they're soldiers. A soldier does not simply take an enemy combatant away, nor does he let them retreat.

Really? Law of Land Warfare says otherwise. Medieval codes of chivalry said otherwise as well. Many soldiers writing from WWI say otherwise too. I'm curious as to where you got this idea.

HK, former soldier. Capture, contain, neutralize, baby.

Well, almost all military equipment is designed to kill. That was my first obvious clue. Until M16s start shooting nets, I'll stand by what I said.

hellkitty wrote:
Really? Law of Land Warfare says otherwise. Medieval codes of chivalry said otherwise as well. Many soldiers writing from WWI say otherwise too. I'm curious as to where you got this idea.

HK, former soldier. Capture, contain, neutralize, baby.

Either way your argument is irrelevant considering their alien robots. Their rules and tactics in warfare could be very different than our rules. And considering the threat at hand, it makes sense.

I don't think it's so much a matter of Prime and the other Autobots actually killing the Decepticons(and we've learned a long time ago in the TF mythos that nobody of importance ever stays dead, so the point is probably moot), but how they're doing it.

There has seemed to be a little too much enjoyment a la "trash talking", Sideswipe's showboating, and Ironhide's desire to start blasting at any human who looks at him funny for a race of good guys who only seem to differ from the bad guys by that symbol on their chest and hazy concept of protecting all sentient beings who find themselves in the middle of this little war.

To be fair, Sideswipe and Ironhide's personalities are probably similar and Prime has already reprimanded Ironhide for his attitude in the first movie. Autobots aren't morally perfect, they're just a slight improvement over the Decepticons. And I think that's acceptable.

Yeah, a lot of it was harsh.
But considering that the only way to stop the Decepticons was to KILL them, I wasn't really bothered.

Yeah, the Optimus "any last words" thing was pretty rough though. I would have probably seen that more from a different Autobot (say, Ironhide). It didn't sit well with me.
But that robot smashed apart an entire city full of innocent people and tried to crush Optimus.

Then later, three (or four, I can't remember) Decepticons ganged up on Optimus and beat him senseless and then impaled him through his chest.

So I don't particularly feel bad for the D-con's.

And Jetfire?
You gotta remember, he's an EX-Decepticon. He's been trained to be brutal.

No Death for Prowl wrote:I don't think it's so much a matter of Prime and the other Autobots actually killing the Decepticons(and we've learned a long time ago in the TF mythos that nobody of importance ever stays dead, so the point is probably moot), but how they're doing it.

This. It seemed that instead of doing something inevitable that has to be done they actually enjoyed the killing. I expect that from the bad guys not the good guys. Prime commenting that Megatron "left him no choice" in the first movie is the Prime I'd like to see; yes he'll do anything to protect but he's still err...human.

Something just came to mind a minute ago.

I keep hearing a lot of "imprison them for life" stuff here.

Yeah, well that IS a lot less brutal, but that only works for organic life like humans who die in usually less than 100 years.
Transformers do get old and I'm sure will die at some point, but with good matinence they can live for hundreds of thousands, if not MILLIONS of years.

And also allowing them to slowly and agonizingly waste away in a dark, cramped cell for the rest of their nearly endless lives...?
Seems far more cruel than just popping them one shot in the head.

They're basically sentenced to death either way. The imprisonment just means they're stripped of their freedom and then they suffer through tormenting century upon century, only looking forward to their eventual death.

If I know Decepticons, I'm sure most would rather go out quick and/or in a violent blaze of glory than sit in torturous confinement.

Hate to Disagree but thats what I loved about the Movie. Let heads roll. Its war it aint a Game.

No Death for Prowl wrote:
There has seemed to be a little too much enjoyment a la "trash talking", Sideswipe's showboating, and Ironhide's desire to start blasting at any human who looks at him funny for a race of good guys who only seem to differ from the bad guys by that symbol on their chest and hazy concept of protecting all sentient beings who find themselves in the middle of this little war.

I think Ironhide's actions when the military pointed their weapons at him and the rest of the autobots was perfect for his character. YOu have to remember he is a weapons specialist and a warrior. He's on earth for the most part because of Optimus request/orders and even asks Prime In the first movie..
"Why are we fighting to save the humans?"
If i were protecting a planet from an Alien civilization only to be thanked by a fleet of Humvees with 50 cal. guns aiming at me, I'd pretty pissed off and would be drawing my cannons too.
As for Sideswipe, that's just his personality showing. And considering his alt mode, i think it fit him perfect.

Come'on guys. This is what we wanted! IN the first film everyone complained that the autobots were pansies and got the sh!T kicked out of them. Now we get them kicking ass and there to mean??? And while they may not have gone into full detail with each character, this is part of the character development that we wanted as well! I mean seriously. No wonder no one wants to step up to the plate for TF3. Its a no win situation with the Fan base.

Siren Prime wrote:Something just came to mind a minute ago.

I keep hearing a lot of "imprison them for life" stuff here.

Yeah, well that IS a lot less brutal, but that only works for organic life like humans who die in usually less than 100 years.
Transformers do get old and I'm sure will die at some point, but with good matinence they can live for hundreds of thousands, if not MILLIONS of years.

And also allowing them to slowly and agonizingly waste away in a dark, cramped cell for the rest of their nearly endless lives...?
Seems far more cruel than just popping them one shot in the head.

They're basically sentenced to death either way. The imprisonment just means they're stripped of their freedom and then they suffer through tormenting century upon century, only looking forward to their eventual death.

If I know Decepticons, I'm sure most would rather go out quick and/or in a violent blaze of glory than sit in torturous confinement.

I posted something similar a few post up but didn't get a response (well, not an opposing one at least).
These are all great points. These is no prison for the cons. No jury to stand trial. The point of the cons is to serve megs and full fill his orders, even in his death. The bots know this, and they also know that they won't stop at anything to do so. They do what needs to be done.

Ah, must've missed it. Sorry.

Yeah, it like tossing a wild animal like lion or a tiger into a 5x5 ft cage and just giving them a enough sustinence to keep them alive.
The imprisonment alone would kill them. Same with a Decepticon.

No doubt there would be plenty of attempted and accomplished suicides or trips to the psych ward.

Shadowman wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:There's only one instance I can think of where an Autobot (well, actually a Maximal) issued such brutality to an enemy bot:

How about in the '86 movie when Optimus Prime had Megatron at gunpoint, and when Megatron asked for mercy, Optimus just mocked him.

And before that he said "Stop Megatron no matter the cost" and went killing decepticons.

I think a lot of this stuff is borderline, which is why we have so many opinions on both sides. In the first movie, there really wasn't so much brutelity, maybe except Prime beheading Bonecrusher. A little surprising to see Prime do it, but personally I was pleasanlty surprised. I've been waiting since the 80s for Prime to grow some balls. At least he did it before Devastator.

Anyway, in RotF there are more instances.

Would you also consider Bumblebee blowing up the Witwicky house a bit brutal, or at least overkill? I mean, Sam's mom was still in the house. Just because she wasn't in the room, doesn't mean Bee couldn't have killed her by accidentally blowing up the whole house.

Yeah, Sideswipe pretty much unprovokedly killed an unarmed Sideways. I mean, we can make the argument that Sideways killed before or might kill again, but at the time he was just running away. He didn't even fire back or anything. He did smash through a house, showing no regard for humans, so maybe that was reason enough. I don't think it was. I wanted to see more of Sideways.

I cheered when Prime took on 3 Cons, and have no problems with him handing out the asswhoopings.

As for Ironhide confronting the soldiers, I can let that go, because Prime just got killed, and I completely understand the Autobots being pissed.

In the end, Jetfire is also excused, for 2 reasons. One, as someone has said, he is a Decepticon by spark, and these things don't go away. Two, he was saving soldiers from Mixmaster, and he was gutted by Scorponok before he smashed his head like a grape. Payback's a bitch.

Bumblebee killing Rampage and Ravage. Rampage I have no problem with. But ripping Ravage apart was harsh. He could have just shot him in the head. But I guess it was done for shock and awe.

As for Prime being brutal at the very end, I don't think he was brutal enough. Let me explain. He let Megatron live. He killed the Fallen, but it was too quick. He should have torn him apart limb by limb, to show an example to Megatron that Prime is no longer a pushover. Also, I think the writers missed an awesome opportunity, as in the end Prime said "You picked the wrong planet! I want your face!" He should have said "You picked the wrong planet! And the wrong Prime!!" That would have sounded a hell of a lot better than "I want your face."

As for "Law of Land Warfare," it definitely is irrelevant here.

Rodimus Prime wrote:Yeah, Sideswipe pretty much unprovokedly killed an unarmed Sideways.

They're on opposing sides in a war. There is no "unprovoked" there. Sideswipe saw his enemy, and killed him.

Rodimus Prime wrote:In the end, Jetfire is also excused, for 2 reasons. One, as someone has said, he is a Decepticon by spark, and these things don't go away.

I'm pretty sure sparks don't work like that in the movie-universe.

The Decepticons were a faction that Megatron creates. Prior to that, they were all Cybertronian.

Ironhide was a member of Megatron's military guard until he created the Decpeticons, then Ironhide left to join with Prime. Ironhide's attitude is more militaristic, but there's nothing to say he's got a 'con's spark.

Counterpunch wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:In the end, Jetfire is also excused, for 2 reasons. One, as someone has said, he is a Decepticon by spark, and these things don't go away.

I'm pretty sure sparks don't work like that in the movie-universe.

The Decepticons were a faction that Megatron creates. Prior to that, they were all Cybertronian.

Ironhide was a member of Megatron's military guard until he created the Decpeticons, then Ironhide left to join with Prime. Ironhide's attitude is more militaristic, but there's nothing to say he's got a 'con's spark.

I'm not sure that's exactly what he meant...

It's not about anything physical. His spark isn't literaly making him act harsh.
It's a set of mind. Jetfire spent most of his life doing what Decepticons do.
Being brutal.

And Ironhide is hardcore too. At least the Movie-verse one is.

"Decepticon by spark" meaning it's what he's accustomed to.
"Old habits die hard"? "You can't teach and old dog new tricks"?

Movie-verse Jetty is an really OLD "dog" with some very long-standing habits imprinted into him.

I was a quite surprised by the on the spot execution of crippled, helpless, and fleeing Decepticons. I felt that there was somehow something "un-Autobot" about that.

Simple question for anyone who wants to defend the 'helpless' Decepticons...

Considering the Decepticon plans to find the Star Harvester and what that meant for Earth, you would be ok with letting these Decepticons remain alive after defeat?

These creatures, these Decepticons, are looking to impelemnt world-wide holocaust of all life on Earth.

I just want to make sure that we're clear here that you are willing to take the risk of leaving them alive. It seems to me that people were at fault for not completely destroying Megatron's body. He was dead and we put him at the bottom of the deepest ocean spot on Earth. This worked out poorly.

So, again, for all of you who think the Autobots were out of line and that the Decepticons were in need of some kind of "mercy".

Please explain to me how this thought process works.

Counterpunch wrote: I just want to make sure that we're clear here that you are willing to take the risk of leaving them alive. It seems to me that people were at fault for not completely destroying Megatron's body. He was dead and we put him at the bottom of the deepest ocean spot on Earth. This worked out poorly.

Very good point Counterpunch. At this point we now know that the cons will bring one of there own back to life if they feel it nessasary. Even if that nvoles imaring one of their own. Complete distruction is the only way to go. This makes more sence to why some were taken out so "harshly". To reduce the posibility of them returning.

Siren Prime wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:In the end, Jetfire is also excused, for 2 reasons. One, as someone has said, he is a Decepticon by spark, and these things don't go away.

I'm pretty sure sparks don't work like that in the movie-universe.

The Decepticons were a faction that Megatron creates. Prior to that, they were all Cybertronian.

Ironhide was a member of Megatron's military guard until he created the Decpeticons, then Ironhide left to join with Prime. Ironhide's attitude is more militaristic, but there's nothing to say he's got a 'con's spark.

I'm not sure that's exactly what he meant...

It's not about anything physical. His spark isn't literaly making him act harsh.
It's a set of mind. Jetfire spent most of his life doing what Decepticons do.
Being brutal.

And Ironhide is hardcore too. At least the Movie-verse one is.

"Decepticon by spark" meaning it's what he's accustomed to.
"Old habits die hard"? "You can't teach and old dog new tricks"?

Movie-verse Jetty is an really OLD "dog" with some very long-standing habits imprinted into him.

Yes, that's it. Thanks, Siren.

And on Sideways, i stand corrected. It is war, and no incidental provocation needed.

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Counterpunch wrote: I just want to make sure that we're clear here that you are willing to take the risk of leaving them alive. It seems to me that people were at fault for not completely destroying Megatron's body. He was dead and we put him at the bottom of the deepest ocean spot on Earth. This worked out poorly.

Very good point Counterpunch. At this point we now know that the cons will bring one of there own back to life if they feel it nessasary. Even if that nvoles imaring one of their own. Complete distruction is the only way to go. This makes more sence to why some were taken out so "harshly". To reduce the posibility of them returning.

And I'm not sure if it's been pointed out on this thread (if so then just let me remind everyone), but when they went down there to resurect Megatron, the "doctor bot" told them the he needed parts.
So they grabbed some hapless sucker Decepticon and tore him appart limb from limb.

If that isn't ruthless, I don't know what is.

They don't deserve a lot of sympathy.

Siren Prime wrote:
And I'm not sure if it's been pointed out on this thread (if so then just let me remind everyone), but when they went down there to resurect Megatron, the "doctor bot" told them the he needed parts.
So they grabbed some hapless sucker Decepticon and tore him appart limb from limb.

Yeah.

"Kill ze littel one!!!"

And later

"We need ze brain!!!"

Was he supposed to be a tiny robotic Josef Mengele with that German accent?