The Energon Pub

Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:42 am

I love TransFormers. We all do, that's why you're reading this. Yet, I can't help but cringe a bit every time a reference is made to the '86 animated film in any new TF-related media. Now first things first, I'm not against references and homages to G1, that's not what this is about.

We all love Peter Cullen's voice for Optimus and, as an aside, the much-loathed Michael Bay did give us three films, two games and a new tv-series featuring his return to the role. We love Soundwave and his minions, Starscream the whiny backstabber and so on, and so on. But it seems that every bit of reference to G1 dialogue or a visual homage stems from the animated film. Think of:

- The Universal Greeting, we get it, it's a funny sounding phrase.
- Any memorable line from the Prime/Megatron fight. How many times have they said "One shall stand..." since? Megatron even finishes for Optimus in the Prime series.
- The clamoring for a live-action Unicron story. It's the most-heard rumor or plot idea since RotF was announced.
- Endless homages to Starscream's coronation and all the lines and his outfit connected to that scene. Any time he manages to take control, out comes the crown and the bad comedy.
- Characters newly introduced in this film being as famous as Season 1 guys. Ultra Magnus and Perceptor are just as popular and well known as Jazz and Cliffjumper. Despite debuting two years later.
- Optimus dying in every series since, and the Matrix being a staple of the series. Getting a bit stale at this point.
- Stan Bush covering his own song and writing a new one for the films and WFC/FOC. As much as I like The Touch, its sound is so 80's-licious, it shouldn't be used for modern media.

Long story short, it sometimes feels like the film is all certain writers saw before adding in an obliged G1 reference. Other times it feels as if they expect us to only remember or like the film. It's just weird. Almost 30 years of fiction tends to be forgotten, or spends lots of its content looking back at TF:TM themselves.

Is anybody else a bit tired of the homage-fest these days? I prefer tributes to be done like Animated and specifically the AllSpark Almanacs; subtle, self-aware and based on the entire franchise that preceded it. From Beast Machines to Kiss Players. And that's just about as varied as the franchise can get. Why stick to a single 90-minute film?

News Credits: 2 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:49 am

Rushie wrote:- Characters newly introduced in this film being as famous as Season 1 guys. Ultra Magnus and Perceptor are just as popular and well known as Jazz and Cliffjumper. Despite debuting two years later.

Perceptor actually debuted in Season 2. As for the rest, well, we had time to get used to them, and they turned out to not be so bad.

Rushie wrote:- Optimus dying in every series since, and the Matrix being a staple of the series. Getting a bit stale at this point.

Optimus dying is getting a bit old, and it lost its flavor a while ago. But the Matrix has been given enough backstory and explanation at this point that it's an acceptable symbol of being Prime.

News Credits: 20 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:45 am

I agree, the endless 86' movie references are getting old. Really though, what do you want them to reference? The Carwash of Doom? Lord Chumley? AutoBop? Ultra Magnus' birthday?

The movie is really the best point of reference for the writers because the best episodes from G1 were already used as inspiration for Dark of the Moon. Rehashing something that was done in the 80's is easier to do than rehashing something that was already rehashed. That includes the references they used in Transformers Animated (which was about 80% reference)

News Credits: 22 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:26 pm

It's all a matter of opinion. I don't mind references to G1, or just the 1986 movie. I enjoy watching the movie, do it at least once a year. G1 is the foundation for Transformers, like it or not. That's why it's the 1st generation. Does it mean it's the best? Once again, it's a matter of opinion. I don't believe it is, but it's sure the most nostalgic. Of all the series I've seen, there's something in them that can be connected or attributed to G1. No other series has that.

And I would LOVE to see a straight live adaptation of the 1986 movie, even if it's straight to DVD or Blu Ray, whether they use Bay's designs or not.

News Credits: 15 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:54 pm

I'm neutral as well. I think the only time it ever bothered me was in Transformers: Prime. They use the "One Shall Stand, One Shall Fall" quote too much.

News Credits: 2 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:11 pm

PrymeStriker wrote:I'm neutral as well. I think the only time it ever bothered me was in Transformers: Prime. They use the "One Shall Stand, One Shall Fall" quote too much.

I really want them to include a line like:

Optimus: "One shall sta--"
Megatron: "One shall fall! Do you have any idea how sick I am of hearing that?!"

News Credits: 6188 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:32 pm

Shadowman wrote:
PrymeStriker wrote:I'm neutral as well. I think the only time it ever bothered me was in Transformers: Prime. They use the "One Shall Stand, One Shall Fall" quote too much.

I really want them to include a line like:

Optimus: "One shall sta--"
Megatron: "One shall fall! Do you have any idea how sick I am of hearing that?!"

The RID comics series will be using 'One shall stand, Many shall fall' in March, by the looks of it. But it is overused, especially in the Prime series.

What about those kneeling? Crawling? Hopping! What about Thundertron, who quite possibly limps from place to place?

Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:20 am

References to older episodes in a cartoon/comic happen all of the time. For example, in Superman they reference that he "can leap tall buildings in a single bound." In the old Superman comics, he could not fly but had a killer vertical leap. Heck referencing older works has been.... a tradition. There have references to the Bible and Greco-Roman mythology throughout pop culture since the Renaisance and earlier. More recently, Akira Kurosawa movies about samurai has been an influence for everything from The Magnificent Seven, The Good, Bad, and the Ugly, and even Star Wars. The only question is when will a G1 Transformers reference will used in a movie, TV show, sport metaphor (other than nicknames), political speech, or something else completely unrelated to TFs.

News Credits: 20 · Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:29 am

d_sel1 wrote:The only question is when will a G1 Transformers reference will used in a movie, TV show, sport metaphor (other than nicknames), political speech, or something else completely unrelated to TFs.

Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:37 am

Fires_Of_Inferno wrote:
d_sel1 wrote:The only question is when will a G1 Transformers reference will used in a movie, TV show, sport metaphor (other than nicknames), political speech, or something else completely unrelated to TFs.

I was thinking way out of left field. Like some BBC commentator refering to a African dictator as a real life Megatron eg. For example, in the most overquoted reference in sports history, Larry Lucchino (Boston exec) refered to the New York Yankees as "the evil empire" from Star Wars.

News Credits: 4 · Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:44 am

Sometimes a good refereence is worth it. I like being able to understand the referneces and nods the writers throw into the series because I like Easter Egg hunting. I don't know, I think I just like to know more about something than my brother does.

But the whole "One Shall" speech is definatly getting old. Maybe ONCE in a season, or even the series, but not everytime Megatron and Optimus go toe-to-toe with one and another. >:oP

Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:49 pm

Hell, yeah! Doesn't help for me that it has not aged well at all. Overall I find the 2007 movie to be superior to it. I find episodes of G1 itself to be superior to it! :-x

News Credits: 1 · Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:07 am

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Hell, yeah! Doesn't help for me that it has not aged well at all. Overall I find the 2007 movie to be superior to it. I find episodes of G1 itself to be superior to it!

Okay, you're out.

News Credits: 15 · Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:04 pm

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Overall I find the 2007 movie to be superior to it. I find episodes of G1 itself to be superior to it!

How dare you. :-x

Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:10 pm

RhA wrote:
RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Hell, yeah! Doesn't help for me that it has not aged well at all. Overall I find the 2007 movie to be superior to it. I find episodes of G1 itself to be superior to it!

Okay, you're out.

Nope. I'm in. The movie is out.

PrymeStriker wrote:
RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Overall I find the 2007 movie to be superior to it. I find episodes of G1 itself to be superior to it!

How dare you.

I saw the damned thing in theaters opening week. So, yeah. It's actually pretty bad.

News Credits: 1 · Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:09 pm

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:
RhA wrote:
RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Hell, yeah! Doesn't help for me that it has not aged well at all. Overall I find the 2007 movie to be superior to it. I find episodes of G1 itself to be superior to it!

Okay, you're out.

Nope. I'm in. The movie is out.

PrymeStriker wrote:
RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Overall I find the 2007 movie to be superior to it. I find episodes of G1 itself to be superior to it!

How dare you.

I saw the damned thing in theaters opening week. So, yeah. It's actually pretty bad.

This should be a bannable offense.

Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:12 pm

The Meg's an OP quotes are over used almost to a " why did the chicken cross the road? " point. I'd love to here some if the great one lines from other points in the series like : "it's a boobie trap that actually catches boobies." Or " as the earthlings say ' fat chance, fat head'" both Optimus quotes. I used to love how the transformers would continuously screw up Engligh phrases too.

News Credits: 1 · Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:40 pm

The '86 Movie gets more attention than the episodes and gets referenced more simply because it was everything the original series wasn't. For its time and for the audience attending, it was dark, it was violent, it was unforgiving. You saw Autobots go down and STAY DOWN! You had Spike dropping the "S" bomb and you got to see Starscream utterly destroyed. It earned the right to have more attention than the episodes because it eclipsed everything that came before it and paved the road for everything to come after. What irks me more than overused homages is the fact that those who have come after use them to the point that all respect has been lost.
Like with Unicron. Voiced by an absolute legend among actors (even if he could have cared less about the VA role he was doing at the time) I personally feel that Unicron should have been a character with exactly 1 life span (the '86 movie) and should NEVER EVER see life again. It's a simple respect thing. Respect the actor, respect the character, let them rest eternal. Same goes for Chris Latta and Starsceam. BUT...that's not something that I would expect todays generation to understand and as a result we will likely get a sh**fest of a TF4 movie with Unicron popping into the picture.
It all boils down to respect. Yes, some of the new writers are trying to show some respect for what came before but done improperly it's just making a farce of it all. Don't blame the first motion picture for being a tired, worn out property (because it isn't) blame the people whop came afterwards that didn't show proper respect for history.

News Credits: 2 · Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:05 pm

T-Macksimus wrote:The '86 Movie gets more attention than the episodes and gets referenced more simply because it was everything the original series wasn't. For its time and for the audience attending, it was dark, it was violent, it was unforgiving. You saw Autobots go down and STAY DOWN! You had Spike dropping the "S" bomb and you got to see Starscream utterly destroyed. It earned the right to have more attention than the episodes because it eclipsed everything that came before it and paved the road for everything to come after. What irks me more than overused homages is the fact that those who have come after use them to the point that all respect has been lost.
Like with Unicron. Voiced by an absolute legend among actors (even if he could have cared less about the VA role he was doing at the time) I personally feel that Unicron should have been a character with exactly 1 life span (the '86 movie) and should NEVER EVER see life again. It's a simple respect thing. Respect the actor, respect the character, let them rest eternal. Same goes for Chris Latta and Starsceam. BUT...that's not something that I would expect todays generation to understand and as a result we will likely get a sh**fest of a TF4 movie with Unicron popping into the picture.
It all boils down to respect. Yes, some of the new writers are trying to show some respect for what came before but done improperly it's just making a farce of it all. Don't blame the first motion picture for being a tired, worn out property (because it isn't) blame the people whop came afterwards that didn't show proper respect for history.

So should we stop using Superman since Christopher Reeves died? Should we stop using the Joker because Heath Ledger died? Should Doctor Who have cancelled because William Hartnell died? How about Sherlock Holmes and Basil Rathborne?

No, because characters aren't defined strictly by those who play them. The performance does lend to the character, to be sure, but retiring iconic characters simply because of the passing of someone who played them is just a waste of a good character.

And those examples? They aren't quite on the same scale, since they weren't, you know, 20-90 minute toy commercials.

News Credits: 6 · Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:55 pm

"I would have waited an eternity for this" is another over-used one, along with "Light our darkest hour", though the way Ratchet delivered it in Darkness Rising was spot on.

News Credits: 3 · Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:22 pm

My gripe regarding excessive allusion is that it threatens to cheapen the value of the original and might, in the end, undermine the experience of the new.

I have the same concern with the Clone Wars, which has, at some point, recycled just about the entire script of all six movies. Actually, someone should make a video recreating the films by splicing together quotes from the Clone Wars...

This is an issue for kids' franchises mainly because the allusion is most likely to be the first time the primary audience encounters the reference. That audience won't catch the allusion until they see the source material. This means that the source material, on first watching, might paradoxically feel more derivative than the alluding media. But once the viewer realizes that the witty quip in the allusion was lifted from the source, it might spoil what had seemed like wit.

I'm certainly not saying allusions should never be made. Alluding to sources outside of the franchise can make the franchise richer, and the "easter egg" effect does have value for adult audiences.

But there does come a point when internal allusions start seeming cheap, like the writers are just cut-and-pasting scripts together.

I'd also like to distinguish between this kind of allusion and an in-joke or a callback. The problem with this kind of allusion is that it always comes off as being the first time the quote or scene is being used in this particular iteration of the franchise. That's different from a callback allusion to previous events or phrases within the current series.

Just my two-cents.

News Credits: 7 · Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:06 pm

References should be fun, not formality. Prime and, to a greater extent, WfC/FoC are definitely making it more of a formality at this point -- every bout between OP and Megs starts with "One shall stand...", anytime a side is at a disadvantage it's their "darkest hour", Rumble only speaks in quotes, etc..

Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:51 pm

How about this for a change up, how many times did G1 (or other continuitees) reference something else.

Examples:
Gambler's Paradise- The city of Sheol is a reference to the underworld.

BOT (yes I referenced BOT)- The two punks Rowan and Martin were named after the host of a 60's skit comedy show which even had Richard Nixon as a guest star (which was weird because its politics were named 60's left?)

Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:10 am

Prime really needs a new scriptwriter. I can see Megatron just standing there "just say your line already, Prime, so we can fight and go home for some cold energon"

Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:34 am

Thr writers just need to pick a few new ones. We wouldn't be tired of One Shall Stand if we didn't hear it as often. And phrases like "Tinfoil Turkey" made me cringe even back in the day, so none of those, please.