The Energon Pub

Tramp wrote:Another thing that we need to look at is the wildlife on Cybertron, which we know exists. Both G1 Mirage's and movie Arcee's bios state that they each hunt turbo-foxes for sport, an animal. A mechaniod animal. I highly doubt these are made in factories. They would need to self-reproduce, probably just like a real fox. Also, look at the Scrap-metals/Rambles from Cybertron/Galaxy Force These are bugs that travel form planet to planet devouring everything in their paths. Certainly no one would intentionally be making these in factories. They would have to be capable of breeding. Another example of autopoietic reproduction, and probably sexual reproduction.

Most of these animals ie - the laserbeaks and rambles from the Cybertron continuity are depicted as genderless and non-sentient. I'm going for some form of self-replication here, as it would explain away their all-consuming and swarm-like nature, similar to those blue bug-things from Stargate and Tribbles.

slycherrychunks wrote:

Tramp wrote:Another thing that we need to look at is the wildlife on Cybertron, which we know exists. Both G1 Mirage's and movie Arcee's bios state that they each hunt turbo-foxes for sport, an animal. A mechaniod animal. I highly doubt these are made in factories. They would need to self-reproduce, probably just like a real fox. Also, look at the Scrap-metals/Rambles from Cybertron/Galaxy Force These are bugs that travel form planet to planet devouring everything in their paths. Certainly no one would intentionally be making these in factories. They would have to be capable of breeding. Another example of autopoietic reproduction, and probably sexual reproduction.

Most of these animals ie - the laserbeaks and rambles from the Cybertron continuity are depicted as genderless and non-sentient. I'm going for some form of self-replication here, as it would explain away their all-consuming and swarm-like nature, similar to those blue bug-things from Stargate and Tribbles.

ahhh, tribbles!

I forgot about the animals and the Scrap-Metals. Supposedly either could just split in half by division, but that is the only other way I could think of besides sexual reproduction that they could reproduce.
They can't use Vector Sigma, they have no access to a Creation Matrix, and all other generations besides the first couple are probably not built in factories. Plus as they are animals, they may not even know how to use these things.

I imagine they eventually evolved to become very fast, to catch prey and to escape predators. I also imagine they have a keen sense of smell and hearing so they could detect a predator and escape before it could catch them, probably something even faster maybe or is stealthier. It could be they can run very fast or fly, or they have wheels to move around.

Starscream is a female in France. I have heard it from several people on here. I think when the French dubbers heard the high pitched voice Latta did, they thought that Starscream was a female character in the show. So when they redubbed the cartoon, they went with a female actor to go with a "female" character.

I heard something about them wanting more diversity in transformers, so that it would appeal to a wider audience.

Something like that anyhows

A little girl's doll in a "let's pretend" is not an issue.

Actually it is. I was point out in fiction anything can happen reguardless of the laws of science applied in real life, so long as you're willing to suspend your disbelief. Just as the kid's doll is "alive", the Transformers can also be "alive" simply because somebody decides they are.....without meeting the real-life scientific criteria for life.
Your own argument can be used against you easily simply by the fact that you are deciding yourself what disbelief others should or shouldn't suspend....& apparently, it's ok to think that robots, aside from being metal-based, function near exact to how humans do down to the cellular makeup & reproductive organs, but it's too far of a stretch to think that they could be considered alive without meeting the real-life scientific criteria. & in the past 23 years of enjoying transformers, not once did I hear anybody ever say that alien robots being considered alive was utter bullsh*t, because they suspended their disbelief.

It has already been established that MTMTE #8 does not mention reproduction, & the only other source that directly shows reproduction was that obscure japanese Manga, which after reading up about it....was only added for comic relief & was not meant to be taken as serious canon (The whole purpose of the destrons stealing energy, causing mass destruction, & continuing a full-blown war was to save the starvin' children ).

Your reasoning is utter bullsh*t, your sources are utter bullsh*t, & your whole angle for why TFs have to be able to have sex can be condensed to one simple reason: because you think they should. You are not willing to suspend your diseblief to consider that life in fiction can be considered alive without meeting the criteria for life. But just because you can't see them as being alive, just like in the scenario above with the doll, dosen't mean others can't either. & I'm not talking about just the posters in this thread. I'm talking about anybody that has ever picked up a toy, watched a cartoon, or read a comic. [/i]

slycherrychunks wrote:

Tramp wrote:Another thing that we need to look at is the wildlife on Cybertron, which we know exists. Both G1 Mirage's and movie Arcee's bios state that they each hunt turbo-foxes for sport, an animal. A mechaniod animal. I highly doubt these are made in factories. They would need to self-reproduce, probably just like a real fox. Also, look at the Scrap-metals/Rambles from Cybertron/Galaxy Force These are bugs that travel form planet to planet devouring everything in their paths. Certainly no one would intentionally be making these in factories. They would have to be capable of breeding. Another example of autopoietic reproduction, and probably sexual reproduction.

Most of these animals ie - the laserbeaks and rambles from the Cybertron continuity are depicted as genderless and non-sentient. I'm going for some form of self-replication here, as it would explain away their all-consuming and swarm-like nature, similar to those blue bug-things from Stargate and Tribbles.

Not necessarily. Non-sentient yes, but not necessarily genderless. Remember, many animals don't have sexual dimorphism, particularly Eagles and Hawks, which are what the "Laserbeaks" are, and many insect species, like the Scrapmetals/Rambles. So, they could very well have males and females, but we wouldn't know which is which.

Nemesis Cyberplex wrote:Actually it is. I was point out in fiction anything can happen reguardless of the laws of science applied in real life, so long as you're willing to suspend your disbelief. Just as the kid's doll is "alive", the Transformers can also be "alive" simply because somebody decides they are.....without meeting the real-life scientific criteria for life.
Your own argument can be used against you easily simply by the fact that you are deciding yourself what disbelief others should or shouldn't suspend....& apparently, it's ok to think that robots, aside from being metal-based, function near exact to how humans do down to the cellular makeup & reproductive organs, but it's too far of a stretch to think that they could be considered alive without meeting the real-life scientific criteria. & in the past 23 years of enjoying transformers, not once did I hear anybody ever say that alien robots being considered alive was utter bullsh*t, because they suspended their disbelief.

It has already been established that MTMTE #8 does not mention reproduction, & the only other source that directly shows reproduction was that obscure japanese Manga, which after reading up about it....was only added for comic relief & was not meant to be taken as serious canon (The whole purpose of the destrons stealing energy, causing mass destruction, & continuing a full-blown war was to save the starvin' children Rolling Eyes ).

Your reasoning is utter bullsh*t, your sources are utter bullsh*t, & your whole angle for why TFs have to be able to have sex can be condensed to one simple reason: because you think they should. You are not willing to suspend your diseblief to consider that life in fiction can be considered alive without meeting the criteria for life. But just because you can't see them as being alive, just like in the scenario above with the doll, dosen't mean others can't either. & I'm not talking about just the posters in this thread. I'm talking about anybody that has ever picked up a toy, watched a cartoon, or read a comic. [/i]

Actually, the reason why the families of the Decepticons were shown, including Deathsaurus' wife, Liozak's siter, and the DinoForces offspring was not for comic relief. It was to show the Autobots that the Decepticons were really no different than them. The Decepticons were fighting to save their families, just as much as the Autobots were protectiong theirs. They were actaully there for a very serieous purpose—to bring an end to the war on a peaceful note rather than the destruction of one side or the other. On top of that, MtMTE #8 mentions the possibility of other methods of creating new Transformer life aside from the use of Protoforms. Add to that, the Victory manga, as well as the children from Lithone, as well as the romantic relationships between male and female Transformers, the fact that they have males and females at all, the courtships and marriages from all of the continuities, the families, all these combined is what leads me to this conclusion.

As for this being fiction and thus exempt from sicentific law goes, that is BS. All scinece fiction has to have a basis in science. IT has to meet certain scientific realities or it will fall apart. You cannot ignore everything. That is why it is called Sicence Fiction. Sou still need to keep that scientific basis grounded in reality. Some things you can "stretch" such as mass conversion and faster-than-light travel. But others cannot be messed with without destroying suspension of disbelief. What determines what is or is not life is not something that can really be messed with or overlooked. It is these criteria which are universal to every form of life, both known and unknown, both real and theoretical, and our only gauge to determine if what we discover on other worlds is life or not. That is why it cannot be overlooked. These seven criteria are all we have to determine if we are alone in the universe. That is why they cannot be ignored even in science fiction.

The "kid's doll' argument is not a valid argument because when you are playiung with a child with her doll, you are pretending that the doll is a baby, not a doll. Just as when a child plays with his TransFormers toys, he is pretending that these are the real characters.

Zombie Starscream wrote:I forgot about the animals and the Scrap-Metals. Supposedly either could just split in half by division, but that is the only other way I could think of besides sexual reproduction that they could reproduce.
They can't use Vector Sigma, they have no access to a Creation Matrix, and all other generations besides the first couple are probably not built in factories. Plus as they are animals, they may not even know how to use these things.

I imagine they eventually evolved to become very fast, to catch prey and to escape predators. I also imagine they have a keen sense of smell and hearing so they could detect a predator and escape before it could catch them, probably something even faster maybe or is stealthier. It could be they can run very fast or fly, or they have wheels to move around.

Starscream is a female in France. I have heard it from several people on here. I think when the French dubbers heard the high pitched voice Latta did, they thought that Starscream was a female character in the show. So when they redubbed the cartoon, they went with a female actor to go with a "female" character.

Mitosis is only used for simple single-celled organisms, or nanites. Larger life forms are really too complex to use it as a means for reproduction, so sexual reproduction still makes more sense. As for Starscream, is there any official confirmation on that? It doesn't matter one way or another anyway, but it is an interesting bit of trivia and in no way changes it's status or the relevance of any officially produced source in this debate.

As for this being fiction and thus exempt from sicentific law goes, that is BS. All scinece fiction has to have a basis in science. IT has to meet certain scientific realities or it will fall apart. You cannot ignore everything. That is why it is called Sicence Fiction. Sou still need to keep that scientific basis grounded in reality. Some things you can "stretch" such as mass conversion and faster-than-light travel. But others cannot be messed with without destroying suspension of disbelief. What determines what is or is not life is not something that can really be messed with or overlooked. It is these criteria which are universal to every form of life, both known and unknown, both real and theoretical, and our only gauge to determine if what we discover on other worlds is life or not. That is why it cannot be overlooked. These seven criteria are all we have to determine if we are alone in the universe. That is why they cannot be ignored even in science fiction.

See, this was exactly what I was talking about. You are deciding for yourself what can & cannot be suspended. How is life in a fantasy setting existing without meeting real-life criteria more unbeilevable to a giant robot being able to shrink down to the size of a handheld devce? The answer is it's not. You think it is, & therefore you are trying to dictate to everybody else what has to be believed, & what can be tossed aside. & the most hillarious part of all of this is....you're just a fan like the rest of us. You're not Hasbro, you're not Takara, You're not a cartoon writer, you're not Simon Furman....yet you're acting like you're calling the shots on what is accepted & what is ignored, & so therefore Transformers cannot just build more & be considered alive in a fantasy setting, they have to have sex,.....& all of this based on obscure comics/manga & real-life science that doesn't apply to fiction except because you say it does & you can't accept that in fiction, life can exist without meeting your precious criteria for real life.

Tramp wrote:
Damolisher, I know as much, if not more, about the TransFormers than you. I'm probably a lot older than you and have been watching and reading the TransFormers from the very beginning. What I don't know I look up. Secondly, you do not make the determination of what is and is not canon. Period. Everything officially licensed by both Hasbor and Takara is canon! On top of that, you are the one who brought up Starscream being female in France, which, by the way, I highly doubt. Regardless, It still doesn't matter. We are not just discussing US and UK G1. We are talking the entirety of TransFormers lore. Not US TF lore, Not UK TF lore, Not Japanese TF lore, Not French TF lore. All TransFormers lore. By that standard, Everything officially licensed and produced by both Hasbro and Takara is 100% relevant. Deal with it, accept it or leave the discussion. And, if you can't be civil, also please leave the discussion. This is suposed to be a friendy debate. IF you cannot do so, bow out now.

As for why do we need to apply real life laws to science fiction? somple. Without them, suspension of disbelif is destroyed. Any story, no matter how fantastic has to have some basis in reality. It has to follow at least most laws of physics. And those laws that are "stretched" have to be done in such a way as to appear believable. The laws governing what is and is not life is one law that is never "streched" All life, real, theoretical, or wholly imagined, is held up to those same seven criteria.

A little girl's doll in a "let's pretend" is not an issue.

Also, what I have presented is also based 100% on canon evidence. It is based upon fact, both real world and TF fact. It is based upon facts and observations of the various characters behaviors, and relationships in every single TF series and story. Not just one series, not just one continuity, not just one contry's contiuity. Every continuity. Ypou ar elimiting yourself to a single story line—US/UK G1. That is not the end-all-be-all of TF lore.

As fro TF:MtMtE, yes, it is a difinitive source. It is also completely relevant. If you had your way, we would only be discussing the US and UK Marvel comics and maybe the US cartoon. Guess what. That is not the entirety of TF canon. And I will no limit myself to just those sources because they are not the only sources relevant to this discussion. You have absolutely no authority to decide what is not canon. Only Hasbro and Takara have that authority. And, the fact that this site is an international website which caters to the entire TransFormers line, both US and Japanese, and has members from all around the world, you absolutely cannot discount any officially produced TF lore. All officially produced TF lore is appropriate to this discussion, and will not discount any of it simply because of your narrow-mindedness.

As for the TransFormers being machines? yes they are machines. so what! They are still life forms. Mechanical life forms. Robotic life forms. They are not Earth machines. They are living, breathing, eating life composed of mechanical, rather than organic, matter.

Breathing? OK, it's official: Your arguments mean nothing. And I'm not going to leave the discussion, since you're not the bloody discussion police. You're some hack who thinks that some crappy manga written by some idiot in Japan who no-one cares about and a set of guidebooks written 20 YEARS AFTER THE CARTOON, AND AREN'T EVEN CONSIDERED CANON BY DREAMWAVE AS HAS BEEN STATED UMPTEEN TIMES make your ludicrously impossible argument have merit, and your constant selective referencing makes your argument even harder to follow. Not only that, but as soon as I bought up Transformers who couldn't have genitalia because of their transformations, I got hit with "Maybe it's somewhere else!"

Or maybe it's not there, which any logically intelligent person will tell you, because robots that are built, or asexually reproduce have no reason to sexually reproduce, hell, they're robots, and they don't need to reproduce. You use two sources of information as opposed to the seemingly endless sources we have to argue against you. You keep trying to thumb "science" at us, when you've got some many other scientifically impossible elements of Transformers as it is. And I will reiterate: At no point is it ever concretely stated Transformers can reproduce sexually (Being that they're made of metal and circuits, OBVIOUSLY) yet it is consistently stated regardless of series that Transformers are built by other slagging Transformers.

And it would be bloody illogical that a female Transformer would get pregnant, since it's quicker to build them anyway. And I know I don't determine what's canon and what's not canon. I'm stating what we know is canon and what isn't. YOU'RE the one trying to dictate what canon is, not me. And if you know as much about Transformers as you thought, we wouldn't be having this stupid argument, would we? Oh, and your argument to your doll thing now takes the cake as most moronic selective argument ever. The toys come before the cartoon, not the other way around. And the cartoon isn't real, so the kid doesn't HAVE to act like the character from the show.

And Cyberplex, man, you're owning Tramp, and all Mr Robosex is gonna counter with is his argument every time he can't counter something. "Duh, my crappy science rules and lame books say blah, blah, blah, and I have issues." (Yeah, I'm being rude. At least I don't think robots should be having sex because I say so.")

Air Commander Starscream wrote:Alright guys and gals lets get this topic back on track:

babylon queen's original topic wrote:TRansformers are mostly boy toys but since they do have fembots .Shouldn't HAsbro have transformers for girls? They can have a line with only female transformers. Have actually a boy or two in the line even though they are really needed. The fembots don't need to compete or impress them to reproduce only to impress or companionship. They should have female leaders as well.

This thread is not here to argue about the reproductive style of Transformers. (Which if I recall in "Five Faces of the Darkside" shows the Transformers being CONSTRUCTED). Please lets get back to the original topic at hand.

no offence mods, but that was 11 pages ago, why hasnt this been shut down. To be quite honest, i'm sick of these guys being at each others throats. None of them has the slightest inclination of being cival with one another, or even opening their minds to the opposing arguments!

Nemesis Cyberplex wrote:

As for this being fiction and thus exempt from sicentific law goes, that is BS. All scienece fiction has to have a basis in science. IT has to meet certain scientific realities or it will fall apart. You cannot ignore everything. That is why it is called Sicence Fiction. Sou still need to keep that scientific basis grounded in reality. Some things you can "stretch" such as mass conversion and faster-than-light travel. But others cannot be messed with without destroying suspension of disbelief. What determines what is or is not life is not something that can really be messed with or overlooked. It is these criteria which are universal to every form of life, both known and unknown, both real and theoretical, and our only gauge to determine if what we discover on other worlds is life or not. That is why it cannot be overlooked. These seven criteria are all we have to determine if we are alone in the universe. That is why they cannot be ignored even in science fiction.

See, this was exactly what I was talking about. You are deciding for yourself what can & cannot be suspended. How is life in a fantasy setting existing without meeting real-life criteria more unbeilevable to a giant robot being able to shrink down to the size of a handheld devce? The answer is it's not. You think it is, & therefore you are trying to dictate to everybody else what has to be believed, & what can be tossed aside. & the most hillarious part of all of this is....you're just a fan like the rest of us. You're not Hasbro, you're not Takara, You're not a cartoon writer, you're not Simon Furman....yet you're acting like you're calling the shots on what is accepted & what is ignored, & so therefore Transformers cannot just build more & be considered alive in a fantasy setting, they have to have sex,.....& all of this based on obscure comics/manga & real-life science that doesn't apply to fiction except because you say it does & you can't accept that in fiction, life can exist without meeting your precious criteria for real life.

First off Nemeisis, I am not the only one who has said that these sources as well as these scentific criteria must be applied. If you go back through, a number of others have said the exact same thing. They do apply, and the scientific criteria does need to be used. You may not like it, but oh well. They apply.

Secondly, I was at Barnes and Noble today going through some passages in the TransFormers the Ultimate Guide, and found some very interesting pieces that had more veracity to my side of the debate while also addressing yours. They also confirm some suspicions of mine and theories presented by Zombie Starscream and other supporters that the reason why TransFormers have to currently use factory produced Protoforms for creating new life is indeed the complete loss of the female population, which resulted in an effectively "genderless" society. There are three passages in particular.

(from The Well of All Sparks, page 11 wrote:
Through its guardian, Alpha Trion, Primus maintained a vigil over his "children", but his direct link was severed when Cybertron was invaded by armies of a marauding alien race.

(from Quintessans, pagwe 52 wrote:
The extent of the Quintessan's involvement in the creation of the TransFormers race is still largely a matter of conjecture. Certainly, these cruel machinist intellects influenced the TranmsFormers early development, and perhaps even attacked and colonized Cybertron at one or more times in its past

That section further goes on to say that Cybertron remains and extremely important part of their schemes ans is highly desired by them.

from Arcee page 25 wrote:Notable for her rare female styling and warrior status, Arcee tries hard to shrug off the strange gender-based bias of her peers. Strange because TransFormers are inherently non-gender-specific, and only some quirk of their timelost origins can account for the difference in her appearance and attitude

.

Now. You may ask how this confirms the theory that TransFormers do indeed have genders and are capable of sexual reproduction. Think on this.

Primus created the TransFormers male and female starting with the original 13, most of whom werre lost in battle against Unicron. During this time, Quintessans invaded Cybertron and enslaved the TransFormers, seperating them into two distinct lines—one would become the Autobots, the other would eventually become the Decepticons. They were successfully driven off, but their influence remained resulting in the rise of the Decepticons and the start of the Great War, though, through the events in War Within, they remained male and female breeding as would be normal for a sexual reproducing species. Then, some time in the distant past, probably after the Ark left, the Quintessans invaded Cybertron again, and attempted to enslave the TransFormers. When the Quintessans were driven off this time, they took every female. This resulted in a single-gender society—an effectively genderless society which has to rely on factory-built protoforms imbuded with a spark in order to create new life. Then some time recently, after the Great Shut-Down and possibly the reawakening by Shockwave, Arcee appeared working in a factory before joining up with the Autobots (it is possible she could have been planted during the Great Shutdown, but that is unconfirmed)—the first female TransFormer in millions of years. This, of course, unlocks long-buried, and deep-rooted gender-based biases in the males, as well as sexual interest of Hot Rod and Springer. According to the DW comics, she had been sent to infiltrate the Autobots for some mysterious purpose, apparently to spy on the Autobots. This is further confirmed in issues #0 and #10. In issue #0 of the regular series, we see the Quintessans plotting the retaking of Cybertron. Of note is the guards to their inner sanctum. Female Cybertronians; in particular, the female Autobots, Firestar and Moonracer. In issue #10, the Quintessans are nearing the completion of their plan and initiating their final phase, beginning with the abduction of Hot Rod, as they prepare to send out their extraction team led by none other than Elita-1.
This confirms that at one time, yes, the TransFormers did have actual genders, but the females were indeed taken resulting in a genderless society which had to resort to factory built protoforms to continue the species. The missing system to allow the TransFormers other methods of creating new life is females. This becomnes more clear once we move past G1 into the Japanese series (including the Manga version of Victory, as well as Beast Wars and Beast Machines, where females are more prevalent, and Protoforms are no longer used for creating new life, but instead for transport over long distances. In Beast Wars[/b], the Maximal "protoforms" already have a spark. They are kept in stasis, for long journeys in an "unformatted" state. Oh, and for the record, the Ultimate Guide does discuss the Japanese series, particularly the toy line, just not in full detail. Therfore, it is still canon. The Ultimate Guide also states that most of the Marvel run is one of many "alternate" realities. and the book goes through the entire history of the TFs from G1 all the way through [i]Energon and into the IDW books and the Classics line. The one thing it didn't go into any depth on was Cybertron, possibly because it only had the cartoon, while Armada[i/]and [i]Energon had comics as well.

Tie the quoted passages fron the Ultimate Guide in with the statement in MtMtE # 8 regarding the other possible methods of creating new life, as well as the other evidence from the various other series, and the conclusion is clear. The Quintessans did take all of the TransFormer females resulting in a single-gender society that stood for millions of years, to the point where "male" was the standard, and the TransFormers were, for all intents and purposes, truely genderless. Before that time though, and after the reintegration of females, they were, and became again, a dual-gender society capable of some form of sexual reproduction.

Who cares if you are a chick who likes TF. You are not alone.Ive always like sci-fi and fantasy stuff and TF comes under that category. Been a fan of Optimus Prime since I was about 5-6 years old. Something about him that is so fatherly I think. There should be more female characters in the TF universe but that's up to the writers to do that.

Tramp, I never argued the existance of females...just them having a sexual point. Every show of creation in TF canon shows them either being built in a factory, by Primus directly, or if you want to count the new movie, & I do, since it's canon(& probably moreso than other series if for no other reason than the fact that it's nearing its $1 billion mark), by the Allspark, which I might add Prime destinctively says in the opening that they are all born from it(which also backs up my fiction claim that Tfs can be alive without reproducing via sex). & after that, all you have left is:

A: vauge references to comic guidebooks referring to "other means" that could just as easily mean something like the spark joining mentioned earlier to other artifacts, such as the Allspark Cube or the Creation Matrix.

B: a Japanese manga that shows destrons with a wife & kids (which after think about it, it does not mention where these came from or for what purpose. The children could have easily been built from spare parts, creating via cloning, or some other means for the sole purpose of giving the destrons some insight on why other alien species they interact with find "families" so special Same goes for Deathsarus & his "wife".)

C: a criteria for life, which I might add I pointed out earlier, though you blantly ignored, this may change with new discoveries...cause that's how science works(you know, at one point it was believed that the world was flat, & that Earth was the center of the universe, & more recently that dinosaurs were akin to lizards rather than birds). & also pointed out that TF lore is fiction & real-life rules do not necessarily have to apply, wether others in this thread think it should or not.

D: A bunch of "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" innuendos, such as the Hot Rod/Arcee/Springer, that could just as easily be superficial as not.

E: Wheelie being called a child, which really tells us nothing other than he's young. it is more likely, giving g1's factory reproduction that he was a recent model, & his size is due to him being a minibot like Bumblebee & Brawn, especially since they never show him "grow up".

But you have been able to give no concrete evidence that TFs have sex, or are even capable of doing so.

Which now I bring back my original point: Female TFs are only preference They do not have to be there. They are, but they don't have to be.

ThunderThruster wrote:

Air Commander Starscream wrote:Alright guys and gals lets get this topic back on track:

babylon queen's original topic wrote:TRansformers are mostly boy toys but since they do have fembots .Shouldn't HAsbro have transformers for girls? They can have a line with only female transformers. Have actually a boy or two in the line even though they are really needed. The fembots don't need to compete or impress them to reproduce only to impress or companionship. They should have female leaders as well.

This thread is not here to argue about the reproductive style of Transformers. (Which if I recall in "Five Faces of the Darkside" shows the Transformers being CONSTRUCTED). Please lets get back to the original topic at hand.

no offence mods, but that was 11 pages ago, why hasnt this been shut down. To be quite honest, i'm sick of these guys being at each others throats. None of them has the slightest inclination of being cival with one another, or even opening their minds to the opposing arguments!

On the contrary, I have been nothing but civil. Despite the constant "yes it is" "no it isn't" nature of the discussion, it has yet to erupt into any sort of flame war, & I have no intention of having it do that...at least not on my end. & even then it's not entirely off topic. One thing Babylon Queen did mention was that they wouldn't need to have male figures in the line for reprodction, which started the whole debate. So it hasn't been so much that any of this is off topic as it has been focusing on a smaller section of the topic.

Nemesis, Those Transformers built from Protoforms all emerge as adults, not as children. The examples given are of children, they are physical children, small in size, with a child's proportions, not adult proportions. The ones from Victory in particular, are chibis. You do know what a chibi is don't you?
These are the Decepticons' families. Wives, sisters, and children. What purpose do you think wives are for, or where do you think children come from? If TFs were organic there would be no question. Organic or not makes no dofference. The intended implication from the series itself and the introduction of the Decepticon families is that these women and children are literally the families of these Decepticons; that the children were born from the unions of the decepticons with their wives. In other words, sexual reproduction. That is what they are showing. and as for wheelie, considering the lifespans of TransFormers, it would take a significant length of time for Wheelie to grow up; much longer than a human would. On top of that, we only see one or two years of his development; three when you add in Headmasters. Of course we would not see him physically grow. He isn't a rabbit or other animal which reaches adulthood in a mater of a few weeks or months. More than likely, it takes centuries to mature. Wheelie is literally a child.

As for the movie and the Allspark, as has been stated by Robert Orci himself, the Allspark is not meant to be used directly to turn a non-living machine into TransFormer life. To do so results in a mindless killing machine. The Allspark is meant to be use to bring life to the planet and through the planet allow life to flourish. Prime intended to use the Allspark to revitalize the planet so that it could thrive once again and support life and the TransFormers could thrive as well. He never intended to use it on machines to make new TransFormers directly. That is not the purpose of the Allspark.

As for the criteria of life, no, it is not likely to change. Everything on that list is essential for the survival of a life form or the species. Of all of the criteria, the ability to procreate is of utmost importance because without it, the species cannot continue past the current generation. There is not a single example of a species which cannot reproduce becasue any that did would die out. That makes autopoietic reproduction absolutely essential.

As for Arcee, Hot Rod, and Springer, no, that is not superficial. Arcee's Bio in both MtMtE #1, and her movie bio from the Marvel Universe handbook confirms this, and is clearly demonstrated in the comics. It has also been specifically stated by the voice actress who played Arcee that theire was romantic interest between Hot Rod and Arcee and also between Springer and Arcee. The love triangle plot is there and confirmed in both print and the cartoons and by the voice actress herself. There is no "nudge, nudge, wink, wink,"

Third, the only "concrete" evidence that you would likely accept is actually seeing them engaged in the act, and that wil never be sen because it isn't appropriate for children. Therfore you have to look at the evidence we do have. We have the fact that in the ancient past, Cybertron had both sexes, Arcee's Ultimate Guide bio confirms this stating her appearance is from the timelost past. Cybertron was invaded in the ancient past by the Quintessans at least twice, the first resulting in the transFormers being cut off from their creator, and the second resulting in the removal of every last female leaving the TransFormers an essentially genderless race.

What other purpose besides reproduction is there for genders, courtship, and marriage? There is none. The only purpose they serve is to facilitate reproduction. The pasages from the Ultimate Guide confirmn that female TransFormers were plentiful in Cybertron's past, but that they completely disappeared millions of years prior to the modern era. This is confirmed by all three passages from the guide I posted. They were all taken by the Quintessans, leaving an essentially genderless society. A society of all males reliant on artifical means to continue the species.
The "other potential" refered to in MtMtE #8 are means that do not require protoforms. Thus, they do not require the Matrix or Vector Sigma, both of which bring protoforms to life. Also, according to the Ultimate guide, the Matrix is not limitless. It's power cannot be used indefinately. That means that use of it would need to be done sparingly. That certainly does not sound like an optimal way to keep the species going.

Being male or female is not a personal preference of the TransFormer, just as we do not choose what sex we are. They are born or created that way. It isn't choice.

The only reason why you can't accept the possibility of transFormers being capable of sexual reproduction is because they are mechanical life forms. Once again, so what!. They are still living beings. There is no real reason why they shouldn't be capable of it. their being mechanical is not a reason. It is actually, the ultimate in human huberous to assume that only organic life could possibly reproduce through natural means such as sexual reproduction.

Nemesis Cyberplex wrote:C: a criteria for life, which I might add I pointed out earlier, though you blantly ignored, this may change with new discoveries...cause that's how science works(you know, at one point it was believed that the world was flat, & that Earth was the center of the universe, & more recently that dinosaurs were akin to lizards rather than birds).

E: Wheelie being called a child, which really tells us nothing other than he's young. it is more likely, giving g1's factory reproduction that he was a recent model, & his size is due to him being a minibot like Bumblebee & Brawn, especially since they never show him "grow up".

2 points that are distinctly hard to argue against.
Yes the 7 criteria for life are the current marker by which life is defined, but as we learn more about life and the universe, they will undoubtedly evolve.
ok it could be argued that you'd never see brawn grow up, cause he got killed off in the movie, but i already thought that he was pretty old anyway, so as young as wheelie is suppossed to be, i do doubt that he'd 'grow up'.

apologise to Nemesis Cyberplex, i wasnt trying to singling anybody out, but at times this thread has become little more than a school yard brawl!

ThunderThruster wrote:

Nemesis Cyberplex wrote:C: a criteria for life, which I might add I pointed out earlier, though you blantly ignored, this may change with new discoveries...cause that's how science works(you know, at one point it was believed that the world was flat, & that Earth was the center of the universe, & more recently that dinosaurs were akin to lizards rather than birds).

E: Wheelie being called a child, which really tells us nothing other than he's young. it is more likely, giving g1's factory reproduction that he was a recent model, & his size is due to him being a minibot like Bumblebee & Brawn, especially since they never show him "grow up".

2 points that are distinctly hard to argue against.
Yes the 7 criteria for life are the current marker by which life is defined, but as we learn more about life and the universe, they will undoubtedly evolve.

And even then, I doubt it will change very much. Certainly there will be parts whcih would remain and reproduction is top of that list.

ok it could be argued that you'd never see brawn grow up, cause he got killed off in the movie, but i already thought that he was pretty old anyway, so as young as wheelie is suppossed to be, i do doubt that he'd 'grow up'.

apologise to Nemesis Cyberplex, i wasnt trying to singling anybody out, but at times this thread has become little more than a school yard brawl!

With Brawn, I would equate him more with a dwarf than a child. you also have to consider that just as humanity comes in a wide variety of hieghts and builds, so do TransFormers. So, while Brawn is simply short and stout because of his natural build, Wheelie is not yet fully grown.

Tramp, has anyone told you, you've got more lives than a cat?

Tramp wrote:Nemesis, Those Transformers built from Protoforms all emerge as adults, not as children. The examples given are of children, they are physical children, small in size, with a child's proportions, not adult proportions. The ones from Victory in particular, are chibis. You do know what a chibi is don't you?
These are the Decepticons' families. Wives, sisters, and children. What purpose do you think wives are for, or where do you think children come from? If TFs were organic there would be no question. Organic or not makes no dofference. The intended implication from the series itself and the introduction of the Decepticon families is that these women and children are literally the families of these Decepticons; that the children were born from the unions of the decepticons with their wives. In other words, sexual reproduction. That is what they are showing. and as for wheelie, considering the lifespans of TransFormers, it would take a significant length of time for Wheelie to grow up; much longer than a human would. On top of that, we only see one or two years of his development; three when you add in Headmasters. Of course we would not see him physically grow. He isn't a rabbit or other animal which reaches adulthood in a mater of a few weeks or months. More than likely, it takes centuries to mature. Wheelie is literally a child.

All you are doing here is drawing conclusions from very limited info. As I mentioned, they do not delve into their origins, so you cannot assume anything. Maybe the "children" are smaller newly built protoforms that the dinoforce adopted...maybe not. & I assure you, if you ever walk down a street & exclaim that wives are solely for procreation & everything else is superficial, you will be b*tchslapped so quickly your head would spin.

As for the movie and the Allspark, as has been stated by Robert Orci himself, the Allspark is not meant to be used directly to turn a non-living machine into TransFormer life. To do so results in a mindless killing machine. The Allspark is meant to be use to bring life to the planet and through the planet allow life to flourish. Prime intended to use the Allspark to revitalize the planet so that it could thrive once again and support life and the TransFormers could thrive as well. He never intended to use it on machines to make new TransFormers directly. That is not the purpose of the Allspark.

all irrelevant, as I was referring to Optimus's line reguarding that all of the Transformers, not Earth tech, were born from the Allspark.
nice try, though. well, not really.

As for the criteria of life, no, it is not likely to change. Everything on that list is essential for the survival of a life form or the species. Of all of the criteria, the ability to procreate is of utmost importance because without it, the species cannot continue past the current generation. There is not a single example of a species which cannot reproduce becasue any that did would die out. That makes autopoietic reproduction absolutely essential.

Once again...fiction. I'm not going through this again, since you can't seem to accept that there is a difference between fiction & reality.

As for Arcee, Hot Rod, and Springer, no, that is not superficial. Arcee's Bio in both MtMtE #1, and her movie bio from the Marvel Universe handbook confirms this, and is clearly demonstrated in the comics. It has also been specifically stated by the voice actress who played Arcee that theire was romantic interest between Hot Rod and Arcee and also between Springer and Arcee. The love triangle plot is there and confirmed in both print and the cartoons and by the voice actress herself. There is no "nudge, nudge, wink, wink,"

superficial meaning aside from companionship, nothing will come of either one...besides, everybody knows that while Hot Rod & Springer was duking it out, Arcee was giving Daniel head.

Third, the only "concrete" evidence that you would likely accept is actually seeing them engaged in the act, and that wil never be sen because it isn't appropriate for children. Therfore you have to look at the evidence we do have. We have the fact that in the ancient past, Cybertron had both sexes, Arcee's Ultimate Guide bio confirms this stating her appearance is from the timelost past. Cybertron was invaded in the ancient past by the Quintessans at least twice, the first resulting in the transFormers being cut off from their creator, and the second resulting in the removal of every last female leaving the TransFormers an essentially genderless race.

Right there is no evidence, only drawing conclusions that are probably not there. You make my point perfectly here. Next

What other purpose besides reproduction is there for genders, courtship, and marriage? There is none. The only purpose they serve is to facilitate reproduction. The pasages from the Ultimate Guide confirmn that female TransFormers were plentiful in Cybertron's past, but that they completely disappeared millions of years prior to the modern era. This is confirmed by all three passages from the guide I posted. They were all taken by the Quintessans, leaving an essentially genderless society. A society of all males reliant on artifical means to continue the species.
The "other potential" refered to in MtMtE #8 are means that do not require protoforms. Thus, they do not require the Matrix or Vector Sigma, both of which bring protoforms to life. Also, according to the Ultimate guide, the Matrix is not limitless. It's power cannot be used indefinately. That means that use of it would need to be done sparingly. That certainly does not sound like an optimal way to keep the species going.

what other purpose is there? companionship, public relations with other alien life forms....once again, something that if you walked down the street & mnetioned that women are simply for precreation, you would get slapped for, at least.

Being male or female is not a personal preference of the TransFormer, just as we do not choose what sex we are. They are born or created that way. It isn't choice.

I was referring to preference of the writers, not preference of the TFs themselves. TFs needing females for any reason is simply writer preference.

The only reason why you can't accept the possibility of transFormers being capable of sexual reproduction is because they are mechanical life forms. Once again, so what!. They are still living beings. There is no real reason why they shouldn't be capable of it. their being mechanical is not a reason. It is actually, the ultimate in human huberous to assume that only organic life could possibly reproduce through natural means such as sexual reproduction.

you're right, there is no real reason why they couldn't. But on the contrary, there is also no real reason why they should be capable of it either. But using your own argument, I would say it would be human hubris to assume that life is only possible through the same reproduction processes organic life is capable of, specifically in a way that meets your precious criteria, such as sexual reproduction.

Tramp, get the picture, OK? You are wrong. Your laws are wrong. I can't believe you don't know what the hell a machine is. LOOK AT ANY INTERNAL DIAGRAM OF A TRANSFORMER, AND YOU WILL SEE NO SEXUAL ORGANS AT ALL! And don't tell me " It'z 4 CHilRnZ! My pissy single weak defence protecting my brainless crappy argument of 7 laws that only apply to real life will save me! They wouldn't show sex organs in a kids product!" because here's the thing: Why wouldn't they? If Transformers did have sex organs, they'd have at least verified it in the Ultimate guide by FLAT OUT STATING TRANSFORMERS CAN HAVE SEX. BUT THEY CAN'T! AND WHY CAN THEY NOT HAVE SEX?! THEY'RE F*CKING ROBOTS!

Oh, and I also LOVE the way you dodged my prior post from earlier this morning. Still trying to come up with lame excuses for that one?

Damolisher wrote:Tramp, get the picture, OK? You are wrong. Your laws are wrong. I can't believe you don't know what the hell a machine is. LOOK AT ANY INTERNAL DIAGRAM OF A TRANSFORMER, AND YOU WILL SEE NO SEXUAL ORGANS AT ALL! And don't tell me " It'z 4 CHilRnZ! My pissy single weak defence protecting my brainless crappy argument of 7 laws that only apply to real life will save me! They wouldn't show sex organs in a kids product!" because here's the thing: Why wouldn't they? If Transformers did have sex organs, they'd have at least verified it in the Ultimate guide by FLAT OUT STATING TRANSFORMERS CAN HAVE SEX. BUT THEY CAN'T! AND WHY CAN THEY NOT HAVE SEX?! THEY'RE F*CKING ROBOTS!

Actually he's not wrong, he's just not right either!

So, what you're saying is, he's more confused than an emo kid?

ThunderThruster wrote:

Damolisher wrote:Tramp, get the picture, OK? You are wrong. Your laws are wrong. I can't believe you don't know what the hell a machine is. LOOK AT ANY INTERNAL DIAGRAM OF A TRANSFORMER, AND YOU WILL SEE NO SEXUAL ORGANS AT ALL! And don't tell me " It'z 4 CHilRnZ! My pissy single weak defence protecting my brainless crappy argument of 7 laws that only apply to real life will save me! They wouldn't show sex organs in a kids product!" because here's the thing: Why wouldn't they? If Transformers did have sex organs, they'd have at least verified it in the Ultimate guide by FLAT OUT STATING TRANSFORMERS CAN HAVE SEX. BUT THEY CAN'T! AND WHY CAN THEY NOT HAVE SEX?! THEY'RE F*CKING ROBOTS!

Actually he's not wrong, he's just not right either!

I concurr.

....other than that, I got nothing to add...I'm tapped for tonight. later, all.

Damolisher wrote:So, what you're saying is, he's more confused than an emo kid?

no. just that some of what he says is right without question. and that some of it is speculation on what little information we've been given!

Nemesis Cyberplex wrote:

Tramp wrote:Nemesis, Those Transformers built from Protoforms all emerge as adults, not as children. The examples given are of children, they are physical children, small in size, with a child's proportions, not adult proportions. The ones from Victory in particular, are chibis. You do know what a chibi is don't you?
These are the Decepticons' families. Wives, sisters, and children. What purpose do you think wives are for, or where do you think children come from? If TFs were organic there would be no question. Organic or not makes no dofference. The intended implication from the series itself and the introduction of the Decepticon families is that these women and children are literally the families of these Decepticons; that the children were born from the unions of the decepticons with their wives. In other words, sexual reproduction. That is what they are showing. and as for wheelie, considering the lifespans of TransFormers, it would take a significant length of time for Wheelie to grow up; much longer than a human would. On top of that, we only see one or two years of his development; three when you add in Headmasters. Of course we would not see him physically grow. He isn't a rabbit or other animal which reaches adulthood in a mater of a few weeks or months. More than likely, it takes centuries to mature. Wheelie is literally a child.

All you are doing here is drawing conclusions from very limited info. As I mentioned, they do not delve into their origins, so you cannot assume anything. Maybe the "children" are smaller newly built protoforms that the dinoforce adopted...maybe not. & I assure you, if you ever walk down a street & exclaim that wives are solely for procreation & everything else is superficial, you will be b*tchslapped so quickly your head would spin.

They don't have to The implication is as clear as day. The sole purpose for courtship is to bring males and females together for reproduction. The purpose of marriage evolved over the millenia is for the raising of offspring by both parents because it provides the best chance for the successful raising and protection of said offspring especially given the length of time it takes for human children to reach adulthood. Genders, courtship, marriage (taking on a life-mate) serves only one purpose in a species for its survival, and that is reproduction. It serves no other evolutionary or biological purpose.

As for the movie and the Allspark, as has been stated by Robert Orci himself, the Allspark is not meant to be used directly to turn a non-living machine into TransFormer life. To do so results in a mindless killing machine. The Allspark is meant to be use to bring life to the planet and through the planet allow life to flourish. Prime intended to use the Allspark to revitalize the planet so that it could thrive once again and support life and the TransFormers could thrive as well. He never intended to use it on machines to make new TransFormers directly. That is not the purpose of the Allspark.

all irrelevant, as I was referring to Optimus's line reguarding that all of the Transformers, not Earth tech, were born from the Allspark.
nice try, though. well, not really.

Yes, so was I. Yes, all TransFormers were born of the Allspark, but not directly. Their sparks came from the Allspark through the planet, through the growth of life. They were not brought in front of the Allspark as lifeless husks and "imbued" with a spark directly. As Robert Orci said, that creates mindless monsters. Not just from Earth Tech, but from anything. The Allspark is not meant to be used directly on any machine. It is menat to bring life to the planet itself so that the planet can bring forth life and sustain it.

As for the criteria of life, no, it is not likely to change. Everything on that list is essential for the survival of a life form or the species. Of all of the criteria, the ability to procreate is of utmost importance because without it, the species cannot continue past the current generation. There is not a single example of a species which cannot reproduce becasue any that did would die out. That makes autopoietic reproduction absolutely essential.

Once again...fiction. I'm not going through this again, since you can't seem to accept that there is a difference between fiction & reality.

Fiction or reality, it does not matter Life cannot survive, much less thrive, without these criteria. This is especially true of autopoietic reproduction. without that, a species cannot continue. It will die out. a lfie form's only immortality is through its offspring by passing on its genes to the next generation. That canot be accomplished through creating copies in a factory. That requires autopoietic means. That requires procreation.

As for Arcee, Hot Rod, and Springer, no, that is not superficial. Arcee's Bio in both MtMtE #1, and her movie bio from the Marvel Universe handbook confirms this, and is clearly demonstrated in the comics. It has also been specifically stated by the voice actress who played Arcee that theire was romantic interest between Hot Rod and Arcee and also between Springer and Arcee. The love triangle plot is there and confirmed in both print and the cartoons and by the voice actress herself. There is no "nudge, nudge, wink, wink,"

superficial meaning aside from companionship, nothing will come of either one...besides, everybody knows that while Hot Rod & Springer was duking it out, Arcee was giving Daniel head.

How do you know that? You don't. We can't see any more than what they show because to do so would be innappropriate for children. The very fact that there is romantic affection, courtship, romantic rivalry. That is evidence of sexual reproduction. You don't need to see them in action. Arcee was the first female TransFormers seen in thousands of millenia if not longer. Yes, this is evidence of sexual reproduction and that genders are real among TransFormers.

Third, the only "concrete" evidence that you would likely accept is actually seeing them engaged in the act, and that wil never be sen because it isn't appropriate for children. Therfore you have to look at the evidence we do have. We have the fact that in the ancient past, Cybertron had both sexes, Arcee's Ultimate Guide bio confirms this stating her appearance is from the timelost past. Cybertron was invaded in the ancient past by the Quintessans at least twice, the first resulting in the transFormers being cut off from their creator, and the second resulting in the removal of every last female leaving the TransFormers an essentially genderless race.

Right there is no evidence, only drawing conclusions that are probably not there. You make my point perfectly here. Next[/quote] The are there. You simply choose to ignore them because you can't look past them being robotic. There is not other conclusion to be drawn.

What other purpose besides reproduction is there for genders, courtship, and marriage? There is none. The only purpose they serve is to facilitate reproduction. The pasages from the Ultimate Guide confirmn that female TransFormers were plentiful in Cybertron's past, but that they completely disappeared millions of years prior to the modern era. This is confirmed by all three passages from the guide I posted. They were all taken by the Quintessans, leaving an essentially genderless society. A society of all males reliant on artifical means to continue the species.
The "other potential" refered to in MtMtE #8 are means that do not require protoforms. Thus, they do not require the Matrix or Vector Sigma, both of which bring protoforms to life. Also, according to the Ultimate guide, the Matrix is not limitless. It's power cannot be used indefinately. That means that use of it would need to be done sparingly. That certainly does not sound like an optimal way to keep the species going.

what other purpose is there? companionship, public relations with other alien life forms....once again, something that if you walked down the street & mnetioned that women are simply for precreation, you would get slapped for, at least.

I never said women are solely for reproduction. I said genders are solely for sexual reproduction. IF we were asexual beings, we would not have genders at all, much less gender idenmtities. We would not have males or females. The only reason why we do have males and females is sexual reproduction. That is why we are divided into two genders, why we engage in courtship and marry. To further the species. That is the only purpose for genders, courtship, etc.

Being male or female is not a personal preference of the TransFormer, just as we do not choose what sex we are. They are born or created that way. It isn't choice.

I was referring to preference of the writers, not preference of the TFs themselves. TFs needing females for any reason is simply writer preference.

And I am referring to in universe. Life forms cannot choose their sex. Yes, it was the preferense of the writers, more accurately Hasbro. It was a marketing ploy, and it worked. However, once that decision was made, ther has to be an internal[b] reason for it. And the only [b]logical reason, given that TransFormers are living beings, is reproductive. Genders serve no other purpose in a life form or its survival.

The only reason why you can't accept the possibility of transFormers being capable of sexual reproduction is because they are mechanical life forms. Once again, so what!. They are still living beings. There is no real reason why they shouldn't be capable of it. their being mechanical is not a reason. It is actually, the ultimate in human huberous to assume that only organic life could possibly reproduce through natural means such as sexual reproduction.

you're right, there is no real reason why they couldn't. But on the contrary, there is also no real reason why they should be capable of it either. But using your own argument, I would say it would be human hubris to assume that life is only possible through the same reproduction processes organic life is capable of, specifically sexual reproduction.[/quote]
Yes, there is a logical reason why they should be capable of it. First, they are life forms. Second, they are life forms divided into two distinct sexes—male and female. Why do life forms have sexes? Reproduction. That is why they have genders, and gneders evolved for reproduction. That is the only purpose for a life form to be male or female. It is so that it can come together with a member of the opposite gender and make babies. Courtship is meant to draw a male and female together so they can mate and make babies. Marriage evolved so that the male and female cuould better raise those children. IF you think logically from the standpoint of TransFormers being life forms instead of "just" robots, particularly life forms divided by gender, it makes perfect sense that they would be sexual beings capable of reproduction through sexual means. IF TransFormers were truely asexual, they would not have either male or female appearances. They would not refer to themselves or others of theoir kind as "he" or "she". They would have absolutely no concept of gender. The very fact that they do have a concept of gender, clearly evident in their gender-based bias towards Arcee, is proof enough of this. They are sexual beings, but some time in their past, all of the females were taken by the Quintessans forcing them into an essentially genderless existence until Arcee, and later, other lost Femmes, came back to Cybertron. The fact that they are mechanical in composition has no bearing. It is irrelevant. They are living beings divided by sex. Sexes only serve a reproductive purpose in life. That is what is relevant.