The Energon Pub

Saber Prime wrote:Oh about the "the tree has to originate from you for the different yous to be the same" that's rather self sentered way of thinking isn't it? I mean if that were true that would mean the universe littereally DOES revolve around you.

I agree that it would seem to be a self-universe way of thinking but it would have to be.Even if your the same person your not the same character.It is your personalty that defines your character.Your personalty is formed trew lifes events.If your alternate has a different personalty then he is a different character even thou hes the same person.

Saber Prime wrote:No the chances of you exsisting in another universe allthough unlikely is not impossible. The simple fact that Sisko does exist in both universes on Star Trek is proof of that. I mean if it was impossible for him to be there than why is he?

The better question is why does anybody have a counterpart.But in Siskos case theres a bigger issue.....like I told you in the Mirror universe none of the wormhole aliens [porfits] inhabited his mother to make sure he was born and he was never part profit.The Profits of that universe are also of a different personalties then the ones in the mainstream universe and never involved them selfs with Bajor.Mirror Universe was still born because his parents were mated as breading stock but his mother wasnt being controled by a profit at the time so Sisko is a very different character.

Saber Prime wrote:Here's a nice example for you.

Neptune is from Primal Earth, that's the dimention we're currently in. His origin is Science being that he was chemically mutated.

Lord Imperial is from Mythical Earth, a dimention where Merlin lived forever and eventully became Lord Merlin, the ruler of the entire planet Earth. He's not a corrupt leader though, for someone who can bend the fabric of reality just being Lord and master of an entire planet isn't a whole lot of power. The only real law is "No Black Magic is to be used without supervision from Merlin himself." Because everyone in this world knows Magic he of course is Magic origin.

Both Lord Imperial and Neptune are the same character/person. The difference between them is actully not that great.

Lord Imperial started training with Merlin around the same time Neptune was chemically altered. Both went by the name Ducklingboy before that. (Simular fashion to how Robin is now called Night Wing)

Neptune has an evil clone named Mr. Hammer Head. Lord Imperial has an evil Doupleganger named Lord Vestereo.

The 2 big differences are their powers of course. The other difference is that Lord Vestereo is not a seperate character from Lord Imperial. His personality was actully split in half and the evil/bad part of him manifested itself into a new body.

This is probly the most confusing character I've ever created because it really goes agenst everything I've been saying so far. Basically he's an Astroprojection only a solid one. Things get a little more complicated when Magic is involved than with science sence Magic defies all the laws of science.

I don't actully belive in Magic but for fictional characters it's fine.

I really cant speek on your characters because I know nothing about them.

But since you brought up Robin I do have an exsample for you.The Robin of earth 2 never grew out og Bruce's shodow...never was a member of the Tean Titans ,Never became Nightwing....he remainded Robin till he was killed in the first Crissis.While both were Dick Grayson and the same person they were different characters even thou they were very simular....because life effected them differently...The one that became Nightwing had problems living with Bruce in his teens [like most teenageres] fell in love with barbra Gordan [Bat Girl] then formed the Teen Titans later striking out on his own as Night Wing.
The one that remained Robin never had any issues with Bruce....had a relatinship with him like the old tv show Father Knows best of Leave it to Beever......never had a Barbra Gorden in his life.....nor did he ever have the Teen Titans in his life.....as a matter of fact he, Speedy and Sandy were the only kid sidekicks in that universe and they never banded together as a team.This Robin never became a leader at a young age nor did he in his older years.He did join the JSA the same team that Batman helped to establish be he was still a 2nd tear hero.
Life molded these 2 Robins into very different characters even thou their the same person.

to sumarized the klingon warrior poet...

person is to character as
nature is to nurture

... i luv analogies

I've never seen Ultra Magnus without the armour on any cartoon.

I wonder what was the intention of the original toy to have 2 robot modes before it became part of Transformers.

he was going to an upgrade for convoy in japan

ThunderZap wrote:he was going to an upgrade for convoy in japan

Do you mean the Diaclone line?

Auto Bot wrote:

ThunderZap wrote:he was going to an upgrade for convoy in japan

Do you mean the Diaclone line?

I'm guess he does....Takara did have the power convoy mold designed as a upgrade to their battle convoy figure [both diaclone] They also presented the two designs to Hasbo/Marvel in the same fasion but Hasbro didnt like the idea that much and opptided for the seprate character idea.

AxiomScion wrote:to sumarized the klingon warrior poet...

person is to character as
nature is to nurture

... i luv analogies

I've notic....and your quite good at it I might add

I keep useing the word "person" because I actully belive there multiple universes out there not just in fiction.

Character is not a noun, it's an adjitive to describe a fictional person. Ultra Magnus is a character, You are a person.

Life exsperiences shape your personality to a sertain exstent other parts are shaped just by how your brain works. no matter how your personality changes and appears to others your brain still works the same way.

To be a different character one just has to come from a different wrighter. G1 Ultra Magnus and RID Ultra Magnus are not the same characters. They're two different wrighters makeing up two different characters who just happen to have the same names.

Let's go over two different versions of Mr. Freeze, one from Batman and the other from TheBatman.

Batman's Mr. Freeze is a scientist. He needed money to fund his research to cure a deadly desies his wife has. This is the only reason he became a jewel thief.

TheBatman's Mr. Freeze has no wife, is not a scientist, and has allways been a jewel thief. They took out all the depth to the character and made him someone completly different.

If he were the same character as Batman's Mr. Freeze without a wife to suport he wouldn't even exsist as Mr. Freeze or a jewel thief.

Saber Prime wrote:I keep useing the word "person" because I actully belive there multiple universes out there not just in fiction.

Character is not a noun, it's an adjitive to describe a fictional person. Ultra Magnus is a character, You are a person.

I know what the words mean but the word character also is used when trying to describe one's personalty hence how I've been useing the word.

Saber Prime wrote:Life exsperiences shape your personality to a sertain exstent other parts are shaped just by how your brain works. no matter how your personality changes and appears to others your brain still works the same way.

Life exsperiences shape your personality to a complete exstent.Thats why twins that share simular experances can still have different personality's.And how your brains works is a combenation of early experances in your fetus stage and those formed as a young child........and trew the rest of life.There are too many things that effect how a brain works to assume that both versions of you would have simular brains.Blood pressure changes in your mother caused by any he life's events could have effected how your mind developed while you were still inside her.Even your mom smoking or useing drugs while carring you could have changed the way your mind works today and if in one of the universes one of your mom's did and the other didnt do those things your mind would have developed differently.

Saber Prime wrote:To be a different character one just has to come from a different wrighter. G1 Ultra Magnus and RID Ultra Magnus are not the same characters. They're two different wrighters makeing up two different characters who just happen to have the same names.

Let's go over two different versions of Mr. Freeze, one from Batman and the other from TheBatman.

Batman's Mr. Freeze is a scientist. He needed money to fund his research to cure a deadly desies his wife has. This is the only reason he became a jewel thief.

TheBatman's Mr. Freeze has no wife, is not a scientist, and has allways been a jewel thief. They took out all the depth to the character and made him someone completly different.

If he were the same character as Batman's Mr. Freeze without a wife to suport he wouldn't even exsist as Mr. Freeze or a jewel thief.

See thats my point........if you take my wife away.......my children away.......remove my grandmother from my life.....as may be the fact for a alternate universe version of me then the me of that universe would be completly different.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:To be a different character one just has to come from a different wrighter. G1 Ultra Magnus and RID Ultra Magnus are not the same characters. They're two different wrighters makeing up two different characters who just happen to have the same names.

Let's go over two different versions of Mr. Freeze, one from Batman and the other from TheBatman.

Batman's Mr. Freeze is a scientist. He needed money to fund his research to cure a deadly desies his wife has. This is the only reason he became a jewel thief.

TheBatman's Mr. Freeze has no wife, is not a scientist, and has allways been a jewel thief. They took out all the depth to the character and made him someone completly different.

If he were the same character as Batman's Mr. Freeze without a wife to suport he wouldn't even exsist as Mr. Freeze or a jewel thief.

See thats my point........if you take my wife away.......my children away.......remove my grandmother from my life.....as may be the fact for a alternate universe version of me then the me of that universe would be completly different.

You completly lost me there. How'd you get that out of what I said?

Mr. Freeze with a wife makes sence. Mr. Freeze without should not even exsist as a villain. Because he does exsist either way they are different characters.

If the same Mr. Freeze who was fighting to save his wife in another universe never had a wife to begine with he would never have become Mr. Freeze but they would be the same character.

In a way the difference actully makes them the same. You can't take away a character's reason for becomeing a villain and still make him that same character.

Saber Prime wrote:Mr. Freeze with a wife makes sence. Mr. Freeze without should not even exsist as a villain. Because he does exsist either way they are different characters.

Now it looks like your contradicting yourself.You have said before that different life events between universe's does not mean that both would be different characters.Being married, having a wife that get's sick, are life events that differ in these 2 universe's for Mr.Freeze.....both have the same name ,parents,birthdates so why useing the theroy you have been stateing they should be the same character.....but now your saying that because he does exsist in a universe with out a wife he's not the same character????

Saber Prime wrote:If the same Mr. Freeze who was fighting to save his wife in another universe never had a wife to begine with he would never have become Mr. Freeze but they would be the same character.

Again this statement contradic's your first paragrah.They would not be the same character.They would be the same person [ficshnal I know] but their characters are different.Forgetting about Frezze because there havent really been that verring versions of him I'll use one character that you should know very well.
Lex Luther.On earth #0 Lex is the bad guy you know, Always trying to kill superman and so on.
Lex [Alexander] Luther of earth 3 is one of that planets only Superheroes.....he battles the Crime Syndicate that consit of evil versions of the JLA.He has put his life on the line over and over again to stop them.
The two characters are different even thou their the same person.

Saber Prime wrote:In a way the difference actully makes them the same.You can't take away a character's reason for becomeing a villain and still make him that same character.

These two statements contradic each other.If " the difference actully makes them the same" then why cant you " take away a character's reason for becomeing a villain and still make him that same character"?????

I'll tell you why........because the reason's that he became Mr. Freeze the villain in the main universe were the results of life's events....being a husband....having a wife that gets sick developed his character......in a universe where he has no wife his character would be different.Much like if I had no wife in an other universe,my character would be different.I would be a very different man if my life had been different.So as that goes if a different universe version of me had a different life then he would be a different character then I.

There is a Star Trek the next generation episode that illerstraights this issue much better then I ever could.....its called Tapestry.You should look it up.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Mr. Freeze with a wife makes sence. Mr. Freeze without should not even exsist as a villain. Because he does exsist either way they are different characters.

Now it looks like your contradicting yourself.You have said before that different life events between universe's does not mean that both would be different characters.Being married, having a wife that get's sick, are life events that differ in these 2 universe's for Mr.Freeze.....both have the same name ,parents,birthdates so why useing the theroy you have been stateing they should be the same character.....but now your saying that because he does exsist in a universe with out a wife he's not the same character????

By either yours or my standards both of these life event changes could not lead to the same ending.

I was trying to exsplain the difference between a person and a character. These two Mr. Freezes are not part of the same multiverse. They are different characters because they come from different wrighters. They do not have the same birthdate either as the current Mr. Freeze from TheBatman is technically YOUNGER than the Mr. Freeze from the older Batman cartoons. All the cartoons are set in present time yet the characters are aprox. the same age now as they were in the 80's and 90's.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:If the same Mr. Freeze who was fighting to save his wife in another universe never had a wife to begine with he would never have become Mr. Freeze but they would be the same character.

Again this statement contradic's your first paragrah.They would not be the same character.They would be the same person [ficshnal I know] but their characters are different.Forgetting about Frezze because there havent really been that verring versions of him I'll use one character that you should know very well.
Lex Luther.On earth #0 Lex is the bad guy you know, Always trying to kill superman and so on.
Lex [Alexander] Luther of earth 3 is one of that planets only Superheroes.....he battles the Crime Syndicate that consit of evil versions of the JLA.He has put his life on the line over and over again to stop them.
The two characters are different even thou their the same person.

I don't get cartoon network and don't read comics have no idea how to reply to the whole Lex Luthor thing.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:In a way the difference actully makes them the same.You can't take away a character's reason for becomeing a villain and still make him that same character.

These two statements contradic each other.If " the difference actully makes them the same" then why cant you " take away a character's reason for becomeing a villain and still make him that same character"?????

I'll tell you why........because the reason's that he became Mr. Freeze the villain in the main universe were the results of life's events....being a husband....having a wife that gets sick developed his character......in a universe where he has no wife his character would be different.Much like if I had no wife in an other universe,my character would be different.I would be a very different man if my life had been different.So as that goes if a different universe version of me had a different life then he would be a different character then I.

Huh? Seriously your sententeces are kinda run togeather and even though I can still tell them apart I still have no idea what you just said.

It's really verry simple.

There's a Justice League episode (haven't seen it just read about it) with alternate universe versions of them and in that alternate universe all the criminals are lobotomized. (spelling) Both that universe and the "mainstream" universe are part of the same multiverse. Both versions of the Justice League characters were developed by the same wrighters. Therefor both the Superman from the Mainstream universe and the lobotimized criminals universe are the same characters.

Batman and TheBatman are not from the same multiverse. Batman that I'm most familiar with is from the late 90's. TheBatman is the current running series on Kid's WB from entirly different wrighters. Both are set in the current time periods for when the shows aired. In other words different characters.

You could wright up your own story with Donald Ray Hansen/Mallard and his son Donald James Hansen/Ducklingboy/Neptune based on what little information I've given you and makeing the rest up on your own but they would not in any way be the same characters my father and I created.

I can make different universe versions of the characters verry easily because I know their entire life storys. I know how changing one little event would lead to a verry different future.

Any versions of the characters you made could not exsist in the same Multiverse as my original characters.

BTW this is just an example. Unlike other wrighters I don't let the rights to my characters go unless I oversee any and all changes being made simply because I don't want anyone screwing up my characters like what's done with the Spider-man movies or TheBatman.

Saber Prime wrote:I keep useing the word "person" because I actully belive there multiple universes out there not just in fiction.

Character is not a noun, it's an adjitive to describe a fictional person. Ultra Magnus is a character, You are a person.

hmm... i thought a noun was a person place or thing (also including an idea or thought) as for Character... Dictionary.com, while featuring an adjective use, leans toward it being a noun as well. Even the context that you've place Utramagnus in "Ultra Magnus is a character" as the subject ie noun then stating he is a characracter also dictates that a character is also a noun. You, me, and even Ultramagnus really should not be considered adjectives in this case.

Further, personality and character are synonyms. In this respect i'll rephrase your post with my analogy in mind. Just a little experiment if you will. I've taken the liberty of continuing using the term person; not that i think them as real, but that they are considered a person in fiction (...or fictional character... different use) I also thought it worked nicely when you used it.

Axiom Re- wrote:Nurture, experiences in life, shapes your personality to a certain exstent, other parts are predetermined just by, nature, how your brain works. No matter how your character changes and appears to others, you are still genetically the same person.

To be a different character one just has to show different character traits. G1 Ultra Magnus and RID Ultra Magnus are not the same person or character. They're two different writer make ups of two different characters who just happen to have the same names.

Let's go over two different versions of Mr. Freeze, one from Batman and the other from TheBatman.

Batman's Mr. Freeze is a scientist. Dr. Victor Fries needed money to fund his research to cure a deadly desies his wife has. This is the only reason he became a jewel thief.

TheBatman's Mr. Freeze has no wife, is not a scientist, and has allways been a jewel thief. They took out all the depth to the character and made him someone completly different. I don't think they even had the same civilian name.

If he were the same character as Batman's Dr. Victor Fries he'ld likely be a bitter scientist as his only means to save his wife would have been stolen by some jewel thief with permanent frost bite. Instead he is the jewel theif and thus a different person.

I think that doesn't actually contradict Saberprime, but Stovokor's Robin example made sense to.

Okay, If each of you watch family guy there was an episode were death let Peter go back in time and relive his teenage years (for a day or two) The divergent timeline/reality that resulted is like Stovo's Robin comparison. Peter, Lois, and Quagmire were all the same persons/characters but the world around them was drasticly different. The kids were another story...wait. Saber doesn't watch cartoon network. I'll think of something else then.

hmm... G2 Prime and Powermaster Prime.. both have the same origins, are they the same? How about VictoryLeo?

Guiltor is Starscream in a MegaPrime body. Literally same character, but technically different person

I guess i'm going to have to read those derailing pages huh Stovokor

random thought, whish incarnation of Ultra Magnus is your favourite? be it toy, toon or comic!
personally i liked the G1 toon version the best. the RiD vesion was portrayed well though

AxiomScion wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:I keep useing the word "person" because I actully belive there multiple universes out there not just in fiction.

Character is not a noun, it's an adjitive to describe a fictional person. Ultra Magnus is a character, You are a person.

hmm... i thought a noun was a person place or thing (also including an idea or thought) as for Character... Dictionary.com, while featuring an adjective use, leans toward it being a noun as well. Even the context that you've place Utramagnus in "Ultra Magnus is a character" as the subject ie noun then stating he is a characracter also dictates that a character is also a noun. You, me, and even Ultramagnus really should not be considered adjectives in this case.

Ultra Magnus (two words not one, makes it hard to take any grammer corrections seriously if you can't even spell the guy's name right.) is the Noun. Sence the word "Character" is describing what he is that makes it an adjective.

AxiomScion wrote:Okay, If each of you watch family guy there was an episode were death let Peter go back in time and relive his teenage years (for a day or two) The divergent timeline/reality that resulted is like Stovo's Robin comparison. Peter, Lois, and Quagmire were all the same persons/characters but the world around them was drasticly different. The kids were another story...wait. Saber doesn't watch cartoon network. I'll think of something else then.

You do realize all the NEW episodes of Family Guy appear on Fox every Sunday night. Any episodes you watched on Cartoon Network are allready reruns by the time they get to that station.

Sunday night Fox just so happens to be the ONLY TV I ever watch. (partly because I don't get Cartoon network and Comedy Central and mostly because I don't like anything on any other channel or at any other time.)

Anyway, Family Guy is a comedy cartoon. Something not to be taken seriously. I mean come on in the alternate future Lois ended up with the same 3 kids but they all had Quagmire's chin.[/quote]

Saber Prime wrote:By either yours or my standards both of these life event changes could not lead to the same ending.
I was trying to exsplain the difference between a person and a character. These two Mr. Freezes are not part of the same multiverse. They are different characters because they come from different wrighters.

Its the same multiverse.The so called "multiverse" in question is the one of DC comics.All of the diffrent universes that contain versions of DC comics characters are part of the same multiverse.
Just like all the different Transformerse univerese's ,Maevel U.S. G1,Marvel U.K. G1,G1 U.S. toon,G1 toy bio ,Dreamwave G1,Beast Wars,Armada toon,Armada comic,Energon toon,Energon comic,Cybbertron toon,The New animated TF Toon The Live action film and all the others that I missed are all part of one big multiverse.

DC comics has a multiverse and DC animated as a multiverse witch in a sence can be considered part of DC's comic multiverse.

Thats how a multiverse works in the world of publication.........many different universe's within one multiverse oned by what ever publisher we're talking about at the time.

Saber Prime wrote:They do not have the same birthdate either as the current Mr. Freeze from TheBatman is technically YOUNGER than the Mr. Freeze from the older Batman cartoons. All the cartoons are set in present time yet the characters are aprox. the same age now as they were in the 80's and 90's.

Again their exsact birthdates is irrevelant.Every time they have to reboot the characters their year of birth has to change other wise Batman and Superman would both be 105 years old by now or Spiderman would be closing on 60 years old now.Both Batman's are comprobile in age to each other in the time framse an the points in their careers.As I said to you before in the world of fiction a birth date has nothing to do with anything.

When Spiderman of the main stream universe made his first apperance it was 1962 and he was about 17 years old........Spiderman now ,of the same universe,is about 22 or 25 years old.Obviously his year of birth changed or he would be close to 70 years old.Its the same with the Freeze from the 90's TV show and the one from the new show.

Their not different characters because of a different birth date,,,,its because of the way the events of their live's played out.And the same would be the case for the 2 different Kirks.As well as any possible real life different universe versions of you and me.

Saber Prime wrote: Huh? Seriously your sententeces are kinda run togeather and even though I can still tell them apart I still have no idea what you just said.

Sorry bout that.

Saber Prime wrote:It's really verry simple.

There's a Justice League episode (haven't seen it just read about it) with alternate universe versions of them and in that alternate universe all the criminals are lobotomized. (spelling) Both that universe and the "mainstream" universe are part of the same multiverse. Both versions of the Justice League characters were developed by the same wrighters. Therefor both the Superman from the Mainstream universe and the lobotimized criminals universe are the same characters.

Who writes the characters has nothing to do with wether or not they are different characters.As it is the writter of that episode was different then the writter who wrote the first JLA episode.Useing you theroy every time DC changes the writting staff on the Batman comics [witch by the way is about every 6 issues these days] then Batman would be a different character then the guy he was under a different writter.

And by the way the writter of the episode you mention of JLU was not the same writter who wrote the first episoode of JLU or the same writter who wrote the first JLA episode....so the writter who wrote the counterpart characters was not the same one who wrote the regular characters.

Saber Prime wrote:Batman and TheBatman are not from the same multiverse. Batman that I'm most familiar with is from the late 90's. TheBatman is the current running series on Kid's WB from entirly different wrighters. Both are set in the current time periods for when the shows aired. In other words different characters.

their from different universes but the same multiverse.Its the DC multiverse.The writters have nothing to do with it.

This is taken from wiki on the DC comics multiverse [I know they cant always be trusted but read it any way.]

The concept of a shared universe was originally pioneered by the DC Comics (originally known as National Periodical Publications) and in particular by writer Gardner Fox. The fact that DC Comics Characters coexisted in the same world was first established in All Star Comics #3 (1940) where several superheroes (who starred in separate stories in the series up to that point) met each other, and soon founded the superhero team, the Justice Society of America. However, the majority of National/DC's publications continued to be written with little regard of maintaining continuity with each other for the first few decades.

Over the course of its publishing history, DC has introduced different versions of its characters, sometimes presenting them as if the earlier version had never existed. For example, they introduced new versions of the Flash, Green Lantern, and Hawkman in the late 1950s, with similar powers but different names and personal histories. Similarly, they had characters such as Batman whose early adventures set in the 1940s could not easily be reconciled with stories featuring a still-youthful man in the 1970s. To explain this, they introduced the idea of the multiverse in Flash #123 (1961) where the Silver Age Flash met his Golden Age counterpart. In addition to allowing the conflicting stories to "co-exist", it allowed the differing versions of characters to meet, and even team up to combat cross-universe threats. The writers gave designations such as "Earth-One", "Earth-Two", and so forth, to certain universes, designations which at times were also used by the characters themselves.

Over the years, as the number of titles published increased and the volume of past stories accumulated, it became increasingly difficult to maintain internal consistency. In order to continue publishing stories of its most popular characters, maintaining the status quo became necessary. Although retcons were used as a way to explain apparent inconsistencies in stories written, editors at DC came to consider the varied continuity of multiple Earths too difficult to keep track of, and feared that it was an obstacle to accessibility for new readers. To address this, they published the cross-universe miniseries Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1985, which merged universes and characters, reducing the Multiverse to a single DC Universe with a single history. However, this arrangement removed the mechanism DC had been using to deal with the passage of time in the real world without having the characters age in the comics. Crisis also had failed to establish a coherent future history for the DC Universe, with conflicting versions of the future. The Zero Hour limited series (1994) gave them an opportunity to revise timelines and rewrite the DC Universe history.

As a result, almost once per decade since the 1980s, the DC Universe experiences a major crisis that allows any number of changes from new versions of characters to appear as a whole reboot of the universe, restarting nominally all the characters into a new and modernized version of their lives.

Meanwhile, DC has published occasional stories called "Elseworlds", which often presented alternate versions of their characters. For example, one told the story of Bruce Wayne as a Green Lantern, another presented Kal-El as if he'd lived in the time of the American Civil War. In 1998, The Kingdom reintroduced a variant of the old Multiverse concept called Hypertime which essentially allows for alternate versions of characters and worlds again. The entire process was parodied in Alan Moore's meta-comic, "Supreme: Story of the Year".

The Infinite Crisis event (2005-2006) remade the DC Universe yet again, with the changes made currently being determined. The limited series "52" (2006-2007) established that a new multiverse now exists.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:By either yours or my standards both of these life event changes could not lead to the same ending.
I was trying to exsplain the difference between a person and a character. These two Mr. Freezes are not part of the same multiverse. They are different characters because they come from different wrighters.

Its the same multiverse.The so called "multiverse" in question is the one of DC comics.All of the diffrent universes that contain versions of DC comics characters are part of the same multiverse.
Just like all the different Transformerse univerese's ,Maevel U.S. G1,Marvel U.K. G1,G1 U.S. toon,G1 toy bio ,Dreamwave G1,Beast Wars,Armada toon,Armada comic,Energon toon,Energon comic,Cybbertron toon,The New animated TF Toon The Live action film and all the others that I missed are all part of one big multiverse.

DC comics has a multiverse and DC animated as a multiverse witch in a sence can be considered part of DC's comic multiverse.

Thats how a multiverse works in the world of publication.........many different universe's within one multiverse oned by what ever publisher we're talking about at the time.

Saber Prime wrote:They do not have the same birthdate either as the current Mr. Freeze from TheBatman is technically YOUNGER than the Mr. Freeze from the older Batman cartoons. All the cartoons are set in present time yet the characters are aprox. the same age now as they were in the 80's and 90's.

Again their exsact birthdates is irrevelant.Every time they have to reboot the characters their year of birth has to change other wise Batman and Superman would both be 105 years old by now or Spiderman would be closing on 60 years old now.Both Batman's are comprobile in age to each other in the time framse an the points in their careers.As I said to you before in the world of fiction a birth date has nothing to do with anything.

When Spiderman of the main stream universe made his first apperance it was 1962 and he was about 17 years old........Spiderman now ,of the same universe,is about 22 or 25 years old.Obviously his year of birth changed or he would be close to 70 years old.Its the same with the Freeze from the 90's TV show and the one from the new show.

Their not different characters because of a different birth date,,,,its because of the way the events of their live's played out.And the same would be the case for the 2 different Kirks.As well as any possible real life different universe versions of you and me.

Saber Prime wrote: Huh? Seriously your sententeces are kinda run togeather and even though I can still tell them apart I still have no idea what you just said.

Sorry bout that.

Saber Prime wrote:It's really verry simple.

There's a Justice League episode (haven't seen it just read about it) with alternate universe versions of them and in that alternate universe all the criminals are lobotomized. (spelling) Both that universe and the "mainstream" universe are part of the same multiverse. Both versions of the Justice League characters were developed by the same wrighters. Therefor both the Superman from the Mainstream universe and the lobotimized criminals universe are the same characters.

Who writes the characters has nothing to do with wether or not they are different characters.As it is the writter of that episode was different then the writter who wrote the first JLA episode.Useing you theroy every time DC changes the writting staff on the Batman comics [witch by the way is about every 6 issues these days] then Batman would be a different character then the guy he was under a different writter.

And by the way the writter of the episode you mention of JLU was not the same writter who wrote the first episoode of JLU or the same writter who wrote the first JLA episode....so the writter who wrote the counterpart characters was not the same one who wrote the regular characters.

Saber Prime wrote:Batman and TheBatman are not from the same multiverse. Batman that I'm most familiar with is from the late 90's. TheBatman is the current running series on Kid's WB from entirly different wrighters. Both are set in the current time periods for when the shows aired. In other words different characters.

their from different universes but the same multiverse.Its the DC multiverse.The writters have nothing to do with it.

This is taken from wiki on the DC comics multiverse [I know they cant always be trusted but read it any way.]

The concept of a shared universe was originally pioneered by the DC Comics (originally known as National Periodical Publications) and in particular by writer Gardner Fox. The fact that DC Comics Characters coexisted in the same world was first established in All Star Comics #3 (1940) where several superheroes (who starred in separate stories in the series up to that point) met each other, and soon founded the superhero team, the Justice Society of America. However, the majority of National/DC's publications continued to be written with little regard of maintaining continuity with each other for the first few decades.

Over the course of its publishing history, DC has introduced different versions of its characters, sometimes presenting them as if the earlier version had never existed. For example, they introduced new versions of the Flash, Green Lantern, and Hawkman in the late 1950s, with similar powers but different names and personal histories. Similarly, they had characters such as Batman whose early adventures set in the 1940s could not easily be reconciled with stories featuring a still-youthful man in the 1970s. To explain this, they introduced the idea of the multiverse in Flash #123 (1961) where the Silver Age Flash met his Golden Age counterpart. In addition to allowing the conflicting stories to "co-exist", it allowed the differing versions of characters to meet, and even team up to combat cross-universe threats. The writers gave designations such as "Earth-One", "Earth-Two", and so forth, to certain universes, designations which at times were also used by the characters themselves.

Over the years, as the number of titles published increased and the volume of past stories accumulated, it became increasingly difficult to maintain internal consistency. In order to continue publishing stories of its most popular characters, maintaining the status quo became necessary. Although retcons were used as a way to explain apparent inconsistencies in stories written, editors at DC came to consider the varied continuity of multiple Earths too difficult to keep track of, and feared that it was an obstacle to accessibility for new readers. To address this, they published the cross-universe miniseries Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1985, which merged universes and characters, reducing the Multiverse to a single DC Universe with a single history. However, this arrangement removed the mechanism DC had been using to deal with the passage of time in the real world without having the characters age in the comics. Crisis also had failed to establish a coherent future history for the DC Universe, with conflicting versions of the future. The Zero Hour limited series (1994) gave them an opportunity to revise timelines and rewrite the DC Universe history.

As a result, almost once per decade since the 1980s, the DC Universe experiences a major crisis that allows any number of changes from new versions of characters to appear as a whole reboot of the universe, restarting nominally all the characters into a new and modernized version of their lives.

Meanwhile, DC has published occasional stories called "Elseworlds", which often presented alternate versions of their characters. For example, one told the story of Bruce Wayne as a Green Lantern, another presented Kal-El as if he'd lived in the time of the American Civil War. In 1998, The Kingdom reintroduced a variant of the old Multiverse concept called Hypertime which essentially allows for alternate versions of characters and worlds again. The entire process was parodied in Alan Moore's meta-comic, "Supreme: Story of the Year".

The Infinite Crisis event (2005-2006) remade the DC Universe yet again, with the changes made currently being determined. The limited series "52" (2006-2007) established that a new multiverse now exists.

OK I see where the confusion is now.

Remember what I said. I belive there actully is a Multivers.

You're talking about different continuitys not different universe.

As I've tried to exsplain (and done a horible job of doing so) the story lines of Batman the Animated series and TheBatman can NOT exsist in the same Multiverse. They are NOT different universe versions of eachother.

Likewise G1 Transformers and Movie Transformers are not different universe versions of eachother. In order for one to truely be a different universe of the other and to exsist in the same multiverse Sam in the movie would have to be about 37 years old or Ron would be Spike and Sam is actully Danieal.

They are different continuitys not different universes. Universe is what we live in not something DC, Marvel, or Hasbro can own and controll. Continuity is what you're describing. In which case characters of different continuitys are different characters.

The whole thing you described with the Mirror Universe on Star Trek, that actully is two different universes in the same continuity/multiverse.

The writters have nothing to do with it.

The wrighters have everything to do with it. Your own quote that you posted in red after than even says the same thing.

publications continued to be written with little regard of maintaining continuity

Every time they break from Continuity they have to "remake" the Multiverse. If they were still wrighting storys in the same continuty/multiverse they were when they started Batman would be dead by now. Old age. Superman as a Kryptonian might still be alive sence he doesn't age like humans do.

Saber Prime wrote:OK I see where the confusion is now.

Remember what I said. I belive there actully is a Multivers.

You're talking about different continuitys not different universe.

As I've tried to exsplain (and done a horible job of doing so) the story lines of Batman the Animated series and TheBatman can NOT exsist in the same Multiverse. They are NOT different universe versions of eachother.

Likewise G1 Transformers and Movie Transformers are not different universe versions of eachother. In order for one to truely be a different universe of the other and to exsist in the same multiverse Sam in the movie would have to be about 37 years old or Ron would be Spike and Sam is actully Danieal.

They are different continuitys not different universes. Universe is what we live in not something DC, Marvel, or Hasbro can own and controll. Continuity is what you're describing. In which case characters of different continuitys are different characters.

The whole thing you described with the Mirror Universe on Star Trek, that actully is two different universes in the same continuity/multiverse.

You just dont understand the basics.Continuity is a term that is used to describe a universe's flow of events not to describe the universe it self.Transformers G1 and the new Movie and all the other incranations are part of the same multiverse its been stated by Hasbro them selfs.

Dc has also stated that all of its Animated versions of its characters are all part of one big Animated Multiverse.

Thats the reason for having a multiverse...so that different versions of a character from different time periods can interact with each other.Or to take familur characters and put them in different time periods.

DC has done this with Batman before and with Superman right now.

Marvel has a monthly comic called The Exsiles wher the characters in the book travel trew marvels multiverse's and have adventures.In some of those universe's they have been to the Marvel heroes started their carries at different time periodes.One Had Captain America fighting durring the civil war.He was still a counterpart of the mainstream universe [#616] version of Captain America.

deffinition of the word contnuity......
From websters

Main Entry:
con·ti·nu·i·ty Listen to the pronunciation of continuity
Pronunciation:
\ˌkän-tə-ˈnü-ə-tē, -ˈnyü-\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural con·ti·nu·i·ties
Date:
15th century

1 a: uninterrupted connection, succession, or union b: uninterrupted duration or continuation especially without essential change2: something that has, exhibits, or provides continuity: as a: a script or scenario in the performing arts b: transitional spoken or musical matter especially for a radio or television program c: the story and dialogue of a comic strip3: the property of being mathematically continuous

and from Dictionary.com

con·ti·nu·i·ty /ˌkɒntnˈuɪti, -tnˈyu/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-tn-oo-i-tee, -tn-yoo] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
1. the state or quality of being continuous.
2. a continuous or connected whole.
3. a motion-picture scenario giving the complete action, scenes, etc., in detail and in the order in which they are to be shown on the screen.
4. the spoken part of a radio or television script that serves as introductory or transitional material on a nondramatic program.
5. Mathematics. the property of a continuous function.
6. Usually, continuities. sets of merchandise, as dinnerware or encyclopedias, given free or sold cheaply by a store to shoppers as a sales promotion.

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote: The wrighters have everything to do with it. Your own quote that you posted in red after than even says the same thing.

publications continued to be written with little regard of maintaining continuity

Every time they break from Continuity they have to "remake" the Multiverse. If they were still wrighting storys in the same continuty/multiverse they were when they started Batman would be dead by now. Old age. Superman as a Kryptonian might still be alive sence he doesn't age like humans do.

No because changing continuty does not always mean changing the multiverse. Sometimes changing one characters continuty alone doesnt even effect the the universe he lives in as a whole much less the multiverse.The section I posted was relating to a time in DC's publication history where they tried to abolish their multiverse all together.They wanted to stream line their characters to just one version of each because there were way to many of them before.

DC has recently reastablished a multiverse by the way.

Now who's being contridicting.

Nothing you just posted makes one bit of sence because everything you just said contridicts itself.

First of all I know what continuty means the question is do you?

This statement here contridicts the defintion you posted.

No because changing continuty does not always mean changing the multiverse.

Sence continuty is

1 a: uninterrupted connection, succession, or union b: uninterrupted duration or continuation especially without essential change2: something that has, exhibits, or provides continuity: as a: a script or scenario in the performing arts b: transitional spoken or musical matter especially for a radio or television program c: the story and dialogue of a comic strip3: the property of being mathematically continuous

and a Multiverse can exsist in the same continuty that would mean if the continuty is changed than so is the Multiverse.

One universe can be different from the other without disrupting the continuity as is done with the Mirror universe in Star Trek but you can do so the other way around.

I'm not really sure you understand the definitions at this point because everything you've said in these last 2-3 posts contridicts the things you have quoted.[/quote]

Saber Prime wrote:Now who's being contridicting.

Nothing you just posted makes one bit of sence because everything you just said contridicts itself.

First of all I know what continuty means the question is do you?

This statement here contridicts the defintion you posted.

No because changing continuty does not always mean changing the multiverse.

I was making a statement of fact.In the DC universe serent facts about a character have been omited and added to over the years.Some as recently as a years or two ago.....these changes didnt effect the universe at large nor did it effect the multiverse.

Saber Prime wrote:Sence continuty is

1 a: uninterrupted connection, succession, or union b: uninterrupted duration or continuation especially without essential change2: something that has, exhibits, or provides continuity: as a: a script or scenario in the performing arts b: transitional spoken or musical matter especially for a radio or television program c: the story and dialogue of a comic strip3: the property of being mathematically continuous

and a Multiverse can exsist in the same continuty that would mean if the continuty is changed than so is the Multiverse.

One universe can be different from the other without disrupting the continuity as is done with the Mirror universe in Star Trek but you can do so the other way around.

I'm not really sure you understand the definitions at this point because everything you've said in these last 2-3 posts contridicts the things you have quoted.

[/quote]

It only seems that way because you think the two words continuity and multiverse have a simular deffiniation.They dont.You have mixed up the two on a few different issues.....saying that all the TF universes are different multiverse's when Hasbro them selfs has said that its all one multiverse.

You have a very altered way of seeing it all.

You clame that a different universe counterpart of a character is the same character because they have the same birth date.Even if they lived completly different lives there the same.....if ones a hero and the other a killer there still the same.

Then you say that 2 or more clones of a character born on the same day are different characters from each other because they are living different lives from each other.

This does not make any sence.

You also claim that if a different writter writes a knowen character then he is a different character.

You say the the 90's Batman toon is part of a different muliverse then the new cartoon because it has different writters.If thats the case then the 90's Batman toon its self must have at least 15 different multiverse in it because thats at least how many different writters work on the show in the first few seasons and lets not forget when they combined the show with that of Superman....or the Justic League and then Justic League Unlimited.

DC has gone on record claiming that Batman the animated series,Superman the animated series,The Adventures of Batman and Robin,Batman/Superman, The Justice League and the Justice League Unlimited were all in the same universe.....but by your standers they are all different because they had different writters0

Shows like Batman Beyond ,the Tean Titans and all the other toons they have done before were all part of a DC animated multiverse.

Your method of judgeing these issues are making no sence at all.

Whatever definition of "Multiverse" DC uses when talking about continuity is entire different from my belife of what the Multiverse is.

In case your wondering, I first came to the conclusion there was a Multiverse in high school. Is was early in the morning, my first day as a Freshman. I was alone in one of the buildings and half asleep still. (I had to be at school earlier than everyone elce that day because my dad was still working summer hours.) So as we walking into one of the faculty rooms I had this day dream where I was rollerskating down the railing at the same time I was actully walking down the stairs.

Now in this universe I hate sports, all sports, can't stand them. Reason for this, when I was about 4 or 5 my brother had a bike. Can't remember if he was just learning or what but I saw him fall off that bike. From that point I was scared away from anything on wheels. Basketball, use to play with my cousin, he broke his arm one day while we were playing. I've hated sports ever sence.

My guess is in this alternate universe I never saw either of these events. I took up sports just as any kid does and there you go another version of me who rollerblades.

This version of me eventually got scared away from going outside at all. I'd either be drawling or watching TV. My dad and my great grandmother (who died shortly before I finished school) got me started on drawling. My dad of course drew Mallardman when he was in High School. He had that drawling along with a bunch of others in a portfolio that I found at a fairly early age. My great grandmother even fighting arthritis and all the way up to her death was still and active artist. She drew pictures of Betty Boop (not profesionally but that same well known character), her dog (now my dog, only thing I have left of her), and verious other things. What that lead to was a verry artistic version of me. By the time I started Kindergarden I had allready outgrown stick figures.

Straingly enough even though I started good I didn't really improve much and instead exspanded to other fourms of art. Got an intrest in acting, went to presue that and still am allthough I haven't been on stage sence high school.

Still you can see how the simple choice of "do I want to go outside and play with my brother/cousin or stay inside and watch Star Trek with daddy" can change my whole life. It's allso kinda ironic that by not going outside to play to begine with would have made me more active later in life.

Saber Prime wrote:Whatever definition of "Multiverse" DC uses when talking about continuity is entire different from my belife of what the Multiverse is.

In case your wondering, I first came to the conclusion there was a Multiverse in high school. Is was early in the morning, my first day as a Freshman. I was alone in one of the buildings and half asleep still. (I had to be at school earlier than everyone elce that day because my dad was still working summer hours.) So as we walking into one of the faculty rooms I had this day dream where I was rollerskating down the railing at the same time I was actully walking down the stairs.

Now in this universe I hate sports, all sports, can't stand them. Reason for this, when I was about 4 or 5 my brother had a bike. Can't remember if he was just learning or what but I saw him fall off that bike. From that point I was scared away from anything on wheels. Basketball, use to play with my cousin, he broke his arm one day while we were playing. I've hated sports ever sence.

My guess is in this alternate universe I never saw either of these events. I took up sports just as any kid does and there you go another version of me who rollerblades.

This version of me eventually got scared away from going outside at all. I'd either be drawling or watching TV. My dad and my great grandmother (who died shortly before I finished school) got me started on drawling. My dad of course drew Mallardman when he was in High School. He had that drawling along with a bunch of others in a portfolio that I found at a fairly early age. My great grandmother even fighting arthritis and all the way up to her death was still and active artist. She drew pictures of Betty Boop (not profesionally but that same well known character), her dog (now my dog, only thing I have left of her), and verious other things. What that lead to was a verry artistic version of me. By the time I started Kindergarden I had allready outgrown stick figures.

Straingly enough even though I started good I didn't really improve much and instead exspanded to other fourms of art. Got an intrest in acting, went to presue that and still am allthough I haven't been on stage sence high school.

Still you can see how the simple choice of "do I want to go outside and play with my brother/cousin or stay inside and watch Star Trek with daddy" can change my whole life. It's allso kinda ironic that by not going outside to play to begine with would have made me more active later in life.

Well by my standers....if your life were a work of fiction....and there was a alternate universe of you that loved sports and was very out going while you hated sports and was afraid of going out.....then you would be two different characters.....conected on a strange level but still different characters.

But you are intitled to your belief as am I.Its not like we can ever really know in our life times witch view is right. And when it conserens ficstional characters its all up to reader to chose for himself.

Well this was a very long and entertaining debate.....and we didnt even resort to any name calling........we should do this again

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Now who's being contridicting.

Nothing you just posted makes one bit of sence because everything you just said contridicts itself.

First of all I know what continuty means the question is do you?

This statement here contridicts the defintion you posted.

No because changing continuty does not always mean changing the multiverse.

I was making a statement of fact.In the DC universe serent facts about a character have been omited and added to over the years.Some as recently as a years or two ago.....these changes didnt effect the universe at large nor did it effect the multiverse.

Saber Prime wrote:Sence continuty is

1 a: uninterrupted connection, succession, or union b: uninterrupted duration or continuation especially without essential change2: something that has, exhibits, or provides continuity: as a: a script or scenario in the performing arts b: transitional spoken or musical matter especially for a radio or television program c: the story and dialogue of a comic strip3: the property of being mathematically continuous

and a Multiverse can exsist in the same continuty that would mean if the continuty is changed than so is the Multiverse.

One universe can be different from the other without disrupting the continuity as is done with the Mirror universe in Star Trek but you can do so the other way around.

I'm not really sure you understand the definitions at this point because everything you've said in these last 2-3 posts contridicts the things you have quoted.

It only seems that way because you think the two words continuity and multiverse have a simular deffiniation.They dont.You have mixed up the two on a few different issues.....saying that all the TF universes are different multiverse's when Hasbro them selfs has said that its all one multiverse.

You have a very altered way of seeing it all.

You clame that a different universe counterpart of a character is the same character because they have the same birth date.Even if they lived completly different lives there the same.....if ones a hero and the other a killer there still the same.

Then you say that 2 or more clones of a character born on the same day are different characters from each other because they are living different lives from each other.

This does not make any sence.

You also claim that if a different writter writes a knowen character then he is a different character.

You say the the 90's Batman toon is part of a different muliverse then the new cartoon because it has different writters.If thats the case then the 90's Batman toon its self must have at least 15 different multiverse in it because thats at least how many different writters work on the show in the first few seasons and lets not forget when they combined the show with that of Superman....or the Justic League and then Justic League Unlimited.

DC has gone on record claiming that Batman the animated series,Superman the animated series,The Adventures of Batman and Robin,Batman/Superman, The Justice League and the Justice League Unlimited were all in the same universe.....but by your standers they are all different because they had different writters0

Shows like Batman Beyond ,the Tean Titans and all the other toons they have done before were all part of a DC animated multiverse.

Your method of judgeing these issues are making no sence at all.[/quote]

Makes perfect sence actully. If you think from my point of view for a sec.

Forget everything you think I said because you got the wrong meaning anyway and I did a crappy job of exsplaining.

Just read the quotes you posted again but think of the word multiverse in my definition rather than whatever Hasbro thinks it is.

If you go by my definition of multiverse, that each universe is a continuity of the same starting point you'll realize that the movie and G1 are not the same Multiverse.

The characters would have to age and there would have to be some reasoning for a character such as Mr. Freeze to be a jewel thief weather or not he has a wife. Sence there is no reasoning and Batman is not older than he was it can not be the same Multiverse.

New continuity = new multiverse I can't exsplain it any simpler than that so if you still don't understand than we have a lost cause.

Now as for you, this is like the third time I've asked this and I've goten no answer. Please exsplain why you belive characters such as lets say Johnathan Archer of the mainstream universe and the Mirrior universe to be different characters. Or we could go with the Kirks if you prefer.

Both versions are from the same continuty but different universes. Same continuity same Kirk.

Not like Live Action Kirk and Animated Kirk. Different Continuties different Kirks.

So please exsplain your belifes because I don't understand you at all.