The Energon Pub

We both watched and enjoyed the 2009 movie and of course our fav. was megatron, cept she liked optimus more but still but a question arose in my mind, if it was possible(and its not cuz its just a cartoon lol) could megatron be "tamed"? Like if someone were to not show any fear to him, which would be hard because he's a frikken monster, and rehabilitate him to be suitable for society do you think it could happen?
AND if you're kinda lost ill tell you how our aruguement went and what was said like this:

We said hi blah, wassup then

Me: soooo me gawts a good question fer ya
Erica: yes?
Me: well say megs was real and say ppl were trying to rehabilitate him to make him you know "friendly" for society...
Erica: wouldn't work he's evil and most likely at the stage he's at he's unstoppable, unchangeable and even if they could it'd take YEARS!
Me: well i get what you mean but what if you were like that dog whisperer dude and like showed no fear and just kept calm and made him think no matter what, you're in charge of every situation.
Erica: Showing no fear to that big thing would be difficult, and not only that if he was being rehabilitated he'd be kept in some underground basement by the gov't and be locked up alot so he'd feel isolated and he'd be pissed off all the time, i mean if you were locked up you'd be pissed off too, they wouldnt try to walk him around the park like a dog.
Me: yeah true but you know me, i fear just about nothing and I think i'd be able to do some hard wirk like that.
Erica: not everyone is like you (lol) no one is as brave, strange or as crazy as you
Me: TRUE HA! But honestly do you really think it'd be THAT HARD to change him, i mean theres no way he was BORN that way, he had to be raised that way or he might've had a f*cked up life growing up and probly was like f*ck it im gonna kill and be mean.
Erica: yeah maybe, but you'd still have to watch and make sure he doesn't try to like swat you across the room or step on you cuz he feels like hurting you, and even then if that were to become reality once you've gotten him out in the public you'd have to be cautious with him.
Me: why ever so?
Erica: Because if YOU were the one rehabilitating him and IF he got into the public he'd be YOUR responsibility. If he so much as ripped out a light poll you'd be responsible for HIS actions. If he killed a dog, even on accident, you'd pay for it or have to sit in jail for animal cruelty.
Me: damn...
Erica: not only that but he could get attatched and over protective of you, if someone were to push you in a playfull way he could attack and possibly kill that person, or he could see a friend hug you and get jelous and scare your friend off. He could possibly be "fixed" but he would have more faults than he had before, and he may not understand all that he does wrong, he may not even understand the world and what it's laws and rules are, and being in public might scare him because he was evil once, so some think he was evil at one time, he'll do it again.
Me: yeah even if he refuses to be mean they'd still accuse him, some just have a typical mind set, not all but some.
Erica: it'd just be difficult, thank god its just a cartoon though.
Me: thats what im sayin!

SO what do you guys think? agree with us or do you have your own opinion?

Megatron would bide his time and appear tamed. He might even exhibit some of Starscream's character traits. But when the opportunity arose, he would destroy his "tamer."

Power does not teach respect. I have no idea what does.

Couple of things:

First of all, very very rarely does anyone actually embrace a self-image of themselves as 'evil'. Hitler, for exmaple, didn't see himself as evil. Mao Tse Tung didn't view himself as evil--you know, so, what's a few (50 million) dead, right? People we now consider 'evil' considered themselves as doing a difficult job no one else had the guts to do--to make everything better. Hitler really thought he was saving Germany. Castro, Cuba. Chairman Mao, China. So I first really kind of reject this simplistic notion that Megatron sees himself as evil.

If he did, it would be unlikely for him to attract and keep so many followers. The very few humans who do view themselves as evil (Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, for example) don't exactly have groupies. Manson is the *possible* exception, but if you read his writings (god help you) he really thinks he's pushing the world in the right direction. Helter Skelter and all that.

As for 'frikken monster', well, I've not won any beauty pageants myself, so I'm not one to judge, but I kinda would imagine that judging someone based on their appearance is kind of...tacky? Wrong? Again, ugly person here, speaking. But maybe Megatron would find you, all pink and squishy and such, pretty damn revolting, too?

Two, that whole 'taming' thing is just...bad. It's every stupid story where the girl dates the 'bad boy' thinking that he'll somehow change out of the Power of Her Love (tm). Considering Megatron probably finds people about the same level we find small urky things (like, say, leeches) chances of that happening? Yeah, good luck.

Not to mention the general dysfunctionality of the idea that someone else is 'responsible' for someone's actions or behaviors. Parents are not ultimately responsible for every decision their children make: you are not responsible for every decision your friend or significant other makes. It's this little thing we post-Enlightenment folks like to call Free Will. Weird.

Nonetheless, the argument you've outlined here is very prevalent in the legions of fanfic. Might I evaluate: very crappy fanfic written by 15 year olds who desperately think that 'X goes for a walk one night and runs into a Robot In Disguise' is a plausible scenario. We generally call them Mary Sue.

Lorekeeper's right: power doesn't *teach* respect. Power teaches fear. And power inevitably breeds challenges to itself.

HK, has cold; tact at critical levels.

hmm good points but i didnt say megatron was a "fikken monster" to say he looked icky, he looks bad ass and tough to me but yeah that is true about everything else. and to be honest showing him something like love, he'd probly be like "wtf are dis lurv thang and what are deeses huggs fer?" he'd swat you across the room like nothing if you tried that. If in all honestly that happened i think mental rehabilitation would work, love wont do ****, mainly because somthing like megatron wouldnt know what love exactly is and probably keep himself isolated further from human interaction. honestly i don't believe in using "love" for any rehabilitation for human or animal, but understanding and being "top dog" can change any mind, if they know you are incorruptable and strong minded you can change and turn any mind really, its not hard...i also learned this from experience i've helped in drug rehabilitaion and canine rehabilitation, it can be difficult dont get me wrong but its not a huge challenge, which is probly why i believe if that thang became real, which i hope to god it wont, and i know it wont...just a toon ^-^ but yeah when you do rehabilitation you feel like you can walk on water dudes!

I think the main problem with hypothesizing the taming/rehabilitation of any Megatron incarnation is that he's apathetic to pretty much everyone except Optimus Prime, who he basically hates in every incarnation. It's not that Megatron doesn't know what is right or wrong. It's that he does know and doesn't care. If someone lacks empathy for others, they'll never truly be able to "turn around".

Another thing to consider is that despite the very human qualities the various writers portray Megatron with, he's an alien and doesn't or rather, shouldn't, think in human terms. His perspective as an alien being is another reason I think there's no real chance at taming/rehab.

I think the problem with Megatron is he doesn't think he's in the wrong. For him, he is a superior life form from a once great empire and he has great powers, the ability to transform into a starcruiser. Once he gets the Allspark, he'll conquer the rest of the galaxy and reduce us to servitude or exterminate us.

Mythos wrote:I think the problem with Megatron is he doesn't think he's in the wrong. For him, he is a superior life form from a once great empire and he has great powers, the ability to transform into a starcruiser. Once he gets the Allspark, he'll conquer the rest of the galaxy and reduce us to servitude or exterminate us.

I am confused by your moral judgment here. Leaders throughout history have had big, sweeping agendas to radically alter the world and the power structure in which they operate: Stalin, Castro, Woodrow Wilson, Hitler, Chairman Mao, FDR, Winston Churchill, President Obama.... Militarily there's Alexander the Great, Patton, Bohemond (Okay most of you probably don't know him but militarily, he rocked the Crusades) Don't get all knee-jerk offended and I"m not trying to get political--you have to admit that Obama himself said he wanted to 'radically transform' the US. Sometimes the great leader's grand vision works and then people call it good. Sometimes it doesn't work and then people decide it's bad. THEN being the operative word.

It's also mitigated by perspective. When Hitler was killing only other Germans, most of the world was actually still pretty okay with him. Yeah, it's true! Only when he started killing people from other countries--like Poland--did Europe say, hey, that's not right. And even then, not all of Europe--Mussolini's Italy and Vichy France still thought he was pretty neato. Woodrow Wilson most Americans think is awesome. Well, not African Americans--he segregated the Army (which previously had not been), and enforced other segregation rules. Great leader or Wrong? Therefore your black/white 'this is WRONG' perspective is really simplistic.

Sure, as a member of the human race, I'd prefer NOT to be exterminated. I'm pretty sure, though, that that spider I killed yesterday really felt pretty strongly that my anti spider I SHALL RULE THIS HOUSE mentality is pretty wrong--for spiderkind. Am I 'wrong' and 'evil'? To spiders, probably. To you?

Analogy: say the Decepticons are struggling for...energon. That's a classic canon chestnut, right? So, they're looking for energon, and if they don't get it and soon, they'll die. A leader steps up promising them that if they follow him, they'll survive. He is as good as his word, and bingo, they survive. To them, he is "GOOD" because he saved them. To the other beings that had to get shoved aside to help the Decepticons survive, he is 'bad.' Who's right? Not only does Megatron not think he's wrong...so do a bunch of other guys. We call them Decepticons. Read my first post in this thread--NO ONE except psychopaths think of themselves as 'evil' or 'wrong'. And psychopaths don't have followers, in the main.

HK, or, judge not lest ye be judged.

hellkitty wrote:

Mythos wrote:I think the problem with Megatron is he doesn't think he's in the wrong. For him, he is a superior life form from a once great empire and he has great powers, the ability to transform into a starcruiser. Once he gets the Allspark, he'll conquer the rest of the galaxy and reduce us to servitude or exterminate us.

I am confused by your moral judgment here. Leaders throughout history have had big, sweeping agendas to radically alter the world and the power structure in which they operate: Stalin, Castro, Woodrow Wilson, Hitler, Chairman Mao, FDR, Winston Churchill, President Obama.... Militarily there's Alexander the Great, Patton, Bohemond (Okay most of you probably don't know him but militarily, he rocked the Crusades) Don't get all knee-jerk offended and I"m not trying to get political--you have to admit that Obama himself said he wanted to 'radically transform' the US. Sometimes the great leader's grand vision works and then people call it good. Sometimes it doesn't work and then people decide it's bad. THEN being the operative word.

It's also mitigated by perspective. When Hitler was killing only other Germans, most of the world was actually still pretty okay with him. Yeah, it's true! Only when he started killing people from other countries--like Poland--did Europe say, hey, that's not right. And even then, not all of Europe--Mussolini's Italy and Vichy France still thought he was pretty neato. Woodrow Wilson most Americans think is awesome. Well, not African Americans--he segregated the Army (which previously had not been), and enforced other segregation rules. Great leader or Wrong? Therefore your black/white 'this is WRONG' perspective is really simplistic.

Sure, as a member of the human race, I'd prefer NOT to be exterminated. I'm pretty sure, though, that that spider I killed yesterday really felt pretty strongly that my anti spider I SHALL RULE THIS HOUSE mentality is pretty wrong--for spiderkind. Am I 'wrong' and 'evil'? To spiders, probably. To you?

Analogy: say the Decepticons are struggling for...energon. That's a classic canon chestnut, right? So, they're looking for energon, and if they don't get it and soon, they'll die. A leader steps up promising them that if they follow him, they'll survive. He is as good as his word, and bingo, they survive. To them, he is "GOOD" because he saved them. To the other beings that had to get shoved aside to help the Decepticons survive, he is 'bad.' Who's right? Not only does Megatron not think he's wrong...so do a bunch of other guys. We call them Decepticons. Read my first post in this thread--NO ONE except psychopaths think of themselves as 'evil' or 'wrong'. And psychopaths don't have followers, in the main.

HK, or, judge not lest ye be judged.

i knew the minute i saw your name i knew i'd like you, you're intelligent and really awesome about it, you dont beat around bushes and you make your point straight forward I APPLAUD YOU! *hugs* for you friend!

I think Megatron's dominant character trait must be megalomania... mainly because it's in his frelling name. I haven't read many of the newer comics, but I hope that they've not lost sight of that.

Megatron could certainly be dominated, but HK's right... he should see himself as the only one with THE answer to the question of how all life should live... under his control, that is.

Well, we'll put it this way.

Ever heard of sigfried and roy? No? Well, they trained these white tigers and well, one of them turned on him after being "domesticated" for awhile and pretty much ate his face (ala prime in ROTF).

If somehow megatron was "turned" then that's what would happen.

However, like HK says, people who were evil never saw themselves as evil, Megatron is looking to first, save his race. As an ulterior motive he wants to rule the galaxy.

I do believe that Megatron would never be suberserviant to anybody UNLESS it helped him in the long run. Such as ROTF book where he tells the fallen to F off pretty much.

Per the DW series "Prime Directive"

When you try to tame Megatron, you end up on a leash.

To use Bloodlust's analogy further, Megatron could be 'tamed,' but he can and always will be dangerous. He is essentally like a wild animal- amoral, unpredictable and can never have that 'wildness' taken out of him. He believes he is not wrong in what he does, or he doesn't care. He has no conscience. If he did get to 'love' a person, it might end up the twisted, using kind that isn't real love, but is more like a 'love' towards a possesion that is still useful.

I do not think it is possible that Megatron can be 'redeemed,' simply because there was never anything to redeem in the first place.

ponycorn wrote:Per the DW series "Prime Directive"

When you try to tame Megatron, you end up on a leash.

that'd suck, ending up on a leash but LOL! i could see myself doing something like Gir from the invader zim series, running around a tree with my leash running short and snagging myself back LAWLZ!!! or freakin actually acting like a mutt and barking at everything just to piss people off lol that'd be funny.

While I will agree in the real world there are far more shades of gray between good/evil that will vary on perspective of the viewer. However in story telling specially stuff in fantasy/Sci-fi realm we tend to simplify things to reflect a dramatized version of how we preserve the world. Because we looking for good entertainment not real life. Though evil dose exist in real world and what often defines one as 'evil' is actions and intent.

Taking the spider example giving. The spider could have posed a potential harm to you in your home, either through biting or cleanliness. It stands for reasons of survival you would want to eliminate this threat. Your options are varied. You could have caught it in cup and put it outside. Baring being about to talk to the spider and asking it to leave this would be your 'good' option.

You could quickly squish the spider eliminating it but making it's death fast and painless. This would be unfortunate but necessary neutral option, doubt the spider isn't happy, but it still eliminates the threat.

Then you could catch the spider start tearing it's legs out one at time. While doing this you notice it's egg sack. Just for the lark of it you crush the egg sack in front of the spider that is near death and then finally kill it. You then toss it's little spider corpse outside to rot. This is evil.

Back to the original post topic. Yeah I don't think Megs would be a good rehab candidate. The first steps in rehab is acknowledging you have problem and wanting to change. I don't think this would happen...just saying.

Classy

Mythos wrote:I think the problem with Megatron is he doesn't think he's in the wrong. For him, he is a superior life form from a once great empire and he has great powers, the ability to transform into a starcruiser. Once he gets the Allspark, he'll conquer the rest of the galaxy and reduce us to servitude or exterminate us.

servitude? man that'd suck, i mean i can be awesome with serving our president in a way, like abiding laws and voting for him and doing the right things and making good choices, but man under megatron you never know what he'd have you doing, f*** building pyramids and crap, i bet he would have humans doing crap like that, hell i'd be plotting the next rebellion, its in my genes lol, the whole che guevara thing would happen again, only different and me being half cuban that is and always has been a true inspiration to me VIVA CHE! but anyways yeah, me and my homies under servitude would last only for maybe a week then REBELLION!!!!

Megatron isn't a little child, although perhaps he could be likened to a spoiled one. I don't think he can be tamed cos you'd be like "dude, chill man, I'm your friend, you don't need to go around shootin stuff n stuff, we just wanna be your friend!" and he'd be like

KaBOOM you're dead.

Mykltron wrote:Megatron isn't a little child, although perhaps he could be likened to a spoiled one. I don't think he can be tamed cos you'd be like "dude, chill man, I'm your friend, you don't need to go around shootin stuff n stuff, we just wanna be your friend!" and he'd be like

KaBOOM you're dead.

lol that made me giggle, naw you wanna run up to him and give em a big hug and then you'll be thrown a billion feet, Megatron be like "the f*** was that? damn thing hugged me."

Razonable beings cant be changed in a simple way, if the said being dont wanna change. And I doubt Megs would want to change anything. No while he can get every he wants acting as ever.

Mykltron wrote:Megatron isn't a little child, although perhaps he could be likened to a spoiled one. I don't think he can be tamed cos you'd be like "dude, chill man, I'm your friend, you don't need to go around shootin stuff n stuff, we just wanna be your friend!" and he'd be like

KaBOOM you're dead.

honestly me and erica also talked about his parents, i mean he wasnt "born" that way, what if his parents raised him to be like that or like in the dark knight movie, joker was abused and hurt by his father...whos to say megatron didnt grow up with a d*** for a dad as well?

I agree with what hellkitty said. (which she often says alot of what I would, whether she or I should be scared more I'm not sure hehe.) Megatron in the view of himself and other decepticons is a hero, a righteous force fighting for the survivial of his race. He's a mixture of magneto and Doctor Doom hehe. He believes his way is best and refuses allow democracy and due process get in the way of his tyrantical nature.

Optimus Prime, and all the Primes before him have damned his race to a slow painful death in his mind. They put the needs of others before their own to the extreme they sealed the matrix of leadership away and banished the all spark into space, as they seem be squandering oprotuntity for survival. The Primes and autobots desire to protect all life is approaching near suicidal levels. In a way they re just as irrational as the decepticons.

So I can easily see how Decepticons who want to live see Megatron as a source of salvation. I mean they have every right to live, and a soldier ultimately will obey his stomatch before an allegiance to his country if left starving long enough by it.

Megatron allegiance to welfare of cybertron supercedes all other causes. Megatron infact sees himself as Cybertron, as in beast wars his cause and planet are one in the same. We see he actually will do things to prevent his homes destruction, as his MO is to protect his home. After all if its destroyed then he has nothing left to rule.

Megatron and Optimus are opposites of the same coin, but are flawed and right in their own way. Just megatron chooses the path of power, and tramples whatever gets in his way, underminding whatever point he might have had. Prime goal protect others he sometimes is too selfless to point places no value on his own life or those around him. The cause comes first for both of them. Just primes is much easier for those who want to live to go along with with, especially humans since its our planet Megatron more than willing use as a sacrifical lamb for his own planet's welfare.

Most of the comics depict Megatron as a hauty, self-styled patriot of Cybertron. He's quite similar psychologically to Hitler or Tojo of the former Japanese Imperial Empire; the former is engrossed in the superiority of the Cybertronian race, while the latter two feel that his "Aryan/Dai-Nippon" race should be the rightful heirs to the throne of the human race.

Hellkitty has it down pat in her observations. History's "villains" never see themselves as that. They, in fact, are heroes in their own eyes.

Megatron probably thinks Prime is the villain and the traitor, a sentimental weakling willing to sacrifice the future of their race to save a planetful of unevolved flesh-slugs. Their kind is in dire straits, what with the Allspark destroyed, and their new-found energon-harvestor obliterated. If you were Cybertronian, you'd probably see things the same way as Megs.

The difference between good and evil depends on where you stand.

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:Most of the comics depict Megatron as a hauty, self-styled patriot of Cybertron. He's quite similar psychologically to Hitler or Tojo of the former Japanese Imperial Empire; the former is engrossed in the superiority of the Cybertronian race, while the latter two feel that his "Aryan/Dai-Nippon" race should be the rightful heirs to the throne of the human race.

Hellkitty has it down pat in her observations. History's "villains" never see themselves as that. They, in fact, are heroes in their own eyes.

Megatron probably thinks Prime is the villain and the traitor, a sentimental weakling willing to sacrifice the future of their race to save a planetful of unevolved flesh-slugs. Their kind is in dire straits, what with the Allspark destroyed, and their new-found energon-harvestor obliterated. If you were Cybertronian, you'd probably see things the same way as Megs.

The difference between good and evil depends on where you stand.

true, but still you could convince megatron that since his planet is now crap that earth could be his new home, but then he would probaly be like "yeah i like that EARTH IS MINE BECH!" and start yet another war and tear ours to hell as well so that is another dead end as well

TattedPitbull wrote:

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:Most of the comics depict Megatron as a hauty, self-styled patriot of Cybertron. He's quite similar psychologically to Hitler or Tojo of the former Japanese Imperial Empire; the former is engrossed in the superiority of the Cybertronian race, while the latter two feel that his "Aryan/Dai-Nippon" race should be the rightful heirs to the throne of the human race.

Hellkitty has it down pat in her observations. History's "villains" never see themselves as that. They, in fact, are heroes in their own eyes.

Megatron probably thinks Prime is the villain and the traitor, a sentimental weakling willing to sacrifice the future of their race to save a planetful of unevolved flesh-slugs. Their kind is in dire straits, what with the Allspark destroyed, and their new-found energon-harvestor obliterated. If you were Cybertronian, you'd probably see things the same way as Megs.

The difference between good and evil depends on where you stand.

true, but still you could convince megatron that since his planet is now crap that earth could be his new home, but then he would probaly be like "yeah i like that EARTH IS MINE BECH!" and start yet another war and tear ours to hell as well so that is another dead end as well

Good point, there.

You're right; while he might not want to destroy the planet, he might also not want to share it with the humans, either. IMO, peace really isn't in Megatron's dictionary, considering he doesn't have to negotiate to get what he wants, and can simply take it with his bare hands.

Thing is, his dislike for any species not his own is a personal thing. He just can't stand "weaker" beings...yeah, that'd be us flesh-slugs

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:

TattedPitbull wrote:

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:Most of the comics depict Megatron as a hauty, self-styled patriot of Cybertron. He's quite similar psychologically to Hitler or Tojo of the former Japanese Imperial Empire; the former is engrossed in the superiority of the Cybertronian race, while the latter two feel that his "Aryan/Dai-Nippon" race should be the rightful heirs to the throne of the human race.

Hellkitty has it down pat in her observations. History's "villains" never see themselves as that. They, in fact, are heroes in their own eyes.

Megatron probably thinks Prime is the villain and the traitor, a sentimental weakling willing to sacrifice the future of their race to save a planetful of unevolved flesh-slugs. Their kind is in dire straits, what with the Allspark destroyed, and their new-found energon-harvestor obliterated. If you were Cybertronian, you'd probably see things the same way as Megs.

The difference between good and evil depends on where you stand.

true, but still you could convince megatron that since his planet is now crap that earth could be his new home, but then he would probaly be like "yeah i like that EARTH IS MINE BECH!" and start yet another war and tear ours to hell as well so that is another dead end as well

Good point, there.

You're right; while he might not want to destroy the planet, he might also not want to share it with the humans, either. IMO, peace really isn't in Megatron's dictionary, considering he doesn't have to negotiate to get what he wants, and can simply take it with his bare hands.

Thing is, his dislike for any species not his own is a personal thing. He just can't stand "weaker" beings...yeah, that'd be us flesh-slugs

could you imagine lol! Obama would be like "I can make peace with this alien species and we will share our earth!" Megatron would be like "Who R dis Obama persons and I'm going tew share wat wiff em?" then he'd swat Obama around til he got bored and went off to do something better. Sorry had to make a funny about Obama, i used to like him but he really hasnt done a damn thing for the economy, so he won a noble peice prize for reliving tensions in the middle east, so freaking what, it is a good thing but lets focus on our own country now! lol i like picturing megatron smacking him around though lolz!!!!

TattedPitbull wrote:could you imagine lol! Obama would be like "I can make peace with this alien species and we will share our earth!" Megatron would be like "Who R dis Obama persons and I'm going tew share wat wiff em?" then he'd swat Obama around til he got bored and went off to do something better. Sorry had to make a funny about Obama, i used to like him but he really hasnt done a damn thing for the economy, so he won a noble peice prize for reliving tensions in the middle east, so freaking what, it is a good thing but lets focus on our own country now! lol i like picturing megatron smacking him around though lolz!!!!

My thoughts exactly, bro. Change we need...riiiiight.

As for Megatron, yeah, you wouldn't have the time to extend your hand in friendship before he just stomps on you with a metal foot, and heads for the buffet table. "I want more vodka in this punch! Useless flesh-bound vermin...don't even know how to make a good drink!"