The Energon Pub

[Grendel]

The philospher's forum was a lot better before all the politics and religion crap.

Honestly, if the only thing you can discuss is religion and politics, somethings wrong. Those are just 'easy' topics. When you run out of ideas, you know religion is a hot issue, you bring that up, incite debate quickly, or in this case, debate, flaming, some more debate and more flaming.

I missed the discussions on whether time travel could be done. How ghosts could exist. Where we(humanity/earth) would be several thousand years down the road. The progression of society, etc.

Now, that was fun.

But then all the religion topics ruined it.

yeah, me too there were some interesting threads, they just all got buried under the religion ones

[Autobot032]

I don't care that it's gone or not - but since the forum's been deleted, why keep a dead link on sidebar?

The forum still exists.
Just that it's been blocked off from viewing.
That's what Ryan said I think.

Nope. Gone. Completely.

Energon Pub Forum Index

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The forum you selected does not exist.

It's gone. Completely.

[Shadowman]

The philospher's forum was a lot better before all the politics and religion crap.

Honestly, if the only thing you can discuss is religion and politics, somethings wrong. Those are just 'easy' topics. When you run out of ideas, you know religion is a hot issue, you bring that up, incite debate quickly, or in this case, debate, flaming, some more debate and more flaming.

I missed the discussions on whether time travel could be done. How ghosts could exist. Where we(humanity/earth) would be several thousand years down the road. The progression of society, etc.

Now, that was fun.

But then all the religion topics ruined it.

yeah, me too there were some interesting threads, they just all got buried under the religion ones

I think the only thread about religion in there that DIDN'T completely piss everyone off, was my thread about the Force.

[Cyber Bishop]

The forum still exists.
Just that it's been blocked off from viewing.

Correct..

[Nightracer GT]

Okay, I take it back then.

We should bring back the PF with Religion not being allowed to be discussed.


I miss it already.

[Nemesis Cyberplex]

I went in there every once in a while, but usually didn't post. I really never liked the idea of a PF anyway...sure having such heated topics in GD could be problematic, but then again you didn't always have a sense of being overwhelmed when you wanted to say your peace on a given topic. I saw several threads that had something debated continually untill random poster come up, said a quick one-liner, & then everybody was satisfied with the results.....of course, that also lent to having new posters repeating already debunked arguments....

But to me, ever since it was started it forced topics to be shoved off to a corner where a select few would attack it, killing said topic to anyone but the PF regulars, who in turn would over-analyse it untill it burned to the ground or died from lack of interest. That is what turned me off from it. Honestly, I hope it stays gone, so some of those topics can be freed up for all forum users to enjoy in GD & not just the PF regulars to pick apart.

& BTW, I am not meaning to offend the PF regulars with any of this...some of you guys are pretty cool & have been sometimes helpful in backing up some of my arguments, or helping me to see errors in my own judgement, but this is just how I feel about the forum's existance in genereal.

[Senor Hugo]

Okay, I take it back then.

We should bring back the PF with Religion not being allowed to be discussed.


I miss it already.

Religion shouldn't be cut off from being discussed. It should be regulated.

Looking at all the religions, there are some very interesting stories behind them, and they have some damned good beliefs that could provide some interesting light on topics.

What should be cut off is the flat out flaming of religion and constant questioning of certain religions so people don't feel like they're being attacked constantly.

[Autobot032]

Okay, I take it back then.

We should bring back the PF with Religion not being allowed to be discussed.


I miss it already.

Religion shouldn't be cut off from being discussed. It should be regulated.

Looking at all the religions, there are some very interesting stories behind them, and they have some damned good beliefs that could provide some interesting light on topics.

What should be cut off is the flat out flaming of religion and constant questioning of certain religions so people don't feel like they're being attacked constantly.

Er...yeah...good luck with that.

[Senor Hugo]

Okay, I take it back then.

We should bring back the PF with Religion not being allowed to be discussed.


I miss it already.

Religion shouldn't be cut off from being discussed. It should be regulated.

Looking at all the religions, there are some very interesting stories behind them, and they have some damned good beliefs that could provide some interesting light on topics.

What should be cut off is the flat out flaming of religion and constant questioning of certain religions so people don't feel like they're being attacked constantly.

Er...yeah...good luck with that.

Well, it actually wouldn't be that hard to do. A thread giving the rules saying not to attack other religions.(The "how can X believe in Y" threads that were going on, were pretty much just attack threads)

A person who monitors the forum who is impartial on the matters to keep the peace.

and it should be good to go.

[skippytron]

i agree it should be allowed back minus topics about religion.

PF is a great addition to any type of website.
I think bringing it back whilst allowing topics about religion is risking having it scrapped forever.

[Professor Smooth]

If you can't or won't defend your beliefs, then they're obviously not very important to you and, thus, should not be above criticism.

[Senor Hugo]

And that would be the reason why the forum was shut down.

Who are you to say that someone's beliefs aren't important to them, just because they decide not to be pulled into another debate that does nothing but attack that person's beliefs in the first place?

I mean seriously. I've read through the threads, people did stand up for their beliefs, then they were attacked again, and again, and again, and again. So whats the point in trying to defend what you believe in, when you know you're just going to get berated for it right after.

A person's beliefs are their own. If they chose to defend those beliefs or not, does not lessen or cheapen those beliefs that they hold. To say that they do, well that just says more about you than it does about them.

[Autobot032]

If you can't or won't defend your beliefs, then they're obviously not very important to you and, thus, should not be above criticism.

*sighs* I could've bet a million. This is why I want the discussion of Religion removed from the Philosopher's Forum. I just knew, sooner or later, a comment like this would come from you. You just absolutely cannot let it go without stoking the fire just a little bit. You really *do* live for it, don't you?

We can defend our beliefs. You just tear down everything we said in response. (at least you think you've torn it down, when in actuality, you've abused us and our opinion with your harsh words and condescending tone.) We do it again, or answer a different question, you do it again.

Again and again and again. A vicious cycle that never ends. Even other posters past a certain point give up and move onto the next topic. You're like a dog with a bone, you just can't put it down and do something else. Oh no, we're going to answer to you for every single question you ask. You're gonna grill us until you're satisfied and even then, it's questionable as to whether or not you'll give it a rest.

You don't believe in God, you don't even like the idea of God. You don't like the fact that people believe in him because he doesn't fit *your* world. We get that. We got it the first time, we got it the umpteenth time and we got it now. Is there really any necessary point in continuing once you've gotten your point across? Like I said, we get it. You don't have to repeat and remind us all the time, but you do it anyway.

Others give it a rest, but you just have to push and prod and push some more. Is it *so* important that we see the world the way you do? I'm asking seriously, because I absolutely cannot figure it out. I've spoken to other Atheists/Non-Deists/Whatever you wish to be called, and after a certain point, we both said to each other "Look, you and I don't see eye to eye on this. It's better if we just shut up and let it drop." And then my friend (who's Athiest), his sister and a couple of other friends sat in the living room and watched a bunch of movies and ate pizza.

None of us could do that with you. We couldn't have a debate, then move onto movies and pizza, having a good time in the living room. You'd still sit there, even after everyone else was having a good time and moved on... and you'd just blurt out something like "JUST TELL ME WHY! YOU CAN'T GIVE ME AN ANSWER, CAN YOU?! I DIDN'T THINK SO! WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW?! HUH?! HUH?! TELL ME!!!"* Even the other people in the room would look at you and say "Dude! Give it up! We've already discussed this, CUT IT OUT!"

*= and while that's exaggerated a bit, that *is* how you come across in these discussions. Especially the Islam thread.

We Christians (and any other religious/spiritual folks) are tired of having to defend our beliefs and why we feel the way we do, from someone like you. You've shown that you're bitter and angry most of the time and you definitely let it out in your posts.

You berate us and belittle and talk down to us, and when that doesn't work, you just get outright offensive and personally insult us. (and mocking our Gods, our beliefs, both of which are extremely personal to us, is an insult.)

I don't know what your problem is, I couldn't even begin to come up with a diagnosis, but I'm sick and tired of it. Many are sick and tired of it. It's not your beliefs that bother us (I could care less whether or not you feel the same way I do, you're entitled to what you believe) it's your argumentative and confrontational attitude all the time. You're not even willing to give us the right to believe how we want. If you could take it away, you *would* and you'd be so smug and content about it.

Why? It doesn't affect you personally if harmless and kind old Miss Hattie hobbles on her walker to the corner Church every Sunday morning. If you think it does, then I'm sorry you feel that way, I'm not sure that any of us can help you correct it though. I'm not even sure you'd want us to, because I know some people thrive on such a thing. (Which is your prerogative, but it makes for misery for the rest of us and that isn't fair.)

*sighs* I did it again. I fell into that trap. -_- (sorry for the long post folks. I didn't mean to take up the whole page with this.)

If you can't or won't defend your beliefs, then they're obviously not very important to you and, thus, should not be above criticism.

And that would be the reason why the forum was shut down.

Who are you to say that someone's beliefs aren't important to them, just because they decide not to be pulled into another debate that does nothing but attack that person's beliefs in the first place?

I mean seriously. I've read through the threads, people did stand up for their beliefs, then they were attacked again, and again, and again, and again. So whats the point in trying to defend what you believe in, when you know you're just going to get berated for it right after.

A person's beliefs are their own. If they chose to defend those beliefs or not, does not lessen or cheapen those beliefs that they hold. To say that they do, well that just says more about you than it does about them.

I just want to say (and no, I'm not asking you to pick sides or anything, just wanted to say this) that I truly appreciate this post, Hugo. You didn't have to, but you did it anyway. He won't listen to me, or anyone who thinks like me. You're generally a voice of reason here, so he'll most likely take notice.

It's nice to have someone on the outside basically say "Cut it out."

So, thank you.

And yes, before anyone says it, I'm just as guilty of being passionate and opinionated and not knowing when to just shut up sometimes. I realize I too am at fault in some of this, I don't want people thinking I go around with an ego and telling myself that I'm perfect or something. I'm not. I grapple with being just okay, everyday.

[skippytron]

hmmm.

i naively guessed that this thread was going to be a chance to subtly convince the site owner that all here are responsible enough to have a Philosophers Forum back on the website.

[/i]

[Professor Smooth]

hmmm.

i naively guessed that this thread was going to be a chance to subtly convince the site owner that all here are responsible enough to have a Philosophers Forum back on the website.

[/i]

This was in question? Never. The only redeeming aspect of that forum was that it kept crap like this out of General Discussion. That's it.

Now on to Autobot023...

I get it. Believe me, I get it. You don't like having to defend your beliefs. That's fine. I wouldn't want to have to defend the belief that snakes used to be able to talk either. You have the freedom to use discretion when and where you post. If you have a problem with people asking questions about Christianity, Islam, or Pastafarianism, then use your freedom of choice by staying out of the discussion. I think I've made my views on religion crystal clear. You have done the same. The difference is that I want to discuss it. Obviously, other people agree with me. What we don't need people like you storming into the thread, throwing a tantrum like a petulant child, and derailing the thread. If you don't want to defend your point of view and can't play nicely while others are doing so, then go play in another thread. It's as simple as that.

[Autobot032]

hmmm.

i naively guessed that this thread was going to be a chance to subtly convince the site owner that all here are responsible enough to have a Philosophers Forum back on the website.

[/i]

This was in question? Never. The only redeeming aspect of that forum was that it kept crap like this out of General Discussion. That's it.

Now on to Autobot023...

I get it. Believe me, I get it. You don't like having to defend your beliefs. That's fine. I wouldn't want to have to defend the belief that snakes used to be able to talk either. You have the freedom to use discretion when and where you post. If you have a problem with people asking questions about Christianity, Islam, or Pastafarianism, then use your freedom of choice by staying out of the discussion. I think I've made my views on religion crystal clear. You have done the same. The difference is that I want to discuss it. Obviously, other people agree with me. What we don't need people like you storming into the thread, throwing a tantrum like a petulant child, and derailing the thread. If you don't want to defend your point of view and can't play nicely while others are doing so, then go play in another thread. It's as simple as that.

I'm not going to get into another battle with you, not like before.

BTW...that snake line was just a dig, and yes, I know what you're talking about. You can make your point without saying such things. That's one of the problems of dealing with you. Always an editorial comment and always the last word.

I have no problem staying out of religious/Religion discussion threads.

I do have a problem with the titles (which are usually inflammatory and you *know* it!) and when posted in such a manner, you know it's going to provoke and send people your way, just to defend their beliefs. (Which is, what you wanted all along.)

Basically, it's a trap, so you can use your little snare on someone and belittle and berate them. (Not only for your pleasure, but to show off. Problem is, not everyone agrees with your tactics. They might agree with your opinion, but your tactics...wow.)

And you don't discuss Religion. You try to tear it to shreds and make the believers uncomfortable. You could simply ask a question and wait for it to be answered. Once answered, you could say thank you or not even address it. No, you make editorial comments like you did at the top of this page because you just have to have your cake and eat it too. Problem is, you're getting the whole cake. You get your discussion, your questions, and then you belittle and condescend.

And you talk about playing nicely? You talk about me acting like a child?

How dare you. You're the one who *TEARS APART* people's personal opinions and antagonizes them for it! You haven't played nicely, and you've thrown around a tantrum or two.

You're not entirely at fault in situations like this one, but you don't bear enough of the burden of being at fault, either.

If you truly wanted to discuss Religions, and learn about them, you'd do one simple thing: Pick up the book and read it. It's not open to interpretation. The books mean what they say and say what they mean. No interpretation necessary. Then you could ask questions and be honestly curious and a discussion could form from there. I've been in plenty of religious discussions (online and off) and none of them (even with wildly varying viewpoints) have never degraded into a hatefest like the ones involving you. Oh sure, they got heated, people disagreed (they're going to), but no one got personal, no one mocked the other, etc.

I don't think you want to discuss Religion at all.

Because of how it degrades over the course of a few posts...this is exactly why I want Religion dropped from the list of topics in the Philosopher's Forum (if it even comes back). As I said before, there are so many other things we could talk about. Morals, ethics, science, nature, politics, literature, etc. None of it having to do with Religion, we just force it to.

I'm sick of this. -_-

[Burn]

I'm not going to get into another battle with you, not like before.

Then FFS man, stop replying!

This is exactly why I stayed out of the PF, because it was all just arguing. ARGUING! Not discussion, just straight out arguing.

And honestly, you say you're not going to get into another battle with Smooth and then you launch into that huge tirade?

Funny how you bitch at him for "abusing your opinion" yet you seem to be doing a good job of shoving yours down his throat.

Standing up for your opinion is one thing, but sometimes it's just better to walk away, because that's how arguments happen, people don't know how to walk away, and until someone learns that then the PF will never re-open.

[Autobot032]

I'm not going to get into another battle with you, not like before.

Then FFS man, stop replying!

This is exactly why I stayed out of the PF, because it was all just arguing. ARGUING! Not discussion, just straight
out arguing.

And honestly, you say you're not going to get into another battle with Smooth and then you launch into that huge tirade?

Funny how you bitch at him for "abusing your opinion" yet you seem to be doing a good job of shoving yours down his throat.

Standing up for your opinion is one thing, but sometimes it's just better to walk away, because that's how arguments happen, people don't know how to walk away, and until someone learns that then the PF will never re-open.

He does abuse my opinion. He mocks my beliefs, my God, and me. I do not call him names or anything like that. There's a big difference between his actions and mine.

I'm fine with people being Atheists (or whatever), that's their choice. Who am I to tell them they can't be what they want to be? They don't feel the same way I do, whoopity doo. Who cares? More power to 'em.

I don't get in people's faces and preach, I don't yell out (like a Southern Baptist Preacher "YOU'S A SINNAH BOY! YOU GON' GO TA HELL!" (because I wouldn't say such a terrible thing, nor would it be my place to, even *if* that happened to be the case. I don't hold the judgment cards, I couldn't begin to say where anyone's going after this life.) Yet he gets in peoples faces and tells them that they're foolish, ridiculous, etc.

I know he doesn't believe (and that's fine.)
He knows that I (and many others) do believe (and for him, that's not fine. And because of that..) he attacks it.

There is a difference.

Even when he doesn't have to (like the snake line), he *chooses* to. Tactics like that are what made Religion threads absolutely uncomfortable for some of us. We shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable to participate.

Last I checked, that's not a requirement.

As I said, I take full responsibility for my part, I know I should shut up when it comes to dealing with him (because it always ends in disaster) and I agree it turns into arguing, but how can it not when smarmy editorial comments (which weren't needed to carry on the conversation, mind you!) are thrown about? Both sides are guilty of it, but it's prevalent in his posts.

As I said, there *is* a difference.

[Professor Smooth]

Drop it. For the love of Allah, just drop it already!

[tequila stu]

ffs
take 2 of these

and stop throwing temper tantrums. sheesh.

[DesalationReborn]

I think this is a case of the internet being taken too seriously. If I don't like something, I usually just click to another page. Like Mkall's analogy with snakes. One person may not like discussing religion, but others do. The single person should not define the actions of the whole, just because they may get offended. Sticks and stones.

While that was a bit of a cheap shot from Prof Smooth, I think the key issue here is that he sees one person saying that there should be a total ban one the discussion of religion just because they personally don't want to. Either debate your personal opinions and beliefs, or don't, but don't stop those who want to do such in an impersonal matter.

Bad has happened in the past, but that's really been only the past 2 weeks or so from people taking things too personally, and then people reacting by pressing the issue. Regulation, not total restriction. These forums, including the Philosophers Forum, have been reasonably free for as long as I can remember, which is what I really think is what makes it great, and I'd hate to lose that for just a blimp in time in what has been a great running history.

[Me, Grimlock!]

Well, it actually wouldn't be that hard to do. A thread giving the rules saying not to attack other religions.(The "how can X believe in Y" threads that were going on, were pretty much just attack threads)

There was one. It was a sticky near the top.

[Air Commander Starscream]

There was too much attacking going on in the forum, and it was getting out of hand. I think it was a great decision to put it on the back burner till it can be monitored in a correct fashion.

And I think we all should just take a small step back here.

[Cyber Bishop]

There was too much attacking going on in the forum, and it was getting out of hand. I think it was a great decision to put it on the back burner till it can be monitored in a correct fashion.

And I think we all should just take a small step back here.

I said something almost the same a few pages ago.