The Energon Pub

over 4K pictures are now up on facebook. so what do they do? close Facebook in pakistan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLRiRn5nls0

what is it with religous people and they're prophets. did you know i got thrown out of sunday school for a picture of jesus?

Dr. Heavy B wrote:what is it with religous people and they're prophets. did you know i got thrown out of sunday school for a picture of jesus?

I can believe it.

In sunday school my parents were always talking to the people who ran it. I was always reading nintendo power issues and they didn't like the images of the castlevania sections, and we would play as the monsters and not as simon.

I am going to watch this to make sure it does not turn into a "religion" bashing thread.

Whatever your beliefs are, keep them at the door.

Thanks.

Dr. Heavy B wrote:what is it with religous people and they're prophets. did you know i got thrown out of sunday school for a picture of jesus?

Really!? Wow. At my church they have books and **** with Jesus on it. Whats so bad about it!?

SlyTF1 wrote:

Dr. Heavy B wrote:what is it with religous people and they're prophets. did you know i got thrown out of sunday school for a picture of jesus?

Really!? Wow. At my church they have books and **** with Jesus on it. Whats so bad about it!?

Well, if you want to understand it, you have to actually try to do so first off.

Muslims (and some orthodox Christian sects) object to the depiction of God and prophets in any visual form because they think that if you can see an image of the person/character, then your attention/praise/woship is focused on the image and not what the image represents. They are against idol worship. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's one of those religion things that has been carried to its (semi)logical extent.

The issue at hand, is that while Islam has rules, they act as if their rules should govern the behavior of others who do not hold their beliefs. So, on one hand, while Christians may find things to be blasphemous, and you can take any example you like from any multitude of offensive/wrong/DanBrown takes on Christianity, they do not actively and dangerously assault the freedom of speech to do so. Now, Christians may be huge dicks about it, or they may protest Harry Potter, or say some idiotic **** about media they don't understand...

...they don't as a group threaten death to those involved.

Now, I'm sure there are some examples someone can find of JK Rowlings getting threatend or whatever, but there are not organized groups out there actively attempting to pursue those goals.

I don't object to Islam, Muslim teachings, whatever. But their rules are for their people. I'm Catholic myself and (regardless of my personal opinion on the matter), our rules should F'ing rule only over our church. Best example is while I may personally be against abortion, I shut my mouth about the idea of making it against the law because other groups don't have to subscribe to my beliefs.

Thus is the crux of the debate, Muslim groups bent out of shape over visual depictions of Mohammad, they need to shut up and regulate their own behavior. Why? Because 1st Amendment rights in this country CLEARLY trump any point of debate they have on the matter. Christian objectors to similar matters have already been in those battles and lost.

Counterpunch wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Dr. Heavy B wrote:what is it with religous people and they're prophets. did you know i got thrown out of sunday school for a picture of jesus?

Really!? Wow. At my church they have books and **** with Jesus on it. Whats so bad about it!?

Well, if you want to understand it, you have to actually try to do so first off.

Muslims (and some orthodox Christian sects) object to the depiction of God and prophets in any visual form because they think that if you can see an image of the person/character, then your attention/praise/woship is focused on the image and not what the image represents. They are against idol worship. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's one of those religion things that has been carried to its (semi)logical extent.

The issue at hand, is that while Islam has rules, they act as if their rules should govern the behavior of others who do not hold their beliefs. So, on one hand, while Christians may find things to be blasphemous, and you can take any example you like from any multitude of offensive/wrong/DanBrown takes on Christianity, they do not actively and dangerously assault the freedom of speech to do so. Now, Christians may be huge dicks about it, or they may protest Harry Potter, or say some idiotic **** about media they don't understand...

...they don't as a group threaten death to those involved.

Now, I'm sure there are some examples someone can find of JK Rowlings getting threatend or whatever, but there are not organized groups out there actively attempting to pursue those goals.

I don't object to Islam, Muslim teachings, whatever. But their rules are for their people. I'm Catholic myself and (regardless of my personal opinion on the matter), our rules should F'ing rule only over our church. Best example is while I may personally be against abortion, I shut my mouth about the idea of making it against the law because other groups don't have to subscribe to my beliefs.

Thus is the crux of the debate, Muslim groups bent out of shape over visual depictions of Mohammad, they need to shut up and regulate their own behavior. Why? Because 1st Amendment rights in this country CLEARLY trump any point of debate they have on the matter. Christian objectors to similar matters have already been in those battles and lost.

Yea the thing with drawing a religious character is weird, I remember from RE we were told that you can't draw god as it's forbidden, then 5 minutes later we where told to draw a picture of god as a triangle.


The sad thing is that Muslims are now generally seen as terrorists and as a whole a very aggressive bunch wanting war with the rest of the world. The saddest thing about it is that the whole Islamic fundamentalism and people have to live after those exact rules has only existed since the middle of the 20th century, not too long ago muslims would buy draw, paint and buy pictures of their prophets, which also include Jesus. Some stores in Iran for instance still have some of those behind their counter, they can't sell them but they are too holy to be thrown away.
Personally I don't believe that the Muslims will let themselves be controlled by these fundamentalists for much longer.

Dead Metal wrote:we where told to draw a picture of god as a triangle.

God is a dodecahedron, infidel scum!

Counterpunch wrote:[a lot of stuff]

Just so we're on the same page here, you mean just certain groups rather than the religion as a whole, correct? The former is true for any religion. (The man who killed a doctor who performed abortions recently was not Muslim, for example) The latter, however, is just untrue.

(Which reminds me, this discussion is the very same one that ended with the Philosopher's Forum being closed the first time, if I remember correctly)

Tekka wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:we where told to draw a picture of god as a triangle.

God is a dodecahedron, infidel scum!

Lies nothing but lies! You will burn for this heresy!

Shadowman wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:[a lot of stuff]

Just so we're on the same page here, you mean just certain groups rather than the religion as a whole, correct? The former is true for any religion. (The man who killed a doctor who performed abortions recently was not Muslim, for example) The latter, however, is just untrue.

(Which reminds me, this discussion is the very same one that ended with the Philosopher's Forum being closed the first time, if I remember correctly)

No that topic was about why we should destroy the Muslim religion and not about people standing up to free speech.

I object to Draw Muhammad Day because it's mainly being partaken by people who don't care about free speech. Most people who are engaging in this "day" are people who doing it because they think they get a free ticket to offend Muslims under the guise of doing it in defense of free speech. Drawing a depiction of Muhammad isn't necessary to exercise free speech.

Free speech isn't truly free. It doesn't give one the freedom to express simply anything they want. That's why defamation laws exist in many countries.

Apparently Draw Muhammad Day was inspired by the situation with South Park's Muhammad fiasco...do people actually realize that the Revolution Muslim group, who threatened Matt Stone and Trey Parker are a group who apparently consist of 5 to 10 people? Maybe there are others but that's the only "Muslim group bent out of shape" by the Muhammad depiction. So, yes, a group of up to 10 people who claim to be Muslims are really what started the situation leading up to Draw Muhammad Day.

Dead Metal wrote:No that topic was about why we should destroy the Muslim religion and not about people standing up to free speech.

Ah of course, I remember now. What struck me most about it was that it was nothing but blatant lies used to support an extremely ignorant viewpoint.

it wasn't the topic that closed the first iteration of the Philosopher's forum, it was going downhill long before that, though it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Shadowman wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:[a lot of stuff]

Just so we're on the same page here, you mean just certain groups rather than the religion as a whole, correct?

Yes. Very much so.

the way i see it is we have freedom of religion. and we have freedom of speech. Now while some may use their freedom to offend your religion, they have the right to talk smack just as much as you have the right to pray.

now I'm not saying they have the right to assault you, terrorize you, and make you life a living hell. But you really shouldn't take everything said as a direct personal insult either.

when it comes to religion, the Joker sums it up best

Name_Violation wrote:the way i see it is we have freedom of religion. and we have freedom of speech. Now while some may use their freedom to offend your religion, they have the right to talk smack just as much as you have the right to pray.

now I'm not saying they have the right to assault you, terrorize you, and make you life a living hell. But you really shouldn't take everything said as a direct personal insult either.

when it comes to religion, the Joker sums it up best

You know what i dont get? If Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God, then why the f*k dont they just believe each other? if God said he'd never lie, then when God said that Jesus was his son, then are Muslims and Jews calling God a liar? Thats going against their whole purpose (Im Christian BTW) thats the **** I dont get. Besides Muslims believe that Jesus is coming back just like Christians do, WTF is up with that!? So why are there those 3 religions that are known for threatening each other?

SlyTF1 wrote:

Name_Violation wrote:the way i see it is we have freedom of religion. and we have freedom of speech. Now while some may use their freedom to offend your religion, they have the right to talk smack just as much as you have the right to pray.

now I'm not saying they have the right to assault you, terrorize you, and make you life a living hell. But you really shouldn't take everything said as a direct personal insult either.

when it comes to religion, the Joker sums it up best

You know what i dont get? If Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God, then why the f*k dont they just believe each other? if God said he'd never lie, then when God said that Jesus was his son, then are Muslims and Jews calling God a liar? Thats going against their whole purpose (Im Christian BTW) thats the **** I dont get. Besides Muslims believe that Jesus is coming back just like Christians do, WTF is up with that!? So why are there those 3 religions that are known for threatening each other?

It's the same god, but many differing belifs. Many differing belifs.

Also, i just wanted to say... this is one of the deepest threads on this site.

SlyTF1 wrote: if God said he'd never lie, then when God said that Jesus was his son, then are Muslims and Jews calling God a liar?

That part is a bit complicated. They never called God a liar because God never spoke up. All they had was Jesus' word that he was the Son of God, but his teachings were extremely contradictory to the religious conventions of the time. Relatively speaking what he taught was heretical, though he preached love and peace, he also preached that God was forgiving, and that you could get away with anything so long as you asked. It was contradictory to how things were supposed to be, be a good person or God will kick your ass.

Then there's the whole "Sent His only son to die" part that turns most people away, which you're probably thinking about after that last paragraph. I kind of liked how Paradise Lost dealt with it; God found Himself incapable of preventing Original Sin, so His Son decided to take human form and sacrifice himself to give humanity a clean slate.

SlyTF1 wrote:

Dr. Heavy B wrote:what is it with religous people and they're prophets. did you know i got thrown out of sunday school for a picture of jesus?

Really!? Wow. At my church they have books and **** with Jesus on it. Whats so bad about it!?

Suppose it depends on the church and the denomination.

I'm Catholic and at the Catholic schools and children's litergies I went to we were encouraged to draw Jesus.

And frankly, a 5 year old drawing Jesus isn't going to churn out somethign respectable.

But it does make me raise an eyebrow when you see extremists with signs that say "Kill people who say Islam is violent" or "Behead people who draw Muhammed". I have lots of Muslim friends and while none of them are keen on art works of him, they wouldn't go around desiring the deaths of peopel who do.

All faiths and groups have their crazy fringe element.

In the US we have the right to believe whatever we want. I can have my ideas and you can have yours.

Unfortunately it is not like that everywhere in the world. Thankfully, I don't live there.

Whoever came up with the idea for "Draw Muhammad Day" did so in order to irritate people. As far as I am concerned, I will not be drawing any cartoons. Leave people alone.

sorry, but this is too funny

My history class is making it's own Wiki page, and someone had a Muhamad page. Some @$$hole put a picture of Muhamad on the page and from what I heard this one guy in my class got pissed! I saw it 2 days before, but I didnt want to do anything, just because 1. I didnt want to interfere with other people's affairs, and 2. I just wanted to see what would happen!

I agree with what Counterpunch said. Personally, I'm Christian. But I don't believe any one religion has gotten things exactly right. I see good points in almost all religions, including Islam. As CP said, religious rules should govern people of that religion and hold no authority over people who are not a part of that religion. The abortion issue was a great example. Just because I think it's wrong does not mean that I have the right to deny another person of making their own choice.

That said, I personally would not draw an image of Muhammad, out of respect for the Muslim people's wishes. I try to respect others' spiritual beliefs and feelings as I would want them to respect mine. However, I do believe that Matt Stone and Trey Parker have the right to air whatever they choose in their tv show.