NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Rogue-Primal » Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:55 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:Only Hot Rod gets the power boost from the Matrix because he's its Chosen One.

Optimus even admitted in the 1986 movie that he was never worthy to begin with back when he first got the Matrix.



And yet in that movie he tossed Megatron at least 2 yards before he was going back for his rifle. and in the Marvel comics he was able to knock back a Matrix possessed/powered Thunderwing (he only had it for 4 days if i'm right)in a non matrix powered power master form.

The only other major versions of optimus primes that i'm familiar with know where Prime has been lacking in physical power are

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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:23 pm

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Rogue-Primal wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Only Hot Rod gets the power boost from the Matrix because he's its Chosen One.

Optimus even admitted in the 1986 movie that he was never worthy to begin with back when he first got the Matrix.



And yet in that movie he tossed Megatron at least 2 yards before he was going back for his rifle. and in the Marvel comics he was able to knock back a Matrix possessed/powered Thunderwing (he only had it for 4 days if i'm right)in a non matrix powered power master form.
Both of those Optimus Primes were at later points in their lives than this one, at which points they had grown stronger and better from experience.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Rogue-Primal » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:25 pm

Motto: "I hate Decepticons but Autobot traitors are the worst."
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Sabrblade wrote:
Rogue-Primal wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Only Hot Rod gets the power boost from the Matrix because he's its Chosen One.

Optimus even admitted in the 1986 movie that he was never worthy to begin with back when he first got the Matrix.



And yet in that movie he tossed Megatron at least 2 yards before he was going back for his rifle. and in the Marvel comics he was able to knock back a Matrix possessed/powered Thunderwing (he only had it for 4 days if i'm right)in a non matrix powered power master form.
Both of those Optimus Primes were at later points in their lives than this one, at which points they had grown stronger and better from experience.


That might be what i'm forgetting. I just hope this Optimus starts showing better feats soon than just commander throwing a "allspark football" and using tactics.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Deadput » Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:04 pm

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Optimus should always be at the very least "slightly" weaker then Megatron.

You lose tension otherwise when one is never afraid for Optimus and in doing so it makes Megatron a worse antagonist because nobody will be convinced he's an actual threat.

My view personally is that in physical combat Megatron should be more about brute strength while Optimus is more dexterity/agility, this is just for physical ability not mentality.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby o.supreme » Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:37 pm

Motto: "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
I've always been of the opinion that Optimus Prime should slightly edge out Megatron. If Megatron is a 9.7 in terms of physical strength, Optimus should be a 9.9. Of course that's when all the other X factors come into play. Optimus strategy, and honor vs Megatron's deceitfulness, and dirty tactics.

Other versions in other continuities are fine. Megatron was a heck of a lot stronger in the Unicron Trilogy etc... But for the original Transformers, most of the Autobots were smaller and weaker than all the Decepticons "We aren't fighters like they are" to quote Huffer. Which is why Optimus stood as a symbol of hope and strength. No matter how strong the Decepticons are, if the "strongest" bot is on your side, you are inspired to fight on. Of course this is not withstanding later additions to the Autobots strength such as the Dinobots or Omega Supreme.

Goign another direction...has there been any news on where season 2 stands. Is it being written, directed, animated, post production? Many shows of this type are able to add a new season to Netflix about every 6 months. But I know this is a unique situation, and not sure if the pandemic has slowed things down. It would be nice to see earthrise somewhere around Jan/Feb, then Kingdom Aug/Sept of 21.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:29 pm

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o.supreme wrote:Goign another direction...has there been any news on where season 2 stands. Is it being written, directed, animated, post production? Many shows of this type are able to add a new season to Netflix about every 6 months. But I know this is a unique situation, and not sure if the pandemic has slowed things down. It would be nice to see earthrise somewhere around Jan/Feb, then Kingdom Aug/Sept of 21.
At the very least, it's been stated that Seasons 2 and 3 will not have the same writer that Season 1 had.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Rodimus Prime » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:39 pm

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Deadput wrote:You lose tension otherwise when one is never afraid for Optimus and in doing so it makes Megatron a worse antagonist because nobody will be convinced he's an actual threat.
I think that horse has left the barn. Throughout all the continuities, Optimus has almost always won in the end. Even if he himself didn't kill (or at least defeat) Megatron, he was involved somehow. The closest to Megatron winning they ever came was TF:TM, and even then Megatron couldn't be considered the winner, because had it not been for Unicron, he would have died. But I guess the other side of that coin is that had Starscream not thrown him out of Astrotrain, he might have survived. Point is, in pretty much every other instance, whether comics, cartoons or Bayverse, Prime wins. Except the last IDW story, but that doesn't really count because the 2 didn't interact much. So by now us fans are preconditioned to expect Prime to win in every new story, and for the purposes of selling toys, I don't think that will change.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Deadput » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:54 pm

Motto: "Let's kick the tires and light the fires!"
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Rodimus Prime wrote:
Deadput wrote:You lose tension otherwise when one is never afraid for Optimus and in doing so it makes Megatron a worse antagonist because nobody will be convinced he's an actual threat.
I think that horse has left the barn. Throughout all the continuities, Optimus has almost always won in the end. Even if he himself didn't kill (or at least defeat) Megatron, he was involved somehow. The closest to Megatron winning they ever came was TF:TM, and even then Megatron couldn't be considered the winner, because had it not been for Unicron, he would have died. But I guess the other side of that coin is that had Starscream not thrown him out of Astrotrain, he might have survived. Point is, in pretty much every other instance, whether comics, cartoons or Bayverse, Prime wins. Except the last IDW story, but that doesn't really count because the 2 didn't interact much. So by now us fans are preconditioned to expect Prime to win in every new story, and for the purposes of selling toys, I don't think that will change.


It's not about Megatron winning or heroes not winning the day, it's about making the victory look convincing and fought for.

I'll never expect Megatron to ever win but I always want him to put up a good fight and there to be some sort of stakes.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby blackeyedprime » Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:48 am

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G1 optimus was built to fight megatron so he should be more powerful and why megatron wants to beat him so bad, primes usually outnumbered but still finds a way to win and its not often megatron will go 1 on 1 with him (and knows he has to cheat to stand a chance, either by grabbing hostagerod or using the other Decepticons abilities). Probably lots of other g1 episodes that contradict the few examples I have given.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby ZeroWolf » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:24 am

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Which G1 prime you on about there? If i recall correctly, only G1 Prime built after megs appeared is toon G1 Prime, not comics (be they Marvel, IDW 1 & 2) or toy fiction...or any other continuity since.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby blackeyedprime » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:52 am

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ZeroWolf wrote:Which G1 prime you on about there? If i recall correctly, only G1 Prime built after megs appeared is toon G1 Prime, not comics (be they Marvel, IDW 1 & 2) or toy fiction...or any other continuity since.


Toon G1 after Orion Pax died. I always stick to the sunbow origins for G1 despite the UK? comics having the superior Dinobots origin rather than Wheeljack just getting the idea from fossils. Pretty sure Netflix series wont be featuring the dinobots if they are doing Beastwars so at leasts that is one less origin to screw up/have a different take like the old WFC games.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:56 am

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blackeyedprime wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:Which G1 prime you on about there? If i recall correctly, only G1 Prime built after megs appeared is toon G1 Prime, not comics (be they Marvel, IDW 1 & 2) or toy fiction...or any other continuity since.


Toon G1 after Orion Pax died. I always stick to the sunbow origins for G1 despite the UK? comics having the superior Dinobots origin rather than Wheeljack just getting the idea from fossils. Pretty sure Netflix series wont be featuring the dinobots if they are doing Beastwars so at leasts that is one less origin to screw up/have a different take like the old WFC games.
It was the US Marvel comics that had the Savage Land origins for the Dinobots, but that issue was canon for the UK comics too.

Though, speaking of the UK comics, according to the story titled "State Games" (which first told of Megatron's gladiator origins), Optimus's earliest-known pre-war career was as, surprisingly, Iacon's champion gladiator. Yep, Optimus Prime himself was once a gladiator.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Rogue-Primal » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:36 pm

Motto: "I hate Decepticons but Autobot traitors are the worst."
Weapon: Particle Beam Rifle
Sabrblade wrote:
blackeyedprime wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:Which G1 prime you on about there? If i recall correctly, only G1 Prime built after megs appeared is toon G1 Prime, not comics (be they Marvel, IDW 1 & 2) or toy fiction...or any other continuity since.


Toon G1 after Orion Pax died. I always stick to the sunbow origins for G1 despite the UK? comics having the superior Dinobots origin rather than Wheeljack just getting the idea from fossils. Pretty sure Netflix series wont be featuring the Dinobots if they are doing Beast Wars so at leasts that is one less origin to screw up/have a different take like the old WFC games.
It was the US Marvel comics that had the Savage Land origins for the Dinobots, but that issue was canon for the UK comics too.

Though, speaking of the UK comics, according to the story titled "State Games" (which first told of Megatron's gladiator origins), Optimus's earliest-known pre-war career was as, surprisingly, Iacon's champion gladiator. Yep, Optimus Prime himself was once a gladiator.


Is there any picture of it. I am suspecting it may have been a big inspiration for why michael bay's prime loves melee fighting more than most other primes including claws,sword and spiky Knuckle Duster (DotM) and taming Grimlock
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:58 pm

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Rogue-Primal wrote:Is there any picture of it. I am suspecting it may have been a big inspiration for why michael bay's prime loves melee fighting more than most other primes including claws,sword and spiky Knuckle Duster (DotM) and taming Grimlock


Can't really see any specific pics at the moment, but...

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The cover for the 1986 annual, featuring the story.


Megatron, a citizen of Tarn, is a successful but particularly vicious athlete. Optimus Prime is very much his equal, and the two share a somewhat acrimonious sporting rivalry. During a match between Megatron and Sunstreaker held in Tarn, Megatron cuts loose and nearly slays his opponent. Optimus intervenes, but the Overlord remains blind to Megatron's growing ambitions, and reprimands Optimus for interfering in the contest.


Plus a relevant quote, via the Wiki
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:23 pm

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Rogue-Primal wrote:Is there any picture of it. I am suspecting it may have been a big inspiration for why michael bay's prime loves melee fighting more than most other primes including claws,sword and spiky Knuckle Duster (DotM) and taming Grimlock
There is no illustration of Optimus. The only accompanying illustration for the gladiator scene depicts just Megatron and Sunstreaker.

Image

As for it inspiring the movies, I sincerely doubt anyone involved with the films would have looked to an obscure 1986 prose story from the UK back in 2007. Heck, most people just think Dreamwave's The War Within and/or IDW's Mrgatron Origin came up with Megatron's gladiator history.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Rodimus Prime » Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:24 pm

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Deadput wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Deadput wrote:You lose tension otherwise when one is never afraid for Optimus and in doing so it makes Megatron a worse antagonist because nobody will be convinced he's an actual threat.
I think that horse has left the barn. Throughout all the continuities, Optimus has almost always won in the end. Even if he himself didn't kill (or at least defeat) Megatron, he was involved somehow. The closest to Megatron winning they ever came was TF:TM, and even then Megatron couldn't be considered the winner, because had it not been for Unicron, he would have died. But I guess the other side of that coin is that had Starscream not thrown him out of Astrotrain, he might have survived. Point is, in pretty much every other instance, whether comics, cartoons or Bayverse, Prime wins. Except the last IDW story, but that doesn't really count because the 2 didn't interact much. So by now us fans are preconditioned to expect Prime to win in every new story, and for the purposes of selling toys, I don't think that will change.


It's not about Megatron winning or heroes not winning the day, it's about making the victory look convincing and fought for.

I'll never expect Megatron to ever win but I always want him to put up a good fight and there to be some sort of stakes.
But then what's the point of even caring about the conflict? If you expect a certain outcome, and history has shown you that that outcome is a certainty, does it matter what the margin of victory is? To quote that facepalm-inducing line, "It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning."
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:29 pm

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Rodimus Prime wrote:To quote that facepalm-inducing line, "It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning."
"Winning by an inch" is far more interesting and entertaining than "winning by a mile". Even if we know the win is eventually inevitable, we want the win to be fun/cool/exciting/etc., not boring or disappointing. Winning may be winning, but the entertainment factor is still important.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby aronjlove » Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:53 pm

I think we gotta realize, now more than ever with the evergreen concept, Tranformers' fiction is Hasbro's Spider-Man. Some story elements will always exist, no matter where in the multiverse the fiction may exist. Civil War on Cybertron. Optimus and Megatron were once friends/allies. There's a Matrix of Leadership or Allspark or both. They start on Cybertron and end up on Earth. Megatron is more vicious but Optimus is stronger because of will/justice/courage/PowerOfFriendship™. Just like Spider-Man will always be Peter Parker who gets bitten by a spider and lives with Aunt May because he loses Uncle Ben and leave the responsibility. They may evolve but at some point the story will be reset for new viewers, readers, or, especially, buyers of the toys.

This is why I'm not critical of Siege's storyline for the most part. Now Earthrise is a whole other story, the origin has been laid down, so they can now play with the storyline and get creative.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Deadput » Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:32 pm

Motto: "Let's kick the tires and light the fires!"
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I think if they continue using concepts like the Allspark and/or the Matrix of Leadership then I think they have to change it up with what their function/purpose is.

It's boring when they use the Allspark with almost it's exact functionality between continuities.

I think a good change for the Allspark would be to make it a grand galaxy-spanding map with locations to many different important locations such as energy resources or important facilities/planets, and making the Matrix of Leadership it's key would also tone it down, making the Matrix less of a "chosen one" gimmick but more of an extremely important responsibility, I think this would also help make Prime a little less dull as he has been in recent times.

With a function like that you could make story decisions like Optimus for example making the decision to shatter the Allspark into several fragments and spreading them out across the galaxy, that way when the Decepticons get their hands on a piece it doesn't automatically mean that the Autobots are going to lose or having to immediately get it back as opposed to the current Allspark with it's grand power.


Sabrblade wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:To quote that facepalm-inducing line, "It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning."
"Winning by an inch" is far more interesting and entertaining than "winning by a mile". Even if we know the win is eventually inevitable, we want the win to be fun/cool/exciting/etc., not boring or disappointing. Winning may be winning, but the entertainment factor is still important.


Pretty much this, if you want to really boil it down most stories are the same depending on their genre.

In action driven stories, the protagonists are most likely going to be the ones to win but it's about the journey, choices and sacrifices made to get there, we care about victories because we want to see the protagonists win.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Rodimus Prime » Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:10 am

Motto: "A knife is simple, using it ain't."
So by that train of thought, whenever a new TF story/continuity is introduced you guys get into it by thinking "I know Megatron won't win, but let's see how close he gets this time." I guess that's a way to look at it. Personally, I would love it if a couple of times things get turned on their sides, and Megatron just mops the floor with Prime and discards him (not necessarily kill him, but eliminate him somehow from the ongoing conflict). Would be a great way to give Megatron's capacity to be a serious threat a boost of credibility as well as for another character to get the spotlight. But like I said, that's almost exactly what happened in TF:TM and people lost their minds, and the result was Rodimus never had the chance to develop as a character because most fans despised him from the get-go. Now imagine if Prime died but Megatron never turned into Galvatron. Would Rodimus avenging Optimus by dealing with Megatron at the end of the movie have made the fans support him more? Yeah technically Galvatron was just Megatron in an upgraded body, but by the time season 3 got under way, that fact was lost on most people. And yes, I know it's all about selling new toys, but still, if Megatron had kept the name and had only slight changes to his appearance, even if Unicron's participation was the same, I think he would have been considered the winner of his conflict with Optimus, even though he still would have lost at the end of the movie. I would like to see a new story with something similar happening, instead of Optimus always winning, whether by an inch or a mile, because that is the truly boring part.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:16 am

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Rodimus Prime wrote:So by that train of thought, whenever a new TF story/continuity is introduced you guys get into it by thinking "I know Megatron won't win, but let's see how close he gets this time." I guess that's a way to look st it.
You could pretty much say that same overly-simplified sweeping generalization (sans the name "Megatron") about every story ever made that features good vs. evil.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby ZeroWolf » Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:57 am

Motto: "My past no longer binds my future..."
Weapon: Battle Blades
The only time evil will truly win is part one of a duology, a part 2 of s trilogy, on in Star Wars example parts 3 and 5 (in a certain point of view you can chalk the entire prequel trilogy as a bad guy win).

Also Aronjlove, Spider Man is only Peter Parker..
When he's not Miles Morales (or who ever the guy from the live action Japanese show was)
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Deadput » Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:34 am

Motto: "Let's kick the tires and light the fires!"
Weapon: Fusion Blaster Cannon
Exactly, and even the Star War prequel trilogy is dubious because it's exactly that...a prequel that got it's victory overturned in the end by the OT, so it wasn't permanent. (The Empire only ruled for like what 20 years?)

Many Autobots could die, the entire species could die (like in Regeneration 1), Optimus himself can and has (probably way too many times now) died but regardless Hasbro will never let the Decepticons win overall in any continuity, only exceptions may be comics (more likely to be a short one off series if anything) or an alternative continuity that gets briefly explored but even that doesn't count as an overall victory since it wouldn't be part of the main story.


If this wasn't a toy franchise associated with Hasbro the chances could be raised a tad for a different outcome but that's not what Transformers is.
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:30 am

Motto: "Guilty or Innocent?
Always Guilty..."
Weapon: Particle Beam Cannon
Going back to the Spider-Man comparison. The main difference being that Spider-Man isn't hard rebooted every 3-5 years. Plus, there has been actual plot progression for many years. In fact the one time Spider-Man's status quo was seriously reset, One More Day, it was universally reviled. Because unlike those in charge at the time, the fans didn't want to stick their heads in the sand and relive 60's Spider-Man forever. Which sounds oddly familiar :-?


Rodimus Prime wrote:Would be a great way to give Megatron's capacity to be a serious threat a boost of credibility as well as for another character to get the spotlight. But like I said, that's almost exactly what happened in TF:TM and people lost their minds, and the result was Rodimus never had the chance to develop as a character because most fans despised him from the get-go.


TF:TM was the only time Megatron was a credible threat in Sunbow. Prior to that he was in the same boat as MOTU Skeletor. Ineffective "evil".
The fair weather 80's fans have done more harm to the long term viability of Transformers than anyone else.
"I love Transformers!*" (*But only if it features these exact characters and no one new, forever).

The recount of that fight in the first comic book adaptation of TF:TM would probably have appeased the most of those fans. Megatron simply reached the gun first. Hot Rod didn't get there in time to do more than watch Prime die. (Also the name of Autobot City in that early script was "Fortress Maximus" :shock: )


Anyway, in spite of the characterisation misfires, Beast Machines was the last time in a main series the villain was allowed to win. Primal didn't overthrow the Vehicon Army or wrestle Cybertron from Megatron's grasp. He was on the run from start to finish. Effectively in the end, he killed himself and took Megatron with him. Of course that was pre-evergreen. When Transformers was allowed to be other things and go in different directions... >:oP
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Re: NETFLIX Transformers War for Cybertron Trilogy CARTOON Series Discussion

Postby Deadput » Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:00 am

Motto: "Let's kick the tires and light the fires!"
Weapon: Fusion Blaster Cannon
The more time passes the more I come to like Sunbow Megatron, his personality anyways.

He wasn't really a threat most of the time besides the movie because movie but there were times that I think he was actually pretty charming/charismatic in ways similar to Beast Wars Megatron (who is by far the best Megatron of course) but of course due to the nature of it being a Saturday morning cartoon he wasn't given much to work with besides to lose every episode (or the second half of a two parter) but at least he had the personality where it was somewhat fun to watch his side of things.

I think future Megatrons could benefit from having a less brooding personality since those have been the trend as of late, of course I just mean his personality and not necessarily his actions, you can do terrible things yet have a fun personality anyways.

I think a good Megatron backstory would be something similar to Sentinel from Animated, having been in a traumatic situation that shaped his views towards organic lifeforms, somewhat relatable but his actions would still not be acceptable despite his reasons, wouldn't be the sole cause of starting the Decepticons or anything but it would be an aspect for why he would stay and fight against Earth.
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