The Energon Pub

[Sabrblade]

TlDr; trying to use logic in Transformers is the sure road to madness.

Railroad to madness, in this case.

[-Kanrabat-]

I don't know about that, people arguing for size consistency have been rewarded

As long that the robot mode is concerned... because it's mission impossible for the vehicles. Especially when some triple changers are out of scale with themselves.

[ZeroWolf]

I don't know about that, people arguing for size consistency have been rewarded

As long that the robot mode is concerned... because it's mission impossible for the vehicles. Especially when some triple changers are out of scale with themselves.

Ah who ever thought an aircraft carrier to a fighter jet was a good idea

[william-james88]

Size matters, if she tells you otherwise she's just trying to make you feel better.

About Aatrotrain, the tender didn't make much sense to me since it looks better upside down but it can't reach the bottom.

[Starseeker]

Well I for one think Astrotrain is a great figure, and I greatly enjoy him. Probably my favorite of the line after the Seekers.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Yet you still miss the point, that being cartoon and/or toy accuracy. Astrotrain did not have a tender in the cartoon or with his G1 figure release. Whether this is accurate to real life is irrelevant.

From my perspective it's relevant because it makes the G1 toy and cartoon depictions faulty and incomplete; the component they omitted is that important to the real thing. It can't go anywhere under its own power without that part, nor can it hook up to train cars.

A bit of a side note, while it does aesthetically improve the train mode, does Astrotrin actually need the tender? I mean, he's always been able to fly around in shuttle mode, even reach escape velocity, without booster rockets.

Its more to complete the train disguise,

Exactly.

It's because hardcore-all-or-nothing Zelda forget that Transformers are ROBOTS IN DISGUISE.

Blow it out your actuator I did not forget that they are robots in disguise. In fact, the conceit of them being in disguise is a big part of why the original toy's lack of a tender bothers me.
Since you apparently cannot grasp what I am saying, let me try making it clear:
1. The thing Astrotrain is supposedly pretending to be DOES NOT WORK without the tender. I'm not saying Astrotrain himself needs it to function, I'm saying the actual locomotive does.
2. Because the tender is a non-optional part of the actual locomotive, Astrotrain without the tender isn't a robot in disguise. He's a robot in HALF a disguise.

I'll say again, it's like looking at the steam engine version of this:

Or this:

It is that sticks-out-like-a-sore-thumb incomplete.

As a child and even now, I always saw Astrotrain (and every single other TF) to be pretenders in their altmodes.

Well, without a tender, I see Astrotrain as pretending badly.

and to provide an impromptu launch pad (and as seen on the last page or the one before that, a big massive hammer...that should have been the official weapon mode!)

Like I said, we'll no doubt see it canonized by Takara.

Counter-counterargument: The current design team might have mostly shifted away from that design choice because they actually can't implement it like you're suggesting with a number the designs they've settled on, because as you just pointed out:

(given just how much Transformers have been gutted of mass since then).

The budget and plastic costs for these figures have clearly shifted since the Unicron Trilogy, as gets repeatedly brought up every time someone complains about a figure like Impactor, Ironhide, or Grapple having visible hollow limbs to accommodate their height/parts count.

Well, that didn't stop the Combiner Wars Dragstrip from using it. That mold has actual spring-locked telescoping legs just like Cybertron Hot Shot did. Pretty firm ones too.
I think there really is some sort of aversion to it, because even pseudo-telescoping (such as that seen on Classics Mirage) seems like it's declined in use. It feels to me like they go out of their way to avoid making legs that effectively collapse straight down unless they don't have a choice.

Having grown up through the UT and handled numerous figures that have effective telescoping mechanisms (Energon Landmine comes to mind first), all of the figures that do it right require the larger part of the telescoping limb that houses the mechanism to be a fully enclosed part. For that type of engineering to be used on Astrotrain, his lower legs would have to be completely redesigned not only to change the transformation like you said but also to cover up/enclose his currently-hollow inner calves. which seems like it could have easily cut into the figure's budget enough depending on how those changes were implemented that he might not even have had the tender that you've coveted for so long (and that keeps starting these arguments), as I doubt they would have wanted to cut down on his weaponry that much considering the weapons being part of the line-wide gimmick and designed to all combine, and his arms already have hollows as well to accommodate the current design & transformation, so they can't take from there.

I am aware of all of that, and I did take that into consideration. I still think it would have been feasible, because I think designing the legs to telescope would have simplified less plastic was needed to handle the front end.

And if that wasn't enough... Well, having given it further thought, they probably could have just used with the pseudo-telescoping employed by Classics Mirage and PotP Starscream. Or the sideways version employed by SIEGE Skyfire.

With that said, they clearly haven't forgotten completely how to do it, seeing as how the Brunt mold from this same line/trilogy has telescoping design for his arms

Well, that's not fully spring-locked telescoping and it doesn't have to bear a load the way legs do.

so for all we know they did consider it more than we think for figures like Astrotrain and cut it for the reasons I said or other ones that we can only guess, we just don't have a way of really finding that out currently. I also could just be totally off-base with this analysis, I'm not a professional toy designer by any means.

Well, we could write to Hasbro asking about the rationale and see whether they consider that too proprietary to tell.

Well I for one think Astrotrain is a great figure, and I greatly enjoy him. Probably my favorite of the line after the Seekers.

I think he's awesome despite the flaws, and I really really want to get my hands on him.

About Aatrotrain, the tender didn't make much sense to me since it looks better upside down but it can't reach the bottom.

How does it look better upside-down? That puts the train wheels on the wrong side.

[william-james88]

Doesn't the tender have tank treads?

[Emerje]

I'll say again, it's like looking at the steam engine version of this:

Hey now, for all you know in the distant future of 2005 this could be a total normal sight on the road.

Emerje

[-Kanrabat-]

Astrotrain is one of those dude who don't really care.
I'M A TRAIN WHO DONT ROLL ON TRACKS, NO TENDER, ROCKET BOOSTERS, SIZE OF BETWEEN A BUS AND A GIANT CRUSE SHIP, AND CHOOOOOOOOOCHOOOOOOOOOOO!


And that's why he's FUN.

[ZeroWolf]

I'll say again, it's like looking at the steam engine version of this:

Hey now, for all you know in the distant future of 2005 this could be a total normal sight on the road.

Emerje

I was going to make some sort of joke about people maybe only affording half of a car, then I remembered that 2005 was 15 years ago and suddenly felt very old...

[TF-fan kev777]

It's because hardcore-all-or-nothing Zelda forget that Transformers are ROBOTS IN DISGUISE.

Blow it out your actuator I did not forget that they are robots in disguise. In fact, the conceit of them being in disguise is a big part of why the original toy's lack of a tender bothers me.
Since you apparently cannot grasp what I am saying, let me try making it clear:
1. The thing Astrotrain is supposedly pretending to be DOES NOT WORK without the tender. I'm not saying Astrotrain himself needs it to function, I'm saying the actual locomotive does.
2. Because the tender is a non-optional part of the actual locomotive, Astrotrain without the tender isn't a robot in disguise. He's a robot in HALF a disguise.

Zelda, perhaps what you keep missing over and over and over again, is that you are apparently the only one on this site that really cares about the tender. So much so that every time anyone brings it up, you have to rush to defend your point at all costs completely derailing the thread and making in unenjoyable for anyone who really doesn't care about the tender.

I grew up in a train household and still help my day with his collection and layout. I absolutely know that a locomotive should have a tender, but guess what, I don't effing care that G1 Astrotrain never had one. 8 Year old me didn't care even though I knew better, and mid forties me still doesn't care.

If this is the hill you want to die on, good for you being that passionate about it, but it really sucks for anyone else just wants to talk about our favorite toys.

[aronjlove]

I don't know, I was sorta enjoying this train wreck

Get it, trainwreck...

I'll see myself out.

[TF-fan kev777]

I will say with all the discussion on the tender being needed to complete the "disguise" completely overlooks the biggest oversight to locomotive accuracy. He's a freaking purple locomotive!

[-Kanrabat-]

Well, pointless discutions about pointless details is still better than a shipping notice thread.

[-Kanrabat-]

I will say with all the discussion on the tender being needed to complete the "disguise" completely overlooks the biggest oversight to locomotive accuracy. He's a freaking purple locomotive!

Not only that, but this BEAST would need a FOUR tracks railroad. Not really standard.

Also, the shuttle don't need any fuel tanks nor boosters to take off .

[Gauntlet101010]

I will say with all the discussion on the tender being needed to complete the "disguise" completely overlooks the biggest oversight to locomotive accuracy. He's a freaking purple locomotive!

Not only that, but this BEAST would need a FOUR tracks railroad. Not really standard.

Also, the shuttle don't need any fuel tanks nor boosters to take off .

I mentioned the four track issue a little while ago. Tender doesn't help that problem! It kinda ruins the whole mode for me. All I can see is this tiny train peeking out of the larger one like a shy turtle.

[-Kanrabat-]

I will say with all the discussion on the tender being needed to complete the "disguise" completely overlooks the biggest oversight to locomotive accuracy. He's a freaking purple locomotive!

Not only that, but this BEAST would need a FOUR tracks railroad. Not really standard.

Also, the shuttle don't need any fuel tanks nor boosters to take off .

I mentioned the four track issue a little while ago. Tender doesn't help that problem! It kinda ruins the whole mode for me. All I can see is this tiny train peeking out of the larger one like a shy turtle.

That's the perfect description for my issue with the train mode as well.

Regardless of not being a "mini MP", He's still a pretty solid and fun toy.

[D-Maximal_Primal]

I actually really enjoyed Astrotrain's tender, and to me it was something he always needed. Siege made an Astrotrain with the best all around train mode, something no other toy has really touched.

Now that tender does almost nothing for the other 2 modes, but it's still a fun thing to have, even if I wish I hadn't paid full price.

[aronjlove]

I guess I'm the only one who liked the shuttle pad. It has 5mm ports so you can setup turrets for Micromasters to man and connectors to add Airwave and Greasepit for a Decepticon outpost.

[TF-fan kev777]

I guess I'm the only one who liked the shuttle pad. It has 5mm ports so you can setup turrets for Micromasters to man and connectors to add Airwave and Greasepit for a Decepticon outpost.

I actually like it for the train mode, but it wouldn't bother me if it wasn't included. I do like it best for the launchpad mode, as base building is one of my favorite things to do.

[Starseeker]

I guess I'm the only one who liked the shuttle pad. It has 5mm ports so you can setup turrets for Micromasters to man and connectors to add Airwave and Greasepit for a Decepticon outpost.

I enjoy the shuttle pad as well. I even picked up a second one that I use for Shockwave, and have both he and Astrotrain in the launch position when setting up my base.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Well Tf-fan-kev777, first off I think "Unusual livery" rates below "Obvious missing chunk o' vehicle" in terms of accuracy flaws
Second, I'm a train man and it's always bugged me since the day I found out about Astrotrain that he didn't have a tender.

The apparent hatred for it also bugs me - people seem to think that if he didn't have the tender he'd have magically been made as a Voyager and magically not had the shuttle mode gaps... it's basically being treated as a scapegoat for anything people find wanting about the toy. There's this dogged insistence that the tender is an evil parasite that poisoned the design and exists purely to drain people's wallets, and cannot possibly be anything else. It reminds me a lot of the "Hasbro is scamming us" whining.

I'm pretty sure that without the tender he'd have either: A. Been given something else (and probably less relevant to him) to pad him out to Leader or B. Not been made at all.

And even if he had been produced as a Voyager... the base figure would have been no better and might even have turned out slightly worse. Because what hurt the base figure is the designers not giving him collapsing legs (whether by telescoping or double-hinge), and insisting on a cartoon chestplate that flips back to bring the shuttle tailfin into place. That stupidity would have been there tender or no tender, and quite possibly with even more gaps.

As for the "He looks like he needs four rails" complaint...


It is annoying to me since I think the narrower train front could have been avoided by designing him with collapsing legs (which the current team seems to avoid when they have the option), but I think it's a major improvement over the G1 toy very visibly looking like it needs SIX rails.
I also think the out-of-gauge pilot wheels on SIEGE Astrotrain look decidedly less silly than those of the G1 toy - those end up looking like *ahem* training wheels.

I can put up with that flaw, and I'm really happy to have Astrotrain not only be a steam engine again (up yours, Archer) but also have a tender. Both of those together made him the biggest "SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!" figure of the line for me, and not being able to get hold of him has been frustrating.

As for coming here to enjoy our toys... Well, I do that too. But it puts a bit of a damper on that enjoyment when, pretty much every time someone posts a pic of Astrotrain with the tender (which is one of my favorite features), someone always comes along to bash said tender for existing...

I actually really enjoyed Astrotrain's tender, and to me it was something he always needed. Siege made an Astrotrain with the best all around train mode, something no other toy has really touched.

I'm glad I'm not the only one, at least... I see it as the accessory he's always needed, a neat addition that took a design I already really liked and fixed the one glaring omission that bugged me about it.

Now that tender does almost nothing for the other 2 modes, but it's still a fun thing to have, even if I wish I hadn't paid full price.

Hey, I like the launch pad/crawler idea. And it looks like it would make a decent flat base platform for the Decepticons, probably the closest they'll get to an equivalent to ER Optimus' combat deck.

Now for what I originally came in here to post:

[-Kanrabat-]

That comparison between Siege 'train and G1 'train do not make any sense. You can be honest and see that those wheels at the front of the G1 train are clearly meant for PLAY value. Not for the look.

"Turtle head" train for the Siege version is unavoidable in it's baffling design. IMO, they could had sacrificed the tender to give Siege Astrotrain more "meat" and a better design. But it was done for the sake of the line's gimmick.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

That comparison between Siege 'train and G1 'train do not make any sense. You can be honest and see that those wheels at the front of the G1 train are clearly meant for PLAY value. Not for the look.

1. For play value or not, they still look just as blatantly out of gauge as the SIEGE version's front wheels, just going the other way; I personally find them being on the outside makes them "louder" about it. ...And technically they're a case of sacrificing the train mode's looks for the shuttle mode's looks; that's why they're outside in train mode instead of inside where they wouldn't hide the sculpted pilot wheels on the leg panels.
2. The SIEGE wheels are for play value too, that's why they roll. And a different aspect of play value factors into they're inside like they are.

"Turtle head" train for the Siege version is unavoidable in it's baffling design. IMO, they could had sacrificed the tender to give Siege Astrotrain more "meat" and a better design. But it was done for the sake of the line's gimmick.

Giving him more meat wouldn't have prevented the "turtle head" for the train. All it would have done was make a bigger Astrotrain with the same problem.

Because what caused the "turtle head" is... Well, first I have to admit I'm wrong about the collapsing legs being a factor. I had yet to watch a video review, but continual double-checking of pics finally led me to wonder if maybe I'd been seeing that wrong and sure enough after watching a review to be sure... Apologies for my stupidity here.

However, seeing him transformed reaffirmed the other thing I'd thought was a big factor: The demand for real feet with ankle tilts. Which would have been a factor no matter how much meat went into the main figure, as would the demand for as GEEWUN a look as possible (which throws out the easy solution of "just use the shuttle nose as the feet").
There's only so much room in the shuttle nose they could have stored feet in, even if they'd set it up like the G1 toy (Which I'm looking at on my desk right now), and Astrotrain's chonky legs kinda need long feet if you're gonna give him a real pair and still have the "toe" protrude. EDIT: Thinking about it, trying to stash the feet in the shuttle nose would have also had the issue of clearance for however the feet folded out from their storage.

So, they decided to repurpose the locomotive mode's banjo dome as feet. But in order to make that work, the entire front of the engine past the dome had to tuck into the legs to get it out of the way.

Now, they could have still prevented the gauge issue by sticking the front wheels to the leg panels. But that would have just been trading one set of aesthetic problems in train mode for another, and inflicted further aesthetic problems on the shuttle mode, so... I feel like doing it this way was probably the best compromise.


This might just be me, but... The more I think about it, the more I think the tender might have been the impetus to do this new Astrotrain in the first place. Why? Because, like Optimus' trailer, it's a box that can unfold into a flat battle platform for smaller figures - such as Micromasters. The 'Cons didn't really have a direct equivalent to that before. Motormaster and Onslaught's base modes come close, but they're not quite the same.
But this tender... It's a separate box by design that can work for the purpose, and it makes logical sense as an accessory for an existing character. Plus it gives the 'Cons such a box that's original to them, rather than it just being an evil palette swap of an Autobot version.

And now I want to see pics of Micromasters on it, manning his various guns.

[-Kanrabat-]

I'll have to cheat a bit and talk about a 3P figure. If FANCE CELL TOYS could make a "perfect" Astrotrain with their FC-X01 Captain, HasTak could have done it as well. Appart two very fragile panels for the train mode, it could easily be reduced to "beefy voyager" sized with a bit of tweaking.
The "Turtle head" train could have been avoided as well as the gapy top of the shuttle mode.

SIEGE ASTROTRAIN IS COMPLETE GARBAGE!
Kidding. It's a great toy, but it's far, far from the almost-perfection many other figures have acheived in the WFC Trilogy so far.