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Is anyone else scared?

Discuss anything and everything related to the Transformers Live Action Films franchise, which are directed by Michael Bay. Join us to discuss the movies and stuff up to date with news for the 2017 release of Transformers 5. Check out our Live Action Film section here.

Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Capt.Failure » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:06 am

Shadowman wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:Sorry to double post but I figure I'd point this out. Quoting the article.

When the U.S.S. Theodore Roosevelt is sunk by Decepticon transition forms, its hull number of 71 can be seen on the bridge island. However, when it sinks, a hull number of 74 can clearly be seen on the bow of the landing deck. CVN-74 belongs to the U.S.S. John C. Stennis, a carrier that shows up later in the film and was also the carrier used for filming.


That's not a plot hole either, that is exactly what I said it was. The same ship filling the role of multiple sets on the film. Again, aircraft carriers aren't cheap to rent out for a film.


Except when it was sinking it was a CGI model, not an actual ship. So someone intentionally put the hull number of the Stennis on the side of it.

EDIT: Here's a question that's been bugging me since the movie was released: Why would the US military call the Jordanian military to come across Israel and into Egypt?

And there's also Simmons saying the closest Seeker is in Washington, even though Wheelie wasn't pointing at Washington. That's like showing a picture of California and calling it Michigan.


People can make mistakes. That does not make it the same ship. In the movie the sinking ship is not called the John C. Stennis, it is called the Theodore Roosevelt. Therefor it is not the John C. Stennis. Again, not a plot hole.

I didn't see the laser not pointing to Washington. Will have to watch that scene again.

In another thread we had a huge debate about the movie supposedly being antisemetic because they didn't call Israel for help. It's a bullcrap hypothesis to begin with. So what if they didn't mention Israel, it's not worth starting another pointless debate about at this point. A better question is why they didn't call Egypt, who's territory the battle was taking place on. :-?

Note on the Israel matter: Michael Bay's Jewish. The writers are known Democrats. Steven Spielberg is Jewish. That pretty much destroys the antisemetism debate right there.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Shadowman » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:40 am

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Capt.Failure wrote:People can make mistakes. That does not make it the same ship. In the movie the sinking ship is not called the John C. Stennis, it is called the Theodore Roosevelt. Therefor it is not the John C. Stennis. Again, not a plot hole.


No, that makes it a different ship with the same hull number.

Capt.Failure wrote:I didn't see the laser not pointing to Washington. Will have to watch that scene again.


Let me save you some time, here's a screen cap.

Capt.Failure wrote:In another thread we had a huge debate about the movie supposedly being antisemetic because they didn't call Israel for help. It's a bullcrap hypothesis to begin with. So what if they didn't mention Israel, it's not worth starting another pointless debate about at this point. A better question is why they didn't call Egypt, who's territory the battle was taking place on. :-?

Note on the Israel matter: Michael Bay's Jewish. The writers are known Democrats. Steven Spielberg is Jewish. That pretty much destroys the antisemetism debate right there.


Wow, dude, that is so not what I was talking about. Well, except for the part about not calling the Egyptian Military. My point was, why did they call one nation's military into another nation, with the trip taking them through a third nation's airspace. I never heard anything about antisemitism in ROTF before and I was in the trenches since '07.

(And um...how does being Democrat mean one is incapable of antisemitism?)
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Capt.Failure » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:19 am

Shadowman wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:People can make mistakes. That does not make it the same ship. In the movie the sinking ship is not called the John C. Stennis, it is called the Theodore Roosevelt. Therefor it is not the John C. Stennis. Again, not a plot hole.


No, that makes it a different ship with the same hull number.

Capt.Failure wrote:I didn't see the laser not pointing to Washington. Will have to watch that scene again.


Let me save you some time, here's a screen cap.

Capt.Failure wrote:In another thread we had a huge debate about the movie supposedly being antisemetic because they didn't call Israel for help. It's a bullcrap hypothesis to begin with. So what if they didn't mention Israel, it's not worth starting another pointless debate about at this point. A better question is why they didn't call Egypt, who's territory the battle was taking place on. :-?

Note on the Israel matter: Michael Bay's Jewish. The writers are known Democrats. Steven Spielberg is Jewish. That pretty much destroys the antisemetism debate right there.


Wow, dude, that is so not what I was talking about. Well, except for the part about not calling the Egyptian Military. My point was, why did they call one nation's military into another nation, with the trip taking them through a third nation's airspace. I never heard anything about antisemitism in ROTF before and I was in the trenches since '07.

(And um...how does being Democrat mean one is incapable of antisemitism?)


Ah, you were right about the laser pointer. But I'm willing to let it slide. And you gotta admit, mistake or not in terms of story it is a different ship that went down.

The antisemetism thing came up in a debate about the Twins, supposed racism, political correctness gone mad, and other such things. After that debate I was kind of assuming you were coming from that angle but I was wrong. Again like the laser pointer I'm willing to let it slide, a minor error at worst that doesn't impact the story.

The question about their political alignment I won't answer here. I'll send a PM.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby craggy » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:28 pm

I can't win this argument...look over there: a UFO!
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Chaoslock » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:08 pm

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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Capt.Failure » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:49 pm



We just went over them, read back up the thread a few pages. Besides, minor technical and geographical errors are so common in films you can't count them. Only the discussed plot points matter, and we've come to the conclusion that aside from Wheelie's dissapearence, they don't. Your post was pointless.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Shadowman » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:37 pm

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Capt.Failure wrote:


We just went over them, read back up the thread a few pages. Besides, minor technical and geographical errors are so common in films you can't count them. Only the discussed plot points matter, and we've come to the conclusion that aside from Wheelie's dissapearence, they don't. Your post was pointless.


And why shouldn't it count? Just because other movies are guilty of it doesn't make it okay. I mean they ignore the existence an entire freaking country for no reason! That's not a minor error, that's "You really need to look at a globe sometime."
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Capt.Failure » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:01 pm

Shadowman wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:


We just went over them, read back up the thread a few pages. Besides, minor technical and geographical errors are so common in films you can't count them. Only the discussed plot points matter, and we've come to the conclusion that aside from Wheelie's dissapearence, they don't. Your post was pointless.


And why shouldn't it count? Just because other movies are guilty of it doesn't make it okay. I mean they ignore the existence an entire freaking country for no reason! That's not a minor error, that's "You really need to look at a globe sometime."


The entire plot of Citizen Kane falls apart a few seconds in because nobody was in the room with him when he said "Rosebud." Yet that's acceptable.

The entire Lord of the Rings trilogy could have been ended in a few hours if they'd flown the Ring to Mordor via those giant eagles. Even fans of the novels agree that's a gigantic plot hole. Yet that's acceptable

In 2001 a trained astronaut went out in a space pod without a helmet, putting him in a life or death situation when he had to blow the hatch on his pod to reenter the ship. No trained astronaut would do something as stupid as not fully suit up for a spacewalk, no matter how dire the situation. Yet that's acceptable.

Here's my question. Why are these ok, but a geographical error in this film is such a massive sin? When something as simple and common as misreading a map becomes your only remaining arguement, then you've lost. Period.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Shadowman » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:54 pm

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Capt.Failure wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:


We just went over them, read back up the thread a few pages. Besides, minor technical and geographical errors are so common in films you can't count them. Only the discussed plot points matter, and we've come to the conclusion that aside from Wheelie's dissapearence, they don't. Your post was pointless.


And why shouldn't it count? Just because other movies are guilty of it doesn't make it okay. I mean they ignore the existence an entire freaking country for no reason! That's not a minor error, that's "You really need to look at a globe sometime."


The entire plot of Citizen Kane falls apart a few seconds in because nobody was in the room with him when he said "Rosebud." Yet that's acceptable.

The entire Lord of the Rings trilogy could have been ended in a few hours if they'd flown the Ring to Mordor via those giant eagles. Even fans of the novels agree that's a gigantic plot hole. Yet that's acceptable

In 2001 a trained astronaut went out in a space pod without a helmet, putting him in a life or death situation when he had to blow the hatch on his pod to reenter the ship. No trained astronaut would do something as stupid as not fully suit up for a spacewalk, no matter how dire the situation. Yet that's acceptable.

Here's my question. Why are these ok, but a geographical error in this film is such a massive sin? When something as simple and common as misreading a map becomes your only remaining arguement, then you've lost. Period.


The difference is, those movies had all of one mistake per movie. ROTF just packs in tons of mind-boggling errors.

While we're at it, the reason they didn't take the Eagles is because they were constantly being tracked and the Nazgul already had their own flying mounts. It's like taking a helicopter to an enemy base while the enemy in question has a squadron of F-22s.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Capt.Failure » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:11 pm

Shadowman wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:


We just went over them, read back up the thread a few pages. Besides, minor technical and geographical errors are so common in films you can't count them. Only the discussed plot points matter, and we've come to the conclusion that aside from Wheelie's dissapearence, they don't. Your post was pointless.


And why shouldn't it count? Just because other movies are guilty of it doesn't make it okay. I mean they ignore the existence an entire freaking country for no reason! That's not a minor error, that's "You really need to look at a globe sometime."


The entire plot of Citizen Kane falls apart a few seconds in because nobody was in the room with him when he said "Rosebud." Yet that's acceptable.

The entire Lord of the Rings trilogy could have been ended in a few hours if they'd flown the Ring to Mordor via those giant eagles. Even fans of the novels agree that's a gigantic plot hole. Yet that's acceptable

In 2001 a trained astronaut went out in a space pod without a helmet, putting him in a life or death situation when he had to blow the hatch on his pod to reenter the ship. No trained astronaut would do something as stupid as not fully suit up for a spacewalk, no matter how dire the situation. Yet that's acceptable.

Here's my question. Why are these ok, but a geographical error in this film is such a massive sin? When something as simple and common as misreading a map becomes your only remaining arguement, then you've lost. Period.


The difference is, those movies had all of one mistake per movie. ROTF just packs in tons of mind-boggling errors.

While we're at it, the reason they didn't take the Eagles is because they were constantly being tracked and the Nazgul already had their own flying mounts. It's like taking a helicopter to an enemy base while the enemy in question has a squadron of F-22s.


The problem with the errors is that all the ones that matter have been deconstructed with a simple process called observation and application of logical thought. I find it funny this film comes under accusations of only being enjoyed by stupid, ADD addled masses yet critics of it fail to notice so much of the film that they just cast blanket accusations of "plot hole" all over it and call it a day.

Also, your rebuttal to the eagles plot hole in LotR is such bullcrap. Like there wasn't a risk of Nazgul on foot? If anything on foot it was a greater risk because the eagles could avoid them with fancy flying and they'd still get to Mordor in no time flat. The Fellowship plan relied on unreliable companions who the Ring could tempt, a far longer, more dangerous path through terrain of kingdoms who could not be trusted ending in an on foot journey through Mordor itself. This over flying the Ring there on eagles who are able to fight off the Nazgul's fel beast mounts in single combat. And to top it all off...the demigod in their group did nothing with those awesome magic powers until the Balrog showed up. Brilliant strategy right there.

And THAT, my friend, is a plot hole. It fails to hold up under scrutiny, unlike everything (bar Wheelie) listed in RotF. Again, you're back to simple geographical and technical flaws, which are not plot holes. Checkmate.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Shadowman » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:31 pm

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Capt.Failure wrote:The problem with the errors is that all the ones that matter have been deconstructed with a simple process called observation and application of logical thought. I find it funny this film comes under accusations of only being enjoyed by stupid, ADD addled masses yet critics of it fail to notice so much of the film that they just cast blanket accusations of "plot hole" all over it and call it a day.


That doesn't actually excuse all of the errors in this movie.

Capt.Failure wrote:Also, your rebuttal to the eagles plot hole in LotR is such bullcrap. Like there wasn't a risk of Nazgul on foot? If anything on foot it was a greater risk because the eagles could avoid them with fancy flying and they'd still get to Mordor in no time flat. The Fellowship plan relied on unreliable companions who the Ring could tempt, a far longer, more dangerous path through terrain of kingdoms who could not be trusted ending in an on foot journey through Mordor itself. This over flying the Ring there on eagles who are able to fight off the Nazgul's fel beast mounts in single combat. And to top it all off...the demigod in their group did nothing with those awesome magic powers until the Balrog showed up. Brilliant strategy right there.


Except on foot they can find hiding places. Which they actually do in several scenes. And the only reason they got the ring to Mount Doom is by sending a massive army to distract Sauron.

As for Gandalf's magic, there's nothing to suggest it would be any good against an army of orcs, or that it was any good at all. You notice how all he was able to do was block the Balrog's attacks? Gandalf had no real skill in combat until he was promoted to White Wizard.

Capt.Failure wrote:Checkmate.


You know what I really, really hate? When people say things like this, as if they've "won" an argument on the internet. It doesn't mean you won, it just makes you look arrogant.

Fun extension on the Wheelie-Laser Error: Wheelie points at New Jersey, and they say it's in Washington. We covered that. Then they mention being in the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum, despite clearly being at the Udvar-Hazy Center. While that IS an extension of the National Air and Space Museum...it's also in Virginia. And as we've explained before, for some reason it's also right next to the Boneyard in Arizona.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Tekka » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:33 pm

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It actually is a plot hole that Sam and the Autobots manage to traverse Jordan, Israel, and Egypt in the space of mere minutes because nobody in a position of authority on the film has given an explanation as to why something that would normally be impossible is suddenly possible. It could also be construed as a plot hole, that a military force is able to violate the sovereign airspace of another country since there is no explanation provided for it despite there being a potential reason behind the scenes... But again, we're not given it.

A lot of the technical flaws such as Wheelie appearing and disappearing, the number on the sinking carrier, the laser pointers on the map, etc, can be written off as bloopers. That stuff happens all the time in hundreds of productions, that still doesn't change the fact that there are flaws in the plot as outlined above. All it takes is an in universe explanation to clear those things up and they're effectively erased, but there are no explanations given so they remain flaws. It's not a matter of it being a big or small deal, it simply is what it is.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby SlyTF1 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:44 pm

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Tekka wrote:It actually is a plot hole that Sam and the Autobots manage to traverse Jordan, Israel, and Egypt in the space of mere minutes because nobody in a position of authority on the film has given an explanation as to why something that would normally be impossible is suddenly possible. It could also be construed as a plot hole, that a military force is able to violate the sovereign airspace of another country since there is no explanation provided for it despite there being a potential reason behind the scenes... But again, we're not given it.


I'm pretty sure it's obvious that the movie cut those scenes out. Why would you want to see cars driving for days on a road? They scaled the time down.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Tekka » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:46 pm

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SlyTF1 wrote:
Tekka wrote:It actually is a plot hole that Sam and the Autobots manage to traverse Jordan, Israel, and Egypt in the space of mere minutes because nobody in a position of authority on the film has given an explanation as to why something that would normally be impossible is suddenly possible. It could also be construed as a plot hole, that a military force is able to violate the sovereign airspace of another country since there is no explanation provided for it despite there being a potential reason behind the scenes... But again, we're not given it.


I'm pretty sure it's obvious that the movie cut those scenes out. Why would you want to see cars driving for days on a road? They scaled the time down.

They were in the middle of a battle... Prime had just been airlifted into Cairo... How many days do you think they had to drive there?
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Starscream GaGa » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:55 pm

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Capt.Failure wrote:The problem with the errors is that all the ones that matter have been deconstructed with a simple process called observation and application of logical thought. I find it funny this film comes under accusations of only being enjoyed by stupid, ADD addled masses yet critics of it fail to notice so much of the film that they just cast blanket accusations of "plot hole" all over it and call it a day.

Also, your rebuttal to the eagles plot hole in LotR is such bullcrap. Like there wasn't a risk of Nazgul on foot? If anything on foot it was a greater risk because the eagles could avoid them with fancy flying and they'd still get to Mordor in no time flat. The Fellowship plan relied on unreliable companions who the Ring could tempt, a far longer, more dangerous path through terrain of kingdoms who could not be trusted ending in an on foot journey through Mordor itself. This over flying the Ring there on eagles who are able to fight off the Nazgul's fel beast mounts in single combat. And to top it all off...the demigod in their group did nothing with those awesome magic powers until the Balrog showed up. Brilliant strategy right there.

And THAT, my friend, is a plot hole. It fails to hold up under scrutiny, unlike everything (bar Wheelie) listed in RotF. Again, you're back to simple geographical and technical flaws, which are not plot holes. Checkmate.


Oh my GOD.

OK, for starters, there was a maid in the room at the beginning of Citizen Kane. "Checkmate".

Second, the eagle crap IS ridiculous. How the frack were the eagles supposed to pick up the ring from the Shire and fly it all the way over to Mordor undetected when Sauron had an army of DINOSAURS on there side? Furthermore, the eagles wouldn't have been able to carry a ringbearer as all creatures were subject to its seduction.

Also, what could Gandalf's magic do, exactly? At no point in either the books or movies was he capable of doing much more than simple teleportation and big flashes.


Seriously, ALL youre arguements fall apart when you compare crap like ROTF to CITIZEN KANE. THAT is "Checkmate".

SlyTF1 wrote:
Tekka wrote:It actually is a plot hole that Sam and the Autobots manage to traverse Jordan, Israel, and Egypt in the space of mere minutes because nobody in a position of authority on the film has given an explanation as to why something that would normally be impossible is suddenly possible. It could also be construed as a plot hole, that a military force is able to violate the sovereign airspace of another country since there is no explanation provided for it despite there being a potential reason behind the scenes... But again, we're not given it.


I'm pretty sure it's obvious that the movie cut those scenes out. Why would you want to see cars driving for days on a road? They scaled the time down.


And what? The Decepticons and NEST just sat around doing nothing during these days?
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Capt.Failure » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:07 pm

Shadowman wrote:That doesn't actually excuse all of the errors in this movie.


When you can openly say it doesn't excuse the numerous errors in other films, which you haven't, then anything after that statement in your post will be worth reading. Blinding yourself to the flaws in other films for the sake of an arguement against another isn't working out for your point of view.

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When you actually contribute something to his topic instead of mocking people or screaming like an untrained monkey I'll maybe consider reading something you post. Until then go sit in a corner, adults are talking.

Edit: Yes Shadowman, I'm aware there are flaws in RotF. That's not my point. My point is refusal to aknowledge that other films are equally flawed, even what many consider the best films ever made. It's only when a film draws negative criticism that these minor flaws are cared about.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Tekka » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:20 pm

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Things are getting a bit lost here I think. The original intent was to establish that there actually were plot holes in ROTF, how the heck did we get onto the finer points of the LOTR plot? XP
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Capt.Failure » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:25 pm

Tekka wrote:Things are getting a bit lost here I think. The original intent was to establish that there actually were plot holes in ROTF, how the heck did we get onto the finer points of the LOTR plot? XP


My point in that was the plot hole about the eagles is "acceptable" but when the incorrect timescale of a trip between Jordan and the Pyramids isn't, it's suddenly an unforgivable mistake and clearly a sign of how crappy the film is. I'm saying perspective on RotF's actual flaws (the geography errors, out of place humor) are blown out of proportion in the grand scheme of the film.

That and tangents will do such to a conversation with enough time. :P
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Shadowman » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:31 pm

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Capt.Failure wrote:
Shadowman wrote:That doesn't actually excuse all of the errors in this movie.


When you can openly say it doesn't excuse the numerous errors in other films, which you haven't, then anything after that statement in your post will be worth reading. Blinding yourself to the flaws in other films for the sake of an arguement against another isn't working out for your point of view.


Because other films don't suffer from it to the same degree as ROTF.

Capt.Failure wrote:
Starscream GaGa wrote:blah blah blah blah


When you actually contribute something to his topic instead of mocking people or screaming like an untrained monkey I'll maybe consider reading something you post. Until then go sit in a corner, adults are talking.


That's about the most hypocritical thing in this entire thread.

Capt.Failure wrote:Edit: Yes Shadowman, I'm aware there are flaws in RotF. That's not my point. My point is refusal to aknowledge that other films are equally flawed, even what many consider the best films ever made. It's only when a film draws negative criticism that these minor flaws are cared about.


Except all the "flaws" you pointed out about other movies were addressed and corrected. And there wasn't more than one or two per movie.

Tekka wrote:Things are getting a bit lost here I think. The original intent was to establish that there actually were plot holes in ROTF, how the heck did we get onto the finer points of the LOTR plot? XP


Because he's attempting to compare minor flaws in great movies to the major flaws in ROTF.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Tekka » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:31 pm

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Capt.Failure wrote:
Tekka wrote:Things are getting a bit lost here I think. The original intent was to establish that there actually were plot holes in ROTF, how the heck did we get onto the finer points of the LOTR plot? XP


My point in that was the plot hole about the eagles is "acceptable" but when the incorrect timescale of a trip between Jordan and the Pyramids isn't, it's suddenly an unforgivable mistake and clearly a sign of how crappy the film is. I'm saying perspective on RotF's actual flaws (the geography errors, out of place humor) are blown out of proportion in the grand scheme of the film.

That and tangents will do such to a conversation with enough time. :P


I see what you mean. But I'm honestly of the same frame of mind as you, it's not a big deal at all to me because I'm used to my fiction getting a bit confused sometimes. The plot flaws don't even factor into my issues with the movie, for me it's all about the characterization of the 'bots that drives me up the wall.

I think... Sometimes when an argument really gets heated people will grab onto any point they can to try and turn the situation to their advantage. The best thing to do is not take it personally and let the bile that goes along with those opinions slide right by you. Just concentrate on the facts and let the opinions pass you by. In the end, yours is the only one you should be worried about, right?
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Burn » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:36 pm

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Tekka wrote:In the end, yours is the only one you should be worried about, right?


But people NEED to know what I think! The NEED to think like me as they CLEARLY can't think for themselves if they're not thinking like me!
(That's sarcasm for those who are too stoopid to get it)
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Starscream GaGa » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:38 pm

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Capt.Failure wrote:
When you actually contribute something to his topic instead of mocking people or screaming like an untrained monkey I'll maybe consider reading something you post. Until then go sit in a corner, adults are talking.

Wait, you make an argument, I tell you why what you said is wrong and instead of revising your argument or saying why my argument is wrong, you attempt to insult me? And don't try to out bitch me, you will lose.

Seriously kid, you're frustrating. Lose an argument gracefully, why don't you?
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Evil_the_Nub » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:58 pm

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Tekka wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:
Tekka wrote:Things are getting a bit lost here I think. The original intent was to establish that there actually were plot holes in ROTF, how the heck did we get onto the finer points of the LOTR plot? XP


My point in that was the plot hole about the eagles is "acceptable" but when the incorrect timescale of a trip between Jordan and the Pyramids isn't, it's suddenly an unforgivable mistake and clearly a sign of how crappy the film is. I'm saying perspective on RotF's actual flaws (the geography errors, out of place humor) are blown out of proportion in the grand scheme of the film.

That and tangents will do such to a conversation with enough time. :P


I see what you mean. But I'm honestly of the same frame of mind as you, it's not a big deal at all to me because I'm used to my fiction getting a bit confused sometimes. The plot flaws don't even factor into my issues with the movie, for me it's all about the characterization of the 'bots that drives me up the wall.

I think... Sometimes when an argument really gets heated people will grab onto any point they can to try and turn the situation to their advantage. The best thing to do is not take it personally and let the bile that goes along with those opinions slide right by you. Just concentrate on the facts and let the opinions pass you by. In the end, yours is the only one you should be worried about, right?

Yeah I think people are getting way too worked up over it. Yes RotF had a few geographical errors, but they aren't a big deal. How many movies take place in fictional towns? How many historical movie alter facts? I think that makes the argument a draw.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Capt.Failure » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:01 pm

Shadowman wrote:Because other films don't suffer from it to the same degree as ROTF.


Hearing you say this is really dissapointing. The problem is nobody else cares about it in other films. I can grab a film at random and come up with just as many errors. I picked Die Hard, which is largely considered one of the bases for the modern action film. Quoting IMDB.


•Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): When the SWAT team is trying to break into the front door of the tower they first try picking the lock to no avail. Then we see a SWAT team member carrying a metal cutting torch attempting to cut through the lock. The SWAT team would have just broken the glass to get in and not waste time using a metal cutting torch to cut the door lock. The glass is obviously breakable as shown in the same scene when the terrorists fire upon the SWAT team.


•Continuity: The bloody wound on officer Al's head disappears completely, shortly after the terrorist shoots at his police car.


•Revealing mistakes: The eyes of the dead terrorist in the elevator close just before Gruber touches his face.


•Continuity: The Christmas tree on the table that Karl hides behind is lying down before it gets knocked over by McClane later.


•Continuity: The first and second rocket attacks both blow out the same window on the APC.


•Continuity: McClane swings through the window on the hose and lands on his back. In the next shot, he's on his chest.


•Revealing mistakes: Obvious stunt double for McClane (missing a tattoo on the shoulder) during the fight with Karl.


•Revealing mistakes: Obvious stunt double for John McClane during the fight with Tony.


•Continuity: When McClane is having a gun fight on the roof of the building he slides down a slide with his machine gun in the right hand; the next shot he has the gun in the left hand.


•Revealing mistakes: Squibs are visible on the metal door that McClane goes through when Karl shoots at him during their final fight.


•Continuity: Early in the film, shortly after the terrorists have launched their assault, McClane glances out a window and sees a woman in the building across the street. However, previous and subsequent long shots of the building he's in show that there are no other buildings close by.


•Continuity: When McClane goes to the roof to get the hostages off, he is not wearing his undershirt, but in the view from the helicopter when he is firing into the air, you can see him wearing a white undershirt.


•Factual errors: Several times during transmissions with the two-way radios, characters interrupt each other, which would be impossible given the type of radios they were using.


•Revealing mistakes: When jumping off the roof at Nakatomi Plaza just before it explodes, you can clearly see John McClane's "rubber shoes" that were used to protect his feet. While the people are being held hostage, he is supposed to be barefoot. His support wire is also visible in addition to the fire hose.


•Boom mic visible: Just after we are first introduced to Johnson and Johnson, Hans is seen walking on the top floor in, looking up and shining his flashlight. In the Forward Tracking Shot, just before he climbs the wall, the shadow of the boom mic is visible just above his shadow on the far right of the screen in the widescreen version of the film.


•Continuity: Al's patrol car has had the spotlights removed, but in the overhead shot of Marco's body crashing through the windscreen, there are dual spotlights visible.


•Continuity: Trim on the rear doors of Al's patrol car disappears and changes style.


•Continuity: John's tank top changes from white to gray in various scenes.


•Continuity: When John is first hanging from the hose from the roof, he ends up right next to a band of stone between floors, in the next shot he is directly in front of a window.


•Continuity: When Karl steps out of the elevator after Hans and John's conversation, he appears on the right, then left, then right side of the hall.


•Continuity: In the fight between John and Karl, John jumps onto Karl's back and knocks him onto his stomach on the rolling cart. In the next shot, however, Karl is lying on his back.


•Continuity: When Karl's brother comes to apprehend John, we see a close-up of his weapon when he flicks the light switch. The charging handle is forward (the bolt is closed). In the next shot, however, it's back, and the bolt is open. We later see him slap the handle forward.


•Revealing mistakes: Right after John states his name as John and is told to hold tight, the drill on the safe is restarted and the sparks start coming out before the drill starts moving. Also the sound of the drill is at a way higher RPM than the drill itself is moving once it does start moving.


•Crew or equipment visible: In the shots that we see of John McClane when he asks the hostages where his wife has been taken to by the terrorists, you can see the pyrotechnic charges taped to the roof that are about to be used. When the helicopter swings overhead and a soldier uses his machine gun, you can see the charges detonating and the fact that they are charges being used to simulate M-60 bullets hitting the roof.


•Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): After the terrorists blow the roof up, and the hostages are running down the stairs, one of the hostages gets hit in the head with a softball-sized rock and it doesn't faze him.


•Audio/visual unsynchronized: When John is first chased by a terrorist, up on the floor still under construction, he turns on and off a radial arm saw. The very distinct sound of the blade running against either a kerf in the fence or a kerf in the table can be heard. However, when the terrorist finds the saw, it can be clearly seen that the blade is running free.


•Audio/visual unsynchronized: When the swat team is trying to enter the building and they fail to pick the lock, a swat team member clearly lights a cutting torch to burn the lock. A few scenes later you can clearly hear a grinding sound indicating a drill or grinder is being used to try to break the lock.


•Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): When Theo updates Hans on the police activity, he reports that "the four assholes [are] coming in the rear in standard two-by-two cover formation." The SWAT team members are not in '2x2 cover', they're all running together single file (more or less).


•Audio/visual unsynchronized: When Argyle first learns of the Nakatomi takeover, he is pouring a glass of whiskey just off screen with the appropriate sound effect. However, when the glass reappears on screen a moment later, it is empty.


•Continuity: Prior to climbing down an elevator shaft staircase, McClane (who is supposed to be barefoot) is clearly seen wearing shoes as he jumps through an elevated service door.


•Continuity: McClane's shirt goes from white and then to a dark grey and then to a mixed color or dirt, blood and white.


•Factual errors: Although a reporter refers to the terrorists radios as CB radios, the walkie-talkie is either a VHF or UHF, not HF radio, therefore not capable of transmitting in the 27.065MHz emergency channel of the Citizen's Band (Channel 9)


•Factual errors: When McClane drops the monitor with the C4 down the elevator shaft, he has time to jump away from the door as the explosion rises. The gases from C4 actually expand faster than the speed of sound, so his face would have been melted off.


•Revealing mistakes: When reporter Richard Thornburg is listening to his police scanner, he hears Officer Powell screaming for backup. At this point the red lights on the front of the scanner are continually blinking from left to right. However, on this particular model scanner the lights would cease blinking, and remain solid on a single channel as long as it was active.


•Revealing mistakes: When Hans reaches out to turn the dead man's head in the lift, the man's head moves to the left before Hans has actually touched him. The corpse also blinks.


•Factual errors: As in most movies, the C-4 explosive is packaged incorrectly. Real 1.25 pound blocks of C-4 are packaged in dark green (olive drab) plastic wrapping with yellow markings.


•Audio/visual unsynchronized: When Takagi speaks to the employees at the party they erupt in loud applause. Looking at the employees, none are clapping their hands.


•Factual errors: Channel 9 (CB distress channel) is monitored by Radio Emergency Associated Communications Teams (REACT), not the police department. If someone were calling for help on Channel 9, they would talk to a REACT operator, who would then call the authorities. Either way, it would not be an FCC violation.


•Crew or equipment visible: As John is fighting Karl towards the end of the movie, Karl's harness is clearly visible as he is dragged across the room by the chains which are supposedly round his neck.


•Crew or equipment visible: When Karl shoots the second security guard after first entering the building, you can see the outline of the fake blood packets under his shirt.


•Continuity: When Argyle rams Theo's van, the front end of the limousine is thoroughly wrecked. When he comes through the gate at the end of the movie, it's more or less intact. (The gate itself also would have caused more damage than is visible.)


•Continuity: After McClane fires in the air and it shot at but not hit by one of the FBI men, the other agent Johnson (the white guy) says "Swing around again - I'll bag this little bastard" and both agents are looking toward the camera as if the roof is to their left. But the roof of the Nakatomi building can be seen through the window *behind* them, to their right, and the next jump cut indeed shows the building in front of them, not behind.


•Factual errors: Police officers allowed to carry firearms concealed carry because of their state law enforcement license. Police officers are allowed to operate within the borders of their state. The fact that he is in a plane traveling from New York to Los Angeles takes him out of the state and his police license is n/a out of state and in effect his right to carry concealed his n/a. Federal agents and state and local Law Enforcement officer are allowed to carry on commercial flights, but on official police business (i.e. prisoner or VIP escort) Proper paper work and verified ID required.


•Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): When Holly McClane asks the nanny, Paulina, if Mr. McClane called, she responds with "No Mrs. Holly, no teléfono." This is incorrect Spanish; the English translation is "No Mrs. Holly, no telephone." To say he or she did not call, a native Spanish speaker would use "No, Sra. Holly, no llamó."


•Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): When Gail Wallens is discussing the hostage situation at Nakatomi Plaza with Dr. Hasseldorf, the term "Helsinki Syndrome" is mentioned. Harvey Johnson, desperate to join the conversation, replies "As in Helsinki, Sweden". The fact is that he wasn't that far out with that remark. The condition that Dr. Hasseldorf is talking about is actually called the "Stockholm Syndrome", and Stockholm is in fact the capital of Sweden. (This was a joke about usual incompetence of so-called TV "experts".)

•Crew or equipment visible: When the APC blows up and you are viewing the outside view of the vehicle exploding you can clearly see a camera man standing in the window where the rocket was shot from.


•Continuity: Twenty minutes passes by - the time it took for John to get from the airport to the Nakatomi Plaza to join the party - and the orchestra is still playing exactly the same piece.


•Audio/visual unsynchronized: When the terrorist car first pulls up to the Nakatomi Plaza, the noise from the brakes is not consistent with the movement of the vehicle.


•Continuity: After John kills the first terrorist and John is collecting stuff from him, the terrorist's glasses appear and disappear between shots.


•Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): After Powell did his sweep at the Nakatomi building to report the "wild goose chase" (even though he saw the gunshots on the roof from the convenience store), the dispatcher did not follow proper procedure and respond to Powell's transmission, when Powell said, "...everything here is okay, over." Dispatchers always have to echo or respond to the last transmission.


•Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): When Harvey at the News desk is grimacing back at Thornberg's "Eat it, Harvey!", Harvey then gets his five-count cue to go live on the air. The last two counts (and sometimes the last three counts) are always silent and are never called out loud.


•Continuity: Before the second rocket attack on the police armored vehicle, the flames from the first rocket attack, which occurred only a few seconds prior, are all but extinguished.


•Continuity: The flash and fire from the second rocket attack on the police armored vehicle originate from under the vehicle - something impossible from a top-down rocket attack which struck the roof of the vehicle, and furthermore, a frame-by-frame analysis of the shot shows no shell whatsoever hitting the vehicle.


•Revealing mistakes: The $640 million worth bearer bonds that are snowing on the disaster scene after Holly and John escape are nothing but blank pieces of paper.


•Revealing mistakes: When Powell is driving away from the Nakatomi tower, the dead terrorist that John tossed out the window crashes through a pane glass windshield, which went out of use as early as 1919. All vehicles, including Powell's police car, have laminated windshields and there are no deadly shards as with pane glass.


•Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): When the terrorists are first walking in as a group looking very serious and sinister, the one on the far left is on a collision course with the wall! The camera cuts away just before he walks into it.


•Revealing mistakes: In the beginning, while at the party, it's mentioned the time is 5:40 p.m. on Christmas Eve. While Argyle is driving John to Holly's work site at presumably the same time, it is very much daylight. In LA, on Christmas Eve at that time, it would be dark already.


•Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): When Sgt. Al Powell first arrives at Nakatomi Tower, the security guard says he is watching a live broadcast of the annual USC vs. Notre Dame football game. The film takes place on December 24, but college football's regular season has concluded by then. The latest in a given year that the Trojans and Fighting Irish have ever met is December 10th, and they generally meet in October if the game is in South Bend, or in late November if it's in Los Angeles.


•Factual errors: Sgt Al Powell is dispatched to check out the prank call at Nakatomi Plaza and is seen in a marked LAPD squad car. Later he tells John McClane that he was on his way home from a desk job at the police station. Desk personnel NEVER get dispatched on service calls when off duty, let alone take a marked squad car home.


•Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): Much of the "word play" between" McClane (Bruce Willis) in the building and Sgt. Powell outside made reference to Roy Rogers, by calling each other "Roy" and with McClane shouting "Happy Trails" (Roy Rogers' theme song) at the terrorists. However, the phrase "Yippee Ki O" to Hans is line more associated with Gene Autry than with Roy Rogers.


•Continuity: John's vest is white when he enters the vent system and dark green when he exits. This is not, as some think, a result of accumulated dirt.


•Continuity: When John is searching the body of Karl's brother, in one shot the terrorist's legs are straight, but in the next shot, they are curled to the left.


•Revealing mistakes: When McClane fist arrives at the Nakatomi building, he is told to search for his wife's name in the database. When he clicks "G", Holly's name comes up with her last name spelled "GennEro". When he clicks on her profile, it is spelled "GennAro". It is spelled with the "E" on her office door as well.


•Continuity: When John and Karl are fighting, Karl shoots John in the back. Later when John jumps over Karl the shot from behind does not show any blood.


•Continuity: When John is in the elevator shaft listening to the terrorists speak he writes their names down on his hand with a felt tip pen, but the names disappear for the rest of the movie.


•Factual errors: At the end of the film Hans is holding onto John's wife's wrist by her Rolex watch (which was mentioned in the dialog early in the film). To release Hans to fall to the ground John flips the clasp on the watch and it falls from her wrist allowing Hans to fall. Rolex watches do not have such a clasp. They are a continuous loop, and are merely loosened for removal by a clasp which effectively increases the size of the loop. The strap is shown to be a non continuous piece.

•Continuity: SPOILER: There is no ambulance in the truck when the terrorists first arrive, but Theo drives an ambulance out of the truck near the end of the movie (error acknowledged by filmmakers).


•Continuity: SPOILER: In the first close up where Hans is hanging from Holly's wrist, there is blood on Holly's face from John's arm. In the second close up this blood is missing.


•Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): SPOILER: On the ambulance used for the escape near the end, "Department" in "Fire Department" is misspelled "Deparment". But, it isn't a real ambulance, and furthermore, it was painted by people who don't speak English.


•Crew or equipment visible: SPOILER: Near the end of the movie, when McClane walks through the large hall (where the hostages had been held captive earlier), you can see a shadow of someone behind the Christmas tree just after the tree falls.


•Continuity: SPOILER: As Hans falls out of the window the window breaks and there is no glass on the sides of the window. Then by the next shot you can clearly see glass on the left side of the window.


•Continuity: SPOILER: In the battle scene with the police, Alexander's first shot with the anti-tank gun breaks the glass. However, the second shot also breaks the same pane of glass.


•Continuity: SPOILER: Several times over the course of the film, it is demonstrated that the windows of the Nakatomi building all contain safety glass - glass that is coated with a polymer that: A) like the windshield of an automobile, will break into tiny fragments or rounded beads, and B) will remain a continuous sheet due to its special coating, even though the glass within is shattered. Near the end of the movie when Hans is shot, however, the window he breaks and falls through, unlike all the other previous windows, shatters as a normal untreated pane would do - breaking into large dangerous shards instead of the normal safety glass fragments.


•Continuity: SPOILER: After Gruber kills Takagi, the mess that it made on the window is virtually gone in the next shot.


•Revealing mistakes: SPOILER: When Hans is holding onto Holly's watch out of the window and then falls, he is shot in slow motion but the paper that is falling in the background is moving at normal speed.


Basically, it more or less equals RotF in the number and severity of errors. The problem here is nobody cares about these. The vocal majority bas made RotF's errors seem worse than they are.

Shadowman wrote:That's about the most hypocritical thing in this entire thread.


I'm still waiting on him to actually contribute to the conversation. Until then accusations of hypocracy are unfounded. I don't give children on the internet the time of day.
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Re: Is anyone else scared?

Postby Shadowman » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:19 pm

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Capt.Failure wrote:
Shadowman wrote:That's about the most hypocritical thing in this entire thread.


I'm still waiting on him to actually contribute to the conversation. Until then accusations of hypocracy are unfounded. I don't give children on the internet the time of day.


Wow, are you being serious right now? Go re-read what Starscream Gaga said about Citizen Kane and the "plot hole" you brought up. Then go sit in the corner.
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