The Energon Pub

Pilgrim76 wrote:

Looking at all the evidence presented, what makes most sense to me is that the factoy kept making more toys using the legit molds to make some extra money. Same with the casettes.

Yup. So they are stricly unlicensed and fakes (but I agree, everyone will define fake differently, for me as for most of collectors, fake=unlicensed).

Yeah I can definitely agree on those points. If the licensing is release based then sure these toys can be see as unlicensed from a legal standpoint. What is hard though is those that will sell these toys loose.

And judging from everything else beign sold by Lena and the perfect synch with Chinese produced transformers I am certain that everything sold by Lena is made using the same molds as the original releases. I am not tryign to convine anyone, I just want to state that I have chosen to believe looking at the facts, like the fact that Lena only sells toys of molds that are based in a chinese Hasbro factory pretty much seals the deal for me as to what is going on. There is no proof either way (and there willnever be until one of us goes to the factory in person), but one is more logical. The reverse would have more assumptions so Occam's razor points to the factory suppying Lena TF toys using official molds rather than reverse egineering toys and making their own molds (which is the definition of a KO).

The analysis was not published nor was it detailed, it was just someone saying that they found no discernable difference between what they got from Lena and the toy they got originally when it came out.

And skywarp-2, Hasbro and Takara use the same factory. They have to since they use the same molds and those arent transported around.

Tyrannacon wrote:I do remember that Scorponok KO that was mentioned by this site a while ago regarding how it was difficult somewhat to discern it from the original, but it had easier ways to tell for it being a KO than in this scenario. I'm now more reluctant to buy from Lena here. I do watch her auctions periodically and I mean she has good/decent deals, but the fact it's KO is just... I always see KO having an inferior quality to the real thing. Even though that's not always true itself to a point. Just the big thing is I'm sure the QA stuff is not the same and less care involved in that.

I can confirm that the QA stuff is not the same. A Buzzsaw I got from Lena was missing a painted eye. I got my money back though and got to keep my illigitimate casettes.

Pilgrim76 wrote:About your MP-24, I can't really tell. This is a toy I am planning to purchase soon, and I've seen plenty of KOs on ebay (advertised as such). I feel that for this one, I should probably look on BBTS.

For any international buyers, this is the best place to get MP Starsabre for a decent price:

http://jungle-scs.co.jp/sale_en/?page_i ... 1000042296

Its a japanese secondary seller, adn you can get it for cheaper if you choose an open box.

william-james88 wrote:

Tyrannacon wrote:I do remember that Scorponok KO that was mentioned by this site a while ago regarding how it was difficult somewhat to discern it from the original, but it had easier ways to tell for it being a KO than in this scenario. I'm now more reluctant to buy from Lena here. I do watch her auctions periodically and I mean she has good/decent deals, but the fact it's KO is just... I always see KO having an inferior quality to the real thing. Even though that's not always true itself to a point. Just the big thing is I'm sure the QA stuff is not the same and less care involved in that.

I can confirm that the QA stuff is not the same. A Buzzsaw I got from Lena was missing a painted eye. I got my money back though and got to keep my illigitimate casettes.

Good on both accounts I guess. Frankly I'm not going to buy from Lena at this point. I don't want to chance it as I'm too afraid of getting taken for a ride. I might just go 3P for the "MP" style Megatron. I do feel some of those look better than the real MP to a point. Just maybe a bit too bulky, but the actual looks a bit too skinny itself.

I also got a few Decepticon insignia stickers lying around to slap on the chest in any case too. I did that with my G2 Megatron actually.

Tyrannacon wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Tyrannacon wrote:I do remember that Scorponok KO that was mentioned by this site a while ago regarding how it was difficult somewhat to discern it from the original, but it had easier ways to tell for it being a KO than in this scenario. I'm now more reluctant to buy from Lena here. I do watch her auctions periodically and I mean she has good/decent deals, but the fact it's KO is just... I always see KO having an inferior quality to the real thing. Even though that's not always true itself to a point. Just the big thing is I'm sure the QA stuff is not the same and less care involved in that.

I can confirm that the QA stuff is not the same. A Buzzsaw I got from Lena was missing a painted eye. I got my money back though and got to keep my illigitimate casettes.

Good on both accounts I guess. Frankly I'm not going to buy from Lena at this point. I don't want to chance it as I'm too afraid of getting taken for a ride. I might just go 3P for the "MP" style Megatron. I do feel some of those look better than the real MP to a point. Just maybe a bit too bulky, but the actual looks a bit too skinny itself.

I also got a few Decepticon insignia stickers lying around to slap on the chest in any case too. I did that with my G2 Megatron actually.

I cant really recomend any 3p megatrons either. I own appolyon and I dont like transforming him. he has a lot of flaws and a lot of QC problems too. And he has he same transformation as MP 05.

william-james88 wrote:

Tyrannacon wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Tyrannacon wrote:I do remember that Scorponok KO that was mentioned by this site a while ago regarding how it was difficult somewhat to discern it from the original, but it had easier ways to tell for it being a KO than in this scenario. I'm now more reluctant to buy from Lena here. I do watch her auctions periodically and I mean she has good/decent deals, but the fact it's KO is just... I always see KO having an inferior quality to the real thing. Even though that's not always true itself to a point. Just the big thing is I'm sure the QA stuff is not the same and less care involved in that.

I can confirm that the QA stuff is not the same. A Buzzsaw I got from Lena was missing a painted eye. I got my money back though and got to keep my illigitimate casettes.

Good on both accounts I guess. Frankly I'm not going to buy from Lena at this point. I don't want to chance it as I'm too afraid of getting taken for a ride. I might just go 3P for the "MP" style Megatron. I do feel some of those look better than the real MP to a point. Just maybe a bit too bulky, but the actual looks a bit too skinny itself.

I also got a few Decepticon insignia stickers lying around to slap on the chest in any case too. I did that with my G2 Megatron actually.

I cant really recomend any 3p megatrons either. I own appolyon and I dont like transforming him. he has a lot of flaws and a lot of QC problems too. And he has he same transformation as MP 05.

Was wondering about Mightron myself, but I'll keep poking around I guess in any case. Thanks.

Tyrannacon wrote:I do remember that Scorponok KO that was mentioned by this site a while ago regarding how it was difficult somewhat to discern it from the original, but it had easier ways to tell for it being a KO than in this scenario. I'm now more reluctant to buy from Lena here. I do watch her auctions periodically and I mean she has good/decent deals, but the fact it's KO is just... I always see KO having an inferior quality to the real thing. Even though that's not always true itself to a point. Just the big thing is I'm sure the QA stuff is not the same and less care involved in that.

Well to be completely honest, KOs are sometimes better than the original, improved in some ways. But sometimes the QC of KO toys is a mess. This is really some kind of lottery.

In the end, it really depends on what you are looking for. In my case I only collect originals, because one of the pleasures of collecting is to have the feeling that you have something real, not just a pile of crappy, cheap toys.

But if you just are looking for display toys, or you don't care about them being the real deal, then go for it.

I believe KOs are, in some way, a "good" thing. I know collectors who purchase the real toy for collection, and the KO for "toying" with it. My real complaint is about Lena and her kind who are selling fakes as real toys. Lena is probably one of the worse, because she makes use in some way of her good reputation to make money (I bid 100 dollars on this crappy MP-5 believing it was the real deal).

william-james88 wrote:

Pilgrim76 wrote:About your MP-24, I can't really tell. This is a toy I am planning to purchase soon, and I've seen plenty of KOs on ebay (advertised as such). I feel that for this one, I should probably look on BBTS.

For any international buyers, this is the best place to get MP Starsabre for a decent price:

http://jungle-scs.co.jp/sale_en/?page_i ... 1000042296

Its a japanese secondary seller, adn you can get it for cheaper if you choose an open box.

You may also consider Toyspark on ebay. He's chinese but reliable. I purchase most of my MPs from him when he has them.

He's cheap, but the trade off is the package, a bit weak (just 1 inch of styrofoam around the box). It is plenty enough for the car-sized MPs, but for bigger (like starsaber), your package may arrive damaged. If you don't care about the package, Toyspark is one good option.

Hey Guys, sorry..

I had to go to work. I will update this thread later tonight with pics of both my MP-05 Megatron box and figure for KO comparison, and I will update with pics of my MP-24 Star saber, and I have the ebay seller info for you to look at as well. I'm personally fine with the bot, it's arm joints are super tight, as apposed to some who say the TT version has loose joints that need tightening. The only problem with mine was the paint app under the eyes, and the slightly bent guns on the shoulders, which makes my V-star mode look like it's shooting the sky..

I may do a fix, and if I do, I may snap pics for future references if others run into the same issue. If I figure out how to fix them that is.

so i was skimming the comments mostly arguing and was wondering about the megs that cost $80
are those ones official or ko's

Bumblebee21 wrote:so i was skimming the comments mostly arguing and was wondering about the megs that cost $80
are those ones official or ko's

It all depends on what you consider a KO. If Takara doesnt know they are being sold and gets no money from them but they are all made from the same takara mold, is it a KO to you? Because thats what this is. Its the real toy, made by the same factory with no difference from the onces sold a while back. But it is made without Takara's knowing/approval.

william-james88 wrote:

Bumblebee21 wrote:so i was skimming the comments mostly arguing and was wondering about the megs that cost $80
are those ones official or ko's

It all depends on what you consider a KO. If Takara doesnt know they are being sold and gets no money from them but they are all made from the same takara mold, is it a KO to you? Because thats what this is. Its the real toy, made by the same factory with no difference from the onces sold a while back. But it is made without Takara's knowing/approval.

well whats the deal with the takasa tony kos. what are those.

the things wei jang bb7 and kbb do im not sure what to call tose since they are upgrading the mold.

Bumblebee21 wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Bumblebee21 wrote:so i was skimming the comments mostly arguing and was wondering about the megs that cost $80
are those ones official or ko's

It all depends on what you consider a KO. If Takara doesnt know they are being sold and gets no money from them but they are all made from the same takara mold, is it a KO to you? Because thats what this is. Its the real toy, made by the same factory with no difference from the onces sold a while back. But it is made without Takara's knowing/approval.

well whats the deal with the takasa tony kos. what are those.

the things wei jang bb7 and kbb do im not sure what to call tose since they are upgrading the mold.

Everything you just mentioned are KOs. A KO is the following: a copy of the toy made by reverse engineering a mold. That is what all those do. The 80$ Megatron is not that, its actually made by the official Takara mold. The mold it is made from belongs to Takara and is 100% real. Thereis 0 difference between the 80$ Megatron toy and the 150$ megatron toy people bought before.

william-james88 wrote:

Bumblebee21 wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Bumblebee21 wrote:so i was skimming the comments mostly arguing and was wondering about the megs that cost $80
are those ones official or ko's

It all depends on what you consider a KO. If Takara doesnt know they are being sold and gets no money from them but they are all made from the same takara mold, is it a KO to you? Because thats what this is. Its the real toy, made by the same factory with no difference from the onces sold a while back. But it is made without Takara's knowing/approval.

well whats the deal with the takasa tony kos. what are those.

the things wei jang bb7 and kbb do im not sure what to call tose since they are upgrading the mold.

Everything you just mentioned are KOs. A KO is the following: a copy of the toy made by reverse engineering a mold. That is what all those do. The 80$ Megatron is not that, its actually made by the official Takara mold. The mold it is made from belongs to Takara and is 100% real. Thereis 0 difference between the 80$ Megatron toy and the 150$ megatron toy people bought before.

okay.so the mp-25 ko that has rubber tires is an example.
but what about ones that are factory rejects but the are in a ko box.
but why would they be cheaper if they are the same

Bumblebee21 wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Bumblebee21 wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Bumblebee21 wrote:so i was skimming the comments mostly arguing and was wondering about the megs that cost $80
are those ones official or ko's

It all depends on what you consider a KO. If Takara doesnt know they are being sold and gets no money from them but they are all made from the same takara mold, is it a KO to you? Because thats what this is. Its the real toy, made by the same factory with no difference from the onces sold a while back. But it is made without Takara's knowing/approval.

well whats the deal with the takasa tony kos. what are those.

the things wei jang bb7 and kbb do im not sure what to call tose since they are upgrading the mold.

Everything you just mentioned are KOs. A KO is the following: a copy of the toy made by reverse engineering a mold. That is what all those do. The 80$ Megatron is not that, its actually made by the official Takara mold. The mold it is made from belongs to Takara and is 100% real. Thereis 0 difference between the 80$ Megatron toy and the 150$ megatron toy people bought before.

okay.so the mp-25 ko that has rubber tires is an example.
but what about ones that are factory rejects but the are in a ko box.
but why would they be cheaper if they are the same

Thy arent factory rejects, I thought they were once, but there are way to many for all of them to be rejects (plus, they dont have any flaws so the wouldnt have been rejected). What they are, are toys that the factory kept making using the official molds, without Takara knowing, and selling them behind Takara's back. They are very cheap, because the they arent sold by Takara but by the factory directly (or a seller with direct ties with the factory).

william-james88 wrote:Thy arent factory rejects, I thought they were once, but there are way to many for all of them to be rejects (plus, they dont have any flaws so the wouldnt have been rejected). What they are, are toys that the factory kept making using the official molds, without Takara knowing, and selling them behind Takara's back. They are very cheap, because the they arent sold by Takara but by the factory directly (or a seller with direct ties with the factory).

Things need to be clarified - once again - with facts.

So facts : These cheap MP-5 have box printings that are completely different from those on a legit box. Some chinese sellers also sell them as KO (I provided links to ebay auctions that, at the time, were listing KO MP-5. Didn't check if this is still the case, but a quick search in ebay should let you know). These 2 facts alone point toward them being COUNTERFEIT (at least) or KOs (at worst).

William-James claims that they are made with the same molds and are coming from the same factories as the originals have never been proven. It is not a certitude, just a belief. I am sorry to say that, but he should not do such claims without backing them with proofs. I am not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying that we can't say that so far. We are still missing an extensive comparison between a legit MP-5 and one of those cheap Megs to determine if they are from the same mold or not (and even with the same molds, the materials can be different).

Until then, if you want a real, legit MP-5, I strongly advise to stay away from the chinese resellers.

Pilgrim76 wrote:
William-James claims that they are made with the same molds and are coming from the same factories as the originals have never been proven. It is not a certitude, just a belief. I am sorry to say that, but he should not do such claims without backing them with proofs. I am not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying that we can't say that so far.

That means we can't say the oppostie either. Also, there is evidence that this seller does have ties to the factory that makes these toys (and has these molds) since they also sell other toys that have never been KO'd such as BH Dreadwing, Gen Trailbreaker, BH Starscream, Platinum 2016 Optimus, ect.

This has also influenced my logical conclusion that this Megatron is probably unauthorised but not a KO per classical definition.

The box is odd as **** though, I willa lways give you that

By the way, glad to see you again Pilgrim76, I will always admire your passion for this and I do hope you get your answer some day.

william-james88 wrote:
This has also influenced my logical conclusion that this Megatron is probably unauthorised but not a KO per classical definition.

The box is odd as **** though, I willa lways give you that

By the way, glad to see you again Pilgrim76, I will always admire your passion for this and I do hope you get your answer some day.

Well the notion of KO is really blurry. Look at some youtube reviews of KOs, most of the time no differences can be seen (e.g. the cassettrons) except some VERY tiny details like differences in color shades. Yet they are still called KOs... the only way to know for sure is a side by side comparison, until then, given the odd box, suspecting a KO is legitimate. For sure it is not legit/counterfeit.

Glad to see you too

"Sadly", I finally sold my MP-5 from Lena... So I will probably never get the end of it :/

william-james88 wrote:

Pilgrim76 wrote:
William-James claims that they are made with the same molds and are coming from the same factories as the originals have never been proven. It is not a certitude, just a belief. I am sorry to say that, but he should not do such claims without backing them with proofs. I am not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying that we can't say that so far.

That means we can't say the oppostie either. Also, there is evidence that this seller does have ties to the factory that makes these toys (and has these molds) since they also sell other toys that have never been KO'd such as BH Dreadwing, Gen Trailbreaker, BH Starscream, Platinum 2016 Optimus, ect.

This has also influenced my logical conclusion that this Megatron is probably unauthorised but not a KO per classical definition.

The box is odd as **** though, I willa lways give you that

By the way, glad to see you again Pilgrim76, I will always admire your passion for this and I do hope you get your answer some day.

wj88.you making a certified conclusion based on an assumption. That is more like a gut feeling lucky guess.

Unless you can show images of the products being manufactured using the main master molds you cannot make a conclusion that they are "unofficial" versions and not KOs.

If they are not made under Takara supervision, then they are KOs.

Merriam Websters Dictionary

"to make a knockoff of : copy, imitate <knocks off popular dress designs>"

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/knock--off

an unlicensed copy of something, especially fashion clothing, intended to be sold at a lower price than the original

We are all making assumptions. There is no proof that these are unofficial either. I just wrote what I thought and why. I don't see what is the problem here.

william-james88 wrote:We are all making assumptions. There is no proof that these are unofficial either. I just wrote what I thought and why. I don't see what is the problem here.

Just what I wanted to hear."Assumption" and or intelligent guesses.

Well here is my delema.
The mp-5 on the left is an official first edition Megatron from 07. The one on the right is a reissue of mp-5 that I had gotten off of bbts..
The mp-5 reissue I had gotten from bbts has a very dark box, no subtle Grey reflection on the fusion cannon.
I can clearly see his left hand on my first runs box, while on the reissue I can only see the pin.

The reissues feet are very loose, never staying like they should be while properly transformed and his right heel was bent out of shape a little. There was also alot of over spray of silver paint in the reissues arms and abs

Deathsaurus, you could be our life savor. Coyld you take another pic of those two boxes but with light shining on them, like a flash? I would like to see where Megatron's leg ends before it fades to black.

william-james88 wrote:Deathsaurus, you could be our life savor. Coyld you take another pic of those two boxes but with light shining on them, like a flash? I would like to see where Megatron's leg ends before it fades to black.

Here is how their legs fade

Here are more photos, but of the boxes bottoms.