The Energon Pub

I don't think it's so much an arguement of their exclusiveness, but their desirablity. Obviously the Henkei versions do take away the exclusiveness of the Games of Deception set, because of the reasons that have been noted. What has changed however is the desirability of the Botcon set. They are not the only game in town now. Collectors who were wanting to complete their classics seekers now have second cheaper option, thus reducing the demand for the Botcon versions and lowering their value on the secondary market. I don't think there are many collectors out there who wanted the Games of Deception set just for the fact that they were Botcon exclusives, they wanted them to complete their classics seekers.

El Duque wrote: ...I don't think there are many collectors out there who wanted the Games of Deception set just for the fact that they were Botcon exclusives, they wanted them to complete their classics seekers.

I think that's pretty much the key that a lot of folks are over looking here.

GetterDragun wrote:

Merc With A Mouth wrote:No what you hear is the outcry of fans saying that completing a line inside of a convention was wrong. And no this isn't like past Botcons toys where they used G1 characters (IE Ironhide and Ratchet), because they were never intended for the Universe or Energon toy lines.

Um, then why do you complain for all the other lines that didn't have a full set of seekers? And what makes a set, because G1 had them? Ans how do you know what they inteded? I think it is selfish to think that you deserve all that you want.

I have complained every time they make Seekers and don't give us three. I'll complain if Acid Storm doesn't get his Rainmaker wingmates. And yes The Seekers are a set in Classics in my mind because they were in G1. Classics was G1 re imagined remember? It takes place in the G1 Comic book universe and ignores the events of G1 (time traveling spawned an alternate reality. Long story.)

Personally I think you're selfish for thinking that no one but people who bought Botcon toys deserve a Classics or Henkei Thundercracker,Dirge,Skywarp, whoever.

GetterDragun wrote:At the time HASBRO DID NOT INTEND TO MAKE MORE CLASSICS (or so the say), so it was actually great of them to give some the opportunity to get them.

I can't say what they intended but it's a little obvious that things have changed since now and then. What with Acid Storm and all. But what's also changed in the three years since that statement is that the Henkei line didn't exist, and now it does. At the time Takara didn't intend to make Henkei anything. (or so they say), so it to me, was actually great of them to give another opportunity to get the characters for those that couldn't.

On this we can agree to disagree. Because it's growing obvious to me that you won't change your opinion and I won't change mine. I will say this though. I do own some Botcon and Club toys. If the Seacons get an Encore reissue I won't be mad. I'll get the G1 version to get all 3 sets. If Shadow Striker and Roulette get new Henkei toys (new or old molds) with all kinds of chrome I'm buying them both because I love the hell out of those broads.

But I doubt they'll be made since they're original characters who are unknown to the Asian market. Thundercracker, Thrust, Dirge, and Dreadwind (if they use the Botcon mold) are main characters in the G1 series. You can't honestly ask the Japanese fans to do without main characters. It's like the US having to do without a toy because it was Japanese exclusive. And these three toys (4 counting Skywarp he was exclusive too) from what I've been told are either store or convention exclusives in Japan. It's fair for everyone right?

Merc With A Mouth wrote: If the Seacons get an Encore reissue I won't be mad.

Actually, that's a good point. If TakaTomy does an Encore reissue of the Seacons, will people who bought the club version be upset about that?

MagnusPrimal wrote:

Merc With A Mouth wrote: If the Seacons get an Encore reissue I won't be mad.

Actually, that's a good point. If TakaTomy does an Encore reissue of the Seacons, will people who bought the club version be upset about that?

It's the same characters. It's no longer exclusive. How dare you and such. So on and so forth. It'll be like that. Regardless of whether it's the club colors or not.

GetterDragun wrote:

Koloth wrote:Here is an interesting query. Why the hell is anyone worried about the value of a toy? How many times have we said on this board that Transformers isn't an investment it is a hobby? If you want to invest your money in something buy stock or realestate. Ok, maybe not right now but you know what I mean.

It's not abut value to me It's about the challenge of getting a figure. Seriously, there are so many Transformers, that something limited or exclusive makes it challenging to get, which makes it more exciting. It's nice to save up for something that you really want, vs. finding everything in a store.

But you're still not finding the Botcon Seekers in the store. Realistically the Henkei seekers and the Botcon seekers are different toys. Same character different molds. Meaning the Botcon Seakers will still be desirable to the collectors that are willing to note the differences.

I'm one of them. I see the differences and I know I will still want Botcon Thrust at the end of the day. I think Henkei Dirge will be the better of that lot. But because I don't have a 6 figure income I will take what I can get and be happy with it. And should I manage to procure the Botcon set on the cheap I will be happy with that too.

This whole, "it's just a toy what's the big deal" concept really doesn't fly. Is Amazing Spider-man #1 just a child's comic book? Like it not TF's are considered a collectible and with that comes secondary market values. There's just no getting around this.

El Duque wrote:This whole, "it's just a toy what's the big deal" concept really doesn't fly. Is Amazing Spider-man #1 just a child's comic book? Like it not TF's are considered a collectible and with that comes secondary market values. There's just no getting around this.

But ASM #1 has been reprinted. Several MILLION times. All that usually changes is the packaging, what comes with it, and coloring. There are actually MORE differences between these seekers and each other.

turkishproverb wrote:

El Duque wrote:This whole, "it's just a toy what's the big deal" concept really doesn't fly. Is Amazing Spider-man #1 just a child's comic book? Like it not TF's are considered a collectible and with that comes secondary market values. There's just no getting around this.

But ASM #1 has been reprinted. Several MILLION times. All that usually changes is the packaging, what comes with it, and coloring. There are actually MORE differences between these seekers and each other.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. My point was that saying, "Oh these are just toys, who cares?" isn't valid any more than saying ASM #1, "just a comic, who cares?" My point is TF are collectibles.

El Duque wrote:

turkishproverb wrote:

El Duque wrote:This whole, "it's just a toy what's the big deal" concept really doesn't fly. Is Amazing Spider-man #1 just a child's comic book? Like it not TF's are considered a collectible and with that comes secondary market values. There's just no getting around this.

But ASM #1 has been reprinted. Several MILLION times. All that usually changes is the packaging, what comes with it, and coloring. There are actually MORE differences between these seekers and each other.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. My point was that saying, "Oh these are just toys, who cares?" isn't valid any more than saying ASM #1, "just a comic, who cares?" My point is TF are collectibles.

I was just taking the analogy to it's logical extension, which (to me) seemed to support the Henkei versions.

I was just taking the analogy to it's logical extension, which (to me) seemed to support the Henkei versions.

I understand what your saying, but I think the two markets are too different to make that kind comparison. Reprinting ASM #1 tomorrow would not devalue the original ASM #1 in the least, but the Henkei TC did devalue Botcon TC. I just did a search on Ebay for ended auctions of Botcon TC. I found three ended auctions in the last week with the highest ending at $150.00. Prior to the Henkei version this figure was going for over $300.00.

Geez, it didn't take Nostradamus to predict that the thread would degenerate into THIS again. Why not just copy/paste all the arguments about TC and SW to save effort?

El Duque wrote:

I was just taking the analogy to it's logical extension, which (to me) seemed to support the Henkei versions.

I understand what your saying, but I think the two markets are too different to make that kind comparison. Reprinting ASM #1 tomorrow would not devalue the original ASM #1 in the least, but the Henkei TC did devalue Botcon TC. I just did a search on Ebay for ended auctions of Botcon TC. I found three ended auctions in the last week with the highest ending at $150.00. Prior to the Henkei version this figure was going for over $300.00.

Funny, I just saw a botcon 2007 set go for over 400 on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=170275940099. I know cause I was bidding on it.

And if you mean the seekers specifically, than yes, those have gone down a little for the moment, the same way singles of a fairly new popular run go down for a while when the TPB comes out.

El Duque wrote:

I was just taking the analogy to it's logical extension, which (to me) seemed to support the Henkei versions.

I understand what your saying, but I think the two markets are too different to make that kind comparison. Reprinting ASM #1 tomorrow would not devalue the original ASM #1 in the least, but the Henkei TC did devalue Botcon TC. I just did a search on Ebay for ended auctions of Botcon TC. I found three ended auctions in the last week with the highest ending at $150.00. Prior to the Henkei version this figure was going for over $300.00.

And it will go back up, no worries.

I think the extension is very logical because it is comparable. You are literally talking about a limited run versus a slightly altered mass production. The hardcore collectors will still go out of their way to get the originals just as comic collectors will go after the original ASM#1. And they will pay a premium for the originals.

Those that just want some sort of figure that is close will go after the mass production. Hell I don't care about comic value so I buy TPBs. I buy them to read them and put them on the book shelf. I don't collect them or care for them. They are just books to me. But the people that care are concerned with the fine details that distinguise ASM#1 from reprint number 6. And the Botcon set will become the same thing in time. The hardcore collectors will care if it is the 2007 Games of Decepticons Thrust or the 2009 Henkei remold. They will. And it will show in the price in a few years. Just watch.

Merc With A Mouth wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:

Merc With A Mouth wrote:No what you hear is the outcry of fans saying that completing a line inside of a convention was wrong. And no this isn't like past Botcons toys where they used G1 characters (IE Ironhide and Ratchet), because they were never intended for the Universe or Energon toy lines.

Um, then why do you complain for all the other lines that didn't have a full set of seekers? And what makes a set, because G1 had them? Ans how do you know what they inteded? I think it is selfish to think that you deserve all that you want.

I have complained every time they make Seekers and don't give us three. I'll complain if Acid Storm doesn't get his Rainmaker wingmates. And yes The Seekers are a set in Classics in my mind because they were in G1. Classics was G1 re imagined remember? It takes place in the G1 Comic book universe and ignores the events of G1 (time traveling spawned an alternate reality. Long story.)

Personally I think you're selfish for thinking that no one but people who bought Botcon toys deserve a Classics or Henkei Thundercracker,Dirge,Skywarp, whoever.

GetterDragun wrote:At the time HASBRO DID NOT INTEND TO MAKE MORE CLASSICS (or so the say), so it was actually great of them to give some the opportunity to get them.

I can't say what they intended but it's a little obvious that things have changed since now and then. What with Acid Storm and all. But what's also changed in the three years since that statement is that the Henkei line didn't exist, and now it does. At the time Takara didn't intend to make Henkei anything. (or so they say), so it to me, was actually great of them to give another opportunity to get the characters for those that couldn't.

On this we can agree to disagree. Because it's growing obvious to me that you won't change your opinion and I won't change mine. I will say this though. I do own some Botcon and Club toys. If the Seacons get an Encore reissue I won't be mad. I'll get the G1 version to get all 3 sets. If Shadow Striker and Roulette get new Henkei toys (new or old molds) with all kinds of chrome I'm buying them both because I love the hell out of those broads.

But I doubt they'll be made since they're original characters who are unknown to the Asian market. Thundercracker, Thrust, Dirge, and Dreadwind (if they use the Botcon mold) are main characters in the G1 series. You can't honestly ask the Japanese fans to do without main characters. It's like the US having to do without a toy because it was Japanese exclusive. And these three toys (4 counting Skywarp he was exclusive too) from what I've been told are either store or convention exclusives in Japan. It's fair for everyone right?

That's not the point. The point is these were labeled as BotCon Exclusives. And it wasn't some schlock company who gave the approval to do that. I can not believe that Hasbro didn't think that these would eventually come out in some shape or form (even though they told us that). So my point is that these should have been called "BotCon Giveaway Figures" available for the first X,000 people. This would have basically meant that while these may or may never see a retail release, this is what you get for free for going to BotCon. End of story. This way when the Henkei set came out, there'd be no issue and if they neve came out, well at least diehard collectors had a chance to get a full set if they felt a full set was that important.

YOu know, I'm thinking if they had added the word "Variant" or "Set" or such to "Exclusive" it might have given them a little bit of moral high ground if the characters were released in the states, or I guess even japan (foreign releases are a separate issue in alot of ways)

turkishproverb wrote:

El Duque wrote:

I was just taking the analogy to it's logical extension, which (to me) seemed to support the Henkei versions.

I understand what your saying, but I think the two markets are too different to make that kind comparison. Reprinting ASM #1 tomorrow would not devalue the original ASM #1 in the least, but the Henkei TC did devalue Botcon TC. I just did a search on Ebay for ended auctions of Botcon TC. I found three ended auctions in the last week with the highest ending at $150.00. Prior to the Henkei version this figure was going for over $300.00.

Funny, I just saw a botcon 2007 set go for over 400 on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=170275940099. I know cause I was bidding on it.

And if you mean the seekers specifically, than yes, those have gone down a little for the moment, the same way singles of a fairly new popular run go down for a while when the TPB comes out.

Check my post, I was referring to TC specifically. The fact that an entire boxed set o Games of Deception went for 405.xx further illustrates how the value has gone down.

Koloth wrote:

El Duque wrote:

I was just taking the analogy to it's logical extension, which (to me) seemed to support the Henkei versions.

I understand what your saying, but I think the two markets are too different to make that kind comparison. Reprinting ASM #1 tomorrow would not devalue the original ASM #1 in the least, but the Henkei TC did devalue Botcon TC. I just did a search on Ebay for ended auctions of Botcon TC. I found three ended auctions in the last week with the highest ending at $150.00. Prior to the Henkei version this figure was going for over $300.00.

And it will go back up, no worries.

I think the extension is very logical because it is comparable. You are literally talking about a limited run versus a slightly altered mass production. The hardcore collectors will still go out of their way to get the originals just as comic collectors will go after the original ASM#1. And they will pay a premium for the originals.

Those that just want some sort of figure that is close will go after the mass production. Hell I don't care about comic value so I buy TPBs. I buy them to read them and put them on the book shelf. I don't collect them or care for them. They are just books to me. But the people that care are concerned with the fine details that distinguise ASM#1 from reprint number 6. And the Botcon set will become the same thing in time. The hardcore collectors will care if it is the 2007 Games of Decepticons Thrust or the 2009 Henkei remold. They will. And it will show in the price in a few years. Just watch.

Only time will tell I suppose, regarding the price. As far as hardcore collectors go, I'm not so sure. I consider myself a hardcore collector, but had I missed the Games of Deception set it wouldn't bother me in the least to finish out my seekers with a later production run. Maybe that's just me.

Nickolai wrote:Geez, it didn't take Nostradamus to predict that the thread would degenerate into THIS again. Why not just copy/paste all the arguments about TC and SW to save effort?

This is a tea party compared to when Henkei SW and TC were announced. This thread has been civil and I have enjoyed the debate.

El Duque wrote:

Nickolai wrote:Geez, it didn't take Nostradamus to predict that the thread would degenerate into THIS again. Why not just copy/paste all the arguments about TC and SW to save effort?

This is a tea party compared to when Henkei SW and TC were announced. This thread has been civil and I have enjoyed the debate.

Ditto. This one hasn't been unbearable to read, even over 12 pages. The only "degeneration" comes from those who think all of this is offensive to discuss somehow...

El Duque wrote:Check my post, I was referring to TC specifically. The fact that an entire boxed set o Games of Deception went for 405.xx further illustrates how the value has gone down.

What I'm interested to see is what happens in say six months time, when all the Henkeis have been bought. Will the price of the Botcon Seekers bounce back up? Will the Henkei ones get similar value? Who is Eric Cartman's father?

Wait, ignore the last one.

The economy is down. Prices on Botcon exclusives are going to hit a bump, rather they recieve a mass market release or not. Thats not backlash of any sort, ita just life. People don't spend as much money when they don't have as much to spend. If you want to buy exclusives, Now is the time to do it in.

As far as the exclusivity debate is concerned, I'd say AMS #1 is a valid point. I spend on both the comic, and the toy markets, and there is a good synergy between the two. A lot of overlap. Henkei seekers will feed those of us (Like myself) who want our Decepticon hordes, but won't sate the need of completists who need Specificly the rarest, most lusted after transformer exclusive of all time.

Once, as a matter of amusement to myself I took RID Megaoctane pictures, and showed them to my cousin along with pictures of his bootleg equivilent, explaining that One was an official release, and the other a cut rate bootleg. She did not surprise me as at by pegging the Real Mega Octane as the Bootleg.

The moral of that story, is that the lay person has no clue what IS and is Not an exclusive, or expensive transformer. Stop thinking they ever could. If you gave a lay person a Botcon Thundercracker and a general release Ramjet, I'd bet you ten to one they'd pick Ram as the exclusive. If you want the rest of the world to get the awesomeness of your collection, you shall be eternally disapointed. It is only to other Transformer and mecha fans that our collections have merit, and it is Their opinion that counts. For my part, I would be Far more greatly impressed that you got a MIB Thundercracker at Botcon, than that you ordered a Henkei one off of eBay 2 years after the con. Hell, you could have someone Paint you a Thundercracker for less than what either of those costs.

Sledge wrote:

El Duque wrote:Check my post, I was referring to TC specifically. The fact that an entire boxed set o Games of Deception went for 405.xx further illustrates how the value has gone down.

What I'm interested to see is what happens in say six months time, when all the Henkeis have been bought. Will the price of the Botcon Seekers bounce back up? Will the Henkei ones get similar value? Who is Eric Cartman's father?

Wait, ignore the last one.

Wasn't there an episode where they explained that Cartman's mother was also his father?

I'm sure that over time the prices will go up for Botcon and Henkei, unless TC, Dirge, and Thrust end up getting some sort of mass release.

This thread did not have nearly enough lulz in it for me to have wasted my time reading 12 pages of it.

Frankly the only thing I've taken away from the whole conversation is that yinz all have way to much time and money on your hands to searching for these figures and paying ridiculous prices for little pieces of plastic.

Having a hobby is nice, but the money some of you drop on it is obscene given what you could do with that money for the betterment of your communities.

All of you should be glad that you're fortunate enough to be able to indulge in any kind of frivolous spending... alot of people can't.
[/preaching]

Bun-Bun wrote:This thread did not have nearly enough lulz in it for me to have wasted my time reading 12 pages of it.

Frankly the only thing I've taken away from the whole conversation is that yinz all have way to much time and money on your hands to searching for these figures and paying ridiculous prices for little pieces of plastic.

Having a hobby is nice, but the money some of you drop on it is obscene given what you could do with that money for the betterment of your communities.

All of you should be glad that you're fortunate enough to be able to indulge in any kind of frivolous spending... alot of people can't.
[/preaching]

L to the O to the L

I didn't spend 6 years at Ballin University and not learn a thing or two about the PhD (Player hatin' degree for those not in the know...)