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Cobotron wrote:Did D.C. Fontana write on Beast Machines too, or just Beast Wars?
Can't remember off the top of my head without pulling up some episodes.

She wrote just a single Beast Wars episode, "Crossing the Rubicon".

OK thanks guys! So she was kind of a guest writter.

And yes O, Gene was known for some sub-moral behaviors.

I agree with Sabre that BW and BM are the closest we've gotten to anything like what is being discussed here. Probably why It's IMO the best TF toon we've ever gotten and to this day they only two series that can hold my attention.

The themes tackled in there were heavy and heady, and I loved it. But that's probably because I was an adult.

I know I've shared this opinion before, but since we are on the subject, I just wanted to talk about TF Prime. I know to some it was a disappointment, but honestly I truly loved this series, even more than Beast Wars (prepares to be destroyed). BW still is a great show, there's no doubt, but when I watch some of the season 1 episodes now, after 20 years, they don't hold up quite as well, -Seasons 2 & 3 are still great, but S1 has fallen, just a notch IMHO.

But TF Prime, man... what a great show. We get the triumphant return of Frank Welker as Megatron, and Peter Cullen as Optimus, both sounding even better than they did 30 years earlier. A lot of people have contention with Primes dialogue in the series, but I think its great, I could listen to it all day, I guess its just what suits me. A strong supporting cast with great voice talent such as Steve Blum, Kevin Michael Richardson, Jeffrey Combs, and Sumalee Montano just to name a few.

Now does TF Prime tackle "mature" themes...not necessarily based on what we've discussed so far, however I would argue, if that were not the case, then why did Hasbro make the decision to change the format of the show? "lighten" it up, and rebrand it as RiD15? --Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy RiD15, but more the way an adult would have probably enjoyed the original series back in 1984. My son loves it, but I understand its more for him than me.

TF Prime was a series that resonated with me as an Adult, not because it was dark or gritty, but I'd more argue, - because it Wasn't dumb, or silly. That's not to say there wasn't comedy, every TF show has to have some levity. For the first time you had humans (Jack and Raph), that were not only "not annoying", but were actually likable. I can honestly say I enjoyed those characters. Miko well... she wasn't for me, but I know a lot of people enjoyed her, especially my daughter, and the relationship between her and Bulkhead was well written throughout the series, as was the connections between all the humans and their respective "guardians". I felt this was really an answer to the question I'd been asking all along - what if the Original Series had been given an "update" so adults could enjoy it on their own level, as well as children.

All that being said however, I understand these don't come around very often. The original Series will always hold a special place with me, and I'll always defend it, but it my eyes, it is the 3rd best TF animated series to date. Beast wars is second. It got me to overcome my initial hatred in 1996 of a Transformers line that was initially NOT vehicles, but was something complete different, but all credit for that goes to the writers, VA's and all series developers over at mainframe for creating a new Transformers mythos that in time I could warm up to, and even though eventually it was brought into the original Series timeline, for me that only increased it's likability factor. Also, unlike the original series it was given a proper ending, so I give it major kudos all around, and it still remains my 2nd favorite TF animated series of all time. Then we get to TF Prime, which is the first, for the reasons I stated above.

It's not to say I find zero enjoyment from other TF series, I do. In fact here are my own rankings overall:


Critically (based on my opinion of story writing and content)

1. Prime
2. Beast Wars
3. The Transformers
4. Animated
5. Rescue Bots
6. Beast Machines
7. RiD2015
8. Car Robots/ R.I.D.
9. Masterforce
10. Victory/Zone
11. Headmasters
12. Beast Wars II
13. Beast Wars Neo
14. Cybertron
15. Energon
16. Armada

Personally (ranked based purely on enjoyment and the desire for repeated viewings)

1. The Transformers
2. Prime
3. Beast Wars
4. Headmasters
5. Masterforce
6. Victory/Zone
7. Car Robots/ R.I.D.
8. Beast Wars II
9. RiD2015
10. Rescue Bots
11. Animated
12. Energon
13. Beast Machines
14. Beast Wars Neo
15. Cybertron
16. Armada

So by my estimates (and I could be wrong), it will be at least another decade or so before another TF animated series comes along that really feels as though it was made for me. Until then, I'll just see what comes along and enjoy the ride as best I can.

If I were to be completely honest, I'd say Rescue Bots is probably the most mature (not "adult" but "mature" in the most denotative sense of the word) TF cartoon we've ever had in recent years.

Sure, it doesn't tackle as much controversial topics and is kid-friendly, but man is it full of depth and what subjects it does handle have been thought-provoking. But most importantly, it treats its audience, of all ages, with the respect and candor we deserve, about as much as Batman: The Animated Series did.

I've spoken numerous times about the three-parter that introduced Blurr and Salvage and how those episodes not only took the age-old relationship between the "mentoring team leader" and "the rambunctious youth who has trouble following rules" in new directions never before explored in a TF cartoon, but which also felt like a narrative deconstruction of the traditional leader-youth dynamic by turning it on its head to present the most realistic version of that relationship between flawed leader who does have actual limits and stubborn youth who just couldn't learn his lesson overnight no matter what. It was a pretty bold move on that three-parter's part, especially considering how Rescue Bots was supposed to be a show for preschoolers. It's like the writing staff just don't know how to write towards that audience and instead couldn't help but write towards a smarter demographic.

But now, that three-parter is no longer the highest point in that show for me. No, that honor now has to go to a certain Season 4 episode simply titled "Family Business", in which it started off with just a simple premise, with Cody trying to determine which career path he will pursue when he becomes old enough to officially start training as a rescue worker. But from out of that simplicity came a deeper exploration of what it truly means to serve and protect the public as a civil servant, even going as far as showing that, yes, these people do risk their lives every day that they're out there in the line of duty. Rescue work is no picnic and can be very dangerous. And they don't even sugarcoat this point either. The episode actually went as far as to put Chief Burns in such a perilous situation that both the characters and, honestly, the audience wondered if he was going to make it out okay.

In the episode, there was a construction site having work done not too far from an apartment building. At one point, an explosion from broken gas mains at the site caused severe damage to the apartment building. The team gets everyone out to safety and puts up the residents at the firehouse until their home can be repaired. When the team goes back to the damaged building to retrieve some of the residents' more important belongings, the Bots hold up the building while Chief and Dani enter it. But as Chief comes back out, part of the building collapses on top of him and he's buried in debris. At first, he seems to be okay once he's dug out, but then he himself collapses and fall unconscious, in one of the most dire scenes in the entire series that, no holds back, emphasizes Chief's mortality as a human being, written in such a way that made it look like this could really have been the end for him.

The very next scene is even of the rest of the team waiting at the hospital to hear back from the doctor about Chief's condition, complete with realistic frustration and worry from each of them. Of course, the show didn't kill him off, having him emerge from the ER in a wheelchair pushed by the doctor, but the writing sure pulled no punches in showing how severe this situation was and just how intense the life of a first responder can be and is in real life.

And that episode's ending, man, got me right here. With all the townspeople (who had earlier in the episode given Chief so much grief for their irateness towards the construction) gathered outside to witness Chief's release from the hospital since they were all concerned for him too. It was beautiful. Honestly one of, if not the, only times a TF cartoon has ever moved me nearly to tears of joy.

Someone mentioned an OVA style release earlier and I think that's the route folks are thinking of here. You make a longer form series and you end up with stuff like Masterforce that's great overall but really meanders its way to getting there. I'm not sure that would work for Transformers right now.

Put another way: I, too, would love to see a Last Stand of the Wreckers OVA.

ScottyP wrote:Someone mentioned an OVA style release earlier and I think that's the route folks are thinking of here. You make a longer form series and you end up with stuff like Masterforce that's great overall but really meanders its way to getting there. I'm not sure that would work for Transformers right now.

Put another way: I, too, would love to see a Last Stand of the Wreckers OVA.

That style would probably work well under Trigger's care.

ScottyP wrote:Put another way: I, too, would love to see a Last Stand of the Wreckers OVA.

I've mentioned this before as well. WB/DC did really well for a long time. Releasing 3 direct-to-DVD films per year (running about 70 minuets each) based on various different comic events and Graphic Novels. Some older, some new.

Think of it...You could then have a stand alone "movie", essentially about every 4 months based on just about anything...

Original Series, (Marvel Comic or animation), G2, Beast, Wars/Beast Machines (though these stories were completed, you could tell some mid-series event), anything from Dreamwave or IDW, Rid, Animated, Japanese series etc..., etc... the sky is the limit.

I mean 3 per-year may be asking for a lot, but even one film per year would be great. Predacons Rising was a great film IMHO, though it served a purpose as an addendum to TF Prime, it shows Hasbro has the budget for this type of things, and desire to produce them. I mean I just looked up on Wikipedia andHasbro has been releasing My Little Pony special movies at the rate of about 1 per year for the past 4 years. Now I get they are all based on the most current incarnation, but Transformers has such a rich 30+ year history, digging into it for one animated film per year I think would go a long way towards satisfying fans such as myself who are looking for something more than the "standard" animated series, to sell toys, we get each year.

I kinda get the feeling that Hasbro might see the Machinima Transformers mini-series as already being Transformers's answer to DC's direct-to-DVD animated films.

It's just so unfortunate that the first one, Combiner Wars, turned out to be so terrible, in spite of all the hype it got from its production staff boldly declaring it to be something like "the Game of Thrones of animation".

Sabrblade wrote:I kinda get the feeling that Hasbro might see the Machinima Transformers mini-series as already being Transformers's answer to DC's direct-to-DVD animated films.

I've had that same sinking feeling at times as well. I know at Bot-Con they used to have panels, and by the time Has-Con rolls around in September I assume TR will be fully in production, or might even be released. If there are any Hasbro panels, someone has to have the fortitude hopefully to stand up and tell them that Machiminas series was awful, and they need to go a different direction.

I remember being at BC in 2000 in Fort Wayne Indiana when some fan had the stones to tell former BW voice actors Venus Terzo, Alec Willows (who wasn't part of the show obviously), and Ian Corlett that Beast Machines Sucked to a thunderous applause. Of course the Voice Actors were not to blame, but basically that fan wanted to know if the actors felt "betrayed" in that such a great series (BW) had such an awful follow up. As a result, Bob Skir cancelled his appearance at the next convention in which he was invited to heh...

Its obvious that for some reason Hasbro is either oblivious of the negativity towards Machimina's CW, or in compete denial. I know the fandom doesn't get access to them often, but sometimes somebody just has to tell them face-to-face. Unfortunately I cant get across the country to do it myself, but I hope somebody does.

o.supreme wrote:Its obvious that for some reason Hasbro is either oblivious of the negativity towards Machimina's CW, or in compete denial. I know the fandom doesn't get access to them often, but sometimes somebody just has to tell them face-to-face. Unfortunately I cant get across the country to do it myself, but I hope somebody does.

Or Hasbro's only paying attention to the blind ignorant praise the CW series got from people on Facebook and YouTube, and sees the criticisms as just the fandom being the fandom.

Eugh.

On the other end of the "maturity" scale, how about we get Sakamoto-senpai to write for a light and fluffy anime short series? No great war, no functionism, no robot gore, no grimdark, just cute robots doing cute things with lots of continuity meta-references everywhere.

Black Hat wrote:On the other end of the "maturity" scale, how about we get Sakamoto-senpai to write for a light and fluffy anime short series? No great war, no functionism, no robot gore, no grimdark, just cute robots doing cute things with lots of continuity meta-references everywhere.

Basically the Legends manga in anime form?

With or without the lewdness, though?

Sabrblade wrote:

Black Hat wrote:On the other end of the "maturity" scale, how about we get Sakamoto-senpai to write for a light and fluffy anime short series? No great war, no functionism, no robot gore, no grimdark, just cute robots doing cute things with lots of continuity meta-references everywhere.

Basically the Legends manga in anime form?

With or without the lewdness, though?

Yes, basically. And with, of course, even if only to make certain portions of the fandom implode with rage.

never read the "Legends" manga, but admittedly I was all on board Marvel's Super Hero Squad. Though it was very light in tone, the jokes were really well written, and amazingly they were able to tell the story of the Infinity Gauntlet in the 2nd season much better than Disney's current Avengers did. Of course SHS was basically the last thing made before the Disney Purchase, so seeing the X-Men/F4 and all other marvel heroes together was not something you'll likely see again soon in animation (but it did irritate me a bit that they could include Spider-Man in all non-animated merchandise, just not on the show itself...)

If they did a TF version of SHS (which admittedly would have a family friendly tone)...If it was well written and had tons of in-jokes for fans as SHS, I'd be happy to watch that, though I would still like a more serious well-written animated movie from time to time as well.