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sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Rial Vestro wrote:You're missing the point. The concept of them not careing about the defects after the robots are sold would only make sence if they weren't useing the robots themselfs. How hard is that to understand. I agree that they wouldn't care about another race but the simple fact that they used them as well would make it seem like they didn't care about themselfs either.
No your missing the point, and it because you cant get around your own "baseless assumptions".
There is absolutely no reason to assume that the Quints would have recognized the issue at hand until it was far to late.
There is absolutely no reason to assume that the Quints would have seen the issue as a defect.
Remove those 2 assumptions from your thinking and your questions answer themselfs.
Rial Vestro wrote:That would be like knowing a product you made could be potentially harmfull but you're going to use it anyway.
Not just sell it, but USE IT..
Just like people do every day.
People still smoke,drink, use guns, cars ,motorcycles........
We use fossil fuels to power our lives while killing the planet, poisons as beauty treatment, little blue bills that increes our heart rates and blood pressures to "enhance" our sex.
The list go's on and on.
Rial Vestro wrote: DO YOU GET IT YET! It would be freaking stupid to use a product you knew had defects and because of that the consept of "we don't care about the consumers" doesn't make any sence. It would make perfect sence if the robots weren't in use till after they were sold but not when the Quintessons are useing them before selling them. THAT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE!
DON'T YOU GET IT?!?!?!
Its nothing new.People have been useing and selling potentially harmfull products since FOREVER.
Defects or not people will use anything that gives the appearance of a convenience or an improvement to life.
Rial Vestro wrote:A. Anything that allows a product not to function as programed is a defect. Free Will falls into that catigory.
Nonsenses.
Viagra was designed [programed] as a drug to help with high blood pressure.
It was considered a bonus when they learned it helped with erectile dysfunction.
Sometimes an added feature thats not designed [programed] is seen as a plus and not a defect.
BTW "free will" hardly fits the category you spoke of.
Simple fact is anything that goes against its designs would not automatically be seen as a defect.
The issue would be evaluated for its positives and negatives before it was determined if it was a defect or a lucky break.
Durring that time production and use of the product would continue.
Rial Vestro wrote:
C. I never assumed they didn't.
Your arguments indicate otherwise.
Rial Vestro wrote: How you're supose to respond to a question is to ANSWER IT which you have not done because you know I'm right.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!
I have answered it.
Your just ignoring the answer because you realise how baseless the question was.
And thanks for making me laugh....its been a while.
Rial Vestro wrote:A. How can you not notice? The robots were under Quintesson controll for years before the rebellion. There's no way the defects could go unnoticed for that long. It would only talk a few months to notice with the least definitive personalitys.
Assuming again.
Your assuming that the robots wouldnt have been trying to hide the issue.
Rial Vestro wrote:B. Anything other than what it's programed for IS a defect.
False....as explained above.
Rial Vestro wrote:C. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT!
You did.
Rial Vestro wrote: It does not matter if they could do anything to fix it or not.
Then what would you have them do???
Rial Vestro wrote: What matters is that they USED defective products.
Assuming it was viewed as a defect.
And we use harmful products every day.....why expect any less from the Quints???
Rial Vestro wrote:The simple fact is that if the Quints couldn't do anything to fix the issue they would have continued building and selling but they WOULD NOT use their own products.
Nonsense.
As I keep pointing out we use products that can be harmful every day.
Rial Vestro wrote:How is compairing one sentiant robot to another a piss poor comparison?
Because that was a family friendly story told to show the best in humanity.
Which is a very unrealistic way to view the issue at hand.
Rial Vestro wrote:Now you're assumening that the robots would be afraid of the quints which unless they allready have knowlage that the Quints are capable of dissmantleing them or whatever else a robot would be afraid of there's not reason to belive the Transformers would have any fear of their masters, at least not at first.
Its not an assumption, its story fact.
We've seen a few indications that the early robots were very afraid of their Quint masters.
We were even shown an example of one robot that rebeled and was recycled on the spot for doing so.
The fear on the other robots was apparent.
Rial Vestro wrote:No YOU are the one who said they may not of noticed not me. That was a reply to something YOU have said multiple times even in this post you have said it. I never have. That's YOUR assumption.
No I'm assuming neither case.
I let the facts speak for them selfs.
Rial Vestro wrote:First of all, WTF Planet of the Apes? How does a movie that has absolutly NOTHING to do with robots have any comparison to what we're talking about? Johnny 5 is the closest other fiction to Transformers.
This is my point about you not having a good imagination and not seeing the big picture.
We're not talking about creations and robots, were talking about creating a "slave race" that learned the value of freedom and learned to rebel and how those in charge of the slaves didnt notice the problemt till it was too late.
And in that "Planet of the Apes" is a far closer comparison that Jonny five or Terminator.
Rial Vestro wrote:1. The first statement is a refrence to things I have said that would fall into the catigory of the second statement.
2. First statment "Because none of them are on point." "them" in this statement refers to examples of situations which...
Second Statement "people have a tendicy to ignore problems till they can no longer be ignored."
3. The examples I gave in earlier posts can no longer be ignored.
There I've stated the same thing 3 different ways, hope one of them reads clearly enough for you. (I'm preddy sure the first one is going to be missinterpreted.)
Sorry but I dont understand what your asking of me here.
Rial Vestro wrote:WTF? 2 posts ago you agreed with that statement now all the sudden you're saying something completly different. WTF? I just got whiplash from reading that.
Not one shred of evidence my ass, you know damn well there is PLENTY of evidence. I've said it in earlier posts and you agreed to it before now so don't go pulling that ****.
Not at all.
There is evidence the Quints "used" robots.
There is no evidence theu used the robots "before" they started selling.
Rial Vestro wrote:No, you're not getting it. What you're saying has no logic to it. You've said before that the quints weren't even strong enough to keep organic slaves which I agree with. But the logic fails when you think they can keep free willed robotic slaves. Now we're back into the basics of this argument which is that robots are stronger than organics so if you really belive that the Quints aren't strong enough to keep an organic slave it doesn't make any sence that you would think they could keep a slave that is larger and stronger than any organic.
No your not getting it.
Its not an issue of strength or lack of it.
Rial Vestro wrote:That's a matter of opinion. The Transformers rebellion is easily comparible to American war with Britton for our "freedom". The Transformers and Cybertron would be America and the Quints would be the red coats the only difference being that the Transformers didn't come to Cybertron from Quintessa. But it was a war no less where one side was fighting for their freedom from the other.
Its not that much of an opinion and compareing the rebellion to the civil war is in poor taste.
And heres why.
We dont know if the Quints fought back.
Granted it seems logical that they did but we dont know if they realy fought back.
For all we know the TF's ran them off pretty quickly with a series of well planned attacks.
Rial Vestro wrote:To be perfactly honest. I don't even remember ever bringing it up in the first place and even if I did I dropped the subject long ago, you're the one who's fixated on it.
I'm not fixated on it at all.
You just keep bringing it back up to try to save face.
Rial Vestro wrote:That's not what I asked. What I asked was why do you fixate on something I've said ONCE and never brought up again insted of on current issues that I end out haveing repeat multiple times before you ever reply to them.
I answered the issue once.
Your stuck on it because you realise how stupid of you it was to bring it up in the first place.
If you want to drop it then do so already.
Rial Vestro wrote:The issue would be noticed within a matter of months.
Rial Vestro wrote:Anything that goes goes agenst what a product was created for is a defeact.
Rial Vestro wrote:Again you're missing verry simple facts.
Rial Vestro wrote:You say there's no reason to assume that the Quints would have recognized that there was an issue untill the rebellion.
Rial Vestro wrote:You say there's no reason the Quints would have seen the issue as a defeact.
Rial Vestro wrote: Again, there is a reason. Even in real life anything that allows a product to opperate in any way other than what it was intended for is a defect.
Rial Vestro wrote: Now I can allready see how that could be missread so I'm going to exsplain it more detail. That's not to say that if you make something to do one thing and it does that AND something else that wasn't intended but rather when it does something else and NOT what it was intended for.
Rial Vestro wrote: Transformers were intended to follow orders without question. The simple fact that they had free will allows them to dissobey orders which would be a defect.
Rial Vestro wrote: If it does what it's supose to AND something else that wasn't intended then and only then would it be seen as a bonus.
Rial Vestro wrote:That's a rather poor compairison.
Rial Vestro wrote:and people use them because they're more interested in the positive effects of the product then the crappy after effects.
Rial Vestro wrote:The crappy after effects of haveing the Transformers as slaves comes from the product not working as intended.
Rial Vestro wrote:A dissobediant robot offers only negitive and nothing positive.
Rial Vestro wrote:See first responce.
Rial Vestro wrote:Yes but free will would be seen as a defect because it does not allow for the Transformers to opperate as functioned.
Rial Vestro wrote:I'll break this down yet again.
Why do you want to build a robot in the first place?
Rial Vestro wrote:To be a slave.
Rial Vestro wrote:If all you need is a slave then why not just inslave some "inferrior" organic race?
Rial Vestro wrote:Because of these two things free will in robots could not be seen as a bonus and would automatically be a defect because it goes agenst the whole reasoning for building them in the first place and has just as much use as something that allready exsists for much cheaper.
Rial Vestro wrote:
No it doesn't
Rial Vestro wrote:Oh really?
Rial Vestro wrote:You've answered it.
Rial Vestro wrote: It's a yes or no question
Rial Vestro wrote: hence no you have never answered it.
Rial Vestro wrote:Again, there's verry little reason the robots would want to hide the issue. They would have to learn what fear is first before they could be afraid.
Rial Vestro wrote:
True....as explained above.
Rial Vestro wrote:
Prove it.
Rial Vestro wrote:they're smart enough to hold off production till the "bugs" can be worked out
Rial Vestro wrote: Can you rephraise the question, I don't know what you're asking.
Rial Vestro wrote:Because our products actully work as intended.
Rial Vestro wrote:Right, and a kids show is a much more realistic way to view the issue.![]()
Rial Vestro wrote: that way. My argument even said "at least not at first."
Rial Vestro wrote:Funny, that's what I'm doing.
Rial Vestro wrote: Erlier you even argued that there was no proof Quints kept Transformers as slave right after saying that they did and then went back and forth like that for a few posts.
Rial Vestro wrote:Wow you're way off track.
Rial Vestro wrote: It's not about creating a slave race.
Rial Vestro wrote: It's about creating something that would be BETTER than a slave. Something that isn't capable of becomming dissobediant which is the only reason you would even want a robot a slave. If a robot is just as reliable as a human than what the hell is the point? There is no point, the product becomes completly useless and dangerous. Again, a simple fact which you seem unable to grasps.
Rial Vestro wrote:It's basically like telling someone their shirt can not be blue because it's blue.
Rial Vestro wrote:
*bashing head on key board.*
Rial Vestro wrote:Oh my freaking gawd. How much more contridicting can you get. You posted 2 sentences one right after another both about the same subject but the first one says there's no evidence and the second says there is. Make up your mind.
Rial Vestro wrote: Wheather or not they used the robots before selling isn't even an issue
Rial Vestro wrote:
If it's not an issue then why did you bring it up?
Rial Vestro wrote:You're mixing wars now. The Civil War was years after the war I mentioned and was the Northern states of America vs. the Southern states of america.
I was talking about WAY BACK when America was still a bunch of Brittish coloines trying to get indipendance from Britton.
Rial Vestro wrote:Yes we do.
Rial Vestro wrote: Time travel episode with A-3. That was set when the rebellion first started and we saw someone fireing weapons at the troops being lead by A-3 which would mean the Quints were fighting back or some how got someone else to fight back for them but either way, they were in a war.
Rial Vestro wrote:Hell we're still technically at war with terrorists but have they even done anything sence 9-11.
Rial Vestro wrote:
I'm not bringing anything up.
Rial Vestro wrote:No, I brought up the issue once if even that I still don't even remember saying it. You've replyed to it multiple times.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
Rial Vestro wrote:You had another contridiction where in the same line of text you showed an example of learning fear and followed it by implying that you're born allready afraid.
Rial Vestro wrote:Every fear is the same way. Everyone is born fearless and fear is learned through exsperience. Alot of exsperiences that cause fear are repressed into the subcontious but they still had to be learned and you would not be afraid of whatever it was you're afraid of if you never had the exsperience where you learned to be afraid of it.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
WHAT WE KNOW
The Quints created the TF's
TF's had free will
The Quints sold and used them as slaves
WHAT WE DON'T KNOW
Why
Why
Why
Do you now see why all your statements are illogical and baseless????
Because you have come up with answers to these questions , and none of your answers are based on evidence.
You assumed that the Quints created the TF's to be slaves.
We dont know if that was the "REASON" the TF's were created.Yes we know thats what ended up happening but we dont know what the original reason for their Creation was.
You assumed that "Free Will" was an unintended defect.
We dont know if thats true.Fact is with out knowing the real reason they were created in the first place we cant even begin to assume wether "free will" was intentional or unintentional.
We just dont know why they were originally created.Was it an experiment into AI research, was it one Quint scientist dream, was it part of a way to make totally robotic bodies for themselfs.....the what if's are endless.
You assume that the Quints intended to sell/use their creations.
And while that proved to be true at some point, what was the Quints original intentions for the Robots???
Where they ment to help rebuilt Quint society after some disaster, where they ment to rebuilt Quint economy, did the Quints just have a desire to create.
So your questions and assumptions are baseless because they all assume the fact that the TF's were created to be slaves from the start.And there is no evidence to back that up as the "REASON" they were created.
Its just as likely that one Quint scientist, who was working on AI research, created the first TF's for some other purpose.Maybe something positive.He may have intended to give them free will as part of his work.
Then "Big Buisness" type Quints hear of his work and corrupt it by some means.Just like it tends to happen in the real world.
Rial Vestro wrote:You had another contridiction where in the same line of text you showed an example of learning fear and followed it by implying that you're born allready afraid.
Theres no contradiction in that statement what so ever.I never said that the robots that witnessed the indecent "learned" fear on that they.
I said they would have "understood" it.
here read the section again.....
We were shown a scene in which 1 robot disobeyed and he was recycled on the spot.
The robots that witnessed that would have understood fear.
Fear is a primal emotion.
Fear is not taught, its one of the first emotions every one experiences.
The robots would have feared their creators by nature.
You really need to improve on your reading and comprehension skills.
Rial Vestro wrote:Every fear is the same way. Everyone is born fearless and fear is learned through exsperience. Alot of exsperiences that cause fear are repressed into the subcontious but they still had to be learned and you would not be afraid of whatever it was you're afraid of if you never had the exsperience where you learned to be afraid of it.
Nice story but ....NO.
Fear itself is primal, everyone is born with fear.As a matter of fact brain scans of new born children indicate is the "fear section" of the brain that is most active just after birth and may be the primary reason children cry when they emerge.
Whats learned is "what" to be afraid of.
And that comes about by experance.And I'm sure the first time a robot saw a Quint working on an other robot they would have learned to fear their creators.
Its natural to fear those that have dominion over you.
Rial Vestro wrote:To be slaves.
Rial Vestro wrote:not relivent to the issue why.
Rial Vestro wrote:To make money and that's what they were built for.
Rial Vestro wrote:If they were ment to be something other than slaves they wouldn't of been used as slaves sence they're not all that usefull as slaves to begin with.
Rial Vestro wrote:Most logical and has base. You're illogical and baseless. You're a freaking Klingon for fricks sake, not a drop of logic in you.
Rial Vestro wrote:There is plenty of evidence.
Rial Vestro wrote: They were used as slaves so they were built to be slaves. If they had a different intended use they wouldn't be slaves.
Rial Vestro wrote:Why would you build something for one purpose that it's good for then use it for something else that it isn't any good for?
Rial Vestro wrote:
Simple fact, there are uses and reasons for wanting free willed robots but slavery is not one of them so why were they being used as slaves?
Rial Vestro wrote: Simple answer that's what they were built for.
Rial Vestro wrote:There is no other logical exsplination. They're slaves. There's no more too it than what we saw.
Rial Vestro wrote:No they're really not. If you look at what we know you can easily eliminate every other possibility and there simple is no other logical reason for free willed robots to used as slave unless the free will was not intentional and they were designed as slaves. Any use for intentionally creating free will in machines would not lead to slavery because there is no use for a slave with free will. The simple fact that they were used as slaves means the only possible reason they could of been built is to be slaves and the free will would be a defeat that allows them to go agenst their programming and dissobey their masters.
Rial Vestro wrote:There simply is no other logical exsplination. It's not an assumetion, it's the most logical possibility after illiminateing every other possibility.
Rial Vestro wrote:
Proccess of elimination. When nothing else makes any sence the one thing that's left must be the answer.
Rial Vestro wrote:I assumed no such thing and it's not even relivant to the conversation
Rial Vestro wrote: Irrelivant.
Rial Vestro wrote:The simple fact that they were used as slaves is evidence that was why they were created.
Rial Vestro wrote: Never thought I'd have to point out the obvious but damn, you're overlooking everything lately.
Rial Vestro wrote:Even given that scinario the "big buisness" type Quint would have to remove the free will from the robots programming before they could sell it as a slave.
Rial Vestro wrote:
Just fact it, every other possibility is illogical given the facts that we know.
Rial Vestro wrote:
You talk like there isn't enough evidence to suport anything but there is.
Rial Vestro wrote: There's enough evidence in what was shown to suport that...
A. Free Will was in fact a defect. Robots who the quints knew were effected because they became dissobediant were destroyed and/or recycled.
Rial Vestro wrote:
B. Transformers were slaves and were allways ment to be slaves or A would not apply.
Rial Vestro wrote:
There is no evidence to suport any other possibility.
Rial Vestro wrote:That's learning. They would not of known the fear before that event.
Rial Vestro wrote:
You're implying that they would allready have been afraid before haveing ever witnessed the event while at the same time saying they learned it after witnessing the event.
Rial Vestro wrote:The scene you speak of would teach any witness what fear is.
Rial Vestro wrote: No one would have any reason to fear before witnessing such an event.
Rial Vestro wrote:
The robots witnessing have LEARNED fear. Something they would not of know about before the event.
Rial Vestro wrote:Fear IS taught. Fear can not be known untill AFTER it has been exsperienced. Within this same line you have implyed that fear has to be exspericed first which is correct but you started it by saying it's allready known.
Rial Vestro wrote:
Robots would NOT have feared their creators by nature. There's no reason for them to be afraid if they haven't had the exsperice yet.
Rial Vestro wrote:
You need to stop speaking in Oxi-morons.
Rial Vestro wrote:
You have it a little backwards there.
Rial Vestro wrote:Without anything to be afraid of there can't be fear.
Rial Vestro wrote:I kinda think babies are treated like crying sacks of meat right after their born rather than tiny little people.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Rial Vestro wrote:Why would you build something for one purpose that it's good for then use it for something else that it isn't any good for?
Now your assuming they werent good as slaves at the start.
Rial Vestro wrote:Simple fact, there are uses and reasons for wanting free willed robots but slavery is not one of them so why were they being used as slaves?
There could be any number of reasons....corruption from big business being the top among them.
Rial Vestro wrote:There is no other logical exsplination. They're slaves. There's no more too it than what we saw.
In your opinion.
So far you havent provided a lic of evidence.
Rial Vestro wrote:No they're really not. If you look at what we know you can easily eliminate every other possibility and there simple is no other logical reason for free willed robots to used as slave unless the free will was not intentional and they were designed as slaves. Any use for intentionally creating free will in machines would not lead to slavery because there is no use for a slave with free will. The simple fact that they were used as slaves means the only possible reason they could of been built is to be slaves and the free will would be a defeat that allows them to go agenst their programming and dissobey their masters.
Not an ounce of that was logical.
The fact that they were "used" as slaves is not evidence of the "reason" they were created.
We were never given and reason as to why they were created.
Rial Vestro wrote:Proccess of elimination. When nothing else makes any sence the one thing that's left must be the answer.
That would be funny if it wasnt so pittyful coming from you.
What have you eliminated????
What have you disproved as a possibility????
Heres one to try to eliminate.....prove to me how its not possible that the first TF wasnt created by a Quint scientist who had the same goals as Doctor Noonien Soong [from Star Trek TNG] the man who created Data.
Rial Vestro wrote: Never thought I'd have to point out the obvious but damn, you're overlooking everything lately.
No the problem is you cant see whats 2 steps in front of you.
You just cant see past what you think you've been told....and for the rest you just make things up.
Simple fact is we were never told the reasons why they were created.
We know how they were used but we have no clue why the first one was ever built.
Rial Vestro wrote:Even given that scinario the "big buisness" type Quint would have to remove the free will from the robots programming before they could sell it as a slave.
Assuming that they "could".
Which is yet an other assumption on your part.
"Big buisness" may have found a way to mass produce the robot or even have forced the original creator to build a mass production factory but there is no reason to assume they would have been able to "redesign" the specs.
Rial Vestro wrote: There's enough evidence in what was shown to suport that...
A. Free Will was in fact a defect. Robots who the quints knew were effected because they became dissobediant were destroyed and/or recycled.
Thats not evidence that the issue was seen as a "defect".
Thats only evidence that the delt with disobedient robots.
So thats one fail for you.
Rial Vestro wrote:B. Transformers were slaves and were allways ment to be slaves or A would not apply.
A doesnt apply.
The fact that they were slaves i not evidence that they were originally created to "BE" slaves.
So thats 2 fails for you.
Rial Vestro wrote:There is no evidence to suport any other possibility.
There is no evidence period.
Rial Vestro wrote: No one would have any reason to fear before witnessing such an event.
Nonsense.
I doubt that was the first event of disobedience.And even before that event the Quints were cruel to their slaves.
They would have already known fear.
Rial Vestro wrote:The robots witnessing have LEARNED fear. Something they would not of know about before the event.
Assumptions
What to fear is learned but fear itself is primal.
Rial Vestro wrote:Robots would NOT have feared their creators by nature. There's no reason for them to be afraid if they haven't had the exsperice yet.
Fear of those with dominion over you is natural.
And the actions of the Quints would have instilled fear.
Rial Vestro wrote:You need to stop speaking in Oxi-morons.
No I need to stop speaking TO a Moron.
Rial Vestro wrote:Without anything to be afraid of there can't be fear.
Thats incorrect to.
Just like every other emotion,Fear does not require logic or actual cause and effect.
People fall in love with images, with pictures, with the idea of what and who the other person is.
People are afraid of the dark, of whats under the bed, of whats in the closet, of the next day, of commitment.
None of these are logical or have a real cause.
Rial Vestro wrote:There again you're continueing to overlook the same obvious fact yet again.
Rial Vestro wrote: Free Will makes any slave hard to control.
Rial Vestro wrote: If it was intentinally given to them they would of known how to remove it
Rial Vestro wrote: The only good slave is one without free will.
Rial Vestro wrote:With Transformers free will was either intended in which case they would of known how to remove it from their programming
Rial Vestro wrote:You're just blind to it.
Rial Vestro wrote: But there is only one reason they could have been created.
Rial Vestro wrote: Slaves with free will are unpredicatble, dangerous, and therefore useless.
Rial Vestro wrote: All of which leads to the only possible conclusion that they were intended to be slaves from the start and that free will was never intended to be part of their programming.
Rial Vestro wrote:It's process of elimination. Useing what we do know to figure out what we don't. A child can do it.
Rial Vestro wrote:Data was intentinally built to be more human than machine and to have free will. Transformers were not and there is evidence of this in the cartoon that you yourself have even pointed out.
A scene where a robot became dissobediant and was recycled on the spot for doing so. Now if they were intentinally programed that way like data was the Quints would have no need to do that. The programming would have simply been removed.
Rial Vestro wrote:I'm going to call you Watsen.
Rial Vestro wrote: I'm far from being Sherlock Holms but I'm sertainly closer to it than you are.
Rial Vestro wrote:We're not looking for more questions, we're looking for answers. The more possible answers you can find the more logical the sinerio is and the more questions it creates the more your logic fails.
Rial Vestro wrote:Holly crap, that's gotta be the most illogical thing you've ever said. If a quint intentionally designed a robot with free will why in the hell would he not know how to remove that programming?
Rial Vestro wrote:If they're going to buy the design and the programming specs from the scientist they're going to either learn how it opperates or have the scientist do the work on the mass production.
Rial Vestro wrote:Now maybe they stole the designs and programs from the scientist and couldn't remove the free will program themselfs but then they'd still end up forceing the scientist to remove the program for them.
Rial Vestro wrote:That IS evidence that the issue was a defect.
Rial Vestro wrote: WHY did they did they deal with dissobediant robots. I just told you why. It was a defect.
Rial Vestro wrote: WHY did they did they deal with dissobediant robots.
Rial Vestro wrote:There IS evidence.
Rial Vestro wrote:
Weather or not that was the first time they witnessed it was not the issue.
Rial Vestro wrote: I said "such an" event not "that same event"
Rial Vestro wrote:When they first learned fear is irrelivant what is relivant is that they did in fact have to learn fear.
Rial Vestro wrote: If they were never treated badly by their Quintesson masters there would be no reason to fear them.
Rial Vestro wrote: You can't fear something for no reason.
Rial Vestro wrote: You never specified that difference in your original statement
Rial Vestro wrote:What I've been talking about this whole time is the fear of.
Rial Vestro wrote: How would you know they have domination over you unless you've allready been or seen someone of your race be punished for dissobediance?
Rial Vestro wrote:You know, I've avoided saying this for so long but now you've just gone and blantantly insulted me so, you're an idiot.
Rial Vestro wrote: You see multiple sinerios but fail to see how they don't apply to the facts we were given. You're trying to stick a square peg into a round hole because you can't see the square hole sitting right next to it or the round peg in your other hand.
Rial Vestro wrote: To you the rebellion and everything before it never happened
Rial Vestro wrote: and the Transformers have allways been a free race because that's the only way the statement that there is no evidence would actully be true. Every single scene we saw is evidence.
Rial Vestro wrote:That's incorrect.
Rial Vestro wrote:Every emotion has a reason behind it.
Rial Vestro wrote: Pain is an emotion.
Rial Vestro wrote: No one feel pains for no reason.
Rial Vestro wrote: Pain is either externally (accidental or intentianl) or internally (health or age).
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Rial Vestro wrote: But there is only one reason they could have been created.
No there are an endless amount of possible reasons for why they were created.
People wrote:zombybunnie: N_V scares me...I no longer wish that my pants transformed
Burn:Anyone notice how much of a boring party pooper N_V is? He doesn't join in the fun, he's spent the last few years with dodgy builds feeding XP to the Autobots, and he sure as heck doesn't spam.
disruptor96: I forgot how insane you were.
Rial Vestro wrote:I'll make this really short.
Rial Vestro wrote:Only if you ignore every single event leading up to the rebellion and the rebellion itself.
Rial Vestro wrote:See my way the only question we can not answer is "Why would they use robots with free will?"
Rial Vestro wrote:Your way you end up CREATING MORE questions than answers. Every single other possibility that you have brought up this entire debate is illogical because non of them answer questions, they create more questions.
The goal is to try and find answers with the information we are given, this is logical and is what I am doing.
What you are doing is randomly thowing out impossible sinirios which answer nothing and creates more questions when paired with the information we are given. This is illogical and pointless.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
Counterpunch wrote:Is this even on topic anymore?
Someone tell me, there's no way I'm reading all of that.
Name_Violation wrote:
In communist russia topic reads you
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:We can take it to pm if you like.
People wrote:zombybunnie: N_V scares me...I no longer wish that my pants transformed
Burn:Anyone notice how much of a boring party pooper N_V is? He doesn't join in the fun, he's spent the last few years with dodgy builds feeding XP to the Autobots, and he sure as heck doesn't spam.
disruptor96: I forgot how insane you were.
Name_Violation wrote:sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:We can take it to pm if you like.
do not want.
I keep tabs on this clam bake. Unfortunately the best result looks to be an agree to disagree. It doesn't look like either side is budging on their veiw point.
but by all means please, continue,...
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:The true goal is to try and find answers that not only fit the info we were given, but also that those answers seem likely ,reasonable and most importantly realistic.
Rial Vestro wrote:
Short and simple reply.
There's a difference between ASKING questions and CREATING questions.
Rial Vestro wrote:How can you ever even hope to find any answers if all you're doing is creating more questions.
Rial Vestro wrote:The most logical answer is useually the simpleist one.
Rial Vestro wrote: However we do still have 1 question without an answer and I'm betting if we found the answer to that it might actully change what I belive to be the most logical answers to all the other questions.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Every question ever asked is the creation of the person asking it.
Rial Vestro wrote: However we do still have 1 question without an answer and I'm betting if we found the answer to that it might actully change what I belive to be the most logical answers to all the other questions.
Which question are you referring to again?
Rial Vestro wrote:Not at all.
Rial Vestro wrote:
Asking a question is just that, asking.
Then you're given an answer and it's the answer that has the possibility of creating more questions.
It goes like this. Someone asks a question about something they have observed or been told about that they don't fully understand. Someone else answers the question and either the conversation ends there or the answer just causes more questions to be asked.
Once you have all the answers there's no need to ask any more questions. Questions are only good for finding answers and most of the answers we have allready so there's no point in asking the question.
The Quintessons were useing Trasformers as slaves and you're asking what the Transformers were created for. It's kinda backwards to even ask that question when the answer is right there in front of you.
You seem to think they could of been created for some other purpose other than what they were used for and the simple fact is there's absolutly no evidence to suport that they were ever ment for anything else.
Don't you think that if they had some other intended purpos that it would of been mentioned durring Rodimus Prime's history lesson with the Matrix?
When you ask a question, you're looking for answers. When you create a question, the answers have allready been provided and you're only seeking attention.
Why did the Quintessons use the free willed robots?
More spicifically, you've allready pointed out that a robot was seen being recycled on the spot for being dissobediant which means the issue was recognizable and known about.
No matter how much you want to argue that the may not of known about the issue you're the one who provided evidence that they in fact did know about it.
So the question remains is why they continued useing them when they knew about the risk involved?
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:You seem to think they could of been created for some other purpose other than what they were used for and the simple fact is there's absolutly no evidence to suport that they were ever ment for anything else.
Your forgetting their first creations and the other experiment being conducted on Cybertron by a Quint before the TF's were created.
3 different projects were conducted on Cybertron and only 2 of them involved creating a separate race.
That is evidence that suggest "slaves" werent their primary goal.
Don't you think that if they had some other intended purpos that it would of been mentioned durring Rodimus Prime's history lesson with the Matrix?
No, and why would it???
The history lesson contained no info about where the Quints originally came from,it contained no info about the other projects the Quints conducted on Cybertron.
No matter how much you want to argue that the may not of known about the issue you're the one who provided evidence that they in fact did know about it.
I argued it was possible they didnt know about the problem till it was too late to do anything about it.That example or anything you have claimed doesnt change that possibility that they didnt know till it was too late.
Rial Vestro wrote:Not sure what other exsperiments you're refering to but their first creations before the Transformers were the Transorganics or Technorganics, one of thoughs terms...
And who says they weren't ment to be slaves allso? You know before they went bisserk and ripped one of their creator's faces off.
Maybe because the Matrix gave the entire history of the Transformers race.
Which is rather irrelivant.
The only reason the Quints were mentioned at all is in relation to creating the Transformers and what they were created for would be part of that relation.
How does them recycleing a robot for dissobediant not prove that they were aware that the robots could be dissobediant?
You're speaking in oxi-morons again. You've basically just said that the scene dissproves it's own exsistance.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:How does them recycleing a robot for dissobediant not prove that they were aware that the robots could be dissobediant?
You make it sound like you have proof that the event of the "recycling" accrued early on.
On the contrary there is evidence to support the idea that the indecent with the disobedient robot accrued a long time after the first TF's were created.
And thats what I mean by it being "too late" to do anything about it.
You're speaking in oxi-morons again. You've basically just said that the scene dissproves it's own exsistance.
The seen is an indication that the Quints did not deal with the issue till they past the point of no return.
It was already "too late" at the time of that indecent.
Rial Vestro wrote:How is that?
Nothing I said has anything to do with WHEN that event happened and when it happened has nothing to do with weather or not it DID happen.
That's rather contridicting yet again.
If they recycled a robot for being dissobediant then they were in fact "doing something about it"
it was not too late to do anything about it untill the rebellion started
There's no reason to belive that one case that was shown was the only case.
The simple fact is that as long as these "insidents" were kept issolated to a few individual robots the Quints were still capable of doing something to prevent the rebeillion from happening.
No it wasn't too late.
So you're sugesting that the rebellion started right when that one robot was recycled.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Nothing I said has anything to do with WHEN that event happened and when it happened has nothing to do with weather or not it DID happen.
weather it "DID" happen was never in question.
it was not too late to do anything about it untill the rebellion started
It was already too late by the time they were out numbered by robots with free will and the ability to grow past their original programing.
And that was long before the rebelion started.
The simple fact is that as long as these "insidents" were kept issolated to a few individual robots the Quints were still capable of doing something to prevent the rebeillion from happening.
I completly disagree.
Short of shutting down every robot simultaneously the Quints had very little hope of preventing the rebelion.
Thats my point of saying it was already too late.
The robots had already grew beyond their original programing.The disobedience proves that. And althou the Quints had the ability to shut them all down at once I dont believe they would have.
Theres no indication that the Quints ever considered that the robots would learn how to conspire together.
So you're sugesting that the rebellion started right when that one robot was recycled.
Actually no.
I believe that the Rebelion took place 100's ,maybe 10000's, of years after the scene we were shown.
But my point of the issue being past the point of no return has to do with what the robots were learning.
Once the Robot were capable of by bassing their original programing it was too late.
And I dont just mean "free will" and "sentiance".Yes the terms are synonymous some of the time but not always.
Even with personalities and free will I'm sure their core programing still dominated most of their lives.
But once they learned to bypass that programing, learned the value of freedom, learned to conspire, this is when it was trully too late for the Quints to really do anything about it.
By that time the Quints had grown too arogrant, lazy and dependent on their slaves.They wouldnt be willing to just shut them all down at once.
And shutting them all down at once was really the Quints only hope at preventing a rebelion.
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