The Energon Pub

So I'm of the opinion that G1's Vector Sigma and BM's Oracle are one and the same. I seem to recall (but I could be mistaken) that Beast Machines actually stated that the Oracle was Vector Sigma.

The Matrix, on the other hand, was once separate. Watch G1 "Rebirth" again. When Optimus uses the empty shell of the Matrix to merge with Vector Sigma, once he is done and returns, the Matrix is no longer in his hand. Perhaps it stayed within Vector Sigma, which is what I use to explain Vector Sigma evolving over the next three hundred years into the Oracle, which is is much bigger and mystic.

The Allspark from the movie seems to serve the same function as Vector Sigma: mystic force that gives life to machines.

Anyways, in my world, Vector Sigma + Matrix = Oracle
and the Allspark is Bay's way of making it sound more mystic than Greek.

What do ya'll think of the various TF religious artifacts?
(Religious artifacts may not be an accurate name, but they all seem to fit to me, would you guys consider them to be religious and/or spiritual in nature?)

Savage wrote:What do ya'll think of the various TF religious artifacts?

Honestly... I prefer the original G1 cartoon premise, where the Quintessons built the Transformers as machines with programmed personalities to sell to consumers, and Vector Sigma was a highly advanced computer. The Matrix you could feasibly explain away as a database of the personality programming of all the previous bearers, with a real-time copy downloaded into it as long as the current wearer possesses it and is functional.

So the artifacts weren't religious... just simply Clarke's-Third-Law-inspired scientific devices. It is all a premise that IMO is clean, interesting, and very neatly explains away a lot of the quirks of Cybertron and its inhabitants: female Autobots and the TFs other odd humanoid qualities, the practicality of a long-lived race that "reproduces" by having to purposefully construct new members, Dinobot intelligence vs. Aerialbot/Stunticon and Technobot intelligence, the often specialized personalities of many TFs, etc.

It's not until you try to retcon in (all)sparks, multiverse-spanning creator gods, and other weird religious gobbledygook that you start ending up with plot holes and having to come up with convoluted explanations and weird ideas for a sudden multitude of problems. Unfortunately (to my POV, anyway), this latter seems to be the sort of continuity/logistical mess that the comic and post-G1 series writers like playing around in. *shrug*

Totally. Even as a kid, what appealed to me most about Transformers was that it didn't have religious or mystical elements like He-Man, Dungeons And Dragons, etc. I've never understood the desire to throw all this cobblers about sparks and gods into G1. It just causes a lot of confusion and problems.

Savage wrote:So I'm of the opinion that G1's Vector Sigma and BM's Oracle are one and the same. I seem to recall (but I could be mistaken) that Beast Machines actually stated that the Oracle was Vector Sigma.

Watch this episode. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmpxsLhtLPM Never says Vector Sigma and the Oracle are the same.

The Allspark from the movie seems to serve the same function as Vector Sigma: mystic force that gives life to machines.

Movie is not part of the same continuam as G1/BW/BM.

The Oracle and Vector Sigma are different. Note that Vector Sigma and the Oracle are referred to as different things. Tanknox gains possession of the Key to Vector Sigma. If you didn't need a key, why would there be a Key? (Given though, Silverbolt destroyed the Key in G1, but still). The Oracle is only able to be contacted by the two leaders, it seems.

I'm with Jeysie, makes for more interesting stories and offers a plausible scientific theory instead of all that untangible spiritual stuff.

Damolisher wrote:The Oracle and Vector Sigma are different. Note that Vector Sigma and the Oracle are referred to as different things. Tanknox gains possession of the Key to Vector Sigma. If you didn't need a key, why would there be a Key? (Given though, Silverbolt destroyed the Key in G1, but still). The Oracle is only able to be contacted by the two leaders, it seems.

Could it be that the key is just comprised of code, as it would seem from the BM episode, and therefore cannot be destroyed entirely?

Wasn't it just 'A' key, not 'THE' key? As Alpha Trion stated. There must have been more... What would the Quintesson have done if they lost their key? "Oh, damn. Might as well abandon the factory, we lost the only key ever made." Surely there would be spares.

Savage wrote:The Allspark from the movie seems to serve the same function as Vector Sigma: mystic force that gives life to machines.

The idea for the Allspark did not come from the movie.

Saber Prime wrote:

Savage wrote:So I'm of the opinion that G1's Vector Sigma and BM's Oracle are one and the same. I seem to recall (but I could be mistaken) that Beast Machines actually stated that the Oracle was Vector Sigma.

Watch this episode. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmpxsLhtLPM Never says Vector Sigma and the Oracle are the same.
.

No they dont but they do heavly imply that their conected.Even that clip you posted would lead you to the same idea.....If you look at time frame 2:50 trew 3:40 the drone gains acsess to vecto sigma trew the Oracle.

That also implyed that the Oracle is connected to the plasma energy chamber.....the forge that the original Transformers bodys were formed.

Best guess is that they were implying that Vector Sigma, The Matrix and the plasma energy chamber were all connected at some level and over the years combined to form the Oracle and the well of All Sparks.

Always saw it as:

Vector Sigma Super Computer - Primus's Brain. Contains enough data to write a unique, sentient program for a Transformer. Given that it's a computer, the program can be customized by the user.

Oracle - A GUI for the Vector Sigma Super Computer; and avenue for Primus's children to contact his consciousness.

Key to Vector Sigma - A contrived plot device, it's hard to justify its existence. Cybertron supposedly started as an asteroid, which presumably wasn't all metal. Alternatively, there may be a distinction between metal, and living metal. Either way, Primus may have devised a method to convert the nonmetallic/inanimate portions of his asteroid body into living metal to create his children. This knowledge would then be a 'key' component in the VS-SC's ability to create a new Transformer.

Creation Matrix/Matrix of Leadership - A portion or facet of Primus's soul contained in a tangible relic. It can grant life to a Transformer, since Primus himself is a being devoted to creation.

Matrix of Conquest/Matrix of Destruction - A Quintesson lie.

Dead Matrix (TF:Universe Only) - A perverted Creation Matrix from an alternate universe. Essentially the Anti-Matrix, it could harm Primus the way the Creation Matrix could harm Unicron. Hypothetically, it could purge life the same way the Creation Matrix could create it.

The Matrix - The 'over soul' from which Transformers are born, and to which they return after death. As such, it is also the collective reprository of Cybertronian experience. In the past, it has also been called the "Allspark".

The Allspark (Movie Only) - A mysterious artifact that transforms inanimate objects with electronic components into Cybertronian lifeforms. Otherwise, who knows? Could it have been created by Primus, as a repository of his life force? Could it be part of a diabolical Quintessonian plot to raise an army of slaves without any actual effort on their part? Perhaps it was created by the Forerunner to repopulate the universe with life-forms the Flood couldn't infect, or by the Ancients before they acended to create a force to combat the Ori. Maybe it was created by the Skrull, or by A.I.M. scientists...

How can Vector Sigma be Primuses Brain when Primus isn't in the G1 cartoon? How can Primus have anything to do with ANYTHING in the G1 cartoon when he isn't in the G1 cartoon?

Damolisher wrote:How can Vector Sigma be Primuses Brain when Primus isn't in the G1 cartoon? How can Primus have anything to do with ANYTHING in the G1 cartoon when he isn't in the G1 cartoon?

Vector Sigma has been mentioned in continuities other than the G1 Cartoon, continuities in which Primus does exist.

Ah, right, gotcha. I was not aware of that.

Damolisher wrote:How can Vector Sigma be Primuses Brain when Primus isn't in the G1 cartoon? How can Primus have anything to do with ANYTHING in the G1 cartoon when he isn't in the G1 cartoon?

No Damolisher the Ultimate Guide has retconed him into the G1 cartoon continuity.It is an offical retcon and it is canon.Because I said so

How did I do??????????

Caelus wrote:
Vector Sigma has been mentioned in continuities other than the G1 Cartoon, continuities in which Primus does exist.

He's got a point there....vector Sigma and Primus were both mention in the Beastmachine show.

What about the Matrices from the non G1/BW continuities?

A/E/C, RID, and the Japanese Beast Wars all had their own interpretations didn't they?

Edit: IIRC, in the Armada Comic the Minicons actually had their own Matrix - the sum of all Minicon life saved from a reality consumed by Unicron.

And in Cybertron there was the Omega Lock and the Cyber Keys...

All I know is trying to make sense of this via canon is pointless.

Best I can say, these are plot devices when all's said and done. So find what works for you and run with it

However, I do have to say, the AllSpark has been around long before Bay got involved.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

Savage wrote:So I'm of the opinion that G1's Vector Sigma and BM's Oracle are one and the same. I seem to recall (but I could be mistaken) that Beast Machines actually stated that the Oracle was Vector Sigma.

Watch this episode. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmpxsLhtLPM Never says Vector Sigma and the Oracle are the same.
.

No they dont but they do heavly imply that their conected.Even that clip you posted would lead you to the same idea.....If you look at time frame 2:50 trew 3:40 the drone gains acsess to vecto sigma trew the Oracle.

That also implyed that the Oracle is connected to the plasma energy chamber.....the forge that the original Transformers bodys were formed.

Best guess is that they were implying that Vector Sigma, The Matrix and the plasma energy chamber were all connected at some level and over the years combined to form the Oracle and the well of All Sparks.

Being conected and being the same are two complatly different subjects. I don't deny the fact there is a conection between the Oracle and Vector Sigma. I was only pointing out that Vector Sigma did not become, mutate, upgrade, morph, Transform, or whatever into the Orical as the OP sugested.

Damolisher wrote:How can Vector Sigma be Primuses Brain when Primus isn't in the G1 cartoon? How can Primus have anything to do with ANYTHING in the G1 cartoon when he isn't in the G1 cartoon?

What he said.

Primus was never really introduced in the cartoons till Transformers Cybertron. He originated in the comics before he ever came to be in the cartoons.

Major difference between G1 cartoons and comics is Primus doesn't exsist. The Quentessons built all the Transformers. Vector Sigma is their computer and has no conection to Primus.

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

Savage wrote:So I'm of the opinion that G1's Vector Sigma and BM's Oracle are one and the same. I seem to recall (but I could be mistaken) that Beast Machines actually stated that the Oracle was Vector Sigma.

Watch this episode. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmpxsLhtLPM Never says Vector Sigma and the Oracle are the same.
.

No they dont but they do heavly imply that their conected.Even that clip you posted would lead you to the same idea.....If you look at time frame 2:50 trew 3:40 the drone gains acsess to vecto sigma trew the Oracle.

That also implyed that the Oracle is connected to the plasma energy chamber.....the forge that the original Transformers bodys were formed.

Best guess is that they were implying that Vector Sigma, The Matrix and the plasma energy chamber were all connected at some level and over the years combined to form the Oracle and the well of All Sparks.

Being conected and being the same are two complatly different subjects. I don't deny the fact there is a conection between the Oracle and Vector Sigma. I was only pointing out that Vector Sigma did not become, mutate, upgrade, morph, Transform, or whatever into the Orical as the OP sugested.

Never said you did.........but on the otherhand your assuming just as much as he did because they never said that Vector Sigma did not in fact become, mutate, upgrade, morph, Transform, or whatever into the Oricale.
They never really said ether way.

Saber Prime wrote:

Damolisher wrote:How can Vector Sigma be Primuses Brain when Primus isn't in the G1 cartoon? How can Primus have anything to do with ANYTHING in the G1 cartoon when he isn't in the G1 cartoon?

What he said.

Primus was never really introduced in the cartoons till Transformers Cybertron. He originated in the comics before he ever came to be in the cartoons.

Major difference between G1 cartoons and comics is Primus doesn't exsist. The Quentessons built all the Transformers. Vector Sigma is their computer and has no conection to Primus.

Yeah but the Beast Machines show referres to them both.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

Savage wrote:So I'm of the opinion that G1's Vector Sigma and BM's Oracle are one and the same. I seem to recall (but I could be mistaken) that Beast Machines actually stated that the Oracle was Vector Sigma.

Watch this episode. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmpxsLhtLPM Never says Vector Sigma and the Oracle are the same.
.

No they dont but they do heavly imply that their conected.Even that clip you posted would lead you to the same idea.....If you look at time frame 2:50 trew 3:40 the drone gains acsess to vecto sigma trew the Oracle.

That also implyed that the Oracle is connected to the plasma energy chamber.....the forge that the original Transformers bodys were formed.

Best guess is that they were implying that Vector Sigma, The Matrix and the plasma energy chamber were all connected at some level and over the years combined to form the Oracle and the well of All Sparks.

Being conected and being the same are two complatly different subjects. I don't deny the fact there is a conection between the Oracle and Vector Sigma. I was only pointing out that Vector Sigma did not become, mutate, upgrade, morph, Transform, or whatever into the Orical as the OP sugested.

Never said you did.........but on the otherhand your assuming just as much as he did because they never said that Vector Sigma did not in fact become, mutate, upgrade, morph, Transform, or whatever into the Oricale.
They never really said ether way.

They do say. The line is "Vector Sigma is INSIDE the Oricle" not "Vector sigma IS the Oricle" doesn't get more clear than that.

BTW That wasn't a clip the full episode is on there you just gotta follow the links. It's in 3 parts, watch the full episode. It's verry clear they are two seperate things, I just think the OP hasn't seen it in a LONG while.

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

Savage wrote:So I'm of the opinion that G1's Vector Sigma and BM's Oracle are one and the same. I seem to recall (but I could be mistaken) that Beast Machines actually stated that the Oracle was Vector Sigma.

Watch this episode. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmpxsLhtLPM Never says Vector Sigma and the Oracle are the same.
.

No they dont but they do heavly imply that their conected.Even that clip you posted would lead you to the same idea.....If you look at time frame 2:50 trew 3:40 the drone gains acsess to vecto sigma trew the Oracle.

That also implyed that the Oracle is connected to the plasma energy chamber.....the forge that the original Transformers bodys were formed.

Best guess is that they were implying that Vector Sigma, The Matrix and the plasma energy chamber were all connected at some level and over the years combined to form the Oracle and the well of All Sparks.

Being conected and being the same are two complatly different subjects. I don't deny the fact there is a conection between the Oracle and Vector Sigma. I was only pointing out that Vector Sigma did not become, mutate, upgrade, morph, Transform, or whatever into the Orical as the OP sugested.

Never said you did.........but on the otherhand your assuming just as much as he did because they never said that Vector Sigma did not in fact become, mutate, upgrade, morph, Transform, or whatever into the Oricale.
They never really said ether way.

They do say. The line is "Vector Sigma is INSIDE the Oricle" not "Vector sigma IS the Oricle" doesn't get more clear than that.

BTW That wasn't a clip the full episode is on there you just gotta follow the links. It's in 3 parts, watch the full episode. It's verry clear they are two seperate things, I just think the OP hasn't seen it in a LONG while.

I havent ether I'll check now and get back to you.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

Damolisher wrote:How can Vector Sigma be Primuses Brain when Primus isn't in the G1 cartoon? How can Primus have anything to do with ANYTHING in the G1 cartoon when he isn't in the G1 cartoon?

What he said.

Primus was never really introduced in the cartoons till Transformers Cybertron. He originated in the comics before he ever came to be in the cartoons.

Major difference between G1 cartoons and comics is Primus doesn't exsist. The Quentessons built all the Transformers. Vector Sigma is their computer and has no conection to Primus.

Yeah but the Beast Machines show referres to them both.

There's a few lines where they use the name Primus in conversation like we would use God but it's never mentioned as Primus is the creator of the Transformers. It's just a word that means nothing.

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

Damolisher wrote:How can Vector Sigma be Primuses Brain when Primus isn't in the G1 cartoon? How can Primus have anything to do with ANYTHING in the G1 cartoon when he isn't in the G1 cartoon?

What he said.

Primus was never really introduced in the cartoons till Transformers Cybertron. He originated in the comics before he ever came to be in the cartoons.

Major difference between G1 cartoons and comics is Primus doesn't exsist. The Quentessons built all the Transformers. Vector Sigma is their computer and has no conection to Primus.

Yeah but the Beast Machines show referres to them both.

There's a few lines where they use the name Primus in conversation like we would use God but it's never mentioned as Primus is the creator of the Transformers. It's just a word that means nothing.

What would you say was Primus in Beast Wars and Beast Machines?????