The Energon Pub

[Ironhidensh]

Someone who's first Exposure to Star Trek is JJ abrams isn't a Star Trek fan they are a fan of a specific movie that has at best a casual one night stand with Star Trek it's certainly in no long term relationship with it.

And the point I'm making is that there is things in movies that can be accepted as a Conceit if the conceit makes sense even ordinary movies play with our sense of time a real treat like how James Bond seems to teleport from location to location rather than get a plane.
And less time passes than often seems possible for him to have to have travelled.

The point I'm making is if you don't either have a pre-established explanation or it's something over lookable - then it can stand out a flaw or at least a distraction.

Like many people are distracted by the Dark Knight Rises and how Batman escapes the Bomb or how he got back to Gotham so quick - both have legit explanations but neither are offered and so both bug some people a lot - The Force Awakens has more than one of those sort of things.

And Replicators make at least as much sense as Energy shields do. You just take the idea that Matter and energy are interchangable and run with it. So you can't say they have no explanation at all.

But Spock seeing something from what may "Potentially" (at least) be another Star System is just pure B.S. - again if it's one of Vulcan's sister planets - then it's a stretch as it would need to be very very close to appear like that - but a whole other planet being seen from another planet in another star system is beyond silly - it's actually insulting - it's like watching someone shoot the same gun for 10 minutes and never reload it. it's suggesting you the viewer are a moron.

So the complaint isn't that there is no explanation it's that non is offered at all. as I said If the effect was seen in advance of the beam as a side effect of the corridor the beam is pursuiting in it's path of Destruction - so that it would be like looking at a natural telescope getting a preview of what is comming at you faster than the speed of light.

It might be pushing it Science wise but it's enough of an explanation for me to except it. a director's visual affectation though isn't as easy a sell for me as soon as I noticed it - I can't now un-notice it. but like Prime Spock seeing Vulcan implode It snot something you might even think about on the 1st viewing - then you think... hang on a minute - where is he standing again ?

Then there is the issues that you have to choose to over look like - why does the Enterprise take hits 'through' it's shields when they are still up.

The answer to that has "Consequences" for the physics of the whole show.

There is some curious points you can point out about Star Wars though like how well do the X-wings deflector Shields even work - when the ships blow up really pretty like when they get any hits at all - except when Artoo got skimmed - which should he have when Lukes shields were not depleted.

An explanation of why that was might have been nice. - such as the trench is to tight or he forgot to even his shields out to behind him when ordered too. The X-wings seem to take hits but the shots fired at them never seem to vanish, bend or splash on the shields - and notice this isn't the case either in the Prequels - every shot that hits either does damage or hits the hull with no effect. (like when people fire hand guns at space ships in Episode 2 & 5)
. Yet Jedi Starfighters supposedly have no shields and yet Jango singularly fails to hit Obiwan in any way at all. I think not using the shields properly actually harms the tension it could build up if used properly - I suppose it comes up a little on the cartoons - but they seem to mostly gloss over it there too.

Many people complain about the Naboo ship fleeing the planet via the Trade federation Blockade and rightly so - that whole scene makes at best only partial sense.

Perhaps the shields thing Bugged the makers of Independence Day as they sure made a point of bringing it up a lot as an essential aspect. - and Independence day isn't what most people think of as a smart movie.

I'm not saying physics can't be hand waved but you notice when it happens to much it can take people out of the Movie - another example of how that can be is Sam bouncing about on a chain attached to Starscreams face - and how he falls from impossible heights repeatedly with no injury - when dropping more than 11 feet can risk a broken ankle in the real world having someone fall 50 feet is a bit off putting to be frank.

That is I would point out one of many reasons why people don't like the later Die Hard Movies as much as the earlier ones - the invisible rubber ball hero vs the one who looks pretty darn bashed up by his adventures.

I talk about these movies slot, with a lot of people. This is literally the first time I've heard of these complaints. Its a movie, and you've missed the entire point. If you feel insulted, that's on you. Enjoy it and let it go, or don't watch it, but don't act like the movie is somehow trying to insult your intelligence.

Okay, enough soapboxing from me. I'm almost done pooping, and its time to get back to Christmas.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I've been a lifelong fan of Trek and one of the biggest principals of the series was the sheer scope of the galaxy and even at a ship's maximum warp it would take days, if not weeks to get from one system to another.

if you are indeed a "lifelong fan" as you claim, then you have either forgotten a few things or are deluding yourself.

the original series was very inconsistent with how long it took to get places
heck it only took them a few hours to reach the end of our galaxy 2 separate times, once in thew tv showw and once in a film

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I've been trying to figure out where the hell Spock was supposed to have been standing when he saw Vulcan in the sky large enough to appear a a moon sized object - it seems he arbitrarily made Vulcan have a a 3rd Co-Planet we'd not really heard about before. even though Spock made no mention of dumping Kirk on a Planet "Near" indeed Vulcan space.

its been well, established that vulcan has a sister planet, close enough in orbit that it looks like a moon
canon-wize, this sister planet was never names
jj called it delta vega

Not to mention what happens to the black hole like effect once it's eaten Vulcan does it suck in the rest of the 40 Eridani solar system in too it over time ?

those "black holes" seemed to close after a time, not that it makes much sense

[fenrir72]

Someone who's first Exposure to Star Trek is JJ abrams isn't a Star Trek fan they are a fan of a specific movie that has at best a casual one night stand with Star Trek it's certainly in no long term relationship with it.

And the point I'm making is that there is things in movies that can be accepted as a Conceit if the conceit makes sense even ordinary movies play with our sense of time a real treat like how James Bond seems to teleport from location to location rather than get a plane.
And less time passes than often seems possible for him to have to have travelled.

The point I'm making is if you don't either have a pre-established explanation or it's something over lookable - then it can stand out a flaw or at least a distraction.

Like many people are distracted by the Dark Knight Rises and how Batman escapes the Bomb or how he got back to Gotham so quick - both have legit explanations but neither are offered and so both bug some people a lot - The Force Awakens has more than one of those sort of things.

And Replicators make at least as much sense as Energy shields do. You just take the idea that Matter and energy are interchangable and run with it. So you can't say they have no explanation at all.

But Spock seeing something from what may "Potentially" (at least) be another Star System is just pure B.S. - again if it's one of Vulcan's sister planets - then it's a stretch as it would need to be very very close to appear like that - but a whole other planet being seen from another planet in another star system is beyond silly - it's actually insulting - it's like watching someone shoot the same gun for 10 minutes and never reload it. it's suggesting you the viewer are a moron.

So the complaint isn't that there is no explanation it's that non is offered at all. as I said If the effect was seen in advance of the beam as a side effect of the corridor the beam is pursuiting in it's path of Destruction - so that it would be like looking at a natural telescope getting a preview of what is comming at you faster than the speed of light.

It might be pushing it Science wise but it's enough of an explanation for me to except it. a director's visual affectation though isn't as easy a sell for me as soon as I noticed it - I can't now un-notice it. but like Prime Spock seeing Vulcan implode It snot something you might even think about on the 1st viewing - then you think... hang on a minute - where is he standing again ?

Then there is the issues that you have to choose to over look like - why does the Enterprise take hits 'through' it's shields when they are still up.

The answer to that has "Consequences" for the physics of the whole show.

There is some curious points you can point out about Star Wars though like how well do the X-wings deflector Shields even work - when the ships blow up really pretty like when they get any hits at all - except when Artoo got skimmed - which should he have when Lukes shields were not depleted.

An explanation of why that was might have been nice. - such as the trench is to tight or he forgot to even his shields out to behind him when ordered too. The X-wings seem to take hits but the shots fired at them never seem to vanish, bend or splash on the shields - and notice this isn't the case either in the Prequels - every shot that hits either does damage or hits the hull with no effect. (like when people fire hand guns at space ships in Episode 2 & 5)
. Yet Jedi Starfighters supposedly have no shields and yet Jango singularly fails to hit Obiwan in any way at all. I think not using the shields properly actually harms the tension it could build up if used properly - I suppose it comes up a little on the cartoons - but they seem to mostly gloss over it there too.

Many people complain about the Naboo ship fleeing the planet via the Trade federation Blockade and rightly so - that whole scene makes at best only partial sense.

Perhaps the shields thing Bugged the makers of Independence Day as they sure made a point of bringing it up a lot as an essential aspect. - and Independence day isn't what most people think of as a smart movie.

I'm not saying physics can't be hand waved but you notice when it happens to much it can take people out of the Movie - another example of how that can be is Sam bouncing about on a chain attached to Starscreams face - and how he falls from impossible heights repeatedly with no injury - when dropping more than 11 feet can risk a broken ankle in the real world having someone fall 50 feet is a bit off putting to be frank.

That is I would point out one of many reasons why people don't like the later Die Hard Movies as much as the earlier ones - the invisible rubber ball hero vs the one who looks pretty darn bashed up by his adventures.

I talk about these movies slot, with a lot of people. This is literally the first time I've heard of these complaints. Its a movie, and you've missed the entire point. If you feel insulted, that's on you. Enjoy it and let it go, or don't watch it, but don't act like the movie is somehow trying to insult your intelligence.

Okay, enough soapboxing from me. I'm almost done pooping, and its time to get back to Christmas.

Even still, in another chat site, there are some sulking about how someone "spoiled" a certain plot point in FB and has been announcing his grief to the entire universe? Like then stay away from boards and stuff. Iz jaz a movie folks. Enjoy it. Eat ze popcorn and soda. Make out with your date or something. Don't think much of the logic as it is "sci-fi" and after 2 hours you need to go back to reality.

Though emphasis on "Enjoy" the show and wait for the sequel 2 years from now.

[RAR]

I had a passing thought I think is worth writing down so I may as well do so here...

Luke was a guy who like Rey was shown to be a fast learner.
But at the time he was Learning what we knew about the Force was quite "Mild" it seemed almost like an internal force that could be externalised like the way Chi works in Martial arts movies.

Luke was thus able to get mild precognition, and perhaps very mild Telekinis and enhancements to reaction and perceptions, Obi-Wan demonstrated the ability to influence minds.

HOWEVER Vader showed no ability to read Leia's in fact no explicit Mind reading is shown at all until Episode 8 - Sure Yoda can read people to some degree but I doubt he'd know what number could you are thinking of (other than guessing 'Red' or 'Black' or what number ; It's 7 isn't it. Like stage trickery would use.

So lets say in Episode IV The Force can't actually do a great deal a bit of pre-cog some slight enhancements to reactions and perceptions and some mild talking to the dead.


We saw none of the abilities added later like :

Superspeed & lowering of metabolism to extend the ability to hold a breath (Episode 1),

Jumping High & Telekinesis, & 'possibly' stopping a blaster bolt & force visions in (episode 5) -

Jumping farther and Force Lightning & Empathic sensing of emotions (Episode 6).

Episode 7 confirms the shield function partially absent in Episode 2 but sort of addressed a bit in the prequels - though the EU has always maintained that Blasters bolts can only be deflected or their effects minimised in some way and not actually stopped in mid air like Kylo Ren does. Likewise for a long time Force Lighting couldn't be blocked with a lightsaber for a long time as far as I know until Mace Windu did it. (unless the Old Republic era came up with that idea first).
It has even been said the best way to defeat a Jedi is stand back and shoot stun blasts at them while you are wearing stun proof armour.

An notice how easily the Jedi are all Cut down in Order 66 - None of them sensed danger except Yoda (who has shown he has a knack for reading people) and none of them leaped out of the way or deflected the shots coming at them.

So now we get to Rey as I said before luke got just a bit of mild pre-cog and enhanced sense of the Force and the world around him to know when to fire when it "felt right".

Rey got (deep breath) enhanced understanding of Machines and alien beings in super quick time. enhanced reactions, telekinesis, enhanced agility & Endurance, visions & touch teleception.

So Rey can run faster and further, she can leap higher she can move objects with her mind - she has instinctive understanding of Machines and can speak Wookie (I didn't see any Wookies on Jakku that I noticed) and she can also seemingly understand what BB-8 is saying to a large degree unlike Luke who seems to be well "Guessing" from the context what Artoo might be saying and his tone of beeps... after all we can tell to when Artoo is nervous, agitated or concerned as well as Luke can. But Rey has actual Conversations with him - where as Finn is like Luke guessing what a droid is saying and talking to him but not understanding as such what he's saying back.

Luke does at least have experience with Droids so I can sort of buy him learning to understand Artoo a bit, but he was still looking to Threepio to Translate when they first met.

In short Rey can do a lot more than luke a lot more quickly than luke and even suggests she surprises herself a bit with her Hyperdrive tinkering & Piloting skills... if she'd been anywhere near a Hyperdrive it would have been an inactive one on a derelict and the only thing she's likely Pilots is a speeder - where as Luke had at least owned and flown an armed T-16 "Skyhopper" Airspeeder for several years as well as use of various family 'ground effect' repulsar vehicles.

Rey had not likely ever fired a gun, flown a spaceship, tinkered with a Hyperdrive, and had at best minimal interaction with Droids and may have never even met a Wookie before.

Yet she can speak droid, and wookie, fly a ship acrobatically, use force push, telekinesis, repair things she's never touched before, fire a blaster with decent accuracy, resist a Force mental pressure and even reverse it. and so on all in what a few days at best.

The woman is far far beyond the normal abilities or learning speed with the Force - no wonder with her specific talents - like a great natural ability with Machines and stupidly fast learning people are wondering if she's a sex swapped clone of Anakin Skywalker.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I had a passing thought I think is worth writing down so I may as well do so here...

very good points

i just have a few things to say...

HOWEVER Vader showed no ability to read Leia's in fact no explicit

maybe she was taught to deflect such things

Mind reading is shown at all until Episode 8 -

episode 8?
'are you from the future?

An notice how easily the Jedi are all Cut down in Order 66 - None of them sensed danger except Yoda (who has shown he has a knack for reading people) and none of them leaped out of the way or deflected the shots coming at them.

i watched episode 3 on christmas so my recollection is fresh, at least 2 of the jedi seemed to notice something was up before they were killed................but i agree they all died to easily

[quote]So now we get to Rey as I said before luke got just a bit of mild pre-cog and enhanced sense of the Force and the world around him to know when to fire when it "felt right".

Rey got (deep breath) enhanced understanding of Machines and alien beings in super quick time. enhanced reactions, telekinesis, enhanced agility & Endurance, visions & touch teleception.

So Rey can run faster and further, she can leap higher she can move objects with her mind - she has instinctive understanding of Machines and can speak Wookie (I didn't see any Wookies on Jakku that I noticed) and she can also seemingly understand what BB-8 is saying to a large degree unlike Luke who seems to be well "Guessing" from the context what Artoo might be saying and his tone of beeps... after all we can tell to when Artoo is nervous, agitated or concerned as well as Luke can. But Rey has actual Conversations with him - where as Finn is like Luke guessing what a droid is saying and talking to him but not understanding as such what he's saying back.['/quote]

i feel this can be "some what" explained by Rey being on her own since what looked like 6 or 7 years old

Luke at least had adults looking after him, it seems Rey did not, so maybe she used more force over the years with out even knowing.

[Ironhidensh]

The novel explains that all of Rey's technical knowledge comes from her years spent as a scavenger.

[RAR]

Yes I gathered that much from the film.

And no I'm not from the future I just should not type with they lights off and miss the 7 key however.

By way of apology have a video




or two

[Shadowman]

An notice how easily the Jedi are all Cut down in Order 66 - None of them sensed danger except Yoda (who has shown he has a knack for reading people) and none of them leaped out of the way or deflected the shots coming at them.

i watched episode 3 on christmas so my recollection is fresh, at least 2 of the jedi seemed to notice something was up before they were killed................but i agree they all died to easily

In one of the novels, they explained that Order 66 worked because they had spent the entire war endearing the Clones to the Jedi so much that it would override their imminent threat detection.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Yes I gathered that much from the film.

And no I'm not from the future I just should not type with they lights off and miss the 7 key however.

By way of apology have a video




or two

you are forgiven

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

An notice how easily the Jedi are all Cut down in Order 66 - None of them sensed danger except Yoda (who has shown he has a knack for reading people) and none of them leaped out of the way or deflected the shots coming at them.

i watched episode 3 on christmas so my recollection is fresh, at least 2 of the jedi seemed to notice something was up before they were killed................but i agree they all died to easily

In one of the novels, they explained that Order 66 worked because they had spent the entire war endearing the Clones to the Jedi so much that it would override their imminent threat detection.

thank you, i didnt know that,

[fenrir72]

An notice how easily the Jedi are all Cut down in Order 66 - None of them sensed danger except Yoda (who has shown he has a knack for reading people) and none of them leaped out of the way or deflected the shots coming at them.

i watched episode 3 on christmas so my recollection is fresh, at least 2 of the jedi seemed to notice something was up before they were killed................but i agree they all died to easily

In one of the novels, they explained that Order 66 worked because they had spent the entire war endearing the Clones to the Jedi so much that it would override their imminent threat detection.

thank you, i didnt know that,

Can I join in? Concerning Ep#3 with the Jedi being taken by surprise. If Lucas subconsciously or consciously been merging real life events with fiction, in analogy to what Shadowman posted, the "endearment" among the Clones is similar to "Green on Blue" incidents in West Asia.

You'll never know what hit you and what is most painful maybe your death from your comrade in arms.

[Burn]

Spoiler tags can now be removed if you so wish. Think it's been long enough.

[Generator_G1]

I always wondered why there are no Sith ghosts. Is there an official explanation?

There are. Yoda confronts the ghost of Darth Bane in Morriban/Korriban in the last episode of the Clone Wars series.

[fenrir72]

The premise............give me goose bumps! So this eventually leads to episode IV with Moff Tarkin (Peter Cushing) being digitally included

Filming has ended and has an ETA December 2016.

Maybe Rogue Two or Three would lead to Return of the Jedi? The Bothan spies who sacrificed their lives this time?

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I always wondered why there are no Sith ghosts. Is there an official explanation?

There are. Yoda confronts the ghost of Darth Bane in Morriban/Korriban in the last episode of the Clone Wars series.

yet an other series that is likely no longer canon

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

An notice how easily the Jedi are all Cut down in Order 66 - None of them sensed danger except Yoda (who has shown he has a knack for reading people) and none of them leaped out of the way or deflected the shots coming at them.

i watched episode 3 on christmas so my recollection is fresh, at least 2 of the jedi seemed to notice something was up before they were killed................but i agree they all died to easily

In one of the novels, they explained that Order 66 worked because they had spent the entire war endearing the Clones to the Jedi so much that it would override their imminent threat detection.

thank you, i didnt know that,

Can I join in? Concerning Ep#3 with the Jedi being taken by surprise. If Lucas subconsciously or consciously been merging real life events with fiction, in analogy to what Shadowman posted, the "endearment" among the Clones is similar to "Green on Blue" incidents in West Asia.

You'll never know what hit you and what is most painful maybe your death from your comrade in arms.

interesting

but i dont think any of the clones knew they would one day turn on the jedi

[Shadowman]

I always wondered why there are no Sith ghosts. Is there an official explanation?

There are. Yoda confronts the ghost of Darth Bane in Morriban/Korriban in the last episode of the Clone Wars series.

yet an other series that is likely no longer canon

Nope, the Clone Wars cartoon is actually still canon.

[Ironhidensh]

An notice how easily the Jedi are all Cut down in Order 66 - None of them sensed danger except Yoda (who has shown he has a knack for reading people) and none of them leaped out of the way or deflected the shots coming at them.

i watched episode 3 on christmas so my recollection is fresh, at least 2 of the jedi seemed to notice something was up before they were killed................but i agree they all died to easily

In one of the novels, they explained that Order 66 worked because they had spent the entire war endearing the Clones to the Jedi so much that it would override their imminent threat detection.

thank you, i didnt know that,

Can I join in? Concerning Ep#3 with the Jedi being taken by surprise. If Lucas subconsciously or consciously been merging real life events with fiction, in analogy to what Shadowman posted, the "endearment" among the Clones is similar to "Green on Blue" incidents in West Asia.

You'll never know what hit you and what is most painful maybe your death from your comrade in arms.

interesting

but i dont think any of the clones knew they would one day turn on the jedi

Also, the clones didn't act with malice. They were simply following orders. There wasn't much for the Jedi to pick up on.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I always wondered why there are no Sith ghosts. Is there an official explanation?

There are. Yoda confronts the ghost of Darth Bane in Morriban/Korriban in the last episode of the Clone Wars series.

yet an other series that is likely no longer canon

Nope, the Clone Wars cartoon is actually still canon.

may i ask what you are basing that on?

[Burn]

I always wondered why there are no Sith ghosts. Is there an official explanation?

There are. Yoda confronts the ghost of Darth Bane in Morriban/Korriban in the last episode of the Clone Wars series.

yet an other series that is likely no longer canon

Nope, the Clone Wars cartoon is actually still canon.

may i ask what you are basing that on?

The fact that it ties directly into Rebels which IS canon.

[ZeroWolf]

Didn't Disney cone out with a list of titles that were still Canon? And I explicitly remember the clone wars cartoon was part of it though sadly the original clone wars cartoon is sadly no longer canon...which is a shame as I loved that series.

[Burn]

Don't know if Disney put one out themselves, but I did find this.

http://www.slashfilm.com/new-star-wars-canon-timeline/

[RAR]

I had a a thought about the Darth Plagius speculation, though it's implied that Palpatine only had the one Master - It might be at least possible that after he had finished with Plagius - he could have met Snoke and learned something useful from him - something that scared Snoke so much it made his super cautious about teaching others and causing him to go into hiding- explaining why he was half-a**ing it so much with Kylo Ren.

For example Palpatine had to have some means to cloud the Jedi's perceptions and I was under the impression it was a Sith Artifact he obtained that allowed him to do that - but Snoke could have been the one that took Palpatine in for a short time after he'd bumped of Plagius in his sleep. heck he could have even done the same thing to Palpatine he was doing to Kyloe - telling him to murder his master (even if Palpatine might have wanted to learn more from him first).

This would then follow on to the idea that Palpatine knew Padme would die in Child birth - he might have even caused it !!!

With the idea that the death of someone close to them in a particular way can tip them over the edge or make them vulnerable to be manipulated- thus why he told Vader he killed Padme - giving him "no way back to the light" in his view he didn't deserve it as he'd killed Padme so the Emperor told him.


Perhaps Palpatine pulled a fast one on Snoke got all his secrets and then him or Vader or Maul applied a lightsaber to his face - they thought he was dead and Snoke was happy to let them think that.

Imagine if we got a flash back of Snoke getting his ass handed to him by Palpatine and Maul - that would be kick ass.

Maybe Maul was pinched of Snoke !!

I can see some fun ways to tie this all together and make the Emperor more interesting in the process too.

As for why he's so scared of Luke - well if he was sorted out later on by Vader say then perhaps he sees the darkness in Luke and is terrified of Luke not because he's a good guy but because he might be someone worse than him who could finish what Palpatine started all those years ago.

But then he could simply be scared of the light side of the force for some reason - perhaps he has a reason to be.. who knows. It may just be an evil Sorcerer trope and he's scared of someone from the Skywalker clan being destined to destroy him - ironically that could be almost anyone.

It could be Rey, Ben Solo, Luke, or a Darth Vader or Anakin clone.*

I put a distinction there on Anakin vs Vader - depending on how they present themselves as Anakin Skywalker - as Pre " I have the High Ground" Darth Vader or as dressed up in the iconic costume Vader (even if they still have all this limbs).

Anyway that all assumes Snoke is what he appears to be - a badly CGI Humanoid alien or badly disfigured Human in CGI. and he's not a Wizard of Oz style front for someone else pretending to be that being via Holograms.

[ZeroWolf]

I didn't think that snoake was that bad cg, I've definitely seen worse. And it was a hologram filter over the cgi.

Interestingly an idea I had was that this is all connected to the prophecy that was mentioned in episode 1 and that the series will end with luke and snoake dying leaving rey to deal with ren or any new threat introduced in ep 8