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Hey, I'd much rather make a mistake here on the fourms, than on the spreadsheet I should be working on.

Editor wrote:Hey, I'd much rather make a mistake here on the fourms, than on the spreadsheet I should be working on.

Hehe

Lastjustice wrote:
You might be cool with shock value deaths,(I want to see rampant death I'd watched a horror movie. Not a kids show based movie.) Im not. Alot of people werent in this instant. Im ok with well done deaths, as the characters death should be as big as they were in life. None of the characters were remotely honored, as they were treated like speedbumps to a new season.

It wasn't the shock value of the death that intrigued me...It wasn't the death at all...It's not like I was a little kid jumping up and down screaming "YEAH YEAH DIE YOU DIRTY AUTOBOTS DIE DIE DIE!!!" I wasn't HAPPY everyone got killed and I DO agree that they could have died more honorably...But it was the tone that the event set for the rest of the movie that excited me...I felt like I was see something real and much more grown up (from my young perspective at least)...Maybe that didn't appeal to you, but it did to me...

Lastjustice wrote:Funny I was pretty ticked with in a short time of seeing it. You very notion all bets are off is contradicted by the fact no one else died the whole freaking movie besides old characters in the begining. What you got excited about was basically a lie cause rest of the movie wasnt even remotely close to that intensity.

When I said "all bets are off" I didn't mean it like the rest of the movie was filled with people dying left and right (again, I was not some death-monger child as I seem to have given you the impression I was) I just meant the tone of the movie was so much darker than the series and the Autobots continually found theselves in what seemed like genuine danger...Not the corny antics of Megatron that you KNEW the Autobots would overcome with minimal trouble...The fact that so many of them died right off the bat indicated that there was no telling what was to happen next and no guarantee the heroes would make it through...THAT is what was exciting...And I disagree with you on that point especially, I DO think the rest of the movie was intense...Between Unicron and the Quintessons, there was some real evil to be seen that went way beyond Megatron's usual menace...

Lastjustice wrote:I always hated all new characters alt modes. Like what the hell was Kup supposed to be.(and what kind of name is Kup? That along with rodimus prime are two of the dumbest names in the new batch of characters.) They litterally were a bunch of 80s stereotypes with their bright neon colors, psuendo concepts of what the future would be.(which you could likely suggest the cars the new characters were actually intended to represent what humans were supposed be driving at that time) Complete with spike and daniel sporting the jetsons outfits and jet board.

I understand why there likely be transformers who never went to earth and wouldnt have earth based alt modes, but at the same time what they gave them were so lame. Ultra magnus and Hot rod were only things looked like was based off something in real life. Rest were just too odd and different for their own good.

Now here is a situation where it's simply a matter of preference...You liked the more realistic vehicles and that's fine...I liked them too but as I said before, I was always interested in their cybertronian forms based on the first few minutes of the first episode, and I was happy to see that get touched on a bit more in the movie and beyond...I LIKED the new forms like Arcee and Kup and Blurr...I'm not trying to imply that I liked the movie because I hated everything that came before, so don't take it that way...All I'm saying is that after two years I didn't mind them changing things up a bit...And where you seem to think I'm in some kind of vast minority and that everyone liked things the way they were so much that the movie was a big turn-off...Well, I can't remember one single kid I knew back then who had any problem with the new characters and such...We all LOVED the movie...

Lastjustice wrote:So given all that, him blasting screamer dead in the movie didnt make much sense. Him coming back and taking over did. Him blowing up screamer, and having his shots proving less than effective against Hot rod is another glaringly instant of plot armor and weakness. I mean why would he hold back against hot rod? (which he takes a couple shots holding the matrix up alone.which later in the series hes shown be less powerful than prime is.)

I think it makes plenty of sense...Once Megs came back as Galvatron it was a whole new ball-game...From that momemnt, for better or worse, the Decepticon army was completely restructured under Unicron...And even though Unicron didn't last, Galvatron's personality had changed along with his body...And he came back with TWO very strong liutenants that were both powerful and loyal...Why on earth would he need a liabilty like Starscream anymore...Him blowing Starscream away as his first act (especially since Starscream was making a real attempt at usurping leadership) makes complete sense...

As for him not using the same force with Hot Rod...Well yeah, I agree with you there...But that's simply the type of inconsistancy that plagued the series long before the movie came along...I mean, Why is Devastator a different size every time you see him? I don't even bother arguing that stuff becuase it's just the way it was and it really doesn't make any difference in the long run...

Lastjustice wrote:You wanted the villains to be menacing or not? you seem be the inconsistent one here. Galvatron drove the decepticons into the ground.

But see, I found that Galvatron being insane, so much so that his own army suffered for it, to be far more sinister and creepy...It just added to the ongoing intensity...


[

Lastjustice wrote:See my massive probelm with that is the planet he atatcked knew exactly what he was when he attacked. To fact he even told the autobots what he was when they were on the quints homeworld. If the whole deal was no world ever had any survivors to tell anyone else there was such a being, but he clearly had some logical process to what he did as he wasnt some rabid monster, so someone had to told them about unicron prior.

For them to done nothing and died is maddening. Id hope if there was ever some horrible planet killing being in the universe, other races had enough self preservation to try contact us or other worlds to try and kill it. That goes against the notion all life in the universe seems have engrained in it. Survive at any cost.

You're making a lot of assumptions here...It's not so inconceivable to imagine there are planets of peace that WOULDN'T be prepared for something like Unicron and HAVE no way to defend against him...Just because they know who he is doesn't mean they thought he was going to get them...Maybe they had just heard stories, maybe they thought they were in a safe location...Since it's not really explained, there are plenty of ways you can make sense of that...

And there's also no reason to believe that there HAVEN'T been other planets who DID rise up against Unicron...Obviously they LOST but that's the point...Noone was able to stop Unicron until the Autobots (who are the hreoes of the story)...But I wouldn't assume that every planet Unicron had come across up to this point just laid down and died just because the ONE we saw couldn't fight him...

I do, however, agree that the Matrix was a bit hokey...I mean, it doesn't bother me that much because again, that kind of stuff happens in cartoons all the time...But it didn't escape me as a child that suddenly there was this incalcuably powerful item Prime has had all this time and NEVER once mentioned or used but everyone seems to suddenly know about it...Why wouldn't Prime have just used it against Megatron ages ago? Who knows...It doesn't make a lot of sense but I can live with it because nowadays it's a solid staple in Transformers lore...

But I still don't think Unicron was difficulty at all to accept...

Lastjustice wrote:Which you couldnt be further from the truth considering it killed the series off, yeah. (one of the heavy contributing factors anyways.) I dont question you re a fan, as I see you enjoy it, just I dont think you enjoy quite for reason I do.

How do you figure? I mean honestly, before I try to argue this can you provide some evidence that the series up and died because eveyone absolutely hated the third season? I realize it ended right into the fourth, but again, I didn't know a single kid who was disliking the show at that point...

And while it's true the show was only two seasons before all the changes were made, you have to consider that it was a DAILY show...Which makes a two season show roughly the length of a four seasons of a regular weekly show...70 or so episodes is a LONG stretch, I don't think there was anything wrong with them stirring things up...

Though I was never GLAD Optimus Prime died, and I know there were kids who cried over it and angry parents and all that, I was not so deeply traumatized that I could barely go on living...And I don't know anyone who was...Transformers was pretty much my life but I still knew the difference between fantasy and reality..

Lastjustice wrote:We didnt sign up for that.

You keep saying that...But we didn't "sign up" for ANYTHING...There was no contract where they promised that the show would remain exactly as is forever...One day there was a cartoon about shape-shifting robots and it was cool and we started watching it...But it was what it was...And I was always just willing to go along for the ride rather that resist all the directional changes it wanted to make...I was a KID...I didn't care as long their were cool robots doing cool things and cool toys to go along with them...And THAT never changed...

Lastjustice wrote: This right here sums up alot of fans reactions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq1_6D9QS9Y (is swearing, dont watch at work.)

I've seen that video (and his other ones) about a million times and I LOVE them! (Look at the quote in my sig ) They are hilarious! But I don't at all see what point you're trying to prove with them...They are satires on some of the sillier aspects of the shows...And he's done several that made fun of Seasons 1 & 2, not just Season 3 and the movie...

That bit about Goldbug And Shitpiece gets me everytime ...Because the original scene with Goldbug really was a perfect example of the writer throwing something into the script to quickly explain the existance of a new toy...But that was in no way isolated to season 3...

Transfomers was NEVER a perfect show...Give me one example of a kid's cartoon that WAS (ESPECIALLY in the 80s)...The bottom line was selling toys and I think we're lucky that the show was as good as it was and has had the type of longevity it's maintained...They weren't trying to make anything profound with Transformers, but they inadvertantly set up a mythos that fans would later be able to take way beyond just what was physically presented to us...Which is why a couple of decades later, we're still sitting here debating and discussing it so indepthly

Lastjustice wrote:Long as you re enjoying it, I bring up stuff to provoke thoughts rather than provoke people heh.

I certinaly am...I completely understand that you feel differently about the movie and that doesn't bother or anger me at all...And frankly, I'm not even trying to change your mind because I know that like me, you have your views of it pretty set over a long period of time and your reasons for them...I just enjoy discussing it

Dark Awakening was the best Transformers episode ever. JMO. Also, I thought the final encounter between Hot Rod and Galvatron was great. Better than the Optimus/Megatron fight.

I grew up on the comics rather than the cartoon and what little I did see of the cartoon I wasn't impressed with. Season 2 was awful for the most part with things like Kremzeek and Lord Chumley. To see Animated start out great and continue the trend with stupidity like Professor Princess and the Headmaster really annoyed me. Though for the most part, I liked Animated.

Dark Awakening was one of the few cartoons I saw as a kid and loved it. Waited years to see Return Of Optimus Prime and the fact that the cover had Pretenders and Powermaster Prime and there was no sign of these really disappointed me. Plus the cheap glowing red gimmick for the hate plague and those annoying humans really ruined it for me. I've seen all the seasons at this stage and the awfulness of the cartoon especially compared to the Marvel comics really makes me wonder when I hear people consider it canon. Season 1 wa senjoyable. Season 3 was ok (though I can't forgive the Primacron garbage) but Season 2 was sickeningly awful. I might have liked s3 more were it not for the predominantly terrible animation.

The Movie was one of the few gems in the greatly overrated cartoon. It really raised the stakes and gave us the only good non-Decepticon villain. It killed me to see Prowl and Ironhide die but I still appreciated the seriousness of the film.

Plus while I've always despised people who are really into killing and gratuitous violence in films, I was never a fan of Optimus who I felt was annoyingly perfect. I thought Rodimus was much cooler, in the movie any way. The Hot Rod-Galvatron fight was much cooler than Megatron-Optimus. I also liked Blurr but felt Kup was a know-all pain in the aft who looked awful in either mode. Though recently acquiring his toy, I am fond of his vehicle mode now. Ironhide will always be the cool old guy.

I think the movie, while a marketing ploy to sell new figs, was a great launchpad for the new line, albiet a little early (they should have done a season 3 before the movie). The inception of unicron was something that really broke the mold in the sense that the struggle between good and evil was no longer something between the bots and cons, forcing them to unilaterally join forces. While this happened on a smaller scale in the series, never before did the two factions truely merge to face a really greater threat like they did with unicron.
Also when galvatron shot starscream, it was just starscream. When he shot hotrod, he was in the midst of transforming into rodimus (I agree with the fact that his name sux. Always felt like a cheap play on optimus' name) thus imbued with the power of the matrix. I always liked the matrix idea, added a bit of fantasy to the sci fi and I have always loved fantasy.

The only episode after the movie that had optimus prime in a leading role was 'The return of optimus prime'.
In 'The rebirth' prime seemed to be a background chracter whilst the headmasters (who seem to have just magically appeared) took center stage.

ramscreamer wrote:The only episode after the movie that had optimus prime in a leading role was 'The return of optimus prime'.
In 'The rebirth' prime seemed to be a background chracter whilst the headmasters (who seem to have just magically appeared) took center stage.

Dont forget "Dark awakening"....Optimus had a lead role in the plot of that episode.

I've often felt an urge to 'nerd-it-up' and write an article about how the 86 movie could have been done better in little ways, but as I'm a lazy creature of no work ethic, I'll just share a couple of my views here.

1. "Soundwave, jam that transmission"

Why did Megatron have to point this out to his chief espionage officer, who was standing right beside him no less? Soundwave should have lived up to his bio and taken the initiative, launching an assault on the broadcast tower of his own volition. Clearly he should have been monitoring the airwaves for distress calls and employing the appropriate countermeasure.

2. Devastator

I think it would have been fitting if it was Devastator who flew into Unicron's mouth and was promptly lip-smacked to oblivion, instead of three no-name conehead seekers. Seeing as how Devy basically used Autobot City as toilet paper and was never convincingly taken down by anyone (even the dinobots), thus establishing him as an immense, unstoppable force, it would have put a nice perspective on how powerful Unicron really was if Devy was obliterated in an instant. IT would also have spared him the indignity of taking part in season 3, appearing only as a weak, starved shell of his former self in the season opener and in 'Carnage in C-Minor' no less.

3. Ultra Magnus in the last 10 minutes

Seriously, where is he? Magnus may be a prick who couldn't give two toots about his fellowbots/men, but as a major character and a big (obvious) Autobot leader red herring, he should have at least figured into the climactic sequence. Obviously not interfering in Rod vs Galv, but perhaps an epic duel with Cyclonus would have been nice to see. It beats being crumpled up in a Junkion ship with Perceptor and thrown off-reel, anyway.

As a kid I didn't get upset when the Autobots, and Optimus Prime died. From the moment Megatron nailed Brawn, and then Prawl got destroyed I figured it was going to be a good movie. Unlike the cartoons which lets face it were very kid friendly opposed to the movie's level of violence. I'm not saying I didn't like the cartoons as I did, and still do. But after all of these years the movie definitely has more of a realistic portrayal of robots shooting at each other. Not to mention the look, and sounds were far better compared to what we got for the regular episodes.

Now that I'm older I definitely see the flaws in it, but when it came out I didn't. Like where did those shuttles come from when the Decepticons returned for the Matrix? And what happened to Snarl when the second attack came in? Actually where was he at all? Of course they had so many unanswered questions of where was everyone when the battle was taking place that could have helped? But it was a kid movie, and they couldn't really push too much more into that mix as it was.

I agree with you for the most part, but it's still one of my favorite movies. I'm happy my two favorites (Jazz and Blaster) survived, but I remember watching it on youtube about a year ago (I had heard a lot about it and wanted to watch it for myself) and thinking "Oh crap!" when the decepticons slaughtered everyone on the shuttle. I had seen most of the original show and I liked just about every character that died! And Starscream and Skywarp were my two favorite 'cons... it's still better than ROTF was (in my opinion)!

86 movie beats the hell up of Bayformers,that's for sure.but i wonder if kids today would take their own stand on Bayformers as we would do for the 86 movie? hmm..

know what, despite it being one of my favourite films I actually understand most of those criticisms of the movie. I mean, suddenly it's 20 years in the future, Spike has a son and there's a whole bunch of new Autobots?
Of course, nothing that couldn't be fixed by a couple of good animated miniseries/movies along the lines of G.I.Joe Resolute or by a comic book company that pays it's employees, but I wonder if we'll ever see that sort of thing?

I'll also say, that Ultra Magnus was right! He couldn't deal with Hot Rod and Kup's ship crashing, at the time it happened, because he was focussing on keeping alive the bots and human he had on board his own ship. Why all the hate?

Powermaster Prime wrote:86 movie beats the hell up of Bayformers,that's for sure.but i wonder if kids today would take their own stand on Bayformers as we would do for the 86 movie? hmm..

I think that younger kids who have just seen the Bayformer movies and TF Animated would defend it. I took my copy of the 86 movie to a friend's house, and he didn't care for it, stating that he liked the new movies a lot more. On the other hand, his little brother came in right after it started and LOVED it, and another good buddy of mine is a big fan of G1 and dislikes the new movies. But overall, it's mostly a matter of what's playing at the theater or on the tv that will determine it's popularity. NOT the quality.

Powermaster Prime wrote:86 movie beats the hell up of Bayformers,that's for sure.but i wonder if kids today would take their own stand on Bayformers as we would do for the 86 movie? hmm..

My niece and nephew thought was ok, but they were even bashing it a bit while watching(they absolutely hated the music.) or asking me tons of questions as it didn't make any sense to them either. They loved the new films waaay more than the 86 film. Most people who didn't see the show and weren't fans didn't care for the 86 film.


It horribly bombed for a reason. This movie was too niche in terms who would like it. Most adults who were dragged to it had little interest and were bored, and kids cried their optics out since it was too dark for them. As much as the people on these forums complain about the new films. I've yet meet anyone who said they hated the new movies in real life.

besides being from different eras, it's not a fair comparison --live action movies vs. cartoon.

I saw the '86 film on my 10th birthday and wanted Prime to come back at the end so bad, but he never did. I was shocked the whole time. I didn't cry though. I like Hot Rod, but never really got into Rodimus Prime. Contemplated getting his toy when i was a kid quite a few times, but never did b/c he looked lame.
Regardless of whether you like TFTM or not, you gotta admit they did a great job of cramming so many beloved characters into 88 min.(whatever the runtime). Everyone got a little screen time & that made it fun to watch. Despite the deaths. I can't think of any other movie -LA or cartoon- that included more characters in such a short time. Maybe X-men 3, but many didn't like that movie.

Lastjustice wrote:

Powermaster Prime wrote:86 movie beats the hell up of Bayformers,that's for sure.but i wonder if kids today would take their own stand on Bayformers as we would do for the 86 movie? hmm..

My niece and nephew thought was ok, but they were even bashing it a bit while watching(they absolutely hated the music.) or asking me tons of questions as it didn't make any sense to them either. They loved the new films waaay more than the 86 film. Most people who didn't see the show and weren't fans didn't care for the 86 film.


It horribly bombed for a reason. This movie was too niche in terms who would like it. Most adults who were dragged to it had little interest and were bored, and kids cried their optics out since it was too dark for them. As much as the people on these forums complain about the new films. I've yet meet anyone who said they hated the new movies in real life.

Pretty much this. As much as most hate to hear it in twenty years it will be the fans introduced to the series through Transformers (2007) and Revenge of the Fallen who will be defending those movies from the new fans and the latest itteration of the series that got them into it. Personally I'm a fan of G1, the '86 movie and both of the live action movies. I see no point in any fandom civil wars over which is the best (Bayverse vs. G1) because it's all the same franchise, just different visions of it.

Hopefully in two decades time fans can apply similar logic. Only time will tell.

I'm looking forward to going to the special screening in Santa monica next wknd. This will be 2 of my top ten movies hitting the big screen again within a month! AMC had a Top Gun 25th anniv. showing early this month & now TFTM Sunday. I'm stoked!

I wish somebody (hint IDW) would fill in some gaps between 1985 to 2005. I've got some ideas. Not on how the Decepticons became so powerful but how they conquered Cybertron. It's interesting to note that other than those created by Unicron, no other Cons were introduced in the movie. In fact some Cons (and Bots) introduced in season 2 didn't even make it into the movie including the Stunticons, the Combaticons, the Protectobots and the Aerobots.

Maybe the movie was written/finished before those teams were introduced.

I liked the movie. Nothing beats the original series. I do wish they would fill in the gaps in the lore. As for the live action movies they are good but I really wish they would tell a detailed interesting story instead of wasting precious time. People want to know the history and lore of Cybertron and the transformers. The new movie looks very awesome.

vectorA3 wrote:Maybe the movie was written/finished before those teams were introduced.

I found out about that after I wrote my intial statement about the 86 film. That's infact the case, as the bulk of the 86 film is just the season 1 cast. Which is where the majority of the deaths are. The majority of the season 2 additions weren't added because the movie was made around the same time as Season 2 was being made by seperate people.It took especially a long time create animated films in the 80s.

the Decepticons managed get a few newer recruits due to their numbers being rather limited in season 1, why they also took far fewer losses since they had less to give up to begin with. Likely why we see Astrotrain,Blitzwing and the Coneheads in the movie. Devastator was the lone combiner to appear.

It's still majority disapointing as the battle for Autobot city still seemed like a scrub line up(I'm sorry Superion would easily ended the fight and sent them packing.)...especially for the autobots. it definitely makes the the series feel disjointed with the film being made between season 2 and 3, but missing so many elements from season 2 as if it never happened, then season 3 having so many characters being MIA from then on.

Admittedly the cast of G1 was just too massive for it's own good. It's no wonder they decided to far more focused groups of characters in following series like Beast wars where characters are far more fleshed out and the story telling is over all better by leaps and bounds. Characters might get toys but not all them are going make an appearance on screen.

Ha. I knew it. Just wasn't 1000% sure. I remember a lot from watching the special features on the 20th anniver. edition/dvd

craggy wrote:I'll also say, that Ultra Magnus was right! He couldn't deal with Hot Rod and Kup's ship crashing, at the time it happened, because he was focussing on keeping alive the bots and human he had on board his own ship. Why all the hate?

Amen!

Capt.Failure wrote:

Lastjustice wrote:

Powermaster Prime wrote:86 movie beats the hell up of Bayformers,that's for sure.but i wonder if kids today would take their own stand on Bayformers as we would do for the 86 movie? hmm..

My niece and nephew thought was ok, but they were even bashing it a bit while watching(they absolutely hated the music.) or asking me tons of questions as it didn't make any sense to them either. They loved the new films waaay more than the 86 film. Most people who didn't see the show and weren't fans didn't care for the 86 film.


It horribly bombed for a reason. This movie was too niche in terms who would like it. Most adults who were dragged to it had little interest and were bored, and kids cried their optics out since it was too dark for them. As much as the people on these forums complain about the new films. I've yet meet anyone who said they hated the new movies in real life.

Pretty much this. As much as most hate to hear it in twenty years it will be the fans introduced to the series through Transformers (2007) and Revenge of the Fallen who will be defending those movies from the new fans and the latest itteration of the series that got them into it. Personally I'm a fan of G1, the '86 movie and both of the live action movies. I see no point in any fandom civil wars over which is the best (Bayverse vs. G1) because it's all the same franchise, just different visions of it.

Hopefully in two decades time fans can apply similar logic. Only time will tell.

There is no logical argument that can be brought forth to say Bayformers are better than G1. That is like saying the creation is better than the creator. Only a Bayjumper would say such a thing.....