The Energon Pub

We've all seen the stories before. Experts claim there is no way that Christ was born in the middle of winter and most agree that they are probably right.

As for the reason why we celebrate Christmas on December 25th, it was essentially for propaganda. History shows that the clergy decided early on to celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25th to absorb stubborn pagan worshipers who celebrated the Sun God, Sol Invictus' birthday on the 25th. This tactic succeeded and many pagans did convert to Christianity during the time of the Roman Empire.

So rather than debate the accuracy of that assessment, I want to debate whether or not Christmas should be moved. And if so, what date do you suggest would be the most accurate?



For me, I'm split. I realize that it is pretty stupid that we have been celebrating the birthday of someone for about 2000 years on the wrong day. However, since we have been doing it so long, I don't think it would work so well to change it. Especially when you consider how depressing the winters would become with one less holiday. Of course, we did move New Years from April 1st to January 1st, so maybe it could work.

I think the biggest problem is that your average person truly believes that Jesus was born on December 25th.

Anyone who would tell them otherwise that "no, sorry, Jesus was born closer to spring, it says so in the bible" would most likely be called a heretic, devil worshiper among other unsavory things.

While I am generalizing, unfortunately this is a close summation of what would happen. When posed with something that they haven't been used to for decades, any religious person tends to get a bit ornery.

Personally I'm split as well when it comes to Christmas. The holiday has always been more about Santa than Jesus.

All in all, December 25th is just a day. What makes the day anything is the thought behind what "occurred" on that day, and if you choose to celebrate someones birth, be it the birth of your savior, or a friend or family members on a different day. More power to you.

What date would you move it to? How would you arrive at a date that would be anymore accurate? In fact, the one thing Dec.25th has going for it as Christmas Day is the fact we KNOW it isn't the actual date being celebrated.

Well astronomers have looked at the descriptions given in the bible and charted the month that Jesus was most likely born in.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/chris ... claim.html

I'd say leave it. For a lot of people, Christmas is a tradition. Since Christ was definitely not born in winter (how can a baby be born in a freezing manger?) you'd be removing a lot of the "character" of Christmas.

One of the things people appreciate about Christmas is the snow. It's always been one of the only universally acceptable snow days (just about everyone hates winter other than on Christmas and maybe New Year's). And there go all the Christmas songs that talk about snow. I know it's kind of a dumb reason, but it's still a reason.

Besides, it would be hard for people to adjust to celebrating such a huge holiday on another day. Even if the holiday were moved, I'd say most families would end up celebrating it on 12/25 anyway. So even if it were moved, it wouldn't really be moved.

Christmas trees just wouldn't be the same anymore. I know the tree doesn't really have a lot to do with winter, but the Christmas tree just... does. Hard to explain, but it's just a feeling. Christmas tree goes with winter. So do Christmas lights.

Don't know how the economy would go with Christmas moved. Maybe it would adjust after a few years, but would having Christmas sales at another time of year have any bad effect? Maybe the winter blues contributes to wanting to buy things and going away for holidays.

Christmas just seems like a nice capper to the year. It would seem weird to celebrate it at any other time, even though it's technically inaccurate to do it on 12/25.

And, anyway, does it really matter what day he was born on? If you suddenly found out your birthday was wrong, wouldn't your birthday still be your birthday in your heart?

Sorry. This turned out longer than I expected.

Christmas we we know it is the modern bastardisation of mid-winter solstice 21st December - when the old year officially ends and the new year begins - like Fender said above.

For the years 'Christmas' was banned during the Cromwellian era, the hopelessness of winter just made everyone kill themselves - people need something to look forward to in the dark days and there's not a civilisation on the planet that doesn't have a mid-winter celebration of some sort just to keep the populace going.

Even if the celebration of Christ's birth was to be moved to whatever date astrologists prefer (June 17th currently) we would still need a mid-winter festival to stop the chronically depressed from hibernating/topping themselves every winter.

But at least then the pagans could have their holiday back, they cant be any more debauched than what happens to it currently.

Keep Chritmas as is, especially the secular version of it, centering on good will and giving.

Add a holiday in the summer to celebrate the Nativity.

Whatcha think?

Chrismas hasn't been about the birth of Christ for years. Over the last few hundred years, It has been slowly changed from the pagan winter soltice to the accepted birth of Christ in order as a means of power and control. (much in the same way the Bible has been rewriten to help keep the populace in line to the church and crown. There is a reason the accepted bible is tagged as the King James Editon)

Regardless of the humble beginnings of the commercialization of Christmas, from good will to all men, to giving presents as the "Wise Men" gave to Jesus, to the creation of the Father Christmas Mythos, rewarding good children. In the last 100 years more or less as Society has moved away from organized religion and we have seen the rise of large corperations shifting advertising and distrubution models from local to global. Books and clergy as primary sources of information crushed by the powers of printing presses-to-radio-to-television, has altered everything so far from the source that the source is no longer the driving force anymore.

The two best examples of this are Santa Claus and Thankgiving/Boxing Day Shopping.

Of all the characters in the Father Christmas Mythos with different but similar images of a older gentleman drapped in festive garb deliving presents for good children, the most predominant is now Santa. And where many of the others have their basis on known historical figures or colective memories, Santa was created for America by the Coca-Cola Company. A corperation is responcible for the figure millions of children see as the central figure of Christmas.

Again the basis of gifting on christmas was based on the story of the three wise men, and showing good will to all men. This over time became the Christmas tradition for many of sitting with your family and giving presents. In itself this is a still a happy time that commercialism shows it's face on packaging, and Disney/sports programing, but in recent times we have been beset by images of hordes of people crashing thru Wal-marts, news reports that large chains need holiday sales to avoid bankrupcy and the hot items that if people don't buy for their kids they'll risk ruining x-mas forever. Add to this Boxing Day, (A holiday to give items you no longer need to the less fortuate) now a day off to shop for the items people forgot to buy you.

These and other stories that prove that despite Christmas being one of the few times of the year that Religion is still brought front and center, that Christmas as the commercial property trumps everything. It is set in the bank accounts and ledgers of Toy & electronic companies, It sets the ad revenue for TV, Radio, Newpapers and Magazines. Retail units count on it to cover revenue into the end of the fiscal year.

These are the powers that now control in control of the holiday season and it is doubtful they would all be on the same page about moving Christmas into another part of the year. For years Americans have celebrated Thanksgiving at the wrong time of the year without concern, so why should continuing to keep X-mas in December be a problem anyways?

Me, Grimlock! wrote:(his reasons)

I think this sums it up!

Omega Charge wrote:

Me, Grimlock! wrote:(his reasons)

I think this sums it up!

yup

I'm an atheist but do believe that there once was a man called Jesus Christ it's been proven as a fact.
I don't care why Christmas is celebrated I just like the atmosphere of it for me it's be best about winter.

But I am all for an accurate Jesus birthday celebration if you want to celebrate his birthday then please do so on his actual birthday gives us another holiday.

Think about it from Jesus's point of view. If we keep Christmas where it is, he gets two sets of presents. If we move it to his real birthday, he'll get one set and people saying "I know it's your birthday as well, so I spent a bit more on it." Yeah, right.

Won't someone think of what Jesus wants? And for that matter, stop wearing crucifixes. Do you really think Jesus will want to see one if he returns?

Dead Metal wrote:I'm an atheist but do believe that there once was a man called Jesus Christ it's been proven as a fact.
I don't care why Christmas is celebrated I just like the atmosphere of it for me it's be best about winter.

But I am all for an accurate Jesus birthday celebration if you want to celebrate his birthday then please do so on his actual birthday gives us another holiday.

He summed it up perfectly.

Besides, what would happen to Frosty the snowman? Dusty the sandman?and Has anyone cleared this with santa? whats he got to say about this? it become more about santa than jesus.

I say leave it alone, it already starts in July if they move it people will celebrate it twice and it'll take up the whole year.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:I say leave it alone, it already starts in July if they move it people will celebrate it twice and it'll take up the whole year.

According to a number of Home Funishing stores Christmas is already celebrated a second time in june/july already, so it's not that huge a stretch.

I've seen stuff sayign Christ was probably born around January, August or May.

As it is, Christmas stopped being about anything religious years ago, and since the majority of people can't do change, then I say leave it be, and the let the idiots have their day at the shops. I'd wager christains would just march on as is... well, the sane ones that is. THe nutty ones who actually beleive it was Jesus' "birthdate" might have issues.

OF course, the shop keeps wouldn't have a steady income before people grog up on New Years.

And we celebrate Christmas in summer down here, there's something horrid, though, about trying to get to the buffet of BBQ meats, pav, and cheesecake when its 37 degrees and humid.

Me, Grimlock! wrote:Christmas trees just wouldn't be the same anymore. I know the tree doesn't really have a lot to do with winter, but the Christmas tree just... does. Hard to explain, but it's just a feeling. Christmas tree goes with winter.

That is because the christmas tree was stolen from another holiday. Same as holly, Santa, Mistletoe & wreaths.

Psychout wrote:Christmas we we know it is the modern bastardisation of mid-winter solstice 21st December

Atleast someone knows what they are talking about.

Lunar-tic wrote:

Me, Grimlock! wrote:Christmas trees just wouldn't be the same anymore. I know the tree doesn't really have a lot to do with winter, but the Christmas tree just... does. Hard to explain, but it's just a feeling. Christmas tree goes with winter.

That is because the christmas tree was stolen from another holiday. Same as holly, Santa, Mistletoe & wreaths.

This is all true. Still, if you're attacking my statement specifically, I didn't say anything about origins. But if you want to bring it up, the tree was worshipped by pagans, but it was St. Bonafice, a Christian, who cut it down. When another tree sprouted up in its place, St. Bonafice took this as a sign from God. The Christmas tree, like it or not, is associated with Christmas. You can talk about origins all you want, but the tinsel, the ornaments, the Christmas tree itself, is so associated with Christmas that all talk of origin isn't going to make it NOT a Christmas symbol. Your argument is like saying that a Ford isn't a symbol of the car because its origins are in the horse and wagon.

Also, the first Santa Claus was a Christian. He might not have intended it to be a Christmas thing, but the tree and Santa are Christian symbols, not exactly something you'd associate with Kwanzaa. I bring up the Christian thing because Christmas is a Christian holiday (yes, I know, its origins are also not in Christianity, but today it's mainly a Christian holiday, like it or not). Mistletoe and wreathes I don't have an answer for, but they're associated with Christmas and we're talking about moving the holiday, not where it came from. What conversation are YOU having?

And, might I ask, by necro-threading this, did you really have anything to add to the conversation?

Lunar-tic wrote::) Atleast someone knows what they are talking about.

Not you, I'd say.

Ok. I believe that christmas day should never have been on dec 25th. And if you are going to have a discussion on whether christmas day should or should not be on this day, then you should be prepared to listen to other perspectives with an open mind and not walk blindly into this. Talk of religious matters is not something that you can just wing or go into ignorantly.

Me, Grimlock! wrote:

Lunar-tic wrote::) Atleast someone knows what they are talking about.

Not you, I'd say.

Maybe you should read this post by Editor. This is someone who had something valid to add to this thread. Someone without their head in the sand.

Editor wrote:Chrismas hasn't been about the birth of Christ for years. Over the last few hundred years, It has been slowly changed from the pagan winter soltice to the accepted birth of Christ in order as a means of power and control. (much in the same way the Bible has been rewriten to help keep the populace in line to the church and crown. There is a reason the accepted bible is tagged as the King James Editon)

Regardless of the humble beginnings of the commercialization of Christmas, from good will to all men, to giving presents as the "Wise Men" gave to Jesus, to the creation of the Father Christmas Mythos, rewarding good children. In the last 100 years more or less as Society has moved away from organized religion and we have seen the rise of large corperations shifting advertising and distrubution models from local to global. Books and clergy as primary sources of information crushed by the powers of printing presses-to-radio-to-television, has altered everything so far from the source that the source is no longer the driving force anymore.

The two best examples of this are Santa Claus and Thankgiving/Boxing Day Shopping.

Of all the characters in the Father Christmas Mythos with different but similar images of a older gentleman drapped in festive garb deliving presents for good children, the most predominant is now Santa. And where many of the others have their basis on known historical figures or colective memories, Santa was created for America by the Coca-Cola Company. A corperation is responcible for the figure millions of children see as the central figure of Christmas.

Again the basis of gifting on christmas was based on the story of the three wise men, and showing good will to all men. This over time became the Christmas tradition for many of sitting with your family and giving presents. In itself this is a still a happy time that commercialism shows it's face on packaging, and Disney/sports programing, but in recent times we have been beset by images of hordes of people crashing thru Wal-marts, news reports that large chains need holiday sales to avoid bankrupcy and the hot items that if people don't buy for their kids they'll risk ruining x-mas forever. Add to this Boxing Day, (A holiday to give items you no longer need to the less fortuate) now a day off to shop for the items people forgot to buy you.

These and other stories that prove that despite Christmas being one of the few times of the year that Religion is still brought front and center, that Christmas as the commercial property trumps everything. It is set in the bank accounts and ledgers of Toy & electronic companies, It sets the ad revenue for TV, Radio, Newpapers and Magazines. Retail units count on it to cover revenue into the end of the fiscal year.

These are the powers that now control in control of the holiday season and it is doubtful they would all be on the same page about moving Christmas into another part of the year. For years Americans have celebrated Thanksgiving at the wrong time of the year without concern, so why should continuing to keep X-mas in December be a problem anyways?

Christmas day originally had nothing to do with Jesus and in this day and age all it has to do with is material possessions. So for true christians I believe that it should be moved. The true birthday should not be ignored. Also if people believe that christmas day should stay, then why not have 2 birthdays for Jesus. He is believed to be the true king of kings, and the son of god, and if the Queen of England can have 2 birthdays then why can't Jesus!

And on a side note. Decorating trees, bringing in fauna into the home (ie. The Christmas Tree (Solsice tree)) and even gift giving were already being used at this time of the year by Pagans a long time before Christianity. Also if you see a picture of Santa in a green robe rather than red and he is decorated with holly then this is not Santa but infact a Pagan god, who was also around a long time before the images of Santa.

Ah the joy of a thread left alone for half a year being re-opened for little rational. Yippee.

First off Santa Claus really has nothing to do with the original topic (the debate of the day of birth by Jesus Christ not being December 25th)

As for his origins two things should be looked at.

a) The familiar image we associate with Santa which comes from a few sources but was primarily locked in the 1930's from advertisements for Coca-Cola. He isn't a sign of Christianity, but one of consumerism and capitalism.

b) While Santa is currently recognized around the world, the character is in itself an amalgam of dozens of gift giving figures from the British Father Christmas, the Dutch Sinterklaas, and many others even including elements of the second ghost in Dicken's A Christmas Carol, and The Norse Deity Odin The All-Father.

The main argument is, despite that many of the gifting figures from the European being derived from Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Myra, who without question is a Christian figure, the clear fact is that Santa (while likely to be a Christian were there a real figure to ask) should not be seen as a Christian figurehead, nor should that be even questioned because (despite any personal beliefs) He is a sign of the better part of Humanity, giving to others, endorsing good will and filling a roll of keeping children in line. (be good or Santa won't come, good boys and girls get toys bad kids get lumps of coal, et al)

eventually it is a moot point anyways because even if the Vatican, or Salt Lake City or some other holy seat of power dictates that after years of research, The birth of Christ is to be celebrated June 8th every year, there will still be a Christmas in December, as with our current society and standards, It would be easier to remove Jesus from Christmas, and break the two into different days than convince everyone (from Christians to Jews, Muslims to followers of Scientology, but most importantly from heads of manufacturing companies to Network Executives) that our yearly bright spot within the bleakest days of winter (at least in the Northern Hemisphere) is being moved simply because somebody in Rome had decided to fix something we know has been busted for decades and most of us couldn't be bothered to be worried about.

So true! Not many people know about Coca-cola's influence. Christmas is completely commercialised.

Christmas is already far removed from Jesus, it would be a good idea to remove Jesus from it completely and give him a day of his own. Christmas can be left to be the day of St Nick, that is all it is to the majority of people anyway.

Lunar-tic wrote:Christmas is already far removed from Jesus, it would be a good idea to remove Jesus from it completely and give him a day of his own. Christmas can be left to be the day of St Nick, that is all it is to the majority of people anyway.

Editor wrote:The birth of Christ is to be celebrated June 8th every year, there will still be a Christmas in December, as with our current society and standards, It would be easier to remove Jesus from Christmas

I don't see this happening at all. Try to move it, and no one will listen. If we unearth some sort of proof of Jesus' birthdate and it said it happened on any other day, people would still insist on celebrating it on Dec. 25th. Like it or not, it's probably going to be on this day forever. Doesn't matter how much Christmas isn't about Jesus anymore.

Jesus has little to do with Christmas now? Ehhhh, I don't know. Maybe. I'd have to think more about it. Sure, for the most part Jesus isn't in it anymore. He's been removed somewhat already, that's for sure. But dig a little into family traditions and you'll have nativity scenes, stories about his birth, Christmas plays, etc. He's in there somewhat. These might not be the reason for the season anymore, but you'll be hard-pressed to find listeners by telling them that Jesus and Christmas shouldn't go together anymore even if that isn't the reason why they're celebrating. I don't see being able to remove him entirely.

Lunar-tic wrote:in this day and age all it has to do with is material possessions.

On the surface, sure, but I'm not one of those people that believes that humankind is all about selfishness. I think you're forgetting about the "goodwill toward all men" thing. Sure, as children, all we think about is presents. Some adults, as well. I'd say it's "mostly" about consumerism, but this isn't true of everyone. To say "all it has to do with is material possessions" is too simplistic. Charities see a rise in giving at Christmas. So do volunteer groups and hospitals. Go to any business and they'll probably have some sort of aid for low income families that the employees donate to. Mine does. (I don't count grocery stores since they're making 100% of the money off these charitable donations.)

Anyway, wow. Okay. So you felt like coming in here and stirring the pot. In your first post you said the Christmas tree was stolen from another holiday, so... what... the tree couldn't possibly be a symbol of Christmas? And snow couldn't be a symbol of Christmas because it wasn't invented for the holiday either. Neither was gift giving or singing. That's like saying the Statue of Liberty isn't a symbol of freedom because the French certainly didn't invent freedom. Did your post refute anything of what I said or were you just in the mood to snipe? Was the reason that I don't know what I'm talking about because you wanted to attack me on a point I didn't even make? I could play the same game by telling you you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the first toy.

In your second post, all you did was lick Editor's boots and imply I was walking blindly into the conversation, had my head in the sand and wasn't prepared to listen with an open mind. And why was that? Because I didn't make points you felt like discussing? All this without specifically responding to anything I said and sounding more than a little hypocritical about it. Did your case-by-case argument there explain how I winged it in this thread?

If you're just going to fling mud and not respond to anything, then oh well. I won't be dragged into this anymore and I'll take my leave. I stand by my original points whether you want to turn them into something else or not: the Christmas tree is still a symbol of Christmas and wouldn't have the same meaning for Christmas if you moved the date, regardless of if you want to drag its origins into this. Trying to say I'm ignorant of or wrong about arguments I didn't even make doesn't change that. Infer whatever you want from what I was saying, my original post is still valid.

But thanks for showing up at the last second. If you're going to attack someone, please at least respond to their arguments, not arguments you make up for them.

Honestly, I think it should stay right where it's at. People all ready have a certain mentality for this time of year. Plus, what about people who don't believe anyways? What reason do they have for moving it? It's tradition to be at this of the year. It makes the most sense economically as well. These are the "holidays" not just day. It's the time when everyone celebrates something. It makes the most sense to do it all at once.

My point was that the reason the christmas tree symbolises winter is because it was a symbol of winter long before christmas and christianity. The period in late dec will always be celebrated even if it is not under the name of christmas. My comment was a statement to show that the reasons that you was giving for christmas being kept in dec was not something that was solely due to christmas. These were traditions before christmas was celebrated! The origins should not be forgotten even if you do not agree with them.

I believe christmas should be moved, but not the celebration in late dec. I believe that it should be celebrated for the right reasons. They can celebrate dec 25th in honour of jesus but they should not claim that this is because it is his birthday when it clearly is not.

How can people put faith into a religion that is lying to them!

I believe it should be moved. If it isn't moved while there is proof that it does not belong on this date then christianity is making a mockery of it's followers.