The Energon Pub

Forgot about the Duocons. Interesting they never made Duobots or Insectibots or Dinocons or Monstercons. I guess it was probably for the best.

D-Maximus_Primal wrote:

Burn wrote:The one gimmick I REALLY want to see done with modern designs is the Duocons.

Two vehicles with no individual robot modes until they combine. I know logistically it's a stupid idea (how do you form the robot mode if one vehicle is missing?) but with every other gimmick being updated, I'd like to see how they'd treat a modern version.

I agree. It would be cool to see Flywheels and Battletrap updated and done right.

And yeah, having more than 1 mode is what I consider a gimmick. Adds a whole new dimension to the character

That new dimension is suck. They kind of revisited it in Energon.

I gave Flywheels to my 8 year old as a stocking stuffer last Christmas. He was interested when I showed the combined mode, but after that he want to change the individual vehicles into robot modes. He lost interest after that with CW fresh in his mind.

kurthy wrote:

D-Maximus_Primal wrote:

Burn wrote:The one gimmick I REALLY want to see done with modern designs is the Duocons.

Two vehicles with no individual robot modes until they combine. I know logistically it's a stupid idea (how do you form the robot mode if one vehicle is missing?) but with every other gimmick being updated, I'd like to see how they'd treat a modern version.

I agree. It would be cool to see Flywheels and Battletrap updated and done right.

And yeah, having more than 1 mode is what I consider a gimmick. Adds a whole new dimension to the character

That new dimension is suck. They kind of revisited it in Energon.

I gave Flywheels to my 8 year old as a stocking stuffer last Christmas. He was interested when I showed the combined mode, but after that he want to change the individual vehicles into robot modes. He lost interest after that with CW fresh in his mind.

I was more referring to the previously mentioned by me triple changers with that second line. Sorry to confuse!

Great as always Will. I must say I'm surprised to see two Beast Machines toys in any list
Here's mine!



So much fun, and these two are the best I can think of.



I think I only had a couple as a kid, but modern renditions like G/L Brainstorm (and 3P takes) have been awesome and really makes me look forward to Titans Return.



The only bad part about them is instability, but newer renditions are stable and posable!



So many cassettes, so many colors, it's like trying to catch Pokemon



Device Label. So awesome. We need more things like this. For such a small line it had a lot of winners.

skywarp408 wrote:Interesting they never made Duobots

Technically, in a way, and it's a bit of a stretch, Omega Supreme could be considered a "Duobot"

Burn wrote:

skywarp408 wrote:Interesting they never made Duobots

Technically, in a way, and it's a bit of a stretch, Omega Supreme could be considered a "Duobot"

I was kinda thinking, also a stretch, but Animated Jetfire.

@ Burn: Would you count Energon Tidal Wave as an update to the duocon concept, with him being 3 different vehicle instead of 2 (triocon?) Or would he be a triple changer instead since he has 3 forms: the 3 vehicles, the combination of them into a battleship, and the robot mode.

@Shajaki: You just gave me a great idea since your list is a perfect counterpoint to mine. I will be adding it to mine to make it both a list on specific gimicks and another on general gimicks.

william-james88 wrote:@ Burn: Would you count Energon Tidal Wave as an update to the duocon concept, with him being 3 different vehicle instead of 2 (triocon?) Or would he be a triple changer instead since he has 3 forms: the 3 vehicles, the combination of them into a battleship, and the robot mode.

Tough call ... I would lean towards "Triocon" as the individual vehicles don't have robot modes.

But then he redefines what we consider a triple changer as well.

Burn wrote:

skywarp408 wrote:Interesting they never made Duobots

Technically, in a way, and it's a bit of a stretch, Omega Supreme could be considered a "Duobot"

Technically he'd be a "Triobot": Tank, rocket, and rocket base.

Cobotron wrote:I was kinda thinking, also a stretch, but Animated Jetfire.

I think you mean Safeguard, but he's just a two member combiner since his individual parts have bot modes, sort of like the Mini-Cassette combiners.

william-james88 wrote:@ Burn: Would you count Energon Tidal Wave as an update to the duocon concept, with him being 3 different vehicle instead of 2 (triocon?) Or would he be a triple changer instead since he has 3 forms: the 3 vehicles, the combination of them into a battleship, and the robot mode.

You were right the first time, more or less. Bot modes count as a form on a Triple Changer just like they do on a Six Changer, while Duocons refer to the number parts that form the bot. If you count each mode Tidal Wave really has five forms, and traditionally the multi-changers can only do one form at a time. So I guess he'd be a "Triocon" with two combined forms.

Emerje

Emerje wrote:

Burn wrote:

skywarp408 wrote:Interesting they never made Duobots

Technically, in a way, and it's a bit of a stretch, Omega Supreme could be considered a "Duobot"

Technically he'd be a "Triobot": Tank, rocket, and rocket base.

Could you count the base though? It's needed for both the tank and the rocket.

Alternatively we could just exclude him as he wasn't Hasbro/Takara designed.

Emerje wrote:You were right the first time, more or less. Bot modes count as a form on a Triple Changer just like they do on a Six Changer, while Duocons refer to the number parts that form the bot. If you count each mode Tidal Wave really has five forms, and traditionally the multi-changers can only do one form at a time. So I guess he'd be a "Triocon" with two combined forms.

Emerje

You speak of mode and forms, are they one and the same?

Why cant we count it as 3 different modes?
Individual vehiciles
Combined vehicles
Robot mode

And its always only one of those at a time.

Why cant he simply be a combination of different gimicks?

Burn wrote:

Emerje wrote:

Burn wrote:

skywarp408 wrote:Interesting they never made Duobots

Technically, in a way, and it's a bit of a stretch, Omega Supreme could be considered a "Duobot"

Technically he'd be a "Triobot": Tank, rocket, and rocket base.

Could you count the base though? It's needed for both the tank and the rocket.

Alternatively we could just exclude him as he wasn't Hasbro/Takara designed.

Or you could pretend you were talking about the Energon Omega Supreme all along, who is a duocon.

william-james88 wrote:

Burn wrote:

Emerje wrote:

Burn wrote:

skywarp408 wrote:Interesting they never made Duobots

Technically, in a way, and it's a bit of a stretch, Omega Supreme could be considered a "Duobot"

Technically he'd be a "Triobot": Tank, rocket, and rocket base.

Could you count the base though? It's needed for both the tank and the rocket.

Alternatively we could just exclude him as he wasn't Hasbro/Takara designed.

Or you could pretend you were talking about the Energon Omega Supreme all along, who is a duocon.

ah but is he?

Omega Train + Omega Battleship = Cybertronian Armoured Super Train

Then Train + Battleship + Headmaster = Robot Mode

Omega Supreme (energon) is the definition of gratuitous gimmicks (headmaster, duocon, alt modes combine so technically triple changer as well, combiner, brainmaster (Optimus Supreme), minicon powerlinxer, grabby claw, firing missiles, lever to move cannons all at once, battle platforms so technically could be considered part cityformer, and he's huge)

So if you put the duocons together, but don't transform them, is that a separate mode or just a mistransformation?

Burn wrote:

Emerje wrote:

Burn wrote:

skywarp408 wrote:Interesting they never made Duobots

Technically, in a way, and it's a bit of a stretch, Omega Supreme could be considered a "Duobot"

Technically he'd be a "Triobot": Tank, rocket, and rocket base.

Could you count the base though? It's needed for both the tank and the rocket.

That depends. If you trust TFWiki's reasoning then the base is one of his modes. And if you consider anything about the original cartoon's opening animations to be canon then the second season opener shows his tank driving independently before Omega steps on Blitzwing. I personally always assumed the the tank going around the track was a play feature and not necessarily an expectation for kids to keep it on the track because, you know, it's a tank. And we've seen the rocket do its own thing in the cartoon plenty of times so I've always thought of it as third part.

william-james88 wrote:

Emerje wrote:You were right the first time, more or less. Bot modes count as a form on a Triple Changer just like they do on a Six Changer, while Duocons refer to the number parts that form the bot. If you count each mode Tidal Wave really has five forms, and traditionally the multi-changers can only do one form at a time. So I guess he'd be a "Triocon" with two combined forms.

Emerje

You speak of mode and forms, are they one and the same?

Why cant we count it as 3 different modes?
Individual vehiciles
Combined vehicles
Robot mode

And its always only one of those at a time.

Why cant he simply be a combination of different gimicks?

Maybe I'm being confusing using "form" two different ways? For the Triple Changers I me form the same way as mode, for the Duocons I mean it as making something, forming.

If you're going to call the three individual parts one single mode then you'd have to do the same for Duocons, and that would just confuse things. Duocons are named fro their two smallest parts (jet and tank or truck and helicopter) which is why I think calling Tidal Wave a Triocon would be more fitting since it's three boats that just happen to combine into two different ways.

And we're completely forgetting that he can also combine with Galvatron so I think we should just stop trying to classify him all together.

Emerje

Hey guys, as I said, many of these general gimicks will get their own lists. Some are easier than others but I was a bit stumped wth the triple changers. The original G1s are solid and so is the latest with Gen Springer. But theres not much out there. So I was wondering, must a triple changer be labeled so for it to count as a triple changer or is it any robot with 3 modes?

william-james88 wrote:So I was wondering, must a triple changer be labeled so for it to count as a triple changer or is it any robot with 3 modes?

You must like worms.

To me, "Triple changers" are the original 3 Decepticons and 3 Autobots. This is my personal opinion, it's not a fact, I consider only these six as triple changers because they were an "evolution" of Cybertronians. As the G1 years progressed, and as the war progressed, new technology evolved, hence the different gimmicks. So that's why I only consider the original six as they are labelled as such.

Everything that came afterwards is just a gimmick, or for fiction purposes, an ability. They've never really been labelled as triple changers.

Burn wrote:

william-james88 wrote:So I was wondering, must a triple changer be labeled so for it to count as a triple changer or is it any robot with 3 modes?

You must like worms.

To me, "Triple changers" are the original 3 Decepticons and 3 Autobots. This is my personal opinion, it's not a fact, I consider only these six as triple changers because they were an "evolution" of Cybertronians. As the G1 years progressed, and as the war progressed, new technology evolved, hence the different gimmicks. So that's why I only consider the original six as they are labelled as such.

Everything that came afterwards is just a gimmick, or for fiction purposes, an ability. They've never really been labelled as triple changers.

They are labeled as such in titans return though.

william-james88 wrote:They are labeled as such in titans return though.

**** Titans Return. I'm just gonna channel my inner-1984forever and put my foot down and pretend it doesn't exist!

Tricky question. Does turning into armor count? If so then does that make Gaia Unicron a triple changer? Is G1 Galvatron a triple changer? G1 Perceptor? RoTF Mixmaster? Does having a flight mode count as a third mode? If so then is Tracks a triple changer? When does it start to count as a triple changer?

william-james88 wrote:Hey guys, as I said, many of these general gimicks will get their own lists. Some are easier than others but I was a bit stumped wth the triple changers. The original G1s are solid and so is the latest with Gen Springer. But theres not much out there. So I was wondering, must a triple changer be labeled so for it to count as a triple changer or is it any robot with 3 modes?

william-james88 wrote:Hey guys, as I said, many of these general gimicks will get their own lists. Some are easier than others but I was a bit stumped wth the triple changers. The original G1s are solid and so is the latest with Gen Springer. But theres not much out there. So I was wondering, must a triple changer be labeled so for it to count as a triple changer or is it any robot with 3 modes?

Personally for a triple change to be a triple changer whether officially labeled as such or not, several criteria must be met:

1. All 3 modes need to be substantially different from each other. popping out some guns, or wings but leaving the mode un modified otherwise does not a third mode make. Tank to Jet to Robot triple changer. Car to flying Car to robot, not a triple changer (Sorry Tracks.)

2. All 3 modes need to function on their own. They can't require a secondary figure to function. Becoming an arm, or pants for someone else does not count. For instance Armada Jetfire would be disqualified. CW combiner parts also disqualified.

3. The 3rd mode needs to be officially acknowledged in the instructions or other literature. i.e Cybertron Metroplex's spaceship mode is disqualified.

Some examples:

Energon Scorponok and its repaints/retools.

G1 Doubledealer

G1 ApeFace

In Movie Only: Age of Extinction Drift. (no toy to represent this)

william-james88 wrote:Hey guys, as I said, many of these general gimicks will get their own lists. Some are easier than others but I was a bit stumped wth the triple changers. The original G1s are solid and so is the latest with Gen Springer. But theres not much out there. So I was wondering, must a triple changer be labeled so for it to count as a triple changer or is it any robot with 3 modes?

I count anything with 3 advertised modes, so Whirl would count, as would Titans return voyagers and leaders, Metroplex, Fort Max, RotF Mixmaster and such. now combiners with their "3rd or 4th" modes being limbs doesn't count to me

Fires_Of_Inferno wrote:Tricky question. Does turning into armor count? If so then does that make Gaia Unicron a triple changer? Is G1 Galvatron a triple changer? G1 Perceptor? RoTF Mixmaster? Does having a flight mode count as a third mode? If so then is Tracks a triple changer? When does it start to count as a triple changer?

Well yeah thats my question. But then again, I am looking for the best, so 3 modes of any kind can count but if one is just an attach mode (or better yet, Gen Whirl's Gerwalk mode) then its les impressive. But its still a third mode. Thats if we arent putting limitations and being inclusive of all. For me, personally, here is how I would answer your questions:

Turning into armour: I wouldnt count it, sounds like a seperate gimmick
Gaia Unicron: I dont own him but I thought he had a robot mode, a volcano mode and a spaceship mode, does he?
G1 Galvatron: Gun to turret to Robot, sounds like 3 independent modes to me, I say yes
G1 Perceptor: Big time! He even has dedicated parts for each mode, like treads and a wheel that only comes to use when he is a tank. Too bad the instructions deviated from what he was meant to be though, making his once legitimate tank mode now only official in the microchange line but not in the TF line.
ROTF Mixmaster: I say no for that one, its just a random ass attack mode, nothing really unique about it, I see it more like an extension of the robot mode. Just like I wouldnt count Cybertron Crumplezone with his cannons deployed a third mode. But thats just me.
Tracks: Same with him, that flight mode is just an extension of the car mode. Its not a third alt mode, its just a variation on his alt mode.

I would say it starts when you have dedicated parts for a third mode and when it is unique from the other 2. What do you think?

Overcracker wrote:Personally for a triple change to be a triple changer whether officially labeled as such or not, several criteria must be met:

1. All 3 modes need to be substantially different from each other. popping out some guns, or wings but leaving the mode un modified otherwise does not a third mode make. Tank to Jet to Robot triple changer. Car to flying Car to robot, not a triple changer (Sorry Tracks.)

2. All 3 modes need to function on their own. They can't require a secondary figure to function. Becoming an arm, or pants for someone else does not count. For instance Armada Jetfire would be disqualified. CW combiner parts also disqualified.

3. The 3rd mode needs to be officially acknowledged in the instructions or other literature. i.e Cybertron Metroplex's spaceship mode is disqualified.

Some examples:

Energon Scorponok and its repaints/retools.

G1 Doubledealer

G1 ApeFace

In Movie Only: Age of Extinction Drift. (no toy to represent this)

Thanks Overcracker, I will use this. Now here are some examples I wanted to run by you:

Energon Shockwave: Tank, Satelite, Robot
G1 Scorponok: Scorpion, Robot, Base

All have dedicated parts and look different one to the next. For me, they count and they seem to count regarding your criteria but wanted to se your thoughts on them.