The Energon Pub

Name_Violation wrote:RIAL- the line you are refering to is "I am a first generation product of vector sigma..." yes he says he's a first generation. he doesn't claim to be one of the first. Your analogy is closer to "I came in between 1 and 492nd in a race. its near the front."

first generation made by vector sigma, yes. The first transformer - never says.

and in shattered glass (technically the topic) there is no vector sigma. it has a different name, but i cant think of it.

Never said anything about THE first. I said ONE OF the first. (how many times have I had to repeat that now?)

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Saying "one of the first generation" and saying "one of the first tf's" are not the same thing.

The first is open to interpretation because we dont know how many were produced, the other is a "matter of fact" statement.

This does not make sence. We don't know how many were produced in either case. The only way we do know how many is in the comics when it's stated there were 13 (and maybe the movie but I haven't seen it yet.). But even if it's stated that there were 13 original Transformers thoughs 13 would be the first generation.

Rial Vestro wrote: One of the first Transformers and First Generation Transformer is the same thing.

Nonsense.

No what you're saying is nonsence. This makes perfect sence.

Rial Vestro wrote: The only way that claim would be fause is if I said he was THE first Transformer which I never did.

You said Alpha called himself an original transformer..........and he didnt.

He called himself a first generation product......theres no reason to assume that specificly means he was one of the first.

There is a reason. The word "FIRST". "One of the" FIRST and FIRST "generation product" both refer to a group of Transformers who would both come before any others. The only change that would make any difference would be a change that he was THE first because that would make him the one and only first transformer rather than one in a group of transformers.

As long as the statement specifies he belongs to a group of the first transformers it has the same meaning.

Allso Primus does not exsist in the G1 cartoon universe. Transformers were made by the Quintessons and given personalitys by Vector Sigma. (that was an attempt at filling a G1 Plot hole that is still a preddy deep hole considering the Dinobots.)

Rial Vestro wrote:He did in fact describe himself as such. I even posted a video link earlier showing him saying that he was a first generation Transformer.

Which is not describing himself as "on of the first tf's".

First generation in a product line does not mean one of the first from the manufacture.

You're not makeing sence again. How does being one of the first = to not one of the first. Both statements describe a group of the first Transformers, both statements have the same meaning. The only statement that would be wrong would be to describe him as a single first rather than a member of the first group.

Rial Vestro wrote: And if he is as you say "far from being one of the first" then he is not a first generation transformer.

Nonsense.

You have no concept about manufacturing goods and retail sales.

And remember.......thats what the TF's were originally.

The first Generation would have consisted of millions of units created for retail sale.

Not to mention the fact that even before that first generation was put into production a small amount of prototypes would have been created as "promos" and displays models.

Don't need any concept of manufacturing. I'm just looking at the structure of the sentence which can be broken down to "Member of the first group".

Now about your last statement, how do we know that the Prototypes which would be products of the Quintessons, were ever given life by Vector Sigma? Alpha Trion says that he is a first generation product of Vector Sigma but Vector Sigma does not not create transformers it only gives them personalitys. The Quintessons built them. So thinking of them as comming off the Quintesson assembly line really has little to do with Vector Sigma. The prototypes could have been lifeless drones like the Stunticons stated out as before Megatron took them to Vector Sigma. And even if they were brought to life Vector Sigma would not have built them.

So either both statements can be fact (which they are) or both can be left up for debate (which they're not.) The only statement that isn't up for debate is the original 13 who don't even exsist in the cartoon universe. But IF THEY DID there's enough reason to speculate that Alpha Trion could be one of them.

Rial Vestro wrote:This does not make sence.

Sure it does.

Rial Vestro wrote: We don't know how many were produced in either case.

Which is exactly the reason why your interpretation of the line is incorrect.

Rial Vestro wrote: The only way we do know how many is in the comics when it's stated there were 13 (and maybe the movie but I haven't seen it yet.). But even if it's stated that there were 13 original Transformers thoughs 13 would be the first generation.

I wouldnt go that far.

To begin with trying to find rhythm between the comic and the toon is a bit difficult.

But if there were a 13 in the toon universe theres no reason to assume the first 13 came about because of Vector Sigma.

And if the Quints created the first 13 theres also no reason to assume they were created by the same means as the transformers to follow.

They could have created 13 prototypes and then created vector sigma to mass produce.

Rial Vestro wrote:No what you're saying is nonsence. This makes perfect sence.

No what your saying is nonsense.....like always.

Rial Vestro wrote:There is a reason. The word "FIRST". "One of the" FIRST and FIRST "generation product" both refer to a group of Transformers who would both come before any others. The only change that would make any difference would be a change that he was THE first because that would make him the one and only first transformer rather than one in a group of transformers.

As long as the statement specifies he belongs to a group of the first transformers it has the same meaning.

Again........Nonsense.

Example:
"I have a first generation home pc in my basement...........but its hardly on of the first that came off the assembly line".

Same annlogy

Rial Vestro wrote:Allso Primus does not exsist in the G1 cartoon universe. Transformers were made by the Quintessons and given personalitys by Vector Sigma. (that was an attempt at filling a G1 Plot hole that is still a preddy deep hole considering the Dinobots.)

A] its not that big of a plot hole
B] theres room for Primus in the G1 toon universe if you think about it.

Rial Vestro wrote:
You're not makeing sence again. How does being one of the first = to not one of the first.

First generation of product off a mass production program does not = one of the first to be created.

Rial Vestro wrote:Don't need any concept of manufacturing.

For the argument your in you do need that kind of concept thinking.

Rial Vestro wrote: I'm just looking at the structure of the sentence which can be broken down to "Member of the first group".

And thats why you keep failing.

Rial Vestro wrote:Now about your last statement, how do we know that the Prototypes which would be products of the Quintessons, were ever given life by Vector Sigma? Alpha Trion says that he is a first generation product of Vector Sigma but Vector Sigma does not not create transformers it only gives them personalitys. The Quintessons built them. So thinking of them as comming off the Quintesson assembly line really has little to do with Vector Sigma. The prototypes could have been lifeless drones like the Stunticons stated out as before Megatron took them to Vector Sigma. And even if they were brought to life Vector Sigma would not have built them.

Now your starting to use your head.

Now think further............Alpha says hes a first generation product of VS.

But he does not say hes one of the first tf's.

He could very well be the first every programed by VS but it wouldnt mean he was the first TF built.

The Quints could have built millions before they created VS to do the programing.Which they did BTW.

Rial Vestro wrote:
So either both statements can be fact (which they are) or both can be left up for debate (which they're not.) The only statement that isn't up for debate is the original 13 who don't even exsist in the cartoon universe. But IF THEY DID there's enough reason to speculate that Alpha Trion could be one of them.

Speculate yes.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote: We don't know how many were produced in either case.

Which is exactly the reason why your interpretation of the line is incorrect.

No what doesn't make sence is that you provided an alternate way of fraising it that suposidly would make more sence and exclaimed that my way didn't make sence because we didn't know how many when we didn't know how many were in your case either.

Or I've horribly missread what you wrote earlier.

Rial Vestro wrote: The only way we do know how many is in the comics when it's stated there were 13 (and maybe the movie but I haven't seen it yet.). But even if it's stated that there were 13 original Transformers thoughs 13 would be the first generation.

I wouldnt go that far.

To begin with trying to find rhythm between the comic and the toon is a bit difficult.

Agreed but I'm really not trying to. I just started out by pointing out if someone was to try and combine the two there's enough circumstantial evidence in the cartoon to at least speculate that Alpha Trion could be one of the 13 in the comic. It might be a bit of a stretch but hey that's what happens when you try to combine different universe togeather.

But if there were a 13 in the toon universe theres no reason to assume the first 13 came about because of Vector Sigma.

This is one I'm not sure how to comment on because I simply don't know enough about the comics to make any sort of accurate judgement here. Just speaking from a show perspective if Vector Sigma gives all Transformers life than the original 13 if they had exsisted in the cartoon would have to come from Vector Sigma or they'd just be lifeless drones.

And I'm ignoreing that the Dinobots were made without Vector Sigma because that's just a big plot hole that I really don't want to think about right now.

And if the Quints created the first 13 theres also no reason to assume they were created by the same means as the transformers to follow.

They could have created 13 prototypes and then created vector sigma to mass produce.

But again, as far as the cartoon showed Vector Sigma doesn't "produce" anything, it only seems to give life to robots that have allready been constructed by other means. Vector Sigma was used to give life to the Stunticons and the Airealbots not to construct them.

Rial Vestro wrote:There is a reason. The word "FIRST". "One of the" FIRST and FIRST "generation product" both refer to a group of Transformers who would both come before any others. The only change that would make any difference would be a change that he was THE first because that would make him the one and only first transformer rather than one in a group of transformers.

As long as the statement specifies he belongs to a group of the first transformers it has the same meaning.

Again........Nonsense.

Example:
"I have a first generation home pc in my basement...........but its hardly on of the first that came off the assembly line".

Same annlogy

Not really the same annlogy. You're still thinking of Vector Sigma as some sort of assembly line but VS was never shown to have built ANY of the Transformers, only to give them personalitys.

Rial Vestro wrote:Allso Primus does not exsist in the G1 cartoon universe. Transformers were made by the Quintessons and given personalitys by Vector Sigma. (that was an attempt at filling a G1 Plot hole that is still a preddy deep hole considering the Dinobots.)

A] its not that big of a plot hole
B] theres room for Primus in the G1 toon universe if you think about it.

A. The Dinobots never needed Vector Sigma to gain individual personalitys so why did they sudenly need Vector Sigma for the Stunticons and Airealbots? You don't call that a big plot hole?

B. You could stick him in there but I think it would just add to the allready exsisting plot hole mess. Transformers don't need to come from Quintessons AND Primus I think it's better if you just belive one or the other not both.

Rial Vestro wrote:Don't need any concept of manufacturing.

For the argument your in you do need that kind of concept thinking.

Not really because as I've mentioned several times before, Vector Sigma was never shown to have actully created any of the Transformers, only to give them personalitys. Hence we're not talking about an assembly line. We're talking about linage.

Rial Vestro wrote:Now about your last statement, how do we know that the Prototypes which would be products of the Quintessons, were ever given life by Vector Sigma? Alpha Trion says that he is a first generation product of Vector Sigma but Vector Sigma does not not create transformers it only gives them personalitys. The Quintessons built them. So thinking of them as comming off the Quintesson assembly line really has little to do with Vector Sigma. The prototypes could have been lifeless drones like the Stunticons stated out as before Megatron took them to Vector Sigma. And even if they were brought to life Vector Sigma would not have built them.

Now your starting to use your head.

Now think further............Alpha says hes a first generation product of VS.

But he does not say hes one of the first tf's.

He could very well be the first every programed by VS but it wouldnt mean he was the first TF built.

The Quints could have built millions before they created VS to do the programing.Which they did BTW.

OK but what does any of that have to do with anything?

If you're includeing the drones that would have been created before Vector Sigma as Transformers that doesn't really blend well with the comic sence that would make the original 13 a bunch of drones.

Now if someone really wanted to blend cartoon and comic continuity I guess it could be said that either Primus created Vector Sigma or is Vector Sigma and the original 13 would be the first 13 to be given life. Whatever drones the Quintessons had before Vector Sigma are irrelivant. Drones are not Transformers.

Even after Transformers became sentiant there are still a few lifeless drones on Cybertron. Some of these drones have even been seen in episodes of G1, BW(Includeing II and Neo when I say BW), and BM.

To put it simply includeing drones as part of the Transformers race would be the equivilant of includeing dirt as part of the human race.

Rial Vestro wrote:So either both statements can be fact (which they are) or both can be left up for debate (which they're not.) The only statement that isn't up for debate is the original 13 who don't even exsist in the cartoon universe. But IF THEY DID there's enough reason to speculate that Alpha Trion could be one of them.

Speculate yes.

Good glad we agree.

Rial Vestro wrote:No what doesn't make sence is that you provided an alternate way of fraising it that suposidly would make more sence and exclaimed that my way didn't make sence because we didn't know how many when we didn't know how many were in your case either.

Or I've horribly missread what you wrote earlier.

I'm not sure what you mean.

But I'm going to try to break this down.

Your original claim was that Alpha described himself as "one of the original TF's"

I said "thats not exactly right"

What you then provided ,and is true, is that Alpha claimed to be a "first generation product of Vector Sigma"

But that does not necessarily make him one of the first transformers.

Rial Vestro wrote:Agreed but I'm really not trying to. I just started out by pointing out if someone was to try and combine the two there's enough circumstantial evidence in the cartoon to at least speculate that Alpha Trion could be one of the 13 in the comic. It might be a bit of a stretch but hey that's what happens when you try to combine different universe togeather.

I'm sorry but you are making no sence at all.

NO AMOUNT what so ever of circumstantial evidence from the cartoon could ever be used to even speculate that Alpha Trion could be one of the 13 in the comic.

Circumstantial evidence from the cartoon can only server the cartoon.

Circumstantial evidence from the comic can only serve the comic.

Now "IF" he is proven one of the 13 in either you might have a SLIGHT point but not till then.

There isint even any circumstantial evidence in the cartoon to suggest he's one of the first 13.

More on this later......

Rial Vestro wrote:This is one I'm not sure how to comment on because I simply don't know enough about the comics to make any sort of accurate judgement here. Just speaking from a show perspective if Vector Sigma gives all Transformers life than the original 13 if they had exsisted in the cartoon would have to come from Vector Sigma or they'd just be lifeless drones.

Not necessarily.

Rial Vestro wrote:
And I'm ignoreing that the Dinobots were made without Vector Sigma because that's just a big plot hole that I really don't want to think about right now.

And as I said before........its not that big of a plot hole when you think about it.

Rial Vestro wrote:But again, as far as the cartoon showed Vector Sigma doesn't "produce" anything, it only seems to give life to robots that have allready been constructed by other means. Vector Sigma was used to give life to the Stunticons and the Airealbots not to construct them.

You seem to be agreeing with me.

Try to think about it.

Vector Sigma was created to serve as part of a mass production network.

It was created to program. large numbers of robots, with life.But the Quints would have already known how to program life before they created VS.

So just like any other retail venture, the Quints created a small number of prototypes and program them for life. Maybe 13 maybe more but these prototypes are the first of the race.The Quints market the goods, get investors or buyers and put the project into mass production.

Vector Sigma is created to speed up production and programing.Alpha trion is among the first generation of robots programed by VG but he is not one of the first of his race.

Rial Vestro wrote:Not really the same annlogy. You're still thinking of Vector Sigma as some sort of assembly line but VS was never shown to have built ANY of the Transformers, only to give them personalitys.

It is the same analogy because VS is part of a mass production network.

Yes it gave TF's personalities,but it did so in numbers.In both cases we saw it programed 6 different personaloties at the same time.

Theres no reason to assume there was much of a limit to how many it could do at once.

Which means VS was created to give personalities to large numbers of robots at one time.

Which means VS was part of the mass production network of creating robots.

Rial Vestro wrote:A. The Dinobots never needed Vector Sigma to gain individual personalitys so why did they sudenly need Vector Sigma for the Stunticons and Airealbots? You don't call that a big plot hole?

No its not.

Vector Sigma programed TF's for life.

Key word is "programed".

Wheeljack thought he was smart enough to be able to program the Dino's with life, a lot of mad scientist think there smart enough to do anything.

Obviously Wheeljack wasnt smart enough because the Dinos arent all that bright......must be missing some "key programing".

No one on the Decepticon team was smart enough to program life hence the need for VS in the Stunticon case.

The Airalbots were created as a last resort so theres no need to reply.

Furthermore when Grimlock gained "Super Intelligence" he was smart enough to program the Technobots with life.

Rial Vestro wrote:B. You could stick him in there but I think it would just add to the allready exsisting plot hole mess. Transformers don't need to come from Quintessons AND Primus I think it's better if you just belive one or the other not both.

I think it actually fixxes some of the issues but....to each his own.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Not really because as I've mentioned several times before, Vector Sigma was never shown to have actully created any of the Transformers, only to give them personalitys. Hence we're not talking about an assembly line. We're talking about linage.

Yes really because as I've mentioned, Vector Sigma was shown to be part of the mass production network which was the factory of Cybertron.

Hence we not talking about linage, We're talking about a major part in an assembly line.

Rial Vestro wrote:
OK but what does any of that have to do with anything?

It proves Alpha wasnt one of the first of his race.

Rial Vestro wrote:
If you're includeing the drones that would have been created before Vector Sigma as Transformers that doesn't really blend well with the comic sence that would make the original 13 a bunch of drones.

I dont recall saying that they were drones.

Fact is the Quints programed VS to do the job it did.

The prototypes would have been given personalities by the Quints on a "1 by 1" bases.Then the Quints created Vector Sigma to mass program other robots.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Now if someone really wanted to blend cartoon and comic continuity I guess it could be said that either Primus created Vector Sigma or is Vector Sigma and the original 13 would be the first 13 to be given life. Whatever drones the Quintessons had before Vector Sigma are irrelivant. Drones are not Transformers.

The way I see it the best way to explain it is as follows.

Primus Unicron fight.

Get stuck as planets.

Primus creates the 13 to help stop Unicrons return.

The Fallen turns in the final battle, and in doing so Primus and the 13 are shut down.

Many [millions?] of years later the Quints show up on the scene, see what remains of the 13 and decide to make a factory.

They find and manipulate Primus's core into Vector Sigma.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:Agreed but I'm really not trying to. I just started out by pointing out if someone was to try and combine the two there's enough circumstantial evidence in the cartoon to at least speculate that Alpha Trion could be one of the 13 in the comic. It might be a bit of a stretch but hey that's what happens when you try to combine different universe togeather.

I'm sorry but you are making no sence at all.

NO AMOUNT what so ever of circumstantial evidence from the cartoon could ever be used to even speculate that Alpha Trion could be one of the 13 in the comic.

Circumstantial evidence from the cartoon can only server the cartoon.

Circumstantial evidence from the comic can only serve the comic.

Now "IF" he is proven one of the 13 in either you might have a SLIGHT point but not till then.

There isint even any circumstantial evidence in the cartoon to suggest he's one of the first 13.

More on this later......

That's a matter of opinion unfortunatly. The story lines don't match up between cartoon and comic but they're both still part of the G1 continuity. There are a few episodes of the cartoon that don't even make sence with other episodes to keep the continuity straight so I belive there are more than just cartoon and comic universes.

Anyway, if someone wants to mix continuitys and use something from the cartoon to exsplain the comic there's not reason they shouldn't and it's probly alot easier trying to mix cartoon and comic of both G1 than to mix G1 with another continuity entirely.

Rial Vestro wrote:But again, as far as the cartoon showed Vector Sigma doesn't "produce" anything, it only seems to give life to robots that have allready been constructed by other means. Vector Sigma was used to give life to the Stunticons and the Airealbots not to construct them.

You seem to be agreeing with me.

Try to think about it.

Vector Sigma was created to serve as part of a mass production network.

It was created to program. large numbers of robots, with life.But the Quints would have already known how to program life before they created VS.

So just like any other retail venture, the Quints created a small number of prototypes and program them for life. Maybe 13 maybe more but these prototypes are the first of the race.The Quints market the goods, get investors or buyers and put the project into mass production.

Vector Sigma is created to speed up production and programing.Alpha trion is among the first generation of robots programed by VG but he is not one of the first of his race.

That's the first thing you've said that made sence. Except that I don't think Vector Sigma was a creation of the Quintessons. Vector Sigma along with the Matrix are objects that I don't see the Quintessons haveing any real use for and their origins were never said. The way Vector Sigma talks when first activated it even sounds as though Vector Sigma was on Cybertron LONG before the Quintesson's turned it into a manurfacturing planet. The line "Before Cybertron was, I was."

To put it another way, would you want to build drones programed for spicific tasks or would you build robots with all different unique personalitys like the Transformers. I would think any computer the Quints would make for programing would fall under the first catigory not the second.

Rial Vestro wrote:Not really the same annlogy. You're still thinking of Vector Sigma as some sort of assembly line but VS was never shown to have built ANY of the Transformers, only to give them personalitys.

It is the same analogy because VS is part of a mass production network.

Yes it gave TF's personalities,but it did so in numbers.In both cases we saw it programed 6 different personaloties at the same time.

Theres no reason to assume there was much of a limit to how many it could do at once.

Which means VS was created to give personalities to large numbers of robots at one time.

Which means VS was part of the mass production network of creating robots.

Not really. I don't see any reason to even belive the Quintessons built Vector Sigma let alone to belive that VS has anything at all to do with mass production.

If they really wanted a mass production programming computer I would think they'd design a computer that could program functions into robots not individual sentiant personalitys.

Vector Sigma's dialog as it's activated would sugest that it has exsisted on Cybertron LONG before the Quintessons took it over.

Rial Vestro wrote:A. The Dinobots never needed Vector Sigma to gain individual personalitys so why did they sudenly need Vector Sigma for the Stunticons and Airealbots? You don't call that a big plot hole?

No its not.

Vector Sigma programed TF's for life.

Key word is "programed".

Wheeljack thought he was smart enough to be able to program the Dino's with life, a lot of mad scientist think there smart enough to do anything.

Obviously Wheeljack wasnt smart enough because the Dinos arent all that bright......must be missing some "key programing".

No one on the Decepticon team was smart enough to program life hence the need for VS in the Stunticon case.

The Airalbots were created as a last resort so theres no need to reply.

Furthermore when Grimlock gained "Super Intelligence" he was smart enough to program the Technobots with life.

Wheeljack programed them that way intentinally. The whole reason for creating them was that he wanted to make Dinosaur transformers and made them as smart as real dinosaurs which turned out to be a verry bad idea.

As for the Technobots, they again were brought to life without Victor Sigma but didn't Grimlock simply download his super inteligence into Computron?

Rial Vestro wrote:Not really because as I've mentioned several times before, Vector Sigma was never shown to have actully created any of the Transformers, only to give them personalitys. Hence we're not talking about an assembly line. We're talking about linage.

Yes really because as I've mentioned, Vector Sigma was shown to be part of the mass production network which was the factory of Cybertron.

Hence we not talking about linage, We're talking about a major part in an assembly line.

Vector Sigma was shown to be no such thing. As I've stated several times allready Vector Sigma's dialog would sugest that it was allready on Cybertron BEFORE the Quintessons and if it was made by them to simply be part of a mass production network then it would function to give multiple robots simple functions not individual personality programming.

What I mean by functions is that in the case of the Decepticons who were gladiator robots, they'd all be programed for combat and nothing more. Autobots could be programed for other things. Maybe they could mass produce robots who are all programmed to be butlers and maids around the Quint's houses. But there'd be no need for robots with personalitys. Why have an individually thinking robot when it's just as easy to inslave some other organic race and accomplish the same thing. The whole point of robots is that they can be programed to make them easier to controll but if they're individually programed with sentiant personalitys they're no easier than any group of organics. It allows the robots to think for themselfs and not just follow whatever their function is ment to be.

Take Starscream for example. Sence his backround with Skyfire I think of him as originally being a decendent of the consummer goods line but later on joining the gladiator decendents.

Fact is the Quints programed VS to do the job it did.

That's not a fact, that's an assumetion.

There was never any sort of origin given for the exsistance of Vector Sigma or the Matrix and I don't really understand why the Quints would create either of them.

The prototypes would have been given personalities by the Quints on a "1 by 1" bases.Then the Quints created Vector Sigma to mass program other robots.

Yeah except that the Quints would have programed their robots to be drones not individual thinking beings.

Look at the Sharkticons for an example. Not a one of them stands out abouve the others. They're all programed with verry simple programming not individual personailtys.

Rial Vestro wrote:That's a matter of opinion unfortunatly.

No thats a matter of fact.

Rial Vestro wrote: The story lines don't match up between cartoon and comic but they're both still part of the G1 continuity.

They are 2 serprate G1 continuities.

As a matter of fact G1 has at least 5 different ongoing continuities.

Marvel US comic
Marvel UK comic
Toy bios continuity
Cartoon continuity
Japanese cartoon\manga continuity

There were other "sub-continuities" but I wont go there.

Rial Vestro wrote: There are a few episodes of the cartoon that don't even make sence with other episodes to keep the continuity straight so I belive there are more than just cartoon and comic universes.

We've gone there before.

The "so called" contradictions arent all that contradicting to begin with.

Rial Vestro wrote:
That's the first thing you've said that made sence.

No...everything I said made sence.

Your mind was just closed to the idea.

Rial Vestro wrote: Except that I don't think Vector Sigma was a creation of the Quintessons. Vector Sigma along with the Matrix are objects that I don't see the Quintessons haveing any real use for and their origins were never said. The way Vector Sigma talks when first activated it even sounds as though Vector Sigma was on Cybertron LONG before the Quintesson's turned it into a manurfacturing planet. The line "Before Cybertron was, I was."

To put it another way, would you want to build drones programed for spicific tasks or would you build robots with all different unique personalitys like the Transformers. I would think any computer the Quints would make for programing would fall under the first catigory not the second.

Heres the issue.

The way I see it the Quints took something they found on Cybertron and corupted it into a factory.

The found some primal life giving force....Call it Primus or what ever you want, but the Quints took what they found and rebuilt it into Vector Sigma.

The different personalities was a bit out of their control, it was the sources way of excaping the Quints grip.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Not really. I don't see any reason to even belive the Quintessons built Vector Sigma let alone to belive that VS has anything at all to do with mass production.

Then your blind to a few points.

A]Durring the history lesson given by the Matrix we are told that it was the Quints that devised a way to program life into their robots.

B] Vector Sigma can do so in large numbers.

C] we were told Cybertron was a factory.

The 3 of those points adds up to Vector Sigma being part of the mass production network.

Rial Vestro wrote:If they really wanted a mass production programming computer I would think they'd design a computer that could program functions into robots not individual sentiant personalitys.

I dont even see why you would think that would be more logical.

Rial Vestro wrote:Wheeljack programed them that way intentinally. The whole reason for creating them was that he wanted to make Dinosaur transformers and made them as smart as real dinosaurs which turned out to be a verry bad idea.

Nonsense.

He programed them like that because he couldnt really do much better.He even tried to enhance there brains near the end of the episode but could only get so far.

Rial Vestro wrote:As for the Technobots, they again were brought to life without Victor Sigma but didn't Grimlock simply download his super inteligence into Computron?

What does that have to do with it???

Each member of the team had intelligence and life programed into them by Grimlock before he transferred his intelligence.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Vector Sigma was shown to be no such thing.

Vector Sigma was showen to be exactly that.

Rial Vestro wrote: As I've stated several times allready Vector Sigma's dialog would sugest that it was allready on Cybertron BEFORE the Quintessons

Actully no.

The dialog only suggest that Vegtor Sigma was older then Cybertron.

That doesnt mean that the Quints didnt bring Vector Sigma to Cybertron.

Or that as I suggest above, the Quints corrupted something they found on Cybertron into part of the mass production network....much like we do rivers and water ways near our mass production networks.

Rial Vestro wrote: and if it was made by them to simply be part of a mass production network then it would function to give multiple robots simple functions not individual personality programming.

This just isint a logical argument.

I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

The way I see it its a 50/50 crap shoot.

Rial Vestro wrote:
What I mean by functions is that in the case of the Decepticons who were gladiator robots, they'd all be programed for combat and nothing more. Autobots could be programed for other things. Maybe they could mass produce robots who are all programmed to be butlers and maids around the Quint's houses. But there'd be no need for robots with personalitys.

You just have a poor imagination.

Gladiator robots with out any desire for revenge ot to hurt the other wouldnt be fun to watch for long.

There would be no feeling to the fights, no cunning, no risk, no reason for the viewer to become vested.

Personaloties makes a great difference.

And remember, they were being sold as merchandise.Both lines.If your an alien race buying robots as slaves to fight your wars your going to want your slaves to want to fight the enemy, to hate the enemy and to reconise they are being treated fairly well.......again personaloties make that possible.

And the same can be said about the "butller" class of robots.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Take Starscream for example. Sence his backround with Skyfire I think of him as originally being a decendent of the consummer goods line but later on joining the gladiator decendents.

I dont agree.

Rial Vestro wrote:That's not a fact, that's an assumetion.

There was never any sort of origin given for the exsistance of Vector Sigma or the Matrix and I don't really understand why the Quints would create either of them.

No its more of a fact.

Whats not a fact is its origin.But its self evident that Vector Sigma was used to mass program robots for the Quints.

Rial Vestro wrote:Yeah except that the Quints would have programed their robots to be drones not individual thinking beings.

Theres no reason to assume that.

Not even the later creations of the Quints ,The Sharkticons and the Aligatorcons" were drones.Granted they werent that bright but they werent drones.

No sorry, but for what ever reason, The Quints obviously felt it was a benifit to give their creations intelligence and personalities

Rial Vestro wrote:
Look at the Sharkticons for an example. Not a one of them stands out abouve the others. They're all programed with verry simple programming not individual personailtys.

And yet they werent drones.

They were kept dump to not relieve the same mistakjes but they still had limited intelegence.

And some of the Alicatorcons were much smartter.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:That's the first thing you've said that made sence.

No...everything I said made sence.

Your mind was just closed to the idea.

No just the way you were phraising your posts simply didn't make sence and read as contridictions till you exsplained it that way.

Rial Vestro wrote: Except that I don't think Vector Sigma was a creation of the Quintessons. Vector Sigma along with the Matrix are objects that I don't see the Quintessons haveing any real use for and their origins were never said. The way Vector Sigma talks when first activated it even sounds as though Vector Sigma was on Cybertron LONG before the Quintesson's turned it into a manurfacturing planet. The line "Before Cybertron was, I was."

To put it another way, would you want to build drones programed for spicific tasks or would you build robots with all different unique personalitys like the Transformers. I would think any computer the Quints would make for programing would fall under the first catigory not the second.

Heres the issue.

The way I see it the Quints took something they found on Cybertron and corupted it into a factory.

The found some primal life giving force....Call it Primus or what ever you want, but the Quints took what they found and rebuilt it into Vector Sigma.

The different personalities was a bit out of their control, it was the sources way of excaping the Quints grip.

That's a nice possible theory. One I don't totally agree with but it makes sence and I really can't even think of an alternate exsplination for it.

Rial Vestro wrote:Not really. I don't see any reason to even belive the Quintessons built Vector Sigma let alone to belive that VS has anything at all to do with mass production.

Then your blind to a few points.

A]Durring the history lesson given by the Matrix we are told that it was the Quints that devised a way to program life into their robots.

B] Vector Sigma can do so in large numbers.

C] we were told Cybertron was a factory.

The 3 of those points adds up to Vector Sigma being part of the mass production network.

A. I don't have time right now, I have to type notes for work and get to bed but I know the episode you're talking about I'll have to rewatch it again later.

B. Which has little to do with mass production of products. As I've allready pointed out when things are "mass produced" they are all produced to opperate the same fuctions. No computer straight out of the factory is going to be any different than any other computer of the same model from the same factory. Owners can individually reprogram and modify their computers to do different things but right out of the factory they're all the same.

C. Yes, it was.

Out of these 3 things you seem to think I'm blind to only the first one even has a possibility of being right.

Rial Vestro wrote:If they really wanted a mass production programming computer I would think they'd design a computer that could program functions into robots not individual sentiant personalitys.

I dont even see why you would think that would be more logical.

Because, it's far less likely that a drone programed to clean your house will be dissobediant and try to overthrow it's creator/owner than for a fully self aware robot.

Basically haveing organic slaves could have accoplished the same goal as the setiant robots and they wouldn't cost as much sence there's no manufacturing involved and they're not as capable to overtrow their masters as the robots were.

There are alot of reasons that drones are just safer to have around than sentiant robots.

Rial Vestro wrote:Wheeljack programed them that way intentinally. The whole reason for creating them was that he wanted to make Dinosaur transformers and made them as smart as real dinosaurs which turned out to be a verry bad idea.

Nonsense.

He programed them like that because he couldnt really do much better.He even tried to enhance there brains near the end of the episode but could only get so far.

He tried to enhance their brains after realizing what a stupid idea it was to make them like real Dinosaurs. Dr.Smoove even made fun of this in the spoof version.

Rial Vestro wrote:As for the Technobots, they again were brought to life without Victor Sigma but didn't Grimlock simply download his super inteligence into Computron?

What does that have to do with it???

Each member of the team had intelligence and life programed into them by Grimlock before he transferred his intelligence.

I probly need to watch that episode again too. I seem to remember that Computron was shown first and then split apart only after Grimlock downloaded his inteligence into them.

Rial Vestro wrote: As I've stated several times allready Vector Sigma's dialog would sugest that it was allready on Cybertron BEFORE the Quintessons

Actully no.

The dialog only suggest that Vegtor Sigma was older then Cybertron.

That doesnt mean that the Quints didnt bring Vector Sigma to Cybertron.

Or that as I suggest above, the Quints corrupted something they found on Cybertron into part of the mass production network....much like we do rivers and water ways near our mass production networks.

Eh, both could work allthough the second makes more sence. Still doesn't exsplain why the Quints didn't build a computer to produce functions rather than personalitys.

Rial Vestro wrote: and if it was made by them to simply be part of a mass production network then it would function to give multiple robots simple functions not individual personality programming.

This just isint a logical argument.

I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

The way I see it its a 50/50 crap shoot.

Why is it not logical? You got 3 different groups here.

Organic Slaves who allready have individual personalitys. OK why don't we have slaves anymore? They know they're not being treated fairly and rebel agenst their masters.

The next 2 groups are robots. Now why build robots to do the work that could be done by organics? For one robots are stronger than organics, for another Robots don't have thoughts or feelings of their own, they do what they're programed for and think no more about it.

Now when you make a robot that acts like an organic you're basically removeing one quality about robots that's makes them superior to organics. In doing so a self aware robot is harder to control than an organic slave.

So there IS IN FACT logic in the thought that no one would want to mass produce a bunch of self aware sentiant robots. That's just asking for disaster.

Rial Vestro wrote:What I mean by functions is that in the case of the Decepticons who were gladiator robots, they'd all be programed for combat and nothing more. Autobots could be programed for other things. Maybe they could mass produce robots who are all programmed to be butlers and maids around the Quint's houses. But there'd be no need for robots with personalitys.

You just have a poor imagination.

Gladiator robots with out any desire for revenge ot to hurt the other wouldnt be fun to watch for long.

There would be no feeling to the fights, no cunning, no risk, no reason for the viewer to become vested.

Personaloties makes a great difference.

And remember, they were being sold as merchandise.Both lines.If your an alien race buying robots as slaves to fight your wars your going to want your slaves to want to fight the enemy, to hate the enemy and to reconise they are being treated fairly well.......again personaloties make that possible.

And the same can be said about the "butller" class of robots.

WRONG! You can easily build a robot to fight a war for you and be destroyed for you without even careing about that war. It's following programming. Kill these people. Simple as that.

If it has a personailty, is self aware, sentiant then insted of saying "go kill that group of people" and then their dead you insted get the risk of hearing this responce "Why? What did they do to me?" and then you spend hours argueing with a robot who is then capable of desideing that YOU are the bad guy not the group of people it was created to kill and you die they live.

Being sentiant, self aware, and free thinking means that you can deside for yourself what you want to do and to hell with whatever it was you were originaly designed for.

Programing lifeless functions into a bunch of drones simply makes them easy to controll. There's no chance of any free will thinking going on when all they're programed for is spicific tasks and don't even care about why they're doing that task. It's just "go do this" "OK" and power down when they're done.

Rial Vestro wrote:Yeah except that the Quints would have programed their robots to be drones not individual thinking beings.

Theres no reason to assume that.

I'm getting tiard of exsplaining that one but here's one last sinario.

You build 2 robots both to do the same task. One is a drone and the other is sentiant. Lets say they're both designed to clean your house every day. The drone will do so without question, without argueing, and without breaks. The sentiant robot may start off doing as it was told but once it starts to learn about things that will change. Say you come home from work one day and start talking to your wife about a conversation you had with coworkers on your lunch break. Both robots overhear the conversation. The drone does not react at all and keeps working but the sentiant robot would become curious and ask what a lunch break is and if you ignored it and told it to go back to work it may insist on learning first before returning to work. You eventally break down and tell the robot but then all of a sudden the robot wants to take a break from work. You tell it that it's a machine and doesn't need to take a break but it refuses to work anyway and all the wile this argument is going on the drone is continueing to work and not react to any of it.

Simple matter of fact is that the more "human" you make a machine the more capable it is to be dissobediant to it's owners. Just like a human, a sentiant robot can learn and adapt to different situations and be more than what it was designed for. A drone will never do any more than what it's programed to do.

Not even the later creations of the Quints ,The Sharkticons and the Aligatorcons" were drones.Granted they werent that bright but they werent drones.

What makes you think that? Did one Sharkticon ever stand out as being any different from any other Sharkticon? I agree they weren't too bright but that's not why I said they were drones. I said they were drones because there's no difinitive difference from one to another. They all seem to opperate under the same basic programming and aren't really capable of individual thought.

Rial Vestro wrote:Look at the Sharkticons for an example. Not a one of them stands out abouve the others. They're all programed with verry simple programming not individual personailtys.

And yet they werent drones.

They were kept dump to not relieve the same mistakjes but they still had limited intelegence.

And some of the Alicatorcons were much smartter.

"Drone" has nothing to do with inteligence. It just means that they don't have individual personalitys which they didn't.

You could have multiple robots smart enough to create a space ship, create a new fuel suply for it, fly it 5 lightyears away, land on another planet, and come back with any information they found and they would still be drones unless each robot had their own idividual personality traits.

If they're programed for a spicific task and they do that task without question or hesitation of any kind and there are more like them who are just the same, they're drones. If they're programed to for a spicific task and are capable of recognizeing that what they're doing is wrong or simply don't like what it is they're doing and several others just like them are either continuing to work or have stoped working for personal reasons they're sentiant. It's simple as that.

The Sharkticons aren't any dumber or smarter than the Dinobots but I would say that the Dinobots actully show signs of individual thought however little that thought might be where the Sharkticons have shown no such signs of individual thought.

Rial Vestro wrote:No just the way you were phraising your posts simply didn't make sence and read as contridictions till you exsplained it that way.

Again........your closed mind in clouding your preseptions.

Rial Vestro wrote:That's a nice possible theory. One I don't totally agree with but it makes sence and I really can't even think of an alternate exsplination for it.

Thanks

Rial Vestro wrote:A. I don't have time right now, I have to type notes for work and get to bed but I know the episode you're talking about I'll have to rewatch it again later.

k

Rial Vestro wrote:B. Which has little to do with mass production of products. As I've allready pointed out when things are "mass produced" they are all produced to opperate the same fuctions. No computer straight out of the factory is going to be any different than any other computer of the same model from the same factory. Owners can individually reprogram and modify their computers to do different things but right out of the factory they're all the same.

Which I already pointed out, the different personaloties wasnt completely within the control of the Quints.

Rial Vestro wrote:
C. Yes, it was.

And being a factory Vector Sigma would have had a function.And that fuction was to program large numbers of robots.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Out of these 3 things you seem to think I'm blind to only the first one even has a possibility of being right.

Then your still blind.

Rial Vestro wrote:Because, it's far less likely that a drone programed to clean your house will be dissobediant and try to overthrow it's creator/owner than for a fully self aware robot.

I dont think the Quints cared all that much what happened to their product after it was sold.

Besides, that may have been something they thought they didnt have to deal with.

Your reasoning still isint logical.

Rial Vestro wrote:Basically haveing organic slaves could have accoplished the same goal as the setiant robots and they wouldn't cost as much sence there's no manufacturing involved and they're not as capable to overtrow their masters as the robots were.

There are alot of reasons that drones are just safer to have around than sentiant robots.

And who's to say they could have kept organic slaves???

Spike was able to man handle a Quint quite easily.

The Quints looked very week.Far easier to created their own slaves.

Rial Vestro wrote:
He tried to enhance their brains after realizing what a stupid idea it was to make them like real Dinosaurs. Dr.Smoove even made fun of this in the spoof version.

Your trying to use a spoof vid as proof of your argument????

Boy I just dont know what to say.

Anyway theres no reason to believe Wheeljack wanted them to be stupid, there is reason to believe that he just couldnt do much better.

Rial Vestro wrote:I probly need to watch that episode again too. I seem to remember that Computron was shown first and then split apart only after Grimlock downloaded his inteligence into them.

Yeah you need to watch it again.

Rial Vestro wrote:Eh, both could work allthough the second makes more sence. Still doesn't exsplain why the Quints didn't build a computer to produce functions rather than personalitys.

Actually, the 2nd senrio presents its own answer to that.

If the Quint currpted something they found on Cybertron into giving life its very possible that they werent aware of the issue till it was too late.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Why is it not logical? You got 3 different groups here.

Organic Slaves who allready have individual personalitys. OK why don't we have slaves anymore? They know they're not being treated fairly and rebel agenst their masters.

I still dont get why you think they could have kept organic slaves.

Rial Vestro wrote:
The next 2 groups are robots. Now why build robots to do the work that could be done by organics? For one robots are stronger than organics, for another Robots don't have thoughts or feelings of their own, they do what they're programed for and think no more about it.

Now when you make a robot that acts like an organic you're basically removeing one quality about robots that's makes them superior to organics. In doing so a self aware robot is harder to control than an organic slave.

And your assume that they intended for such diverse personalities.

Thats where your logic fails.

Theres no reason to assume that they intended for what they got.

Rial Vestro wrote:WRONG!

No your wrong.

Rial Vestro wrote:You can easily build a robot to fight a war for you and be destroyed for you without even careing about that war. It's following programming. Kill these people. Simple as that.

And when the opposite site is capable of buying the same product all you have is a stalemate.

On the other hand if you got a warrior that cares about the fight, you have a greater possibility of that fighter trying to find new ways to out thing the enemy.

Rial Vestro wrote:
If it has a personailty, is self aware, sentiant then insted of saying "go kill that group of people" and then their dead you insted get the risk of hearing this responce "Why? What did they do to me?" and then you spend hours argueing with a robot who is then capable of desideing that YOU are the bad guy not the group of people it was created to kill and you die they live.

Yeah the Romans had the same issues.........and look how long they were in power.Much of their armies consisted of slave members fighting to become citizens.

As for the rest of this section I can only repeat....you have a poor imagination.There are many ways to control a slave, free thinking or otherwise.

Wont last forever thou.

Rial Vestro wrote:
I'm getting tiard of exsplaining that one

Good because you keep failing.

Rial Vestro wrote: but here's one last sinario.

And yet an other fail.

Rial Vestro wrote:What makes you think that?

The fact that they rebelled against their masters.

And 1 did stand out from the rest in the show and one more so in the comics the comics.

Rial Vestro wrote: "Drone" has nothing to do with inteligence. It just means that they don't have individual personalitys which they didn't.

Thats not exactly true.

Drone does have to do a bit with intelligence and personalty.And the Sharkticons did have a bit of personaloty....some were able to talk.

Rial Vestro wrote:The Sharkticons aren't any dumber or smarter than the Dinobots but I would say that the Dinobots actully show signs of individual thought however little that thought might be where the Sharkticons have shown no such signs of individual thought.

I wouldnt agree with that either.

I felt they were much dumber then the Dinos.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:

Heres the issue.

The way I see it the Quints took something they found on Cybertron and corupted it into a factory.

The found some primal life giving force....Call it Primus or what ever you want, but the Quints took what they found and rebuilt it into Vector Sigma.

The different personalities was a bit out of their control, it was the sources way of excaping the Quints grip.

That's a nice possible theory. One I don't totally agree with but it makes sence and I really can't even think of an alternate exsplination for it.

Thanks

You were missing a quote tag here.

Rial Vestro wrote:Because, it's far less likely that a drone programed to clean your house will be dissobediant and try to overthrow it's creator/owner than for a fully self aware robot.

I dont think the Quints cared all that much what happened to their product after it was sold.

I could understand that reasoning if they were selling the robots to other planets and not to their own people. Would you use a product you knew damn well was defective?

Besides, that may have been something they thought they didnt have to deal with.

Your reasoning still isint logical.

If that's what they thought their reasoning wasn't logical not mine.

Rial Vestro wrote:Basically haveing organic slaves could have accoplished the same goal as the setiant robots and they wouldn't cost as much sence there's no manufacturing involved and they're not as capable to overtrow their masters as the robots were.

There are alot of reasons that drones are just safer to have around than sentiant robots.

And who's to say they could have kept organic slaves???

Spike was able to man handle a Quint quite easily.

The Quints looked very week.Far easier to created their own slaves.

Now that's poor logic. If the quints were too weak to control a free thinking organic what made them think they could control giant free thinking robots. The robots are even stronger than humans so how does makeing the slaves stronger but still haveing free will make them easier to keep as slaves?

This is what you seem to be failing to understand. A free thinking robot would be much HARDER to controll than any organic life form. Where's the logic in that organics are hard to keep as slaves so we're going to build robots who are as equilly free willed and 100 times stronger. Yeah there's no way that will turn out badly.

Rial Vestro wrote:Eh, both could work allthough the second makes more sence. Still doesn't exsplain why the Quints didn't build a computer to produce functions rather than personalitys.

Actually, the 2nd senrio presents its own answer to that.

If the Quint currpted something they found on Cybertron into giving life its very possible that they werent aware of the issue till it was too late.

Actully if they created a few prototypes as you sugested earlier and used Vector Sigma to bring them to life it should of become preddy appearent early on that the robots had "flaws" in their programming.

Rial Vestro wrote:Why is it not logical? You got 3 different groups here.

Organic Slaves who allready have individual personalitys. OK why don't we have slaves anymore? They know they're not being treated fairly and rebel agenst their masters.

I still dont get why you think they could have kept organic slaves.

I never said they could keep oranic slaves. Pay attention. What I've been trying to exsplain is that organics would be easier to control than sentiant robots because the organics aren't as strong. Both have the fatal flaw of being self aware and free thinking but one is stronger than the other.

A robot could kill it's organic master with it's bare hands at any given moment if it had free will. An organic would have to plan months, maybe even years ahead of time to start any kind of rebellion and even then would risk looseing his or her own life trying to gain their freedom.

Rial Vestro wrote:The next 2 groups are robots. Now why build robots to do the work that could be done by organics? For one robots are stronger than organics, for another Robots don't have thoughts or feelings of their own, they do what they're programed for and think no more about it.

Now when you make a robot that acts like an organic you're basically removeing one quality about robots that's makes them superior to organics. In doing so a self aware robot is harder to control than an organic slave.

And your assume that they intended for such diverse personalities.

Thats where your logic fails.

Theres no reason to assume that they intended for what they got.

And that's where your logic fails. They could of brought a few prototypes to life and once they realized the programming was flawed, fix the problem. Insted they continued to make them sentiant.

They may not of intended for them all to be sentiant but surely they're smart enough to hold off production till the "bugs" can be worked out of the prototypes.

Rial Vestro wrote:You can easily build a robot to fight a war for you and be destroyed for you without even careing about that war. It's following programming. Kill these people. Simple as that.

And when the opposite site is capable of buying the same product all you have is a stalemate.

Why would you sell a product to your enemy? It was the Quints who were makeing and buying these robots. Allthough given the large number of planets populated by machines I'm betting they did sell to other planets as well but I doubt they would sell war machines to someone they were at war with.

Rial Vestro wrote:If it has a personailty, is self aware, sentiant then insted of saying "go kill that group of people" and then their dead you insted get the risk of hearing this responce "Why? What did they do to me?" and then you spend hours argueing with a robot who is then capable of desideing that YOU are the bad guy not the group of people it was created to kill and you die they live.

Yeah the Romans had the same issues.........and look how long they were in power.Much of their armies consisted of slave members fighting to become citizens.

As for the rest of this section I can only repeat....you have a poor imagination.There are many ways to control a slave, free thinking or otherwise.

Wont last forever thou.

Again, pay attention. I never said they couldn't be controlled for a short time. In fact I have sugested quite the oppisite. It's that last statement you said that I'm refering to. "Won't last forever" anything dealing with free thinking individuals won't but if you can create something that has no free will you could control it forever.

It's not about being impossible to control, just difficult. Free will is hard to control no matter what and you will eventually end up with a rebellian.

The way to control someone is take away their free will which can never been done completely. But you can build something that never had free will to begine with.

rial wrote:I could understand that reasoning if they were selling the robots to other planets and not to their own people. Would you use a product you knew damn well was defective?

its economics.
Ford Pinto

They shoot horses, don't they? Well, this is fish in a barrel. Of course the Pinto goes on the Worst list, but not because it was a particularly bad car — not particularly — but because it had a rather volatile nature. The car tended to erupt in flame in rear-end collisions. The Pinto is at the end of one of autodom's most notorious paper trails, the Ford Pinto memo , which ruthlessly calculates the cost of reinforcing the rear end ($121 million) versus the potential payout to victims ($50 million). Conclusion? Let 'em burn.

rial wrote:Why would you sell a product to your enemy? It was the Quints who were makeing and buying these robots. Allthough given the large number of planets populated by machines I'm betting they did sell to other planets as well but I doubt they would sell war machines to someone they were at war with.

ever hear of oliver north

North was at the center of national attention during the Iran-Contra affair, a political scandal of the late 1980s. North was a National Security Council member involved in the clandestine sale of weapons to Iran, which served to encourage the release of U.S. hostages from Lebanon. North formulated the second part of the plan: diverting proceeds from the arms sales to support the Contra rebel group in Nicaragua. North was charged with several felonies,

Name_Violation wrote:

rial wrote:I could understand that reasoning if they were selling the robots to other planets and not to their own people. Would you use a product you knew damn well was defective?

its economics.
Ford Pinto

They shoot horses, don't they? Well, this is fish in a barrel. Of course the Pinto goes on the Worst list, but not because it was a particularly bad car — not particularly — but because it had a rather volatile nature. The car tended to erupt in flame in rear-end collisions. The Pinto is at the end of one of autodom's most notorious paper trails, the Ford Pinto memo , which ruthlessly calculates the cost of reinforcing the rear end ($121 million) versus the potential payout to victims ($50 million). Conclusion? Let 'em burn.

rial wrote:Why would you sell a product to your enemy? It was the Quints who were makeing and buying these robots. Allthough given the large number of planets populated by machines I'm betting they did sell to other planets as well but I doubt they would sell war machines to someone they were at war with.

ever hear of oliver north

North was at the center of national attention during the Iran-Contra affair, a political scandal of the late 1980s. North was a National Security Council member involved in the clandestine sale of weapons to Iran, which served to encourage the release of U.S. hostages from Lebanon. North formulated the second part of the plan: diverting proceeds from the arms sales to support the Contra rebel group in Nicaragua. North was charged with several felonies,

OK let me rephraise.

In the first case of selling defective products. I was refering to manufactures useing the same products which they were selling. It's not uncommon to sell something defective to a random consumer who you don't know with the line of thinking that "if they sue the pay out might be less then the cost of fixing the defect." Windchester rifles were defective and notorious for killing more of it's users then anything it was ever aimed at includeing it's creator but in that particular case I doubt that Mr. Windchester even realized there was a problem or he wouldn't of used the riffle himself.

In the second case, that's a matter of selling weapons under the table. Again not entirely unheard of but definatly illegal and stupid. In a one on one fight it's even more common for a "hero" to arm his enemy as it wouldn't be honerable to attack an unarmed man but in the real world does anyone care about honer anymore? If you've got a gun and someone threatens to kill you do you want to give them a gun and have a western styal show down or just shoot them?

In any case the most logical thing to do would be to build WORKING products if you intend to use them yourself or at least try to and not sell weapons to someone who threatens to kill you unless you really want to die.

Rial Vestro wrote:You were missing a quote tag here.

Thanks....I corrected it.

Rial Vestro wrote:I could understand that reasoning if they were selling the robots to other planets and not to their own people. Would you use a product you knew damn well was defective?

And I dont see any indication that...

A] they were selling them to their own people

B] they would have cared either way.

Rial Vestro wrote:If that's what they thought their reasoning wasn't logical not mine.

No one said they were logical.

Rial Vestro wrote:Now that's poor logic.

Really????Lets see........

Rial Vestro wrote: If the quints were too weak to control a free thinking organic what made them think they could control giant free thinking robots.

Again your logic is flawed because your assuming they intended for the robots to be free thinking.

Rial Vestro wrote: The robots are even stronger than humans so how does makeing the slaves stronger but still haveing free will make them easier to keep as slaves?

Robots are programmable and by that fact alone the Quints would have believed them easy to control.

Rial Vestro wrote:
This is what you seem to be failing to understand. A free thinking robot would be much HARDER to controll than any organic life form.

And what you keep failing to understand is that there is no indication,no evidence,no information to even suggest that it was the intention of the Quints that their robots learn the value of freedom.

Your entire argument fails because you keep predicating them on bad assumptions.

Rial Vestro wrote:Actully if they created a few prototypes as you sugested earlier and used Vector Sigma to bring them to life it should of become preddy appearent early on that the robots had "flaws" in their programming.

If you followed what I said earlier.....I said the prototypes were given what passed for life with out the use of VG.

Rial Vestro wrote:I never said they could keep oranic slaves. Pay attention.

You did bring it up.

Rial Vestro wrote: What I've been trying to exsplain is that organics would be easier to control than sentiant robots because the organics aren't as strong. Both have the fatal flaw of being self aware and free thinking but one is stronger than the other.

And again your argument is based on the idea that the Quints intended to create "sentiant" robots.

There isint even a hint of that notion in any episode.

Rial Vestro wrote:And that's where your logic fails.

Really????Again???

You failed above....lets see how you do this time.

Rial Vestro wrote: They could of brought a few prototypes to life and once they realized the programming was flawed, fix the problem. Insted they continued to make them sentiant.

They may not of intended for them all to be sentiant but surely they're smart enough to hold off production till the "bugs" can be worked out of the prototypes.

Assuming facts not in evidence.

A] your assuming that the flaws would have been easily evident

B] your assuming they could have fixed the issue

C] your assuming they would have seen it as a flaw and not a mirical.

D] your assuming that they wouldnt have tried to fix it with more programing.

E] your assuming they would have bothered to stop production

Most retailer wont stop production for what would be considered a "minor defect"

Indivisaual personalities wouldnt have been seen as more then a simple "glitch" in the programing prossus.One that they would have thought been ,at first,pretty random and controlable.

Further more it made the robot capable or other things.

Which would have increased there marketability.

Sell them as "friends" as well as servants and tools.

This is why I keep telling you that you need a "retailers concepts" to be arguing in this debate.

So again you failed, your logic failed because you dont have a fundimental grasp on the concepts or retail goods.

Rial Vestro wrote:Why would you sell a product to your enemy?

Dude please think before you post.

The Quints were known to seel the same weapons to both sides in a war.

Rial Vestro wrote: It was the Quints who were makeing and buying these robots.

Nope.

It was the Quints that were marketing and selling these robots to other races threw out the universe.

I dont even know where you got the idea they were selling the robots to each other.

Rial Vestro wrote: Again, pay attention. I never said they couldn't be controlled for a short time. In fact I have sugested quite the oppisite. It's that last statement you said that I'm refering to. "Won't last forever" anything dealing with free thinking individuals won't but if you can create something that has no free will you could control it forever.

I'm not the one that needs to pay attention.

Theres no indication the Quints ever cared long enough to even consider what happened the day after they sold them....much less what might happen down the road.

Name_Violation wrote:its economics.
Ford Pinto

Exactly.

They shoot horses, don't they? Well, this is fish in a barrel. Of course the Pinto goes on the Worst list, but not because it was a particularly bad car — not particularly — but because it had a rather volatile nature. The car tended to erupt in flame in rear-end collisions. The Pinto is at the end of one of autodom's most notorious paper trails, the Ford Pinto memo , which ruthlessly calculates the cost of reinforcing the rear end ($121 million) versus the potential payout to victims ($50 million). Conclusion? Let 'em burn.

Nice analogy.

ever hear of oliver north

North was at the center of national attention during the Iran-Contra affair, a political scandal of the late 1980s. North was a National Security Council member involved in the clandestine sale of weapons to Iran, which served to encourage the release of U.S. hostages from Lebanon. North formulated the second part of the plan: diverting proceeds from the arms sales to support the Contra rebel group in Nicaragua. North was charged with several felonies,

This might be before his time.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:I could understand that reasoning if they were selling the robots to other planets and not to their own people. Would you use a product you knew damn well was defective?

And I dont see any indication that...

A] they were selling them to their own people

B] they would have cared either way.

A. The Quintessons were refered to not only as their creators but as their masters as well which would mean that the products were being used by the Quints not just built by them. There were allso several senes in the past showing the Quints keeping robotic slaves before the repelion. Hell even the scene showing Megatron's creation would sugest that some of the Transformers were used as part of the assembly line to create other Transformers. There's ALOT to sugest that the Quints were useing the TFs themselfs and actully verry little to sugest that they sold them to other races. I would assume they did because there were so many other planets besides Cybertron populated by robots but how do we know that the Quints are responcible for every planet's robotic inhabitants? It's just one possible theory.

B. I'm going to say this again. If you designed something you knew was defeactive would you use it?

Rial Vestro wrote: If the quints were too weak to control a free thinking organic what made them think they could control giant free thinking robots.

Again your logic is flawed because your assuming they intended for the robots to be free thinking.

No, like allways you're not looking at the complete post. I have never, NEVER, not even once even sugested that they intended for them to be free thinking. What I'm saying is that if they indeed made prototypes who were free thinking they should of realized there was a flaw right there and fixed it before going into mass production.

This is preddy much why I think their prototypes were drones because they didn't notice the flaw till after mass production.

Rial Vestro wrote: The robots are even stronger than humans so how does makeing the slaves stronger but still haveing free will make them easier to keep as slaves?

Robots are programmable and by that fact alone the Quints would have believed them easy to control.

OK but what about the Prototypes. Testing phaises. You really exspect me to belive that no one noticed they had free will till after mass production if the protypes were allso programed by Vector Sigma?

Rial Vestro wrote:I never said they could keep oranic slaves. Pay attention.

You did bring it up.

I brought it up as a comparison. To which you replyed they weren't strong enough to control them. If you had paid attention the first time I wouldn't of had to repeat the fact that robots are stronger and you wouldn't have made that reply.

Rial Vestro wrote: What I've been trying to exsplain is that organics would be easier to control than sentiant robots because the organics aren't as strong. Both have the fatal flaw of being self aware and free thinking but one is stronger than the other.

And again your argument is based on the idea that the Quints intended to create "sentiant" robots.

There isint even a hint of that notion in any episode.

Again NO IT ISN'T AND I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT. There is no idea, assumetion or anything of any kind that the quints intended for them to be sentiant. All I'm saying is that they should of noticed the flaw early on before there was a great number of them. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Rial Vestro wrote: They could of brought a few prototypes to life and once they realized the programming was flawed, fix the problem. Insted they continued to make them sentiant.

They may not of intended for them all to be sentiant but surely they're smart enough to hold off production till the "bugs" can be worked out of the prototypes.

Assuming facts not in evidence.

A] your assuming that the flaws would have been easily evident

B] your assuming they could have fixed the issue

C] your assuming they would have seen it as a flaw and not a mirical.

D] your assuming that they wouldnt have tried to fix it with more programing.

E] your assuming they would have bothered to stop production

A. Not assumeing. It would be about as easy to notice as the difference in personality between a set of identicle twins. Won't notice it right away but if you're around each of them long enough eventually you can tell them apart by how they act.

B. They could have by either reprograming Vector Sigma or if that was not an option, building a entirely different computer that was easier to control.

C. If they saw it as a mirical they would have either feared the free thinking robots and tryed to destroy them or worshiped them. Typically though when you build a robot to do a task and that robot desides it doesn't want to, it's seen as a flaw. The real assumention here would be that I don't think they would see it as free will but insted just a programming error and try to fix it before building more of them. Great example of this, Johnny 5. He gained free will and that free will was originally seen as a simple programming error that they tryed to fix before they later realized that he was sentiant.

D. That one is just you putting words in my mouth again. Of course that would be the first thing they would try but probly fail.

E. Again, if you're going to make a product you probly wouldn't mind selling the product with defects but would you use it yourself.

You said it yourself, Cybertron was a factory and you know who worked there? Transformers. Who was running the factory? Quintessons. So essentially they were useing Transformers to help mass produce themselfs.

Most retailer wont stop production for what would be considered a "minor defect"

I would hardly call anything that could be potentially fatal as "minor" but otherwise you're right.

Rial Vestro wrote:Why would you sell a product to your enemy?

Dude please think before you post.

The Quints were known to seel the same weapons to both sides in a war.

Dude, stop twisting my words around.

A war between two other races maybe. Why should they care if the other two races kill eachother? But if they were on one side of said war why give the weapon to their own enemy?

Rial Vestro wrote: It was the Quints who were makeing and buying these robots.

Nope.

It was the Quints that were marketing and selling these robots to other races threw out the universe.

I dont even know where you got the idea they were selling the robots to each other.

Where did you get the idea that they weren't? You can see the Quintessons with the Transformers as slaves in the flash back episodes and they were refered to as their creators AND MASTERS. You do realize what "master" means right? The quints actully owned them, they didn't just sell them.

It is verry likely that they sold to other races as well but the Quints did in fact keep some of the robots for themselfs.

There's actully more evidence to suport the Quints owning them than any other race sence we don't actully know how cybernetic life got on other planets, we only knew about Cybertron. It's a definate possibility but other races could have built their own robots as well. We just don't know for sure.

Rial Vestro wrote: Again, pay attention. I never said they couldn't be controlled for a short time. In fact I have sugested quite the oppisite. It's that last statement you said that I'm refering to. "Won't last forever" anything dealing with free thinking individuals won't but if you can create something that has no free will you could control it forever.

I'm not the one that needs to pay attention.

Theres no indication the Quints ever cared long enough to even consider what happened the day after they sold them....much less what might happen down the road.

Again, that would only makes sence if the Quintessons weren't useing the robots themselfs. Who cares what happens to some other pore race but what happens to the manufactuarer.

Here's another piece of evidence that the Quints were useing their own products, if they were simply selling them the Transformers would not have been on Cybertron to start any kind of rebellion there. They would have started rebellions on the other planets they were sold to. Cybertron as you said yourself was a factory. Hence the robots there would have been factory workers or allready on their way through to shipping.

Look at factorys today. Allmost everything is automated now days. If there's a problem with the machines in the factory the product doesn't get finished. For Cybertron the automated machineary would have been the transformers themselfs building more of their own kind.

Rial Vestro wrote:A. The Quintessons were refered to not only as their creators but as their masters as well which would mean that the products were being used by the Quints not just built by them.

So now your telling me your ignorant to real world history as you are to G1.

Slave sellers often used their "product" till they were sold to others.Some sellers also kept slaves of their own.

None of that means they were selling them to each other as you said earlier.

Rial Vestro wrote:Hell even the scene showing Megatron's creation would sugest that some of the Transformers were used as part of the assembly line to create other Transformers.

Yeah I memntioned something about this before.

Rial Vestro wrote: There's ALOT to sugest that the Quints were useing the TFs themselfs

You said selling to each other before not useing themselfs.

Rial Vestro wrote: B. I'm going to say this again. If you designed something you knew was defeactive would you use it?

And I'll say this again...

your assuming they would have considered it a defect.
your assuming they would have noticed the defect.

Rial Vestro wrote:No, like allways you're not looking at the complete post. I have never, NEVER, not even once even sugested that they intended for them to be free thinking. What I'm saying is that if they indeed made prototypes who were free thinking they should of realized there was a flaw right there and fixed it before going into mass production.

I did read the whole post.

And your argument is still flawed.

Theres no reason to even think they would have considered the issue a defect and not some great accident.

Theres also no reason to assume they would have even noticed right away.

Theres also no reason to assume they could have fixed the issue.

Rial Vestro wrote:OK but what about the Prototypes. Testing phaises. You really exspect me to belive that no one noticed they had free will till after mass production if the protypes were allso programed by Vector Sigma?

You think free will is that reconizable in a machine???

I'm sorry but I think not.More then likely it would have been considered a "glitch" or a "short" in the most dominate robot, he would have been removed from the others, dissected to find the problem and destroyed when they couldnt find or fix the issue.

The other robots ,IN FEAR OF THE SAME" would have learned to suppress their feelings. Althou this would not remain so because over the years with their numbers growing they would start to meat and plot in secret.

But all of this would happen behind the Quints backs.

Rial Vestro wrote:I brought it up as a comparison.

A very poor one.

Rial Vestro wrote:Again NO IT ISN'T AND I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT. There is no idea, assumetion or anything of any kind that the quints intended for them to be sentiant. All I'm saying is that they should of noticed the flaw early on before there was a great number of them. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Your entire argument is based on illogical assumptions.

And I'm not putting words in your mouth...thats the logical extention of your argument.

Rial Vestro wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:
A. Not assumeing. It would be about as easy to notice as the difference in personality between a set of identicle twins. Won't notice it right away but if you're around each of them long enough eventually you can tell them apart by how they act.

Still assuming.

A] your assuming the Quints that did the creating whold stick around long enough to observe them

B] your assuming the behaivor would have been pronounced

C] your assuming it would have been viewed as a negative when found

D] most of all your assume they would have cared

Rial Vestro wrote:B. They could have by either reprograming Vector Sigma or if that was not an option, building a entirely different computer that was easier to control.

Still assuming

A] that they could "re-programed" VG in the first place

B] that they didnt try an failed

C] that they could have built an other super computer to do the job with the same quity.

Rial Vestro wrote:C. If they saw it as a mirical they would have either feared the free thinking robots and tryed to destroy them or worshiped them.

Full of assumptions.

A] most mad sicentest dont fear their creations.They would have believed they could still control them.

B] worship them??????Thats a stretch.

Rial Vestro wrote:E. Again, if you're going to make a product you probly wouldn't mind selling the product with defects but would you use it yourself.

Depends on the nature of the defect.

And in this case the "defect" in question could become quite useful.

Rial Vestro wrote:
You said it yourself, Cybertron was a factory and you know who worked there? Transformers. Who was running the factory? Quintessons. So essentially they were useing Transformers to help mass produce themselfs.

Exactly....and if you could see the big picture you would noticed how you just made my point.

Rial Vestro wrote:I would hardly call anything that could be potentially fatal as "minor" but otherwise you're right.

"YOU WOULDNT"

History proves that many manufactures would.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Dude, stop twisting my words around.

Then make your words clear.

Rial Vestro wrote:
A war between two other races maybe. Why should they care if the other two races kill eachother? But if they were on one side of said war why give the weapon to their own enemy?

Why are you assuming that they would be on any side of any war???

The Quints always lived outside that BS.

Rial Vestro wrote:Where did you get the idea that they weren't? You can see the Quintessons with the Transformers as slaves in the flash back episodes and they were refered to as their creators AND MASTERS. You do realize what "master" means right? The quints actully owned them, they didn't just sell them.

Explained above.

And we have no evedence that there were ever more then a small group of Quints.

We saw that they were all capable creators.We saw no indication that they sold goods to each other.

As I said "keeping slaves" you created is different then selling them to an other creator of slaves.

Rial Vestro wrote:Again, that would only makes sence if the Quintessons weren't useing the robots themselfs. Who cares what happens to some other pore race but what happens to the manufactuarer.

It makes sence either way if they couldnt correct the issue

Rial Vestro wrote:
Here's another piece of evidence that the Quints were useing their own products,

That was never in question

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:A. The Quintessons were refered to not only as their creators but as their masters as well which would mean that the products were being used by the Quints not just built by them.

So now your telling me your ignorant to real world history as you are to G1.

Slave sellers often used their "product" till they were sold to others.Some sellers also kept slaves of their own.

None of that means they were selling them to each other as you said earlier.

WTF are you talking about now?

You said that they wouldn't care about what happens to their product after it was sold which is fine except that the Quintessons themselfs were allso useing the products.

Weather or not any Quints were consumers isn't even relivant. All that matters is that the Quints were owners of their own robots and they most likely knew the products were defective so why would they continue to use them? The reasoning that they simply don't care about what happens to the costumer who buys the product only makes sence if they themselfs are not useing the products they create.

It's this simple. I'm saying "There's a risk of robots becomming dissobediant so we we'll sell them but we won't activate them till after they've been shipped out of the factory, who cares about the consumer." Vs. What you're saying which is "There's a risk of robots becomming dissobediant so we'll activate them and use them in the factory, who cares about the consumer." Now which one actully makes sence.

Rial Vestro wrote: There's ALOT to sugest that the Quints were useing the TFs themselfs

You said selling to each other before not useing themselfs.

I might of said something about selling to eachother but it was irrelivant and you're missing the point.

The enthisis is on Quints USEING the products not why they have them but USEING them. Why the hell do you think I've posted the question "Would you use a product you knew was defective?" so many times. A question BTW which you have ignored multiple times while fucosing on irrelivent trival things that I said maybe once and forgot about several posts ago.

Rial Vestro wrote: B. I'm going to say this again. If you designed something you knew was defeactive would you use it?

And I'll say this again...

your assuming they would have considered it a defect.
your assuming they would have noticed the defect.

And I'll say this again.

Anything that was intentinally programed into them would be seen as defect. The Johnny 5 comparison.

That's a preddy safe assumetion. "Hey robot, go clean the windows. But I'm afraid of hights. What did you say?" "Hey robot kill him. Why what did he do to me? What did you say?" Need I go on? The verry moment a robot responds to an order with anything other than what it was programed for it's a dead give away that there's a "defect" in the programming. There's no way that can go unnoticed for verry long if at all.

Rial Vestro wrote:No, like allways you're not looking at the complete post. I have never, NEVER, not even once even sugested that they intended for them to be free thinking. What I'm saying is that if they indeed made prototypes who were free thinking they should of realized there was a flaw right there and fixed it before going into mass production.

I did read the whole post.

And your argument is still flawed.

Theres no reason to even think they would have considered the issue a defect and not some great accident.

Theres also no reason to assume they would have even noticed right away.

Theres also no reason to assume they could have fixed the issue.

Again, if they saw it as anything other than a flaw their reactions would verry from fear, to curiosidy, to worshiping metal gods.

Again, I never said it would be noticed right away. But durring testing or maybe even after the first wave was sent out something should of come up and someone should of noticed some kind of flaw in the programming before there was a great number of them and definatly before the rebellion started on Cybertron. There's just no way something like that could go unnoticed for as long as it did.

Maybe they couldn't but again that still doesn't exsplain why they use the defective products.

Simply put, you own a factory that makes beer. You know for a fact that there's enough poison in the mixture to kill you in a matter of seconds, are you going to drink it?

You own a gun factory. One of your guns blows up durring testing when fired and you know if you pull the trigger you're going to loose your arm. Are you going to pull the trigger?

You own a computer factory. You know for a fact that one of your computers has been known to crash every 5 sec. are you going to use it?

You own a toy factory. You know for a fact that one of your toys is easily breakable, are you going to let your kids play with it?

Rial Vestro wrote:OK but what about the Prototypes. Testing phaises. You really exspect me to belive that no one noticed they had free will till after mass production if the protypes were allso programed by Vector Sigma?

You think free will is that reconizable in a machine???

I said earlier that it wouldn't be recognized as free will but would be noticed a programming glitch and yes it would be easily recognizeable. I have several examples of it earlier in this post and several others which you seem to keep ignoreing.

I'm sorry but I think not.More then likely it would have been considered a "glitch" or a "short" in the most dominate robot, he would have been removed from the others, dissected to find the problem and destroyed when they couldnt find or fix the issue.

The other robots ,IN FEAR OF THE SAME" would have learned to suppress their feelings. Althou this would not remain so because over the years with their numbers growing they would start to meat and plot in secret.

But all of this would happen behind the Quints backs.

Now you're thinking.

Rial Vestro wrote:Again NO IT ISN'T AND I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT. There is no idea, assumetion or anything of any kind that the quints intended for them to be sentiant. All I'm saying is that they should of noticed the flaw early on before there was a great number of them. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Your entire argument is based on illogical assumptions.[/quot]

No my entire argument is based on the most logical possibilitys. Your entire arguement seems to be based on twisting my words around.

And I'm not putting words in your mouth...thats the logical extention of your argument.

Logical extention of my argument, in other words, you're assumeing what I'm going to say next before I've said anything at all. Sounds like putting words in my mouth to me. But hey if you want to argue with yourself go right ahead I'll stay out of it. But if you want to actully have a disscussion with me how about looking at what I'm actully saying not what you think I'm going to say.

Rial Vestro wrote:
A. Not assumeing. It would be about as easy to notice as the difference in personality between a set of identicle twins. Won't notice it right away but if you're around each of them long enough eventually you can tell them apart by how they act.

Still assuming.

A] your assuming the Quints that did the creating whold stick around long enough to observe them

B] your assuming the behaivor would have been pronounced

C] your assuming it would have been viewed as a negative when found

D] most of all your assume they would have cared

A. The Quints were useing the robots before they were sold elsewhere so that's not an assumetion that would be a fact. The quints were around them the entire time from when the first transformer was made till the rebellion when the Transformers took over Cybertron and drove the Quints off the planet. Someone had to have noticed in that time period.

B. Not in every robot. Some would be harder to recognize than others but it would still be appearent after a time.

C. Why wouldn't it be a negitive? As I stated at the begining what's the point of haveing robots if they're just as unreliable as organics and 50 times stronger.

D. Again, they were useing the robots. They might not have cared about the consumers but how could not care about themselfs. Again why I keep asking, would you use a product you knew was defective?

Rial Vestro wrote:B. They could have by either reprograming Vector Sigma or if that was not an option, building a entirely different computer that was easier to control.

Still assuming

A] that they could "re-programed" VG in the first place

B] that they didnt try an failed

C] that they could have built an other super computer to do the job with the same quity.

A. Read the bold statement. If I was assumeing what you're claiming I am I would not of said that.

B. See A.

C. Are you saying quality or quantity? WTF is quity? If quality, then they wouldn't want it to be the same. If Quantity, of course they could. All that would be nessisary is to wright the programs they wanted for different models and then download the programs into each model. That doesn't even take a super computer we have that technoligy in real life, how do you think your computer was programed?

Rial Vestro wrote:C. If they saw it as a mirical they would have either feared the free thinking robots and tryed to destroy them or worshiped them.

Full of assumptions.

A] most mad sicentest dont fear their creations.They would have believed they could still control them.

B] worship them??????Thats a stretch.

A. How long did Dr. Freankinstien belive he could control his monster? About till it stormed out his lab and started terroring the village.

B. Not going to go into why I even said that. I deleted part of that statement exsplaining it before because I thought it might be too offencive to the religios type people.

Rial Vestro wrote:E. Again, if you're going to make a product you probly wouldn't mind selling the product with defects but would you use it yourself.

Depends on the nature of the defect.

And in this case the "defect" in question could become quite useful.

Usefull how? I think it removes all usefullness from them.

Rial Vestro wrote:You said it yourself, Cybertron was a factory and you know who worked there? Transformers. Who was running the factory? Quintessons. So essentially they were useing Transformers to help mass produce themselfs.

Exactly....and if you could see the big picture you would noticed how you just made my point.

Your point? Excuse me? Your point was that the quints don't care about their customers. What the hell does the quints useing their own products have to do with how little they care about their customers. You couldn't make any less sence if you were speaking an entirely different language.

Rial Vestro wrote:Dude, stop twisting my words around.

Then make your words clear.

Practice what you preach. You seem to make less and less sence every time you post something. Lay off the drugs.

Rial Vestro wrote:A war between two other races maybe. Why should they care if the other two races kill eachother? But if they were on one side of said war why give the weapon to their own enemy?

Why are you assuming that they would be on any side of any war???

The Quints always lived outside that BS.

Um... that seems rather ignorant of the facts. The Quints were in at least 1 war that we know of and who's to say they weren't in others. Every race ingages in war at some point.

What was that war you ask? Well we've only mentioned it about 100 times in this conversation. The Rebellion, the Quintessons were at war with their creations and lost said war.

Rial Vestro wrote:Where did you get the idea that they weren't? You can see the Quintessons with the Transformers as slaves in the flash back episodes and they were refered to as their creators AND MASTERS. You do realize what "master" means right? The quints actully owned them, they didn't just sell them.

Explained above.

And we have no evedence that there were ever more then a small group of Quints.

We saw that they were all capable creators.We saw no indication that they sold goods to each other.

As I said "keeping slaves" you created is different then selling them to an other creator of slaves.

And as I said abouve weather they were selling them to other quints or just keeping them is irrelivant. The only relivant FACT that I was bringing up is that they used the products themselfs. You're the one who keeps getting stuck on the irrelivant issues.

Why do you do that. I say something, you respond to the wrong thing, I try to be more clear and insted of replying to newer post you continue to fixate on something I said several posts earlier and have never brought up again sence the first time I said it.

Rial Vestro wrote:Again, that would only makes sence if the Quintessons weren't useing the robots themselfs. Who cares what happens to some other pore race but what happens to the manufactuarer.

It makes sence either way if they couldnt correct the issue

No it doesn't. Again, would you use a product you knew was defective?

You can get by on saying that they couldn't of fixed the issue and wouldn't of cared to when it's just a product being sold to a consumer but when the manufacturer uses the product it makes a HUGE difference.

The consumer doesn't know the product they're buying has a defect. The manufacturer does. It makes sence that the manufacturer could get away with selling the defective product but it does not make sence that the manufacturer would use the defective product.

Rial Vestro wrote:Here's another piece of evidence that the Quints were useing their own products,

That was never in question

Yes it was. Weather or not the Quints were selling to eachother was never in question. I'm the one who brought it up in the first place don't tell me what I'm trying to say.

Vector Sigma is skynet. Quints didn't have a John Connor.

Transformers gain freedom in hostile takeover. By the time the Quints realized what was goin on it was too late.

I'm getting tired or this and it seems that you cant even get the basics of retail and manufacturing concepts.

Your entire argument is based on assumptions that just dont apply to the situation at hand.

BTW you had a missing quote tag in there.

Rial Vestro wrote:WTF are you talking about now?

Earlier you said that the Quints were marketing and selling these robots to each other.

There is no indication of that.

Yes, they used their own creations, just like most sellers of slaves used their property for different reasons.

Rial Vestro wrote:
You said that they wouldn't care about what happens to their product after it was sold which is fine except that the Quintessons themselfs were allso useing the products.

And they still wouldnt care about them.The Quints used the ones they either couldnt sell or they used them till they sold them.

Rial Vestro wrote:the Quints were owners of their own robots and they most likely knew the products were defective so why would they continue to use them?

Assumptions again.

A] there no reason to assume they would have considered it a defect.

B] theres no reason to assume that even if they thought it was a defect that they could do anything about it.

C] theres no reason to assume that they didnt try to fix it with more programming.

Rial Vestro wrote: Why the hell do you think I've posted the question "Would you use a product you knew was defective?" so many times. A question BTW which you have ignored multiple times

I havent ignored it at all.

I keep telling you that the question itself is based on a few assumptions........

A] that the Quints would have noticed the defects

B] that it would have been considered a defect

C] that they could do anything about it

Thats why the question is flawed, because the question itself relys on facts not in evidence.

And the simple fact is that if the Quints couldnt do anything to rectify the issue, yes they would continue building,useing and selling.

They were making to much money to stop.

Rial Vestro wrote:And I'll say this again.

Anything that was intentinally programed into them would be seen as defect. The Johnny 5 comparison.

A] you didnt say that before.

B] you just said if it was intentional it was a defect.

Which just isint logical.

I'm assuming you made a typo.But even that is a piss poor comparison.

Rial Vestro wrote:That's a preddy safe assumetion. "Hey robot, go clean the windows. But I'm afraid of hights. What did you say?" "Hey robot kill him. Why what did he do to me? What did you say?" Need I go on? The verry moment a robot responds to an order with anything other than what it was programed for it's a dead give away that there's a "defect" in the programming. There's no way that can go unnoticed for verry long if at all.

Your assuming the robot would respond to those request with out complying.

Thats just not likely.Most likely it would just "comply" with the orders to save his own neck.

Rial Vestro wrote:Again, if they saw it as anything other than a flaw their reactions would verry from fear, to curiosidy, to worshiping metal gods.

Nonsense on 2 counts.

Curiosity being the most likely and wondering if it can be duplicated.Such a robot would open up new sales markets.

Rial Vestro wrote: There's just no way something like that could go unnoticed for as long as it did.

Now your assuming it went un-noticed.

Rial Vestro wrote:I said earlier that it wouldn't be recognized as free will but would be noticed a programming glitch and yes it would be easily recognizeable. I have several examples of it earlier in this post and several others which you seem to keep ignoreing.

Because none of them are on point.

Theres no such real world comparison and any from other fictions are different because of the story being told by the writter.

You want a real world comparisons???

People have a tendicy to ignore problems till they can no longer be ignored.

People are arrogant,conceedit,full of them selfs, secure in the fact that they are the masters of all they survey.

This is true of individual people and large groups of people like those in charge of companies.

These kind of issue are normally look at as being odd and not the norm.

It would have gone over looked for years.

Ignored for decades.

Covered up for centuries.

And by the time they were ready to acknowledge it ,it would have been too late.

If you want a case that more on point from a different fiction????

Look twards the original "Planet of the Apes" movies.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Now you're thinking.

I'm always thinking.

Rial Vestro wrote:No my entire argument is based on

Illogical assumptions.....nothing more.

Rial Vestro wrote:A. The Quints were useing the robots before they were sold elsewhere so that's not an assumetion that would be a fact.

Thats an assumption.

There is not one shred of evidence that ever said the Quints used them "BEFORE" they sold them.

Rial Vestro wrote: The quints were around them the entire time from when the first transformer was made till the rebellion when the Transformers took over Cybertron and drove the Quints off the planet. Someone had to have noticed in that time period.

More assumptions.

Rial Vestro wrote:C. Why wouldn't it be a negitive?

Any number of reasons.

1] could open a new market for retail sale

2] could help in production

3] could be seen as a bonus

Why would it automatically be a negative???

Rial Vestro wrote:D. Again, they were useing the robots. They might not have cared about the consumers but how could not care about themselfs. Again why I keep asking, would you use a product you knew was defective?

Answered this a dozen times.

Rial Vestro wrote:A. Read the bold statement. If I was assumeing what you're claiming I am I would not of said that.

My point still stands

Rial Vestro wrote:
B. See A.

As above

Rial Vestro wrote:
C. Are you saying quality or quantity? WTF is quity?

Quality.

Rial Vestro wrote:If quality, then they wouldn't want it to be the same. If Quantity, of course they could. All that would be nessisary is to wright the programs they wanted for different models and then download the programs into each model. That doesn't even take a super computer we have that technoligy in real life, how do you think your computer was programed?

Your just not getting it.

Look at all the later creations of the Quints.

The Sharkticons
The Aligatorcons.

None of them were as smart or intellectually or personalty diversified as the Autobots and the Decepticons.

And I believe the reason was the lack of Vector Sigma.

I dont think they had the ability to create robots of the same programing level with out Vector Sigma and I think thats why they wanted Cybertron back so baddly.

I think they wanted to be able to created robots as smart as the TFS but try to control their wills.

Rial Vestro wrote:
A. How long did Dr. Freankinstien belive he could control his monster? About till it stormed out his lab and started terroring the village.

Theres a difference between how long he thought he could control his monster and how long he was actully capable of doing so.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Usefull how? I think it removes all usefullness from them.

Have you ever heard of "the house slave"???

Rial Vestro wrote:Your point?

Yep

Rial Vestro wrote: Excuse me?

Your excused.

Rial Vestro wrote:Your point was that the quints don't care about their customers.

That was one among many points.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Practice what you preach. You seem to make less and less sence every time you post something. Lay off the drugs.

Sorry buddy but your the only one not getting it.

These concepts are over your head.

Instead of arguing you should be asking questions.

Rial Vestro wrote:Um... that seems rather ignorant of the facts. The Quints were in at least 1 war that we know of and who's to say they weren't in others. Every race ingages in war at some point.

What was that war you ask? Well we've only mentioned it about 100 times in this conversation. The Rebellion, the Quintessons were at war with their creations and lost said war.

I wouldnt call that a war.

But either way it doesnt go against what I said earlier.

Rial Vestro wrote:And as I said abouve weather they were selling them to other quints or just keeping them is irrelivant.

Then you shouldnt have brought it up.

Rial Vestro wrote: You're the one who keeps getting stuck on the irrelivant issues.

Why do you do that.

Because you bring up irrelevant points.

Why do you do that????

Secondly, if you bring up irrelevant points you should expect someones going to bring challenge.

Rial Vestro wrote:No it doesn't.

Yes it does

Rial Vestro wrote: Again, would you use a product you knew was defective?

Again your assuming it would be viewed as a defect.

And if it couldnt be rectified your damn right they would keep useing them.

At that point they were depended on them.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Yes it was.

No it wasnt.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:You said that they wouldn't care about what happens to their product after it was sold which is fine except that the Quintessons themselfs were allso useing the products.

And they still wouldnt care about them.The Quints used the ones they either couldnt sell or they used them till they sold them.

You're missing the point. The concept of them not careing about the defects after the robots are sold would only make sence if they weren't useing the robots themselfs. How hard is that to understand. I agree that they wouldn't care about another race but the simple fact that they used them as well would make it seem like they didn't care about themselfs either.

That would be like knowing a product you made could be potentially harmfull but you're going to use it anyway. Not just sell it, but USE IT.

Hey this gun exsplodes when fired. Can't fix that problem oh well we'll sell it anyway. I'm going hunting this weekend I'm going to take one of these guns with me. Hey I only have one arm now but that's OK.

DO YOU GET IT YET! It would be freaking stupid to use a product you knew had defects and because of that the consept of "we don't care about the consumers" doesn't make any sence. It would make perfect sence if the robots weren't in use till after they were sold but not when the Quintessons are useing them before selling them. THAT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

Rial Vestro wrote:the Quints were owners of their own robots and they most likely knew the products were defective so why would they continue to use them?

Assumptions again.

A] there no reason to assume they would have considered it a defect.

B] theres no reason to assume that even if they thought it was a defect that they could do anything about it.

C] theres no reason to assume that they didnt try to fix it with more programming.

A. Anything that allows a product not to function as programed is a defect. Free Will falls into that catigory.

B. Even if they couldn't that still doesn't exsplain why they would USE the defective product.

C. I never assumed they didn't.

Rial Vestro wrote: Why the hell do you think I've posted the question "Would you use a product you knew was defective?" so many times. A question BTW which you have ignored multiple times

I havent ignored it at all.

I keep telling you that the question itself is based on a few assumptions........

That's ignoreing it. How you're supose to respond to a question is to ANSWER IT which you have not done because you know I'm right.

A] that the Quints would have noticed the defects

B] that it would have been considered a defect

C] that they could do anything about it

Thats why the question is flawed, because the question itself relys on facts not in evidence.

And the simple fact is that if the Quints couldnt do anything to rectify the issue, yes they would continue building,useing and selling.

They were making to much money to stop.

A. How can you not notice? The robots were under Quintesson controll for years before the rebellion. There's no way the defects could go unnoticed for that long. It would only talk a few months to notice with the least definitive personalitys.

B. Anything other than what it's programed for IS a defect.

C. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT! It does not matter if they could do anything to fix it or not. What matters is that they USED defective products.

The simple fact is that if the Quints couldn't do anything to fix the issue they would have continued building and selling but they WOULD NOT use their own products.

Rial Vestro wrote:And I'll say this again.

Anything that was not intentinally programed into them would be seen as defect. The Johnny 5 comparison.

A] you didnt say that before.

B] you just said if it was intentional it was a defect.

Which just isint logical.

I'm assuming you made a typo.But even that is a piss poor comparison.

A. Yes I did say that before, multiple times in fact. I've said it EVERY SINGLE TIME you have said they might not see it as a defect.

B. Yes I did make a typo. I've fixed it in this reply.

How is compairing one sentiant robot to another a piss poor comparison? I'm compairing two things that are the same. They're different situations because only Johnny 5 was sentiant where the entire race of Transformers were sentiant. But even still the Quintessons would of reacted to the Transformers the same way Johnny 5's creators reacted to him only the Quints probly wouldn't have cared or not belived it was true sentiance like the Johnny 5 makers did eventually.

Rial Vestro wrote:That's a preddy safe assumetion. "Hey robot, go clean the windows. But I'm afraid of hights. What did you say?" "Hey robot kill him. Why what did he do to me? What did you say?" Need I go on? The verry moment a robot responds to an order with anything other than what it was programed for it's a dead give away that there's a "defect" in the programming. There's no way that can go unnoticed for verry long if at all.

Your assuming the robot would respond to those request with out complying.

Thats just not likely.Most likely it would just "comply" with the orders to save his own neck.

Now you're assumening that the robots would be afraid of the quints which unless they allready have knowlage that the Quints are capable of dissmantleing them or whatever else a robot would be afraid of there's not reason to belive the Transformers would have any fear of their masters, at least not at first.

At some point some robot had to be dissobediant to which the Quints would of saw it as a programming error and tried to fix it. They would allso test other robots of the same type to make sure the defect was limited to that one bot and not the entire line. If the product could be fixed the most logical thing to do would be to deactivate or destroy the robots. Of course they wouldn't destroy them because they're evil so they'd sell them anyway but they'd still be deactivated till after they were sold and get reactivated on whatever planet they were sold to. If the robots couldn't be deactived out of fear for the defect becomming a bigger problem a few of the bots would have been destroyed anyway and only then could whatever remaining bots learn to fear their masters. Once the Quints thought they had a small number that had allready been activated under controll the most logical finnal step would be to try and sell them as quickly as possible and not activate any more till after selling them.

Rial Vestro wrote: There's just no way something like that could go unnoticed for as long as it did.

Now your assuming it went un-noticed.

No YOU are the one who said they may not of noticed not me. That was a reply to something YOU have said multiple times even in this post you have said it. I never have. That's YOUR assumption.

Rial Vestro wrote:I said earlier that it wouldn't be recognized as free will but would be noticed a programming glitch and yes it would be easily recognizeable. I have several examples of it earlier in this post and several others which you seem to keep ignoreing.

Because none of them are on point.

Theres no such real world comparison and any from other fictions are different because of the story being told by the writter.

You want a real world comparisons???

People have a tendicy to ignore problems till they can no longer be ignored.

People are arrogant,conceedit,full of them selfs, secure in the fact that they are the masters of all they survey.

This is true of individual people and large groups of people like those in charge of companies.

These kind of issue are normally look at as being odd and not the norm.

It would have gone over looked for years.

Ignored for decades.

Covered up for centuries.

And by the time they were ready to acknowledge it ,it would have been too late.

If you want a case that more on point from a different fiction????

Look twards the original "Planet of the Apes" movies.

First of all, WTF Planet of the Apes? How does a movie that has absolutly NOTHING to do with robots have any comparison to what we're talking about? Johnny 5 is the closest other fiction to Transformers. Hell someone else even made a Terminator comparison which even that is closer to what we're talking about but Planet of the Apes? That has absolutly NOTHING to do with this conversation. I am compleatly baffled as to how you can even attempt to compair the two.

Now that's out of the way...

You'll notice I have put a couple things you said in bold. These two statements contridict eachother.

1. The first statement is a refrence to things I have said that would fall into the catigory of the second statement.

2. First statment "Because none of them are on point." "them" in this statement refers to examples of situations which...

Second Statement "people have a tendicy to ignore problems till they can no longer be ignored."

3. The examples I gave in earlier posts can no longer be ignored.

There I've stated the same thing 3 different ways, hope one of them reads clearly enough for you. (I'm preddy sure the first one is going to be missinterpreted.)

Rial Vestro wrote:A. The Quints were useing the robots before they were sold elsewhere so that's not an assumetion that would be a fact.

Thats an assumption.

There is not one shred of evidence that ever said the Quints used them "BEFORE" they sold them.

WTF? 2 posts ago you agreed with that statement now all the sudden you're saying something completly different. WTF? I just got whiplash from reading that.

Not one shred of evidence my ass, you know damn well there is PLENTY of evidence. I've said it in earlier posts and you agreed to it before now so don't go pulling that ****.

Rial Vestro wrote: The quints were around them the entire time from when the first transformer was made till the rebellion when the Transformers took over Cybertron and drove the Quints off the planet. Someone had to have noticed in that time period.

More assumptions.

The last sentence could be an assumention but the rest was all well known FACT. It was shown in the freaking show whenever they did flash backs or time travel to before the Transformers had controll of Cybertron. The only part that wasn't shown was what I said in the verry last sentence.

Rial Vestro wrote:C. Why wouldn't it be a negitive?

Any number of reasons.

1] could open a new market for retail sale

2] could help in production

3] could be seen as a bonus

Why would it automatically be a negative???

Because they could be dissobediant. The same reason keeping organic slaves is a negative. (other than just being morally wrong which the Quints wouldn't of cared about anyway.)

I'm getting rather tiard of repeating the same things over and over again and the way I see it you're either being stupid or ignoerant neither of which is like you normally so I'm going to assume you're on drugs and aren't reacting to them well.

Rial Vestro wrote:D. Again, they were useing the robots. They might not have cared about the consumers but how could not care about themselfs. Again why I keep asking, would you use a product you knew was defective?

Answered this a dozen times.

No you haven't. What you have done is what politions are most well known for. Giveing a reply that sidesteps the question without ever really acknowageing it. Basically ignoreing it completely but with more work.

It's a simple yes or no question to which the answer should be "NO" The point of it being that the "they don't care about the consumer" agument only applys if they don't use their own products. If they use their own product they would have to be included in with the consumers who they don't care about. So what you're really saying is if you made a gun that could blow your arm off when you pull the trigger you would use it anyway because you don't care about the consumer but it's not the consumer useing the product at the time so you don't care about your own arm either.

Rial Vestro wrote:If quality, then they wouldn't want it to be the same. If Quantity, of course they could. All that would be nessisary is to wright the programs they wanted for different models and then download the programs into each model. That doesn't even take a super computer we have that technoligy in real life, how do you think your computer was programed?

Your just not getting it.

Look at all the later creations of the Quints.

The Sharkticons
The Aligatorcons.

None of them were as smart or intellectually or personalty diversified as the Autobots and the Decepticons.

And I believe the reason was the lack of Vector Sigma.

I dont think they had the ability to create robots of the same programing level with out Vector Sigma and I think thats why they wanted Cybertron back so baddly.

I think they wanted to be able to created robots as smart as the TFS but try to control their wills.

No, you're not getting it. What you're saying has no logic to it. You've said before that the quints weren't even strong enough to keep organic slaves which I agree with. But the logic fails when you think they can keep free willed robotic slaves. Now we're back into the basics of this argument which is that robots are stronger than organics so if you really belive that the Quints aren't strong enough to keep an organic slave it doesn't make any sence that you would think they could keep a slave that is larger and stronger than any organic.

My entire argument may have been based on a few assumetions but they were the most logical possibilitys. Your entire argument has been based on senceless contridictions.

Rial Vestro wrote:Usefull how? I think it removes all usefullness from them.

Have you ever heard of "the house slave"???

I've talked about slaves before but you put "the house slave" in quotes so I'm going to assume you're talking about a movie and say no.

Rial Vestro wrote:Your point?

Yep

That wasn't a yes or no question, I still have no idea what the hell you were talking about.

Rial Vestro wrote:Um... that seems rather ignorant of the facts. The Quints were in at least 1 war that we know of and who's to say they weren't in others. Every race ingages in war at some point.

What was that war you ask? Well we've only mentioned it about 100 times in this conversation. The Rebellion, the Quintessons were at war with their creations and lost said war.

I wouldnt call that a war.

But either way it doesnt go against what I said earlier.

That's a matter of opinion. The Transformers rebellion is easily comparible to American war with Britton for our "freedom". The Transformers and Cybertron would be America and the Quints would be the red coats the only difference being that the Transformers didn't come to Cybertron from Quintessa. But it was a war no less where one side was fighting for their freedom from the other.

Rial Vestro wrote:And as I said abouve weather they were selling them to other quints or just keeping them is irrelivant.

Then you shouldnt have brought it up.

To be perfactly honest. I don't even remember ever bringing it up in the first place and even if I did I dropped the subject long ago, you're the one who's fixated on it.

Rial Vestro wrote: You're the one who keeps getting stuck on the irrelivant issues.

Why do you do that.

Because you bring up irrelevant points.

Why do you do that????

Secondly, if you bring up irrelevant points you should expect someones going to bring challenge.

That's not what I asked. What I asked was why do you fixate on something I've said ONCE and never brought up again insted of on current issues that I end out haveing repeat multiple times before you ever reply to them.

Rial Vestro wrote: Again, would you use a product you knew was defective?

Again your assuming it would be viewed as a defect.

And if it couldnt be rectified your damn right they would keep useing them.

At that point they were depended on them.

Anything that goes agenst the desired programming would be viewed as a defect. That's not an assumeption that's a simple fact. I was going to say this earlier but I thought it was mean and deleted it but at this point I don't see any other way to get through to you so I'm sorry but for someone who claims to have a better understanding of how a manufacturing buisness works you can't seem to even grasps the most simple concepts.

I find this rather odd that you're able to go into all this complex detailing about how the company is run and things that I admittly don't understand but you can't understand more simple concepts like if I know a gun is going to exsplode in my hand I'm going to use it anyway.

The way you've been talking it's like someone who designs cloths for a liveing but can't even dress themselfs. It's like someone who knows how to do long division but some how can't add 1 + 1. Like someone who can tear a computer apart, rebuild it better than it was but doesn't know how the use the computer.

Actully I found a video like that one you tube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8rKFtmlVvY Twards the end the dad starts talking about a bunch of complex computer stuff that I don't even understand and I don't think the son did either and yet he doesn't even know how to download a file.

Oh I got another one. Someone who knows how to build a working clock from scratch but can't tell time.

OK I'm done now, the point is I find it amazeing that you can understand the complex stuff but can't even grasp the simple things.

Rial Vestro wrote:You're missing the point. The concept of them not careing about the defects after the robots are sold would only make sence if they weren't useing the robots themselfs. How hard is that to understand. I agree that they wouldn't care about another race but the simple fact that they used them as well would make it seem like they didn't care about themselfs either.

No your missing the point, and it because you cant get around your own "baseless assumptions".

There is absolutely no reason to assume that the Quints would have recognized the issue at hand until it was far to late.

There is absolutely no reason to assume that the Quints would have seen the issue as a defect.

Remove those 2 assumptions from your thinking and your questions answer themselfs.

Rial Vestro wrote:
That would be like knowing a product you made could be potentially harmfull but you're going to use it anyway.

Not just sell it, but USE IT..

Just like people do every day.

People still smoke,drink, use guns, cars ,motorcycles........

We use fossil fuels to power our lives while killing the planet, poisons as beauty treatment, little blue bills that increes our heart rates and blood pressures to "enhance" our sex.

The list go's on and on.

Rial Vestro wrote: DO YOU GET IT YET! It would be freaking stupid to use a product you knew had defects and because of that the consept of "we don't care about the consumers" doesn't make any sence. It would make perfect sence if the robots weren't in use till after they were sold but not when the Quintessons are useing them before selling them. THAT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

DON'T YOU GET IT?!?!?!

Its nothing new.People have been useing and selling potentially harmfull products since FOREVER.

Defects or not people will use anything that gives the appearance of a convenience or an improvement to life.

Rial Vestro wrote:
A. Anything that allows a product not to function as programed is a defect. Free Will falls into that catigory.

Nonsenses.

Viagra was designed [programed] as a drug to help with high blood pressure.

It was considered a bonus when they learned it helped with erectile dysfunction.

Sometimes an added feature thats not designed [programed] is seen as a plus and not a defect.

BTW "free will" hardly fits the category you spoke of.

Simple fact is anything that goes against its designs would not automatically be seen as a defect.

The issue would be evaluated for its positives and negatives before it was determined if it was a defect or a lucky break.

Durring that time production and use of the product would continue.

Rial Vestro wrote:
B. Even if they couldn't that still doesn't exsplain why they would USE the defective product.

The fact that they were depended on the robots by then does.

Rial Vestro wrote:
C. I never assumed they didn't.

Your arguments indicate otherwise.

Rial Vestro wrote:That's ignoreing it.

Far from it.

If the questions are based on facts not in evidence then the questions are flawed to begin with.

Rial Vestro wrote: How you're supose to respond to a question is to ANSWER IT which you have not done because you know I'm right.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!

I have answered it.

Your just ignoring the answer because you realise how baseless the question was.

And thanks for making me laugh....its been a while.

Rial Vestro wrote:
A. How can you not notice? The robots were under Quintesson controll for years before the rebellion. There's no way the defects could go unnoticed for that long. It would only talk a few months to notice with the least definitive personalitys.

Assuming again.

Your assuming that the robots wouldnt have been trying to hide the issue.

Rial Vestro wrote:
B. Anything other than what it's programed for IS a defect.

False....as explained above.

Rial Vestro wrote:
C. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT!

You did.

Rial Vestro wrote: It does not matter if they could do anything to fix it or not.

Then what would you have them do???

Rial Vestro wrote: What matters is that they USED defective products.

Assuming it was viewed as a defect.

And we use harmful products every day.....why expect any less from the Quints???

Rial Vestro wrote:
The simple fact is that if the Quints couldn't do anything to fix the issue they would have continued building and selling but they WOULD NOT use their own products.

Nonsense.

As I keep pointing out we use products that can be harmful every day.

Rial Vestro wrote:
A. Yes I did say that before, multiple times in fact. I've said it EVERY SINGLE TIME you have said they might not see it as a defect.

What ever buddy

Rial Vestro wrote:How is compairing one sentiant robot to another a piss poor comparison?

Because that was a family friendly story told to show the best in humanity.

Which is a very unrealistic way to view the issue at hand.

Rial Vestro wrote:Now you're assumening that the robots would be afraid of the quints which unless they allready have knowlage that the Quints are capable of dissmantleing them or whatever else a robot would be afraid of there's not reason to belive the Transformers would have any fear of their masters, at least not at first.

Its not an assumption, its story fact.

We've seen a few indications that the early robots were very afraid of their Quint masters.

We were even shown an example of one robot that rebeled and was recycled on the spot for doing so.

The fear on the other robots was apparent.

Rial Vestro wrote:No YOU are the one who said they may not of noticed not me. That was a reply to something YOU have said multiple times even in this post you have said it. I never have. That's YOUR assumption.

No I'm assuming neither case.

I let the facts speak for them selfs.

Rial Vestro wrote:First of all, WTF Planet of the Apes? How does a movie that has absolutly NOTHING to do with robots have any comparison to what we're talking about? Johnny 5 is the closest other fiction to Transformers.

This is my point about you not having a good imagination and not seeing the big picture.

We're not talking about creations and robots, were talking about creating a "slave race" that learned the value of freedom and learned to rebel and how those in charge of the slaves didnt notice the problemt till it was too late.

And in that "Planet of the Apes" is a far closer comparison that Jonny five or Terminator.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Now that's out of the way...

Hardly.

Rial Vestro wrote:1. The first statement is a refrence to things I have said that would fall into the catigory of the second statement.

2. First statment "Because none of them are on point." "them" in this statement refers to examples of situations which...

Second Statement "people have a tendicy to ignore problems till they can no longer be ignored."

3. The examples I gave in earlier posts can no longer be ignored.

There I've stated the same thing 3 different ways, hope one of them reads clearly enough for you. (I'm preddy sure the first one is going to be missinterpreted.)

Sorry but I dont understand what your asking of me here.

Rial Vestro wrote:
WTF? 2 posts ago you agreed with that statement now all the sudden you're saying something completly different. WTF? I just got whiplash from reading that.

Not one shred of evidence my ass, you know damn well there is PLENTY of evidence. I've said it in earlier posts and you agreed to it before now so don't go pulling that ****.

Not at all.

There is evidence the Quints "used" robots.

There is no evidence theu used the robots "before" they started selling.

Rial Vestro wrote:The last sentence could be an assumention but the rest was all well known FACT. It was shown in the freaking show whenever they did flash backs or time travel to before the Transformers had controll of Cybertron. The only part that wasn't shown was what I said in the verry last sentence.

No the entire statement was an assumption.

We dont know how much time the Quints spent in the presence of their creations.

In most "mater and servant" relationships the master spends very little time with his servants.

Rial Vestro wrote:Because they could be dissobediant.

Key word "COULD"

Which is why your entire argument fails.

Because its based on assumptions and coulds.

Rial Vestro wrote:
I'm getting rather tiard of repeating the same things over and over again and the way I see it you're either being stupid or ignoerant neither of which is like you normally so I'm going to assume you're on drugs and aren't reacting to them well.

And I'll assume your off your drugs because your replys are far more idiotic then normal.

Rial Vestro wrote:No you haven't.

yes I have

Rial Vestro wrote:

It's a simple yes or no question to which the answer should be "NO"

Why should the answer be no.

We as a people use harmful products every day.

Why expect any better from the Quints????

Rial Vestro wrote:No, you're not getting it. What you're saying has no logic to it. You've said before that the quints weren't even strong enough to keep organic slaves which I agree with. But the logic fails when you think they can keep free willed robotic slaves. Now we're back into the basics of this argument which is that robots are stronger than organics so if you really belive that the Quints aren't strong enough to keep an organic slave it doesn't make any sence that you would think they could keep a slave that is larger and stronger than any organic.

No your not getting it.

Its not an issue of strength or lack of it.

Its an issue of arrogance and laziness.

By the time they realised the problem, The Quints had grown to arrogant in their believed superior intelligence and to lazy in their lives to think that the robots posed a real threat.

They just wouldnt have thought that their slaves would rise against them.

Which BTW is something a great many tirants and dictators have in common.

Rial Vestro wrote:
My entire argument may have been based on a few assumetions but they were the most logical possibilitys. Your entire argument has been based on senceless contridictions.

No sorry but your entire argument is based on hindsight.

Its based on what "YOUR THINK" is logical useing the info you have after the fact as a bases for the argument..

Your ignoring history, basic human nature and the most likely outcomes of both.

History proves you wrong on all counts.

Slave masters have a habit of feeling superior and arrogant to the point of their own demise.

Human nature proves you wrong on all points.

People will use a harmful product as long as it appears to present the person with a modern convenience.

Rial Vestro wrote:I've talked about slaves before but you put "the house slave" in quotes so I'm going to assume you're talking about a movie and say no.

No its not a movie.

The "house slave" is a term given by other slaves.

This slave was treated differently then other slaves.

He lived in the main house with his master, he was fead better foods, he was educated [a bit anyway].

In most cases this "house slave" believed he was special, that he was better then the other slaves, some believed they werent slaves at all.They believed they were part of the family.

And in that regard they served as "slave supervisors".They handled the other slaves, they gave them orders, whipped them when they failed.

Thats how a "house slave" because useful.

And thats how a select few robots with free will can become usefull.

Treat them better, make them feel like part of the family, then put them to work as "slave supervisors" of the other slaves.

Rial Vestro wrote:That's a matter of opinion. The Transformers rebellion is easily comparible to American war with Britton for our "freedom". The Transformers and Cybertron would be America and the Quints would be the red coats the only difference being that the Transformers didn't come to Cybertron from Quintessa. But it was a war no less where one side was fighting for their freedom from the other.

Its not that much of an opinion and compareing the rebellion to the civil war is in poor taste.

And heres why.

We dont know if the Quints fought back.

Granted it seems logical that they did but we dont know if they realy fought back.

For all we know the TF's ran them off pretty quickly with a series of well planned attacks.

Rial Vestro wrote:To be perfactly honest. I don't even remember ever bringing it up in the first place and even if I did I dropped the subject long ago, you're the one who's fixated on it.

I'm not fixated on it at all.

You just keep bringing it back up to try to save face.

Rial Vestro wrote:
That's not what I asked. What I asked was why do you fixate on something I've said ONCE and never brought up again insted of on current issues that I end out haveing repeat multiple times before you ever reply to them.

I answered the issue once.

Your stuck on it because you realise how stupid of you it was to bring it up in the first place.

If you want to drop it then do so already.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Anything that goes agenst the desired programming would be viewed as a defect.

Thats already been proven false.

Rial Vestro wrote:OK I'm done now, the point is I find it amazeing that you can understand the complex stuff but can't even grasp the simple things.

Your analogizes suck.

Simple fact is anything that goes against its designs would not automatically be seen as a defect.

The issue would be evaluated for its positives and negatives before it was determined if it was a defect or a lucky break.

And again durring that time production and use of the product would continue.

this is rediculous.\

there is a long history of defective products still being used (ford pinto, firestone tires) alot of times its motre cost effective to suffer the losses. the new iphone make a high pitched noise but they still sell them. And russians would never sell weapons to former enemy's. Like the quints cared about each other. Also you assume tf's didn't try to hide sentience or that it didn't gradually come. Rial you stick by "because" as an answer.

i don't know why you think quints have some absurd quality control standard and are big cuddly lovey business men. curel, uncaring, and hateful describes them a whole lot better

they are cruel and dont give a f***. slave captor don't care about the slaves aslong as they move. if they don't obey, they get tortured and sold. buyer beware.

also an intelligent slave could be useful. there are a variety of reasons to give slaves sentience, look at the movie bicentennial man.

Name_Violation wrote:this is rediculous.\

there is a long history of defective products still being used (ford pinto, firestone tires) alot of times its motre cost effective to suffer the losses. the new iphone make a high pitched noise but they still sell them. And russians would never sell weapons to former enemy's. Like the quints cared about each other. Also you assume tf's didn't try to hide sentience or that it didn't gradually come. Rial you stick by "because" as an answer.

i don't know why you think quints have some absurd quality control standard and are big cuddly lovey business men. curel, uncaring, and hateful describes them a whole lot better

they are cruel and dont give a f***. slave captor don't care about the slaves aslong as they move. if they don't obey, they get tortured and sold. buyer beware.

also an intelligent slave could be useful. there are a variety of reasons to give slaves sentience, look at the movie bicentennial man.

The problem here is his ignorance and his inability to acknowledge it.

He always gets into arguments about topics he has very little knowledge and insight about, does very little research into, and comes up with these improbable scenarios that only seem intelligent from the outside.

All the while he ignores the facts and in some cases, like vthis one, ignores history and basic human nature.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Name_Violation wrote:this is rediculous.\

there is a long history of defective products still being used (ford pinto, firestone tires) alot of times its motre cost effective to suffer the losses. the new iphone make a high pitched noise but they still sell them. And russians would never sell weapons to former enemy's. Like the quints cared about each other. Also you assume tf's didn't try to hide sentience or that it didn't gradually come. Rial you stick by "because" as an answer.

i don't know why you think quints have some absurd quality control standard and are big cuddly lovey business men. curel, uncaring, and hateful describes them a whole lot better

they are cruel and dont give a f***. slave captor don't care about the slaves aslong as they move. if they don't obey, they get tortured and sold. buyer beware.

also an intelligent slave could be useful. there are a variety of reasons to give slaves sentience, look at the movie bicentennial man.

The problem here is his ignorance and his inability to acknowledge it.

He always gets into arguments about topics he has very little knowledge and insight about, does very little research into, and comes up with these improbable scenarios that only seem intelligent from the outside.

All the while he ignores the facts and in some cases, like vthis one, ignores history and basic human nature.

I know. i watch you 2 go at it all the time. I try and stay out of it because almost anything i have to say gets said anyway. But this is rediculous. Never mind history and case examples, it all happend uniquely and origionally rials way and there can be no other compairison apparently. he must have got the GOOD history book.

Name_Violation wrote:I know. i watch you 2 go at it all the time. I try and stay out of it because almost anything i have to say gets said anyway. But this is rediculous. Never mind history and case examples, it all happend uniquely and origionally rials way and there can be no other compairison apparently. he must have got the GOOD history book.

Indeed.

He also have a very limited imagination.And for a guy who claims to be an actor and a writter it seems odd that he cant see the big picture or how certin stories are related to others.

I'm sure you saw how the "Planet of the Apes" analogy I presented related to the debate at hand but some how it flew right over his head.